IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-12-15
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12:37:06 <andythenorth> Less Height Levels
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13:40:22 * andythenorth should report the ‘full animation’ bug
13:40:33 <andythenorth> black rectangles
13:41:42 * andythenorth should do many things :P
13:41:47 <andythenorth> like finish Squid
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16:01:31 <andythenorth> peter1138: “the path is clear” <- is there snow where you are then?
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16:33:01 <Belugas> ye yes yes!! here we do !! yes yes yes ! snow on the ground!
16:33:40 <dihedral> can any of you tell me what 'DirectMap2M' stands for in the output of /proc/meminfo?
16:36:15 <dihedral> hey Belugas how are you?
16:38:39 <Plaete> Belugas: *white flake down! white flake down!*
16:41:45 <Eddi|zuHause> why do always the most southern guys get the most snow?
16:43:16 <Alberth> it wouldn't have anything to do with not being around a large population and a lot of industry, would it?
16:44:15 <Eddi|zuHause> more about not being next to a warm body of water
16:46:25 <Eddi|zuHause> concentration of industry and population may change the temperature on the ground by 1 or 2 degrees, but that only means snow would melt easier, not that it won't fall
16:47:43 <Eddi|zuHause> and global climate change doesn't count into this either, because due to its globalness, it's not influenced by concentration of population and industry, just total number
16:54:02 * Belugas is doing fine, enjoying good coffee and warm seat :)
16:54:14 <Belugas> and how is doing dihedral?
16:54:21 <Belugas> and the others as well :)
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16:56:49 * andythenorth is daddy daycare
16:56:58 <andythenorth> although why we say that I don’t know
16:57:04 <andythenorth> nobody says mummy daycare
17:03:03 <Alberth> mummies don't care for days?
17:03:59 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what that actually means
17:08:08 <Eddi|zuHause> and wtf is smfw?
17:08:51 <andythenorth> and why did I read that problems thread?
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17:32:02 <andythenorth> cargo loading speeds are different for trains vs. rvs
17:32:41 <andythenorth> another thing to learn then forget
17:33:32 <V453000> how exactly different?
17:33:49 <andythenorth> cargo loaded every 40 ticks for trains, 20 ticks for RVs, 10 ticks for ships
17:34:08 <andythenorth> planes same as RVs
17:34:26 <andythenorth> so setting 20 as the prop value has quite different results in different places :P
17:34:53 <andythenorth> I never pay any attention to it in game, but I get enough reports to suggest that other people do
17:34:56 <V453000> so with 20, trains will load half the amoutn RVs will in the same time?4
17:35:50 <andythenorth> pitfalls for the unwary
17:35:54 * V453000 will remember that for when he makes a RV newGRF
17:36:07 <Alberth> it's just plain stupid imho
17:36:37 <V453000> I think it makes some sense, at least for RVs
17:36:54 <andythenorth> I’m just going to write code to set the props on each vehicle
17:36:58 <andythenorth> it’s a non-interesting property
17:37:09 <andythenorth> it makes no sense
17:37:20 <V453000> idk andy, loading speed is kind of important
17:37:31 <V453000> says how many stations you need to keep stuff saturated
17:37:42 <andythenorth> how do you know?
17:37:50 <V453000> if the RV loads fucklong, you need many stations
17:37:50 <Alberth> sure, but there is no reason to use 3 different units of measurement for 4 types of transport
17:37:53 <andythenorth> do you read the source code for grfs?
17:37:57 <V453000> if it drops shit quickly, you need 1/2
17:38:08 <V453000> no you dont, you see the effect in the game if your stuff is clogging XD
17:38:16 <V453000> I would say longer loading times for RVs are nice here
17:38:28 <V453000> yeah Alberth :) that probably sense makes not
17:38:54 <andythenorth> why use two factors where one is enough? (probably hysterical raisins)
17:39:27 <Alberth> probably the second was added because the first one was too fast
17:39:31 <V453000> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm me should make a RV set at some point
17:40:00 <V453000> also should finish NUTS
17:40:04 <V453000> also should create landscape set
17:40:08 <V453000> also should add YETI animations to YETI
17:40:40 <V453000> CATS stations, PURR tracks need doing, WETRAILS, pipeline grf, )
17:40:41 <Alberth> so many nice projects and such little time :(
17:40:55 <V453000> It will happen sooner or later :P
17:41:15 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> cargo loaded every 40 ticks for trains, 20 ticks for RVs, 10 ticks for ships <-- i never quite understood why this was introduced
17:41:17 <V453000> will attempt to get another train class done tonight
17:41:31 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it’s not just original TTD?
