IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-12-14
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09:17:33 * andythenorth learns about predicates
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09:32:05 <Supercheese> a predicate predicament?
09:32:26 <andythenorth> just curious what they were
09:32:31 <andythenorth> now I know what I don’t know
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09:37:19 <andythenorth> is there a var for ‘date cargo was loaded on this vehicle’?
09:38:54 <planetmaker> andythenorth, no, there isn't
09:39:26 <Supercheese> according to the internals there is
09:39:35 <Supercheese> 547F2 [80][352*x] Vehicle array
09:39:42 <Supercheese> 3F B Cargo transit time, in +185 ticks (~2.5 days) units
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09:40:01 <Supercheese> although hmm that is not date
09:42:16 <andythenorth> all the steam tractor loads will turn into diesel tractors in 1910
09:42:40 <andythenorth> even while the train is moving :)
09:49:17 <andythenorth> maybe I could advance the animation frame when visiting a station after 1910
09:49:28 <andythenorth> I think TMWFTLB might apply
09:50:31 <Supercheese> acceptable bug is acceptable
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10:12:25 <planetmaker> Supercheese, those are internals of ttdpatch which often don't work with OpenTTD
10:12:50 <planetmaker> andythenorth, last service date
10:13:12 <andythenorth> planetmaker: thought of that
10:13:18 <andythenorth> but disabled breakdowns innit
10:14:55 <Alberth> ha, breakdowns are unreliable, even when switched off :p
10:15:29 <andythenorth> I think the message here is that I’ve added a bad feature
10:15:38 <andythenorth> date-sensitive cargo is not good
10:15:59 <andythenorth> usually fighting the game is a sign of that
10:16:12 <planetmaker> andythenorth, on the other hand: it doesn't hurt if it's unreliable: the worst which can happen is that it looks like now. The best is that you have date-dependent graphics
10:16:57 <planetmaker> but of course, you'll get the bug report, that the cargo changed after a depot visit ;)
10:17:17 <andythenorth> or that steam tractors are show in 1960
10:17:22 <andythenorth> because no depot visit
10:18:24 <andythenorth> i’ts a bad feature, I should just use crates
10:18:40 * andythenorth has typing shame, I should go back to bed
10:20:40 <planetmaker> I'm pretty sure that steam trucks in 2015 are nicer than crates :)
10:20:43 <Alberth> fighting the game only means there is no proper solution for something
10:21:37 <andythenorth> afaict the solution is to a var for when cargo was loaded
10:21:54 <andythenorth> again, I can’t type, wtf is going on
10:22:17 <Alberth> no worries, I didn't notice :)
10:26:08 <andythenorth> presumably we know the cargo age, because the profit calculation needs it
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10:31:21 <Alberth> there is something called days_in_transit
10:32:22 <andythenorth> ah, that’s going to be independent of current date
10:34:30 <Alberth> I am not sure why that solution was chosen, probably there are subtleties in the payment calculation
10:34:49 <andythenorth> probably the easiest for the payment
10:34:58 <Alberth> it can also be a matter of memory storage, date is probably bigger than a day count
10:35:02 <andythenorth> avoids subtracting current date and cargo loaded date
10:36:04 <Alberth> with transfers and cargo laying at stations, it's probably more complicated than end_date - start_date
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10:50:36 <andythenorth> also not simple for vehicles
10:51:10 <andythenorth> for similar reason
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11:23:03 <andythenorth> so what do you all do for futuristic trains then?
11:23:23 <andythenorth> NUTS covers all bases?
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11:32:01 <Alberth> everybody does mono/maglev, isn't it?
11:32:49 <andythenorth> I kind of what to add one to Iron Horse
11:32:54 <andythenorth> but I never play past about 2010
11:33:01 <Alberth> nuts does it nicely in not really forcing people to switch
11:33:16 <NGC3982> Me too. I hardly ever exceed 1990.
11:33:37 * andythenorth considers monorail for 1960s
11:33:41 <andythenorth> alternative history thing
11:34:11 <peter1138> What's alternative about that?
11:35:19 <Alberth> woow, that stays on the track? :)
11:35:42 <Alberth> it looks like it would tip over any moment :)
11:36:19 <andythenorth> considered that already
11:36:28 <andythenorth> can’t turn left though
11:36:48 <Alberth> nice constraint for the path finder :p
11:38:05 <NGC3982> That seems to have a both upper and lower support.
