IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-11-21
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09:09:28 <V453000> Eddi: I wanted to force strong penalty in case Express-Only trains hauled also cargo wagon [the universal wagon refit to cargo instead of pass/mail/gold/diam/valu]
09:14:17 <V453000> but I suppose changing the capacity to 0 is less wtf
09:15:45 <planetmaker> V453000, simply do not allow attachment instead of doing wtf with 0 cargo or low speed :S
09:16:16 <planetmaker> both of those things are equally annoying. Majorly, I have to say
09:17:05 <planetmaker> do not intoduce such bullshit just for the sake of saving *one* vehicleID where you have thousands free
09:17:37 <V453000> there will be options probably
09:17:51 <V453000> but the attachment tends to be confusing just as well
09:17:58 <planetmaker> if you don't want it universally refittable, just don't make it so
09:18:35 <planetmaker> I mean... what's the point to allow a refit in order to just say "ätsch, you can refit, but not use it!"
09:19:52 <planetmaker> not allowing attachment is much clearer than a no-feedback capacity or speed
09:20:24 <V453000> capacity can have feedback through vehicle sprites
09:20:39 <planetmaker> attachment hauls a big error message at the player
09:20:42 <V453000> remember the wtf sprites like MORE that mb had in db set? :P idk if they are still there
09:20:44 <planetmaker> nothing he needs to understand
09:20:51 <planetmaker> yes, I do. Big uglyness
09:21:05 <planetmaker> worst feature there is in that set, really
09:21:07 <V453000> about just as much as an error
09:21:36 <planetmaker> that's bullshit, total bullshit. If you don#t want it attached, that's what the attachment callback is for
09:21:36 <V453000> sure but controlling length of consist by it is something different :)
09:21:50 <planetmaker> and if you don't want to allow that refit, that's the refit callback used for
09:21:59 <planetmaker> don't allow everything and then cripple certain options
09:22:08 <planetmaker> that's HUGE bogus bullshit behaviour
09:22:56 <planetmaker> use the feedback to allow things which are meant to give the corresponding feedback
09:23:29 <V453000> I might just provide both options while at it, selectible by parameter
09:23:47 <V453000> I can see why you think so but at the same time I think my solution is just fine
09:24:15 <planetmaker> that's actually like the features I totally dislike with ussr set. silent changes of stuff without feedback
09:24:35 <planetmaker> and don't tell me sprites change. That's not proper feedback
09:24:47 <planetmaker> you know them. But that's not immediately clear.
09:25:00 <planetmaker> it's bad, if you could say clearly instead "doesn't work"
09:25:02 <V453000> if sprites change to huge red text "SHIT IS HAPPENING", it is clear
09:25:10 <planetmaker> that's bullshit UI
09:25:23 <V453000> well the error disappears after a short while anyway? :P
09:25:35 <planetmaker> that's the point. Somewhen a player might notice. If at all
09:25:57 <planetmaker> just do not ignore the machanisms which are there to tell players. Use them
09:26:05 <planetmaker> Or they will totally be "wtrf? what's wrong"
09:26:44 <planetmaker> you cannot do better with sprites than the UI which is meant to tell players
09:26:48 <V453000> purchase menu text in red explaisn whats wrong quite quickly too
09:27:02 <planetmaker> no. People don't read
09:27:14 <V453000> then they dont need error message :D
09:27:14 <planetmaker> or: "but I can attach it, why doesn't it work?"
09:27:23 <planetmaker> yes, they do. Because then it simply doesn't work
09:27:28 <V453000> they can see they cant "really" attach it
09:27:35 <planetmaker> but your approach makes it appear to work and screw them at the same time
09:27:38 <V453000> and if pax cargo is default they only notice after refitting to freight
09:27:50 <planetmaker> and don't call it universal wagon, if it isn't
09:28:00 <V453000> it will be ultimate wagon now (:
09:31:32 <V453000> I will still consider things, there will be a lot of options to choose from, too, but I still see my solution as okay
09:31:59 <V453000> so far from talking to players I have seen 99% of reports about "why is train not autoreplacing"
09:32:30 <V453000> obviously because there is wrong wagon
09:32:57 <V453000> admittedly they probably dont autoreplace between express and cargo wagons
09:33:28 <V453000> but that is why I will provide all options, and at some point choose what should be the default
09:49:28 <planetmaker> V453000, for that reason: don't make it articulated vehicles. Just make it engines and wagons all separately. And if you then want to adopt looks of wagons to engine, use a switch which queries the engineID and draw different wagon graphics
09:49:40 <planetmaker> but if they are just separate vehicles, autoreplace is no problem at all
09:50:36 <V453000> it is engines and wagons, but wagons are articulated
09:51:22 <V453000> but the ultimate wagon must be able to appear both as 4/8 and 8/8, meaning it has to be 1+2+2+2+1 articulated vehicle =D
09:52:40 <planetmaker> you can simply use one wagon with length 4 or 8?