17:41:34 <Eddi|zuHause> it seems very arbitrary and pointless
17:41:42 <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: be careful you are currently agreeing with other people which include me :P
17:41:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, gradual loading was not in TTD
17:42:13 <Eddi|zuHause> it probably was a TTDPatch thing
17:42:24 <Alberth> V453000: you can delay some projects until 64bpp support :p
17:42:25 <andythenorth> looks oddly like a bitmask * 10
17:42:37 <V453000> Alberth: no thats fine XD but thanks
17:42:38 <andythenorth> anyway, maybe it was to allow huge ships
17:42:45 <V453000> Alberth: I will just re-render EVENTUALLY :P
17:42:50 <andythenorth> but fine grained trains
17:43:04 <andythenorth> probably someone looked up the exact flow rate of certain DB hoppers in 1956 and 1972
17:43:08 <V453000> must do ALL the projects immediately
17:43:09 <andythenorth> and needed to represent that
17:43:37 <Alberth> oh, that guy again :(
17:43:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i suspect a more technical issue, where the TTD internals that TTDPatch hooked into were accessed a different number of times
17:44:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: which makes this more like internal speed units
17:45:35 <andythenorth> anyway, I’m going to fix it in my sets
17:45:49 <andythenorth> more or less normalised
17:46:26 <andythenorth> e.g. all tankers will load a bit faster than all general cargo vehicles
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17:57:01 <jonty-comp> I believe sips and lewis are going to play openttd on yogscast live soon
17:57:13 <jonty-comp> might wanna spool up some extra servers for the website :p
18:16:08 * andythenorth wonders exactly where they live
18:16:15 <andythenorth> fair chance it’s about 2 miles from here
18:16:21 <andythenorth> maybe I could go round and play with them :P
18:19:18 <andythenorth> V453000: so what loading speed should I set?
18:19:33 <andythenorth> or rather, how many ticks to unload, say 30t of cargo?
18:19:48 * andythenorth is so little interested in the actual amounts :P
18:20:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'm sure they appreciate random internet people showing up on their doorstep
18:20:34 <andythenorth> I bet that never happens at all
18:20:45 * andythenorth is doing the English lying thing
18:20:57 <andythenorth> can hg do externals?
18:21:00 <andythenorth> like git remotes?
18:21:14 <andythenorth> seems I have some constants that are shared between all my newgrfs
18:21:35 <andythenorth> I could curl them from a url at compile time, but that is a terrible idea
18:23:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure there is a hg extension for that
18:23:46 <jonty-comp> they are currently complimenting the main menu
18:24:29 <andythenorth> jonty-comp: are they using vanilla ottd?
18:25:06 <jonty-comp> "that's what I love most about OTTD, the smooth jazzy music in the background"
18:25:19 <jonty-comp> going for arctic since it's xmas
18:26:58 <jonty-comp> they've already learned the theme music to hum
18:27:03 <andythenorth> anyone used hg subrepos?
18:27:12 <andythenorth> are they as terrible as git suprepos?
18:28:53 <jonty-comp> and of course they're all called Player except sips, who actually knows how to play the game
18:29:47 <jonty-comp> openttd really fails at compression when it comes to games like ottd :(
18:30:18 <Alberth> andythenorth: there are a few projects with subrepos
18:30:30 <Alberth> zbase and opengfx-mars at least
18:31:04 <Alberth> I have no idea how it compares to git, as git has inifinite terribliness for me
18:34:49 <jonty-comp> "my 1080p UI is so small i can't see it"
18:35:25 <andythenorth> he needs extra zoom
18:35:55 <Jinassi> tell him to download zBase then, big menu by default
18:36:36 <jonty-comp> the main streamers have zBase by the looks of it
18:36:57 <jonty-comp> although someone in the stream chat pointed out that the train/bus/ship/plane icons are still small :p
18:48:21 <andythenorth> Iron Horse has a vehicle capacity parameter
18:48:30 <andythenorth> should I normalise loading speeds against that, or ignore it?