11:41:50 <andythenorth> best not to drive off a non-aligned switch
11:42:13 <NGC3982> I'm bored with OpenTTD again. Haven't played with NUTS for some time, but I don't feel that eager to either.
11:42:20 <andythenorth> you need game scripts
11:42:26 <andythenorth> but no fucker will make them :D
11:42:51 <andythenorth> maybe monorail is urban rapid transit, rather than high speed inter-city
11:42:59 <andythenorth> but then the road crossings suck
11:43:45 <NGC3982> Isn't there a big nice pack for early urban inter-city monorail already?
11:44:07 <andythenorth> for Iron Horse there would only be one or two trains
11:44:09 <NGC3982> Something-something British.
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11:44:19 <andythenorth> if I can steal them from somewhere else, I would be happy
11:44:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: make the rail sink into the road if it's not reserved
11:44:33 <peter1138> That implies you're happy mixing up millions of sets and having no consistency...
11:45:47 <andythenorth> peter1138: yes indeed
11:45:51 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that is a nice idea
11:46:26 <peter1138> Animated level-crossings?
11:46:53 <NGC3982> Bah. Installed zBase to refresh my view. Noticed I need a new computer :(
11:47:56 <peter1138> Only difference I noted was everything becomes ugly.
11:49:29 <Eddi|zuHause> if everything is slow after using zBase, try increasing the sprite cache size
11:53:15 <NGC3982> Oh. I'll try it. Thanks.
11:55:04 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so (never done railtypes), that would be use the reservation overlay to draw the rail? Otherwise empty sprite?
12:00:47 <peter1138> Uh, why would Windows Media Player fail to list most songs (apart from 10) from my DLNA share? :S
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12:39:16 <dreck> do any of you know if the 'opengfx biggui' thing can't be disabled player-wise? (its on a multiplayer game yeah)
12:41:53 <planetmaker> hi dreck: no newgrf can be disabled, if required by the server
12:42:03 <frosch123> you could try digging up an ancient version of opengfx-gui (some prelimiary newgrf from 2006, before opengfx baseset was a thing), and load it as static newgrf
12:42:05 <planetmaker> however, it's bad style from the server to require ogfx+biggui
12:42:12 <dreck> planetmaker then you would had though tthe grf would disable itself in such setting
12:42:17 <dreck> and yeah bad indeed :->
12:42:50 <planetmaker> dreck, why would the grf disable itself? And how? It doesn't know it's on a server. There's no difference between MP and SP games
12:42:55 <dreck> it makes the menu looks quite squished up ... and thats not counting the advanced setting menu being a little...squeezed too
12:43:08 <dreck> dunno what its real purpose seem to be
12:43:19 <planetmaker> bigger GUI like its name suggests?
12:43:45 <dreck> except that its not really any bigger..its just making the clickable surface smaller on the contrast
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12:52:32 <peter1138> You're still strange.
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17:06:15 <Alberth> /me pictures a monorail for moving livestock :p
17:10:28 <andythenorth> I found some for slaughterhouses
17:10:32 <andythenorth> not nice pictures
17:12:23 <Alberth> anything heavy enough gets moved in this way, cars move that way too in the factory when being assembled
17:13:40 <Alberth> I do like the first 2 pictures, a nice temporary portable mono rail system for moving things at a site
17:14:04 <andythenorth> dunno if it fits ttd though :)
17:15:28 <Alberth> at least it's different from the usual mono rail solution, and it fits in an earlier time period
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17:21:09 <Eddi|zuHause> somehow a sentence starting with "Andy certainly knows better than anybody else" makes me cringe
17:22:53 * andythenorth now avoiding that thread
17:23:34 <andythenorth> maybe Brit roster of iron horse just has no futuristic thing
17:23:48 <andythenorth> I*could* do a boring 186mph high-speed-1 Eurostar thing
17:23:54 <andythenorth> but eh, it’s been done, and it’s boring
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17:25:21 <andythenorth> maybe Brit roster really is “done"
17:25:55 <andythenorth> design creep and perfectionism is why Full FIRS is so terrible to play
17:45:26 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27082 trunk/src/lang/lithuanian.txt (2014-12-14 17:45:22 UTC)