09:52:58 <V453000> not if I cant change amount of articulated vehicles in consist
09:53:07 <V453000> (keeping total length at 8/8 is key)
09:53:21 <planetmaker> no, but why would you need more than one vehicle for that wagon?
09:54:06 <planetmaker> why must it appear as 4/8 and 8/8?
09:54:20 <planetmaker> can't it always be 8/8? And just look like 2* 4/8?
09:55:04 <V453000> doesnt turn in half in curves :/
09:55:27 <V453000> and that already breaks curve speeds, might as well break them completely with 1+2+2+2+1
09:56:17 <planetmaker> anyway, that's the same vehicleID in all cases. So how does that interfere with autoreplace?
09:56:41 <planetmaker> (though why doesn't 1+6+1 or 3+2+3 work?
09:56:59 <planetmaker> (depending on 2* 4/8 or 1*8/8)
09:57:04 <V453000> if I write it as x1+Y2+Z2+Y2+x1
09:57:15 <V453000> Y2 is centers of 4/8s
09:57:19 <V453000> and Z2 is center of 8/8
09:57:34 <V453000> well thats why, proper turning
09:57:51 <planetmaker> ok, and what's the autoreplace issue now?
09:58:06 <V453000> now the main issue is that I have like 7 various wagons for various engines
09:58:13 <V453000> and all the bullshit "this engine can only haul those wagons"
09:58:28 <V453000> with the ultimate wagon you would autoreplace only engines and wagons would automatically follow
09:58:45 <planetmaker> follow in what way?
09:58:53 <planetmaker> you mean adopt graphics? that doesn't need any refit
09:58:56 <V453000> adapt sprites / all stats
09:59:02 <V453000> no, that keeps original refit
09:59:23 <V453000> the issue of ultimate wagon would come when the wagon would try to refit to coal when attached by a pax-only train
09:59:42 <V453000> since the pax-only trains are vastly superior in all stats, there would be low sense in using anything else
09:59:48 <planetmaker> yes. Just use the refit callback. Query the lead engine in that callback and return "allowed yes/no"
10:00:10 <V453000> that is what I asked about earlier =D so I can change refittability based on leading engine?
10:00:20 <planetmaker> yes, I would think so
10:00:36 <planetmaker> and position in consist
10:03:02 <V453000> well if that works then it solves everything :D
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10:03:55 <V453000> position in consist probably isnt important, the engine doesnt need any switch, it has clearly defined what to refit to, just the wagons and it doesnt matter where they are in tha consist :)
10:07:08 <V453000> will try to do stuff tomorrow
10:07:18 <V453000> alcohol and stuff todey
10:09:31 <V453000> maybe I can try to get it done after lunch =D back soon
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10:10:50 <planetmaker> agreed. You still shouldn't allow attachment of the wagons in the first place
10:11:00 <planetmaker> if the current cargo doesn't match
10:11:43 <planetmaker> or just have one wagon per engine type :P
10:11:50 <andythenorth> oh you’re actually talking about BAD FEATURES :P
10:13:34 <andythenorth> I didn’t understand why you’re having 2 wagons tbh
10:13:42 <andythenorth> but I don’t know nuts very well :)
10:13:49 <andythenorth> apart from some evil trains I remember
10:18:24 <planetmaker> hm, new irons for the horse
10:26:29 <andythenorth> only a small one
10:37:34 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: i imagine 0 capacity will break a lot of AIs, and confuse a lot of players
10:37:52 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a BAD FEATURE waiting to happen
10:39:15 <Eddi|zuHause> honestly, i think 2 wagons is the cleanest solution
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11:09:44 <andythenorth> V453000: remind me, what’s the problem with having just 1 wagon?
11:10:37 <Eddi|zuHause> boring gameplay, i presume
11:11:06 <peter1138> Isn't that the point of NUTS?
11:11:26 <andythenorth> bloody tourist cargo
11:11:47 <supermop> i just started a game
11:12:35 <peter1138> Do tourists pay more than commuters?