19:00:23 <Alberth> capacities don't differ that much?
19:00:42 <Alberth> then it makes no difference what you do :)
19:05:01 <andythenorth> I have to choose something
19:05:06 <andythenorth> doing nothing is less code
19:05:22 * andythenorth chooses less code
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19:31:08 <jonty-comp> aaaand they all fail at signalling again
19:40:28 <SpComb> yeah, all the tiny fonts, they
19:40:35 <SpComb> yeah, all the tiny fonts, they're not viewer-friendly :P
19:41:32 <andythenorth> I’m going to normalise all vehicles to unload in same time, regardless of capacity
19:41:56 <andythenorth> should that be 120 ticks (matching default RVs), or 240 ticks (matching default trains)?
19:48:31 <Wolf01> wow, I just read some topics on ottd problems... when we let the cages open?
19:49:30 <Rubidium> lets assume a tile is ~350 meter, with radius 3 for bus stops that would mean walking up to 1 km to a bus stop (seems reasonable limit). Given the distance based on speed you'd have about a factor 2000 between that assumption of 350m and the 700 km the tile is wide. This means doing the same on the ticks at the station; 120 ticks -> 1.6 days -> (divide by factor of 2000) 70 seconds
19:50:13 <Rubidium> 70 seconds seems to short for a busy-ish bus stop and definitely a train stop, so I'd go for 240 to keep it "real" (whatever weak form of real it is)
19:56:12 <andythenorth> “doesn’t feel too different to default vehicles” is close enough to ‘real’ for me :)
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19:56:36 <andythenorth> mind, it’s still 240 for 30t or 120t
19:56:42 <andythenorth> because I’m normalising
19:57:03 <andythenorth> 4 forklifts instead of 1, if realism matters :P
19:59:08 <SpComb> and such click-click-click-click to build railways when failing to use the autorail tool or hotkeys :(
20:02:49 <Alberth> practicing for Locomotion :)
20:03:54 <SpComb> but the seek-time of having to mouse over to the different kind of rail button, place a corner or two, then back for a different rail, etc etc
20:04:16 * andythenorth is playing Worms 2
20:04:24 * andythenorth never plays games
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20:07:26 <Jinassi> SpCOmb: Filler to increase gameplay time, but still keep viewers attention.
20:08:03 <Jinassi> a second here and there and it ends up a few minutes more at the end
20:08:35 <Jinassi> or they're just dumb and have not prepared for this. at. all.
20:09:04 <SpComb> openttd - serious business
20:09:16 <SpComb> not for the unprepared player :P
20:11:39 <Alberth> they play it like the original :p
20:26:25 <jonty-comp> that's becaise they're both old enough to have grown up with the original
20:27:11 <jonty-comp> and probably haven't played it since the last time fans asked them too
20:27:15 <Jinassi> they need some proper competition, for viewers to start rioting.
20:27:25 <Jinassi> or throwing cash at them
20:35:29 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> should I normalise loading speeds against that, or ignore it? <-- yes, loading speed should be scaled to capacity
20:38:48 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: inversely maybe?
20:39:21 <Rubidium> a S-Bahn wagon holds way more passengers than an ICE wagon, but the S-Bahn wagon loads and unloads significantly faster that the ICE wagon
20:39:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: the "units per loading step" should have the same multiplier as the capacity
20:40:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i'm assuming we're talking about the same (cargo) wagon that has a multiplier depending on parameter
20:40:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: not a local/long distance difference
20:42:36 <SpComb> oh wow, he started using the autorail tool!
20:43:14 <SpComb> okay, he got confused and gave up
20:43:16 <Eddi|zuHause> am i the only one here not watching?
20:43:23 <sigtau> Anyone know where I can find plugins/mods for a dedicated server that allow for things like bridging ingame chat with an IRC channel?