17:45:27 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:29 <DorpsGek> lithuanian - 4 changes by Stabilitronas
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17:54:48 <smeding_> hi guys! i'm contemplating trying to integrate a more interesting economic model into openttd as a fun programming project
17:54:51 *** smeding_ is now known as smeding
17:55:10 <smeding> so i was wonder if people know about other attempts, or if people have specific gripes with the current model
17:59:42 <Alberth> the forum is full with such people
18:00:16 <smeding> people who have gripes, or people who are tackling them? :)
18:00:18 <Alberth> although usually it ends with just exchanging personal wish lists
18:00:41 <smeding> well, i'm looking for wish lists, basically
18:01:19 <Alberth> look in OpenTTD suggestions or OpenTTD problems, depending on how bad you think it is :)
18:01:27 <smeding> yeah, taking a look, thanks
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18:02:44 <Alberth> I don't think you will find something of a global model that works for many people, at best it seems replacement of one random model for another one
18:02:57 <smeding> oh, sure, i'm sure people would have complaints about mine
18:03:19 <smeding> i'm doing this mostly for me.. but it seems useful to look at what other people have said on the matter
18:03:23 <Alberth> OpenTTD is played in many different ways, with different ideas and requirement for the economic model
18:03:53 <Sylf> up to and including ignoring economic models entirely :)
18:04:09 <smeding> currently there just doesn't seem to be much choice
18:04:50 <smeding> so if nothing else, it seems worth trying for that reason
18:05:09 <Alberth> tbh I think there is no solution
18:05:45 <Alberth> if you lend money to set up a company, you need to make more money than you pay, to survive
18:06:03 <Alberth> if you do, you can invest that money to make more money
18:06:37 <Alberth> this grows exponentially, so inevitably you will get insane amounts of money if you play long enough
18:06:39 <smeding> yes, but what i usually find happening is that i set up a lucrative few lines or something, and it ends up being very easy to do anything i want after that
18:07:23 <smeding> i'm thinking about tackling this in a few ways... the ideas haven't solidified yet, but one thing i'm thinking of is something like dynamic inflation
18:07:39 <smeding> economics isn't my strong suit, so i've got some reading to do
18:08:21 <Alberth> the goal is that it should increase gaming fun
18:08:38 <smeding> yeah, but that's different for everyone
18:08:47 <Alberth> many people confuse OpenTTD to be a simulation, and try to push real-world ideas into it
18:08:52 <smeding> so basically i think this would make it more fun for me
18:09:28 <Alberth> you know about basecost grfs, and game scripts?
18:09:59 <smeding> yes, and i'm not sure that's enough to effect the improvements i think can be made for my personal case
18:10:23 <Alberth> the CashDrain script comes to mind
18:10:24 <smeding> fwiw, i'm not thinking about pushing to integrate this into openttd trunk really, let alone pushing to use it as a default model
18:10:57 <smeding> all in all, i'm aiming to solve two "problems" that i have personally
18:11:17 <smeding> 1. it seems like it can get rather easy in ways that seem a bit unrealistic to me
18:11:26 <smeding> 2. i'm looking for an interesting programming project
18:11:44 <smeding> that's all. i feel like you're trying to defend the current system but this is not intended as a global replacement
18:11:58 <Alberth> there is a large group of people that likes a more difficult model, the problem is that they don't agree on how to do that
18:12:21 <smeding> yes, and my solution to that is to just try doing what i think would be interesting. i've found a few other people who seem willing to contribute
18:12:48 <Alberth> write a patch, let people play with it in a patch pack etc
18:13:01 <smeding> i'm still writing up some notes, so i thought i'd wander in here and see if anyone has something where they say "this really bugs me about the current model"
18:13:16 <smeding> or "people tried this thing and it worked/didn't work for xyz reasons"
18:13:44 <Alberth> I think most people here don't play the game very often :)
18:13:46 <smeding> always good to have some more inspiration
18:14:09 <smeding> hehe. i go back and forth. i recently got into it again, but now the idea of adding some code of my own frankly seems a bit more fun