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11:12:44 <andythenorth> depends on max loan
11:12:48 <peter1138> (Well, ignoring season passes and the like)
11:14:16 <andythenorth> tourists are bloody express as well as pax
11:14:22 <andythenorth> which fucks over refits
11:14:40 <andythenorth> 'non_all_freight': ['TOUR'] :P
11:15:55 <andythenorth> we all do stupid things
11:16:15 <supermop> i once rode in an open car as a tourist i see no issue
11:16:51 <andythenorth> maybe I should allow the mail cars to haul tourists :P
11:17:04 <supermop> really a tourist should want an exciting interesting ride
11:17:21 <supermop> baggage avtually does sound quite a good idea
11:17:32 <Alberth> max loan isn't done yet ?
11:17:51 <supermop> why not model tourists as bags?
11:20:26 <andythenorth> which vectors do I need?
11:20:43 <andythenorth> Basic Vector for Arctic?
11:20:54 <andythenorth> Construction Vector by Pikka?
11:21:14 <andythenorth> Basic Vector II?
11:21:22 <andythenorth> which one is Tourists?
11:22:17 <andythenorth> released version of OTTD has tiny GUI
11:22:27 <andythenorth> like it’s 2013 or something
11:23:46 <Alberth> although I never managed to get any tourist :p
11:24:35 <V453000> planetmaker: nuts currently does have one wagon per engine class kind of :P iz bad
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11:25:11 <V453000> andythenorth: the problem with 1 wagon is that there are express trains which are better than anything else, and are meant to only carry express cargoes
11:25:43 <andythenorth> are they faster than other trains?
11:27:11 <V453000> faster, stronger, better
11:27:57 <V453000> if disallowing to refit the wagons to specific cargoes with some engines works, it could be fine then
11:29:18 <andythenorth> you need two wagons, then either prevent attach, or use a speed limit
11:29:24 <andythenorth> speed limits are the answer
11:29:34 <andythenorth> or get rid of the express trains
11:29:42 <andythenorth> which is even easier decision
11:30:19 <supermop> dont see new horse - do i need new nightly?
11:30:30 <andythenorth> not on bananas yet
11:30:38 <V453000> bad decision though :) they have their use
11:30:50 <V453000> speed limits are not helping either if the train is stronger :)
11:30:53 <andythenorth> V453000: well get rid of the other engines then
11:30:55 <andythenorth> just use express
11:31:12 <V453000> variety is a word? :P
11:31:56 <Alberth> as in, a sequence of letter without whitespace in-between, sure :)
11:33:24 <andythenorth> supermop: on bananas now
11:34:08 <andythenorth> that’s 5 mins of wtf I won’t get back
11:35:27 <andythenorth> hg add . is also highly undesirable :P
11:35:34 * andythenorth might have to switch to git
11:36:40 <V453000> so how do I apply a switch to those? can they be used as a callback somehow? cargo_allow_refit: []; cargo_disallow_refit: [YETI];
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11:37:14 <V453000> cause they arent included in callbacks on the tt-wiki
11:37:47 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: there is a refit callback
11:37:48 <andythenorth> do it with the refit cost cb
11:37:57 <andythenorth> it has an allow / disallow option
11:38:05 <andythenorth> you’re breaking everyone’s orders though
11:38:35 * andythenorth isn’t just arguing for sake of arguing :P
11:38:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm still recommending just the 2 wagon solution
11:39:09 <V453000> I will include that for sure in parameters
11:39:19 <V453000> just want to try and see how would one wagon work
11:40:08 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: product(1-alpha) seem right to me
11:42:31 <andythenorth> come on bundles :P
11:44:24 <Alberth> good products take time to cook :)
11:48:29 <Alberth> things are always slow when you watch them
11:49:31 <andythenorth> supermop: you’d better upgrade :P
11:49:42 <andythenorth> also I just broke all savegames, but didn’t bump version
11:55:23 <andythenorth> that tourists bug will also affect Road Hog
12:01:14 <andythenorth> tourists set express cargo
12:01:20 <andythenorth> class / cargo /s
12:01:26 <andythenorth> but it causes bugs in sets
12:01:35 <andythenorth> if that makes sense :P
12:03:21 <V453000> tourists are obviously oversized
12:04:12 <andythenorth> only on the way home
12:04:26 <supermop> why not silently remove tourists from game and chide player for attempting to transport them
12:04:51 <planetmaker> right, yes. So the 'bug' is that class 'express' usually is treated like that it's not a passenger?
