IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-11-30
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09:55:14 <Wolf01> pfff one submits a MOC of a SDF-1 and the visits of the profile are multiplied by 20
09:59:52 <Alberth> no idea what that means :)
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10:02:28 <Wolf01> yeah, the picture is the best one I ever made
10:02:35 <Alberth> it comes with building instructions even
10:04:07 <Alberth> your earlier lunch-breaker has very good colour use
10:04:30 <Wolf01> I had only those pieces at the time
10:04:41 <Wolf01> now the office is full of lego :P
10:05:27 <Alberth> the background makes a lot of difference, perhaps
10:06:02 <Wolf01> yes it does, I'm thinking of adding a bg to the old MOCs
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10:51:31 <fixpoint> Hi! I'm trying OpenTTD again after a long break, and I have a question. Am I supposed to use path signals everywhere now?
10:52:53 <V453000> no but noobs will tell you that :)
10:53:20 <V453000> you should use all kinds of signals in the right places
10:53:28 <b_jonas> fixpoint: you can use path signals for most of the places
10:53:50 <b_jonas> but you can still use other signals for some special control
10:53:57 <b_jonas> especially around railway stations
10:53:57 <fixpoint> are there any good guides on what to use where? :) I've built a station and trains get lost around it even though I thought I was pretty explicit with the signals
10:54:22 <b_jonas> fixpoint: you're using a recent version of openttd, right?
10:54:46 <b_jonas> fixpoint: if so, and you can't figure out why your trains get lost, you could try to show screenshots or a savegame so we can help
10:55:11 <b_jonas> or you can look at the openttd wiki (and maybe the openttdcoop wiki) for hints about what signal layouts to use
10:55:20 <b_jonas> but some of the information there is quite old, from before path-based signals
10:57:54 <fixpoint> Yes, the one just downloaded
10:58:56 <fixpoint> Essentially, trains sitting at stations started reserving huge swath of forward tracks - until the next station. Even though I have many signals along the line. I thought PBS reserved track only till the next signal
10:59:07 <fixpoint> Ok, will post a screenshot if can't figure this out :)
10:59:25 <fixpoint> Is there any updated wiki?
11:02:07 <michi_cc> fixpoint: Just in case you read that somewhere, stations do not have built-in signals. So check for signals after the platforms and their direction (facing the platform).
11:04:39 <fixpoint> Thanks! Discovered that the hard way already :-D
11:05:12 <fixpoint> What kind of implicit signal is there at the depot exit?
11:06:10 <Eddi|zuHause> if there are path signals nearby, the depot also has a path signal, otherwise it's a block entry signal
11:09:33 <Eddi|zuHause> fixpoint: if trains reserve too long stretches of signals, make sure the signals inbetween are turned the right way around, or turn them into one-way signals
11:09:39 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, iirc it's a combo signal in depots
11:09:46 <planetmaker> (if not path signal)
11:10:27 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the combo part would never go into effect, since it can never be red to the outside
11:15:04 <b_jonas> about path signals. when a train reverses in a terminus station, does it wait until it can reserve path till the next path signal, and reverses only at that point?
11:15:33 <b_jonas> this may be a stupid question. I don't really understand how signals work.
11:15:40 <Alberth> it turns around, and waits until it can reserve a path
11:16:09 <b_jonas> is that also what happens if I reverse a train with the reverse button?
11:16:33 <Alberth> b_jonas: you can do simple experiments with these things in OpenTTD itself :)
11:17:22 <b_jonas> as in, in a sandbox game, not in a real game
11:17:39 <Alberth> either make a dummy game, or press 'save' before trying random experiments
11:17:54 <b_jonas> I guess I should turn on that option to show reserved tracks for this
11:18:25 <Alberth> it helps in understanding path signals
11:18:35 <Alberth> it's barely visible with maglev though
11:18:52 <Alberth> not sure about monorail
11:19:06 <b_jonas> so I don't leave it on for normal games
11:19:46 <Alberth> I tend to leave it in whatever position the setting is, I don't care much about aesthetics :)
11:21:54 <b_jonas> I wonder if it could make sense to have half path signals (sort of like pre-signals), which behave like a normal path signal from one direction, but in the other direction trains sort of ignore it, so they have to reserve a path from the previous signal till the next signal through it.
11:23:39 <b_jonas> I mean, the route finder sort of tries to look ahead multiple signals, which sort of helps,
11:23:48 <b_jonas> but I'd still like to have explicit reservations this way.