18:15:03 <Alberth> economic model is a BIG topic, try to structure things, so you can place requests at parts of the model
18:15:22 <Alberth> or it all becomes one big messy heap of stuff
18:15:32 <smeding> well, i agree with what you said before -- this is very subjective -- so i was thinking of not placing requests with anyone but myself
18:15:36 <smeding> but i'm taking notes first, yes
18:16:57 <Sylf> if you can come up with an economic model framework, where people can plug in their own game script/settings to, might actually gain some popularity
18:16:58 <Alberth> subjective is fine, in the ideal case, you can tweak the model by adding knobs at various places in the code
18:17:36 <smeding> Alberth: i'm definitely aiming to add a lot of twiddleable factors
18:17:54 <planetmaker> Alberth, eventually your money will grow linearily: you cannot expand exponentially fast, thus your income increases with your construction speed :)
18:17:56 <smeding> Sylf: i suppose i could try to implement it modularly, though i don't think it's worthwhile to try to integrate scripting or something
18:18:20 <planetmaker> s/money/increase in money/
18:18:53 <Sylf> it might just mean making AI/GS API available
18:19:05 <Alberth> planetmaker: fair enough, but at that point speed of growth is non-relevant :p
18:20:59 <Alberth> Sylf: interfering in eg payments should be done in C++ code, as there are many such transactions, more than a script can handle. the API should be a higher level policy API thus, eg 50% payment for X, 150% payment for Y, etc
18:21:14 <planetmaker> it totally is irrelevant then, yes :)
18:21:27 <planetmaker> I just felt like being pointlessly pedantic :P
18:21:57 <Alberth> instead I just hire you to increase my building speed :p
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18:22:15 <planetmaker> haha :) that just increases the slope but not the function :)
18:22:33 <Alberth> It feels like one of those "clicker" games that also grow exponentially in every direction :p
18:25:16 <smeding> what sources of documentation are there for the code? i found the doxygen and the OpenTTDDevBlackBook stuff on the wiki, is there anything else?
18:25:25 <Alberth> smeding: The only reason why I defend the current model is because I haven't seen anything better yet. Note that my goal is just build network, so the model fails for me in the beginning when I have to wait for money :)
18:25:49 <Alberth> doxygen and the code is the best
18:26:04 <Alberth> blackbook stuff is probably very much outdated
18:26:18 <smeding> well, looks like it doesn't contain what i was looking for anyway
18:26:21 <Alberth> you can also ask here
18:26:36 <smeding> a description of how things currently work and what happens where in the code wrt e.g. towns
18:26:58 <planetmaker> also our forums are a good place to ask
18:27:08 <Alberth> OpenTTD has > 300K lines of code
18:27:27 <planetmaker> the code has pretty good comments. A book would basically duplicate that :)
18:27:44 <smeding> well, some pointers would be nice, but yes, the code looks decently documented
18:28:11 <planetmaker> it helps to grep the whole code for what you search. And then go from what turns up :)
18:28:52 <planetmaker> that works reasonably fast and usually sufficiently little iterations are needed to end up where the interesting stuff happens
18:28:53 <Alberth> smeding: you'll have to be more specific in what you are looking for
18:29:22 <smeding> Alberth: i'll be more specific when i'm not just asking about sources of documentation :P
18:29:48 <planetmaker> also, our wiki explains in the game concepts section pretty well how the game works
18:29:59 <planetmaker> so if it's about how things should work, that's a good place, too
18:30:13 <planetmaker> (though the code is authorative, the wiki is not)
18:30:36 <smeding> i'm just trying to find some bits of the code, e.g. how the town decides to place buildings, and the state each town keeps and such
18:30:52 <smeding> but i'm just poking through the code by myself now
18:30:55 <andythenorth> smeding: the biggest single gripe I’ve seen in forums recently is how payment is related to distance
18:31:01 <Alberth> CommandCost is pretty basic in the econominc model, but it's throughout the code
18:31:03 <andythenorth> which imho is done correctly currently
18:31:32 <andythenorth> the other thing that bugs ~many people is ‘the money problem’ you described earlier -> succesful company prints money
18:31:56 <Alberth> smeding: src/town_cmd.cpp:184:static bool BuildTownHouse(Town *t, TileIndex tile); ?