12:05:19 <planetmaker> one could argue that tourists being class 'express' is a bug, too :)
12:05:31 <planetmaker> depends. But doesn't matter as it is like it is
12:05:52 <planetmaker> treat it by cargo label and you're safe :)
12:06:05 <andythenorth> well now it’s a fact in the wild
12:06:11 <andythenorth> not hard to fix, just blearch
12:06:13 <planetmaker> using the properties which explicitly allow or disallow certain labels
12:08:32 <V453000> nuts hax that all the time :P
12:10:37 <peter1138> We added the "explicity add/remove cargo carrying by label" property, didn't we?
12:10:59 <peter1138> Before that it was pretty impossible :p
12:11:00 <andythenorth> nothing to see here except griping
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12:11:20 <andythenorth> anyway, should buy menu show the cargo decay rate thing?
12:13:18 <planetmaker> andythenorth, how do you want to show it?
12:13:33 <andythenorth> what does the number mean, to player?
12:13:39 <andythenorth> same for loading speed I guess
12:13:47 <planetmaker> just put it into nice words
12:14:09 <planetmaker> and don't make it too complicated (i.e. vary by cargo and time and mood ;) )
12:14:22 <andythenorth> my compile doesn’t allow extra buy menu text
12:14:31 <planetmaker> fast / slow / normal ?
12:14:36 <planetmaker> ach, you and your compile not possible
12:14:58 <V453000> loading speed does make sense though I think
12:15:37 <andythenorth> extra buy menu text is a sign of weak design imho
12:15:37 <planetmaker> you fixed your compile process up to the point that it now inhibits you making nice stuff, andythenorth :)
12:15:48 <Alberth> not really, amount of cargo / speed does
12:16:08 <andythenorth> I’ve gone right off extra text, I think it’s used to gloss over terrible ideas
12:16:11 <andythenorth> and make them sound nice
12:16:46 <planetmaker> loading speed and cargo decay are viable differentiations between vehicles. Adding that info imho does not constitute bad feature nor terrible ideas
12:16:49 <andythenorth> I’d bin the text in FIRS if I could only think how
12:16:50 <Alberth> it can be used for that, yeah
12:17:14 <andythenorth> if those properties are valid to show to player, then ottd should do it
12:17:27 <V453000> andy I think you are going too far with removing things
12:18:01 <planetmaker> andythenorth, but then openttd would have to decide about the meaning of normal speed
12:18:04 <planetmaker> which cannot really be done
12:18:36 <planetmaker> at least not sensibly. Because then immediately another person comes and goes like my normal speed is a different value
12:18:45 <andythenorth> V453000: you only have one wagon, and you’re breaking orders, so pot, kettle, eh? :D
12:18:46 <planetmaker> (speed as in loading speed or cargo decay speed)
12:19:04 <argoneus> my normal speed > your normal speed
12:19:08 <planetmaker> yes, you're equally bad. Just different ;)
12:19:11 <andythenorth> there already are normalised values for those props
12:19:17 <andythenorth> they’re well established
12:19:55 <planetmaker> andythenorth, are they? Of course there are defaults for the default vehicles. But...
12:20:08 <planetmaker> anyhow, it's a weak argument of yours :)
12:20:23 <andythenorth> so we just leave them out of buy menu and be done with it
12:21:56 <andythenorth> no patch required
12:28:22 <Eddi|zuHause> good friday was half a year ago
12:30:03 <NGC3982> I wonder why the English language does not use that more often.
12:30:31 <planetmaker> obviously it was only moderately good to crucify s/o
12:32:37 <andythenorth> forest objects \o/
12:35:38 <__ln__> can we please start using the words 'overmorrow' and 'ereysterday'?
12:35:56 <planetmaker> you mean to re-start using them?
12:37:00 <Eddi|zuHause> well, "übermorgen" and "vorgestern" are perfectly well established german words...
12:37:44 <Alberth> as are "overmorgen" en "eergisteren" in Dutch
12:37:45 <Eddi|zuHause> and i always struggle with translating them
12:39:10 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently, english people don't look more than one day ahead or one day in the past
12:39:41 <__ln__> more or less all[*] languages except modern english have such words.
12:39:42 <b_jonas_> Eddi|zuHause: or they use phrases like "Monday week"
12:40:51 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas_: wtf is that supposed to mean?
12:41:08 <andythenorth> a week from the next Monday of course
12:41:14 <andythenorth> they’re their there
12:43:10 <Eddi|zuHause> why not just say "next monday" [as opposed to "this monday"], like normal people?