11:25:23 <b_jonas> It probably wouldn't really solve my train control problems though.
11:25:38 <Eddi|zuHause> what do you mean? path signals already are ignored from the other side
11:28:11 <b_jonas> I don't know what I want then
11:31:02 <Alberth> it does look ahead, but a signal is an obstacle, so if you add a signal at every tile, you're effectively reducing look ahead
11:36:52 <b_jonas> I don't add a signal at every tile
11:36:59 <b_jonas> that's what openttdcoop does, not what I do
11:37:24 <b_jonas> (and I think even they put a signal only to every other tile
11:37:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i usually put a signal every 1-1.5 train lengths
11:40:09 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: yes, that is good because it helps avoid trains getting stuck when they choose to turn back
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11:41:12 <Eddi|zuHause> usually causes more harm than good
11:41:37 <b_jonas> as for the signal lookahead, my problem is that sometimes it chooses to send a train down a track towards another station because the path is more free that way. that's actually sometimes a good decision because it helps trains get unstuck, but sometimes a wrong decision because the path to the station would get free in just a moment.
11:42:42 <Eddi|zuHause> that means the path penalties are too close
11:42:52 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: on long lines I add a few tracks where trains can turn back, mostly as a safeguard against errors when the normal tracks don't work they way I intended them,
11:43:28 <b_jonas> such as when a train chooses to leave a station for servicing in a depot before it has handled the cargo at that station
11:44:07 <b_jonas> in that case the train should turn back at a turn back track early rather than have to go to the other station and back
11:44:37 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i don't use depots
11:44:55 <Alberth> I build my junctions such that trains can go in all directions
11:45:34 <b_jonas> I try to avoid this by placing the depots before the stations, not after
11:46:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd try to avoid this with explicit depot orders
11:46:10 <Alberth> it's a little extra work, but it saves head aches like lost trains, and it can immediately handle new train routes
11:47:10 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: hmm… that might work
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11:47:32 <b_jonas> do you mean like conditional depot orders?
11:47:44 <Eddi|zuHause> "service at depot"
11:48:19 <b_jonas> wouldn't an unconditional "service at depot" order cause the trian to be serviced too often, wasting too much time?
11:48:37 <Eddi|zuHause> "service" implies "when needs servicing"
11:48:56 <Eddi|zuHause> the other one is "go to depot", where it doesn't check that
11:49:28 <Alberth> if you use time tables, having a fixed duration is more useful than trying to be as quick as possible
11:50:00 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah. like "real time kernel"
11:50:24 <b_jonas> thanks, I might try that
11:50:33 <b_jonas> I don't use time tables
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11:50:50 <Eddi|zuHause> it's usually slower than "desktop" or "default" kernel, but the fixed lengths makes for better predictability and interactivity
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11:54:31 <Alberth> It may even be more effective in the end. You can push a fully deterministic system quite close to 100%, while a system that is quicker but with variations in duration, will fail in that setting
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12:16:37 <Alberth> not really, he often visits very briefly, he's probably doing several things at the same time :)
12:17:43 <Eddi|zuHause> and he's probably terrible at staying focused :p
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14:36:44 <Alberth> or an openttd coop channel, perhaps
14:37:21 <edog300> Oh shoot. You're right - wrong channel.
14:37:33 <edog300> forgot the -coop on chan name
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15:10:31 <argoneus> V453000: wait, you play LoL?
15:19:48 <Alberth> of course he does, what's the point of making a NewGRF if you don't play the game?
15:32:13 <Wolf01> Noah also forgot the unicorns
15:32:41 <__ln__> Wolf01: explains why they are so rare
15:37:31 <V453000> argoneus: why the fuck would I do that?
15:37:37 <V453000> do I look like I am 12 years old or what
15:38:15 <argoneus> V453000: maybe you played it a few years ago?
15:38:18 <Wolf01> the best reaction to that question I've ever seen
15:38:21 <argoneus> I googled your name and things check out
15:39:34 <V453000> I never ever played league of legends or registered there.
15:41:55 <V453000> I did play heroes of newerth and dota2, yes
15:42:38 <V453000> the general politeness and intelligence of the community made me stay with just watching matches instead however
15:44:57 <argoneus> this is why you play with friends
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15:57:13 <V453000> that doesnt justify anything
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16:43:09 <Quatroking> pocket trains is pretty neat
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16:56:47 <andythenorth> although I’ve spent half of today playing :P
16:58:16 <andythenorth> standard casual game
16:59:16 <b_jonas> is that something related to that other train game that was mentioned here a lot recently?