18:32:17 <smeding> Alberth: yeah grep told me that what i was looking for there was in town_cmd.cpp :)
18:32:40 <Alberth> the _cmd files handle the game actions
18:32:48 <smeding> although TileLoop_Town looks more specific to what i was trying to find
18:32:57 <smeding> anyway it's all good, i think i'll manage on my own for now :)
18:33:43 <Alberth> andythenorth: we need a money printing factory :p
18:33:47 <smeding> i just need to build a model in my head for what the bits are and how they work together
18:33:59 <smeding> the tile loop thing seems like it'd play a big role here
18:34:22 <Alberth> it's the loop for continuously uipdating things in the background
18:34:56 <planetmaker> smeding, the tile loop only calls the actual functions which do stuff
18:35:31 <andythenorth> at the economy level, I have thought about it now and then over many years :P
18:35:37 <andythenorth> and the only two suggestions I have are:
18:35:47 <andythenorth> - progressive, punitive taxation
18:36:26 <Alberth> increase inflation level? :)
18:36:27 <andythenorth> - supply & demand based payment model (Railroad Tycoon 3 did this). Each tile has a demand function, and if the demand is satisfied price starts to fall for delivered cargo
18:36:43 <smeding> andythenorth: i'm thinking about the latter :)
18:37:08 <smeding> andythenorth: my general idea is also to just model a bit more stuff
18:37:26 <andythenorth> there’s already a newgrf custom payment cb
18:37:34 <andythenorth> and prices per cargo could be stored per town iirc
18:37:50 <andythenorth> so at minimum, town-based supply and demand should be doable with reasonable effort
18:38:00 <andythenorth> maybe not touching the game C++ code much at all
18:38:34 <smeding> andythenorth: one idea i have is tracking how much money each town has tied up in several things -- wealth of the population, business holdings and government budget maybe
18:39:05 <planetmaker> write a game script then, smeding
18:39:38 <planetmaker> and if some info is lacking, patch the GS API so that it becomes viable via game script
18:39:45 <smeding> that's also a possibility
18:39:52 <smeding> i haven't looked into the game scripts much
18:40:01 <smeding> the only one i tried kept pausing the game to do its calculation
18:40:31 <planetmaker> instead of having too many economy models, it's better to outsource that to a script so that everyone can do whatever s/he wants
18:40:36 <planetmaker> without messing with the core
18:41:37 <smeding> i guess that works too
18:44:38 <Alberth> the interesting part would be figuring out if you can have a script set a policy, with some C++ code that handles the actual transactions
18:44:47 <smeding> a policy in what sense?
18:45:33 <Alberth> amount of payment to the user, for example
18:46:20 <Alberth> you cannot ask the script what to do eg for every ton of cargo transported
18:47:15 <Alberth> so you have to set a policy for payment at a higher level, like coal 50%, and food 120%
18:47:52 <smeding> well, i'm more interested in what andythenorth said, which is base things far more on supply and demand -- so the payment rate would vary depending on where it happened
18:48:03 <Alberth> or if you have destinations in mind, coal from X pays 10%
18:48:46 <smeding> i think that would have to get pretty granular to support what i have in mind
18:48:46 <Alberth> or coal to X, of course
18:49:17 <smeding> "coal to x pays this amount, so long as it's under the limit of what the power plant can process"
18:49:18 <Alberth> one level higher would be something like "this tile 'eats' X tonnes / month"
18:50:39 <smeding> it seems a bit difficult to capture in general terms, but i need to look at how things work more
18:50:53 <Alberth> you may want to play with ECS industry set, which does stockpiling
18:51:28 <Alberth> I agree, the policy problem comes later
18:51:31 <smeding> one thing to note is that i don't have 100% 'done' ideas yet
18:52:05 <Alberth> I don't think anyone has those, unless you mean the current model :p
18:52:28 <smeding> well, i mean it's not just a matter of "i need the game to do this" and we can find the best way to accomplish that
18:52:37 <andythenorth> storing a demand factor, per-cargo, per-tile would be useful
18:52:43 <andythenorth> 0-15 would be enough
18:52:55 <andythenorth> unless it’s powers of 2
18:53:04 <smeding> in general what i'd like to be able to do is track and calculate a lot of things
18:53:20 <Alberth> smeding: yeah, that's how economy is big and complicated, there are so many ways to change things
18:53:22 <smeding> i'm not sure what the performance of Squirrel is like, the game script i've used before seemed a bit slow
18:53:44 * andythenorth dunno if it’s wise storing a demand factor 64 cargos, per tile on a 4096x4096 map
18:53:53 <andythenorth> 64 bytes per tile
18:53:56 <smeding> and looking at its code (it's "balanced city growth" from the downloads menu)
18:54:16 <smeding> andythenorth: well, what was thinking of is calculating it for a town
18:54:28 <smeding> andythenorth: and that's just for passengers or mail
18:54:43 <smeding> and goods and anything else town buildings might accept -- not 64 anyway
18:55:58 <smeding> so basically, simplify by saying that once someone is in a town, they can get anywhere in the town if they want -- covering the town better just means they can do so more easily
18:56:20 <smeding> andythenorth: and calculating how much other cargoes are needed per industry that accepts that cargo
18:57:57 <andythenorth> trying to do anything with industry is pretty game-overed, if you want to respect newgrf
18:58:03 <andythenorth> if you don’t care, then… :)
19:01:38 <smeding> yeah industry would need to change too
19:01:47 <smeding> but there's possibilities there i think
19:02:02 <smeding> i mean the industry newgrfs. maybe the other ones too
19:02:32 <smeding> i think the other stuff would mostly tie into the economy through base costs? that seems pretty adaptable to other systems
19:02:40 <smeding> just a relative measure of how expensive things are
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19:07:54 <andythenorth> are base costs exposed to GS currently
19:07:57 <andythenorth> docs would tell me :P
19:11:30 <smeding> hmmm, is there a sort of callback model between GS and the C++ code?