12:43:30 <b_jonas_> a moment, I'm searching for the link explaining this
12:43:37 <b_jonas_> it's apparently regional
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12:45:05 <andythenorth> next monday is easily conflated
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12:53:22 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: similar words exist in Japanese as well
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13:05:29 <planetmaker> ups... supermop :)
13:09:21 <Alberth> bottom tower was just placed, the white cursor stays visible, the back tower was placed, and moved out and back into the main display
13:09:51 <planetmaker> might well be, yes. I recall there's some issue, though I didn't recall there being an issue with normal ground tiles
13:09:58 <planetmaker> just with steep slopes
13:10:02 <Alberth> bounding box seems a bit low
13:10:32 <Alberth> but then you'd expect glitches in the top part
13:11:21 <planetmaker> the ground definitely has nothing to do with bounding box
13:11:38 <planetmaker> rather seems like it adds a transparent ground sprite (or none)
13:13:50 <Alberth> I'll make a few issues at the landscape project
13:15:54 <Alberth> ha, #6695 didn't make its target version :p
13:18:26 <Alberth> Oh, it already exists as feature #2311
13:20:58 <planetmaker> he, Alberth did forget to open one irc window :P
13:21:39 <planetmaker> I assume several channels per window
14:00:08 <andythenorth> I get these tickets sometimes
14:01:25 <Alberth> andythenorth: stable isn't updated with new translations?
14:02:03 <andythenorth> I guess I have to release
14:02:10 <andythenorth> wondering if it’s 1.0
14:02:17 <andythenorth> anyone using Termite? Is it 1.0?
14:02:50 <Alberth> I'll have to fix a few compile errors before I can look
14:03:11 <andythenorth> only German changed since 0.3
14:03:28 <Alberth> silversurfer does spanish iirc
14:04:41 <andythenorth> 0.2 release covered that ticket then
14:05:07 <andythenorth> automated translation releases :P
14:05:29 <Alberth> bananas has 0.3 it seems
14:06:03 <andythenorth> planetmaker: snow CHIPS? o_O
14:06:04 <Alberth> there are more newgrfs with that problem I think
14:06:23 <Alberth> santa claus waiting at the station for goods!
14:07:43 <planetmaker> snow chips, indeed
14:07:57 <andythenorth> I probably have most of the sprites in FIRS already
14:08:24 <planetmaker> and those tickets mean that the translator is displeased with the release cycle and wants to see his translations released on bananas :)
14:09:13 <andythenorth> bananas should fetch nightlies :P
14:10:24 <andythenorth> planetmaker: how confident are you that you can code the snow? o_O I could start updating sprites...
14:10:36 <Alberth> it should have a project page "make changeset F00 release 1.2.3"
14:14:37 <planetmaker> andythenorth, in principle it's not difficult to make devzone upload nightly or weekly builds to bananas
14:14:54 <planetmaker> all tools are there, basically. It just needs some small changes
14:15:00 <andythenorth> we don’t have any way of marking them as ‘non-released'
14:15:21 <planetmaker> well. The version displayed might.
14:15:35 <planetmaker> FIRS v5493 (nightly)
14:15:49 <planetmaker> or whatever. The (nightly) part currently is not there, but meh
14:16:18 <planetmaker> as with respect to snow on CHIPS: I didn't yet find time to actually try. But I still believe it's doable
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14:16:39 <planetmaker> though tbh, I'm still scared of nfo :P
14:16:43 <andythenorth> maybe I do ‘early trains’ for Iron Horse
14:17:00 <planetmaker> but I still want to do it. So...
14:17:00 <andythenorth> should the early + maglev be configurable to ‘off’?
14:17:07 <andythenorth> they wil be same for all rosters
14:17:27 <andythenorth> 1 horse, 1 steam engine, 1 pax maglev, 1 freight maglev
14:17:28 <planetmaker> don't play early: no early ones there. Don't use maglev: no problem
14:17:39 <andythenorth> I use ‘vehicles never expire’ :D
14:17:56 <andythenorth> oh we have that hide thing now
14:17:59 <planetmaker> rather than that parameter add purchase list texts :P
14:18:22 <andythenorth> I disagree with purchase texts
14:18:28 <andythenorth> you disagree with my parameter
14:19:06 <andythenorth> V453000 is quite wrong though
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15:00:19 <andythenorth> so Iron Horse etc have a concept of ‘packaged goods’ which are fast
15:00:27 <andythenorth> so only packaged goods on freight maglev?