20:43:46 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: oh... you replied to something from way way before I made a reply to andy; that's why I was a bit confused
20:43:54 <Eddi|zuHause> sigtau: there are some tools for the admin port
20:44:14 <sigtau> Do you have a link? I'm not entirely sure what I should be googling for
20:44:32 <Rubidium> but yes-ish... loading time should be constant, loading amount should be 240 / loading time
20:45:29 <Eddi|zuHause> sigtau: i have no links ready
20:45:40 <sigtau> hmm. Not even a search query? :p
20:45:43 <Eddi|zuHause> but googling for "admin port" should do
20:46:13 <Eddi|zuHause> stuff should be on the wiki
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21:21:16 <andythenorth> ok so I’m normalising default loading time to 240 ticks regardless of capacity
21:21:31 <andythenorth> now some types will need a factor for faster (or slower?) loading
21:21:54 * andythenorth wonders how to express that, probably a float, then round the result
21:22:27 <Eddi|zuHause> 240 is 6 loading steps (6*40)
21:22:42 <Eddi|zuHause> if your standard capacity is 30, then each loading step is 5
21:23:04 <Eddi|zuHause> so slower loading would be 4, and faster 6
21:23:18 <Eddi|zuHause> that multiplied with the capacity multiplicator
21:23:30 <Eddi|zuHause> you can also put faster at 8
21:23:51 <Eddi|zuHause> 4=8 steps, 5=6 steps, 6=5 steps, 8=4 steps
21:24:11 <Eddi|zuHause> floats are unnecessary
21:24:27 <andythenorth> useful thanks, question was more how I express the modifier in the python that defines a vehicle
21:24:39 <andythenorth> e.g. 1.1 * default or whatever
21:24:55 <andythenorth> multiplier or addition
21:25:28 <Eddi|zuHause> use this list: [4,5,6,8,10]
21:25:57 <Eddi|zuHause> don't screw with float multiplication, there will be corner cases that are tricky to resolve
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21:26:20 <glx> yeah lookup table is often easier
21:27:06 <Eddi|zuHause> you need a lookup table for each capacity
21:27:20 <andythenorth> that is interesting
21:28:37 <andythenorth> can they be generated?
21:29:26 <Eddi|zuHause> [roundup(capacity/steps) for steps in [8,6,5,4,3]]
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21:30:15 <andythenorth> if the look up table can be generated, the same algorithm can just provide the result directly?
21:30:35 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly, but separating this may make it easier to see what's going on
21:30:49 <glx> and it's faster to compute only once
21:31:14 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, assuming you have lots of wagons with the same capacity
21:33:14 <andythenorth> seems my docs don’t print the capacity
21:33:29 <Eddi|zuHause> that seems like an oversight
21:34:19 <andythenorth> oh it’s because of edge cases
21:34:31 <andythenorth> there’s no meaningful single capacity
21:34:55 <andythenorth> varies by parameter, also multiple cargos on an articulated consist
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21:40:21 <andythenorth> ok normalising loading speeds is a much bigger task than I thought :)
21:40:31 <andythenorth> thought it was just a quick formula
21:47:44 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it would be a fairly simple task in CETS...
21:48:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really know how screwed up your codebase is
21:48:24 <andythenorth> about the usual amount
21:48:33 <andythenorth> but first I have to fix the docs
21:48:46 <Eddi|zuHause> mind that integer-/ is usually rounding down, but you want rounding up
21:48:47 <andythenorth> and then generate look up tables for every possible capacity
21:48:59 <andythenorth> and handle that for trailing parts that have capacity
21:49:08 <andythenorth> and capacities that vary by cargo type
21:49:27 <andythenorth> is loading_speed even a cb property?
21:49:33 <Eddi|zuHause> why special case the articulated parts?
21:50:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you need a callback, if it only depends on static properties and parameters
21:50:39 <andythenorth> how to handle change of refit?
21:50:44 <andythenorth> I don’t *want* a cb :P
21:51:04 <Eddi|zuHause> well if capacity is a callback, then load speed must be, too.
21:51:09 <andythenorth> 20t supplies = 40 bags of mail or whatever
21:51:46 <andythenorth> could also get filed under, “who cares?"
21:52:36 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, callback is really not any more complicated than property...
21:52:51 <andythenorth> nah, just more code to write
21:53:01 <andythenorth> a 10 minute piece of code is now much more
21:53:04 <Eddi|zuHause> just duplicate all the switches you have for capacity
21:55:35 <andythenorth> less work than manually setting all loading speeds
21:55:44 <andythenorth> and still that wouldn’t catch the changing capacity issue
22:03:38 * andythenorth looks for a codeless code about small tasks
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