19:11:46 <smeding> that seems like one of the better ways to go if you want to handle things like economy
19:12:10 <smeding> something to the effect of "hey, call this when cargo is delivered so we can compute how much it should make the player"
19:17:01 <Alberth> that will fail with a few hundred trains already, let alone say a 1000
19:17:44 <Alberth> ie a MP game with 15 companies
19:18:02 <Alberth> well, you can hit the CPU limit with trains currently
19:18:31 <Alberth> any time you use for calculations immediately translates to less trains driving around
19:18:43 <andythenorth> afaik GS is turn-based, no cbs
19:18:50 <andythenorth> but I haven’t written any, so eh
19:19:08 <smeding> yeah, it looked that way
19:19:11 <Alberth> for SP it's not a problem perhaps, but in MP where your patch would be popular...
19:19:56 <Alberth> but you first need to decide what to change :)
19:20:00 <smeding> Alberth: i'm not sure what the best way to do it is... sounds like we're back to my idea of just branching off, and possibly making it a selectable option
19:20:26 <andythenorth> providing a pluggable economy is definitely needing branching ottd
19:20:30 <Alberth> yeah, just make a patch, and see how you and others like it
19:20:47 <andythenorth> mucking about with the economy for entertainment can be done without touching ottd at all
19:44:01 <Alberth> hmm, original map generator produces really ugly maps :p
19:46:19 <andythenorth> they’re quite special
19:49:04 <Alberth> yeah, I should play one, I haven't done that ever since I started playing with OpenTTD
19:51:41 <frosch123> Alberth: make sure to use original graphics then, not opengfx
19:52:55 <frosch123> i don't think people spent too much time on the mapgen sprites in ogfx :)
19:52:58 <peter1138> And make sure height levels is 15.
19:53:44 <andythenorth> original map gen is rubbish
19:53:50 <andythenorth> but has a nostalgia value
19:54:15 <frosch123> andythenorth: now fillled up with barrels of nuclear waste?
19:54:38 <andythenorth> also imho original map gen makes for better route building
19:54:42 <andythenorth> even if it looks terrible
19:55:15 <andythenorth> tends to produce benches on mountains
19:55:20 <andythenorth> and buildable valleys
19:56:21 <andythenorth> TGP looks a bit less silly but is a PITA to actually build on
20:08:36 <andythenorth> so which rendering app is de-rigeur these days?
20:08:45 <andythenorth> please don’t tell me sketchup :(
20:17:27 <andythenorth> it’s just 2 cones and a cylinder, but I don’t have all the lighting rig and camera and all the 3D crap :)
20:19:16 <Alberth> too many weird sites referenced from that one
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21:19:16 <andythenorth> didn’t know they’d do that
21:20:04 <Alberth> plenty of space everywhere, and they clutter together :)
21:22:50 <andythenorth> someone should fix FIRS
21:24:25 <frosch123> call your next grf FOB :)
21:25:43 <andythenorth> the next one will be pipes
21:25:49 <andythenorth> pipes can be full of bugs :P
21:26:35 <Alberth> PWB (pipes with bugs)
21:27:23 * andythenorth is having newgrf finishing motivation issues
21:27:32 <andythenorth> anyone written a new GS yet?
21:27:37 <andythenorth> other than CashDrain?
21:29:52 <Alberth> you have a nice idea?
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