15:00:58 <Alberth> packaged goods could be nice
15:01:24 <Alberth> the problem with not allowing some cargo is that you cannot mix trains on the network easily
15:01:44 <Alberth> but you can see that as a good thing I guess
15:01:54 <Alberth> as mass-update to maglev won't work :p
15:02:58 <andythenorth> I see no reason to ban coal etc
15:03:11 <andythenorth> it just gets very boring
15:03:24 <andythenorth> because I’m only providing limited vehicles
15:03:50 * andythenorth absolutely needs to do a pipelines grf :P
15:04:50 <Alberth> I am still looking for a way to build a multi-cargo transport backbone
15:05:08 <Alberth> I should probably do something with refitting
15:06:05 <Alberth> serving industries around the country, ie transport everything it needs and produces
15:06:10 <Alberth> for all industry kinds
15:06:46 <Alberth> gets extremely messy when you have more than a few different cargoes
15:07:07 <andythenorth> you lack appropriate vehicles, or appropriate orders? o_O
15:07:46 <andythenorth> IH open wagons refit everything
15:08:05 <Alberth> should try that one then
15:08:32 <andythenorth> IH box vans appear to refit everything
15:08:42 <Alberth> I can live without pax/mail :)
15:09:47 <andythenorth> ok, it’s the open cars that refit everything except pax/mail
15:09:50 <andythenorth> box car more limited
15:09:58 <andythenorth> 2 generations, fastes one is 85mph
15:15:43 <planetmaker> and come back with snowy sprites ;)
15:29:07 <Eddi|zuHause> that's only a tiny step before "and don't bother coming back without..."
15:34:06 <planetmaker> he, lol :) no, that's far from how I meant it
15:43:08 <Alberth> perhaps code a simple station builder for NFO in python?
15:43:34 <Alberth> should be relatively easy to raise the abstraction level, and flexible enough to change as you want
15:45:02 <Eddi|zuHause> a code generator! what a novel idea!
15:45:51 <Alberth> that would imply you know what your higher level language primitives are :p
15:52:19 <planetmaker> Alberth, that implies I know how the nfo works. In order to get a fundamental grasp I agreed to try add some snow sprites :)
15:57:44 <Eddi|zuHause> but if there's a hole in the bucket...
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16:01:15 <planetmaker> andythenorth, you had somewhere a snowy version for something in chips. can you link me to it again, please?
16:02:06 <andythenorth> will require handling the cargo states, so it’s probably one of the more complex cases
16:02:18 <andythenorth> the other complex case is randomisation of buildings / vehicles on a tile
16:02:26 <andythenorth> but both should just be a single varaction 2
16:02:32 <andythenorth> in the graphics chain
16:02:46 <planetmaker> ok, so that's not yet coded that png?
16:02:52 <andythenorth> old FIRS used to have nfo snow support, how hard can it be for stations? :x
16:03:17 <planetmaker> not much more difficult. but stations being stations being stations being nfo :P
16:03:47 <planetmaker> and had I pulled I would have seen that commit with it :)
16:25:08 <andythenorth> capsule pipelines
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16:30:17 <andythenorth> so what’s boring about maglev then peter1138 ?
16:31:34 <peter1138> Trying to figure out which track bits are placed is boring.
16:34:26 <andythenorth> and maglev is ugly also
16:35:28 <peter1138> Maybe I'll make a test-GRF one day, for the GRF-provides-all-track-combinations patch.
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16:36:33 <peter1138> The patch that pikka wanted.
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16:36:56 <andythenorth> what does it do o_O
16:40:13 <andythenorth> yet another fucking cost thread?
16:40:19 <andythenorth> cost / payment /s
16:40:24 <andythenorth> days after the last one
16:41:41 <peter1138> Er, it... lets the GRF provide all track combinations... er...
16:41:55 <peter1138> Instead of combining different pieces for junctions.
16:46:54 <andythenorth> so no more janky crossings
16:47:08 <peter1138> I suspect it would be useful for 4x tiles.
16:47:40 <peter1138> There's still the problem that | and - track is distorted.
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16:58:10 <andythenorth> there’s also the problem that / and \ views in Squid are longer than the – views
16:58:15 <andythenorth> problems everywhere
16:58:33 <planetmaker> nfo is meh. Did I say so already?