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17:45:24 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27069 trunk/src/lang/bulgarian.txt (2014-11-30 17:45:17 UTC)
17:45:25 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:26 <DorpsGek> bulgarian - 3 changes by pdedinski
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18:13:29 <andythenorth> what, are they modelling actual train breakdowns in real life now?
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18:29:38 <Alberth> I'd be surprised if they didn't
18:30:49 <Alberth> If you want a reliable engine or to optimize your servicing, it's quite vital to know how it breaks in general :)
18:31:19 <Alberth> and how often, of course
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20:43:43 <frosch123> can't you shedule dramas for when i am gone?
20:44:25 <Alberth> copy/paste stuff not sufficient? :)
20:44:59 <frosch123> didn't read... damn, i probably shouldn't have asked :/
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20:53:35 <andythenorth> also someone said thanks
20:53:41 <andythenorth> which isn’t said enough, maybe
20:53:54 <frosch123> i replied since noone else did :p
20:53:57 <peter1138> rainfall river generator?
20:54:17 <andythenorth> oh peter1138 beat me :(
20:54:37 <frosch123> oh, you didn't visit the forums? sorry, that i mentioned them :)
20:56:29 <andythenorth> “needs diagonal rivers"
21:07:34 <andythenorth> so is anyone trying it?
21:08:40 <planetmaker> andythenorth, did you check rivers from opengfx+landscape?
21:09:36 <andythenorth> I’ve seen them yes
21:09:53 <andythenorth> some time I’ll do an equivalent for TTD base set
21:33:26 <andythenorth> first world problem
21:33:33 <andythenorth> second time reported in a couple of weeks
21:33:45 <andythenorth> and it’s being reported against other vehicle sets frequently
21:35:50 <andythenorth> oh it’s a different variation to the one I fixed
21:36:46 <andythenorth> maybe I just disable Iron Horse with ECS
21:37:11 <andythenorth> which of the vectors has tourists?
21:37:26 <andythenorth> and which version do I need to test against?
21:38:02 <George> Town vector has tourists.
21:38:16 <George> You may use the latest version from bananas
21:38:55 <George> yes, but I havn't uploaded it to bananas
21:39:25 <George> I'm planing to make ECS 2.0 but not this year
21:39:59 <andythenorth> someone has put 1.1.2 on bananas ;)
21:40:41 <George> I have no problem with that
21:41:05 <George> As for issue I think the problem is not with ECS ;)
21:41:20 * andythenorth wonders why nml is not finding tourist cargo to be bitmask(CC_PASSENGERS)
21:41:43 <andythenorth> I thought I was checking cargo label only for PASS, but I already fixed that issue
21:42:41 <George> TOUR should be express passengers
21:45:54 <frosch123> maybe you excluded express
21:46:03 <frosch123> and did not exclude pax for the mail fan
21:47:10 <andythenorth> I get a refit, but using the wrong capacity
21:47:25 <andythenorth> hang on, paste is easier
21:48:05 <andythenorth> returns correct value for pax, returns 100 for tourists
21:48:26 <andythenorth> vehicle only refits pax or tourists, refit appears correct
21:48:33 <frosch123> you are checking for exact match
21:49:18 <frosch123> do s/cargo_classes/cargo_classed & bitmask(CC_PASSENGERS, CC_MAIL)
21:50:22 <andythenorth> is cargo_classed an obiwan?
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21:51:54 <andythenorth> hmm, so an author has to understand AND masks to use this nml feature? o_O
21:52:03 <andythenorth> clearly andythenorth didn’t :P
22:04:40 <andythenorth> combine car is split over 2 cargo units, pax + express
22:04:54 <andythenorth> which provides 30 pax standard
22:05:00 <andythenorth> but refits to 60 tourists :P
22:08:02 <andythenorth> ach, can’t fix that sensibly
22:09:53 <planetmaker> explicit refit for cargo label?
22:11:06 <andythenorth> not without making even more special-cased python classes
22:11:17 <andythenorth> the combine car is already ugly special case type checking
22:11:39 <andythenorth> maybe I can do it only by extending current ugly :P
22:11:43 <andythenorth> and not adding new ugly
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