17:04:56 <Eddi|zuHause> turn it into m4nfo :)
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17:45:23 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27065 trunk/src/lang/danish.txt (2014-11-21 17:45:16 UTC)
17:45:24 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:25 <DorpsGek> danish - 18 changes by manframe
17:45:37 <andythenorth> pipelines are a faff to signal
17:45:41 <andythenorth> and take a lot of space
17:45:45 <andythenorth> they’d be better as trams
17:46:00 <andythenorth> or we could go mad, and add a new transport type :o
17:47:57 <Eddi|zuHause> hmm... my mouse battery is emtpy. but if i get up now to replace it, the cat will demand food
17:49:41 <andythenorth> so give it food? :)
17:49:46 <andythenorth> that’s how it works with children
17:49:54 <andythenorth> except when it’s the wrong time
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17:50:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i always said it'd be better as roadtype
17:51:42 <Eddi|zuHause> but there's nothing really speaking against a new transport type for pipes/cablecars/skilifts etc.
17:52:46 <Eddi|zuHause> ... rollercoasters :p
17:54:30 <planetmaker> from rollercoaster import *
17:54:58 <andythenorth> apart from coding it...
17:55:02 <andythenorth> but the game is kind of done
17:55:05 <andythenorth> so what next eh?
17:56:08 <Eddi|zuHause> it's like in faust, as soon as you say "this is finished, it should stay this way", the devil will come and claim his part of the deal
17:56:27 <andythenorth> I didn’t know that was from faust :)
17:56:32 <andythenorth> but the sentiment is good
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17:56:52 <Eddi|zuHause> well you probably didn't read faust in school :p
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18:03:36 <andythenorth> so bi-directional transport on a single tile
18:03:43 <andythenorth> discrete packets
18:03:48 <andythenorth> are junctions allowed?
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18:20:06 <Eddi|zuHause> junctions can only be at "pumping" stations
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18:22:43 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how much follows from what we already have?
18:22:49 <andythenorth> we keep orders etc?
18:22:55 <andythenorth> pumping stations ~= waypoints?
18:23:45 <Eddi|zuHause> pumping stations are more like depots, they create and disband vehicles
18:24:24 <Eddi|zuHause> but they also load cargo onto those vehicles
18:29:06 <andythenorth> and do we have stations?
18:30:13 <Eddi|zuHause> but this creates a gui problem
18:32:50 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, once you connected two pumping stations, they act sort of like a train, one side issues a "wagon" depending on how far along the consist you are, and the other side consumes it or sends it back
18:33:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the number of vehicles in the consist defines how often the pumping station pumps and how fast it goes
18:33:19 <Eddi|zuHause> up to a capacity
18:34:22 <andythenorth> so this would need designed + build from ground up, rather than a hack on trains?
18:34:40 <Alberth> just use pumpstations at every tile?
18:35:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: offers no advantage
18:35:42 <Alberth> more capacity, since travel time of the vehicle is shorter
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18:36:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: if they act like a depot, the vehicle must travel through the entire pumping station tile
18:37:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: in any case, it's no different than station walking/teleporting
18:37:51 <Eddi|zuHause> plus maintenance costs will go through the roof
18:39:28 <andythenorth> so it shouldn’t be too easy to do ultimate transport type...
18:39:42 <andythenorth> with current PIPE grf, it has two limitations
18:39:53 <andythenorth> it has crappy signal sprites, which are hard to see (bad limitation)
18:40:07 <andythenorth> it takes a ful tile for one direction (neither good nor bad limitation)
18:40:23 <andythenorth> so routing pipelines takes thought
18:40:25 <Eddi|zuHause> current PIPE grf has it completely wrong. pipes are not fast
18:40:33 <andythenorth> but the signal faff is just yak-shaving
18:40:43 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: wrong against reality, but works in game
18:40:53 <andythenorth> implementation is ugh, result is ok
18:41:26 <Eddi|zuHause> pipe "vehicles" have no speed, they move forward every time the pumping station issues a new vehicle
18:42:25 <Eddi|zuHause> which may depend on loading speed
18:43:11 <Eddi|zuHause> this will make things terrible for low throughput links
18:47:22 <andythenorth> what’s the movement like?
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18:50:53 <Eddi|zuHause> same as train wagons, only that the engine is not at the beginning
18:51:00 <andythenorth> are vehicles represented?
18:51:19 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, cablecars etc. would need representing
18:51:30 <andythenorth> one direction per tile, or bi-directional?
18:51:42 <Eddi|zuHause> newgrf can choose to make transparent sprites
18:52:23 * andythenorth trying to work out if a vertical offset is possible
18:53:09 <Eddi|zuHause> same way as elevated trams/subways, or flexible bridges
18:53:24 <andythenorth> elevated trams are crap
18:53:29 <andythenorth> they hit catenary
18:53:33 <andythenorth> they hit bridges
18:53:35 <andythenorth> they hit tunnels
18:53:55 <Eddi|zuHause> cable cars or power lines could kinda use elevation
18:54:25 <andythenorth> it ought to be a full height level, baked in, not a hack by pushing sprites upwards
18:54:38 <andythenorth> dunno if that’s possible though
18:54:51 <Eddi|zuHause> it needs implementing
18:55:23 <andythenorth> any restrictions on crossing other transport types?
18:55:37 <Eddi|zuHause> what speaks against underground/elevated tram is the connector pieces with normal tram
18:55:42 <andythenorth> also is there a bridge concept? Can it cross own route orthogonally
18:55:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: not on same level
18:56:08 <Eddi|zuHause> bridge would be a replacement for an elevation concept
18:56:30 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have elevation, you don't need bridges
18:56:42 <andythenorth> if you have elevation, tunnels are game-over?
18:57:09 <Eddi|zuHause> tunnel=negative elevation
18:57:32 <Eddi|zuHause> or, to start a tunnel, elevation must first be lowered to 0
18:59:55 <andythenorth> we could also have elevation -1?
19:00:58 <Eddi|zuHause> save for a real underground mode, it's the only useful way to get subways
19:01:19 <andythenorth> how would the tile above show the underground route?
19:01:28 <andythenorth> not doing that would suck for various reasons
19:02:20 <Eddi|zuHause> for subways, maybe cut out sections of the road, so it shines through (like transparency)
19:03:50 <Alberth> we'll add a "transparent tile" tool, like dynamite, but it makes the land transparent :p
19:19:26 <andythenorth> so is it done yet? o_O
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19:28:51 <dasy2k1> hi all looking in the source code at the moment to find which file controls the settings gui. the obvious choice of settings_gui.cpp turned out to be the file for the game options gui
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19:30:53 <dasy2k1> trawled through all the other likley contenders but no luck there either
19:31:12 <Eddi|zuHause> settings_gui is for the display, table/settings.ini is for what settings there are
19:32:17 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe look at revisions that add a setting to get more feeling for it
19:32:57 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what is this new transport type called?
19:33:06 <dasy2k1> possibly. the settings window im after is what used to be called the advanced settings
19:33:07 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise, give more details about what you're trying to do
19:34:24 <dasy2k1> I want to see how the expantion of groups with +- buttons is done with the view to making the vehicle groups gui collapsable with nested groups
19:35:54 <Eddi|zuHause> oh. maybe try widget/tree_widget.h
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19:37:15 <Alberth> dasy2k1: SettingsPage and SettingsContainer have fold/unfold
19:37:43 <dasy2k1> hmm Eddi|zuHause looks like tree_widget is for trees that grow not trees of lists
19:38:47 <Eddi|zuHause> possible. i try to stay away from gui as far as possible :p
19:39:19 <Alberth> clicking the close button is an adventure :)
19:40:36 <dasy2k1> sorry Alberth where are SettingsPage and SettingsContainer located?
19:41:33 <Alberth> SettingEntry <-- sorry, that's the basic elementI think, settings_gui.cpp line 745
19:41:48 <Alberth> SettingsPage is below it
19:43:26 <Alberth> but I can see the use of a template if you want to copy the code
19:44:10 <Alberth> or pehaps a base class
19:44:13 <dasy2k1> ahh ok (i admit that this is my first foray into the code itself, all i have done before is tweak newgrf code around)
19:44:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i meant gui code, not using gui :p
19:46:24 <Alberth> dasy2k1: you may want to have a look at a previous version first, before the filters were added
19:47:15 <dasy2k1> hmm looking at the way it works is might be better to use the folding from the cargo waiting display in a station rather than from settings
19:48:13 <dasy2k1> Alberth: can you suggest a version?
19:51:57 <Alberth> r24329 or r24411 or so
19:56:06 <frosch123> meh, so much spam today
19:56:32 <Wolf01> bah, too many brand new pieces on the last lego set... I can't rebuild it on LDD
19:56:52 <frosch123> V453000: whatever, the allow_attach callback is evaluated by autoreplace. it would be terrible if a vehicle set would allow autoreplace to make a train crappy
20:02:41 <dasy2k1> hmm the bit i was looking to reuse is not there that far back... looks to me at the moment that the code that could be reused somewhat is in station_gui.cpp at around like 1300
20:04:09 <andythenorth> does NUTS allow station refit?
20:04:16 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, cargodist was added later than the settings filters
20:05:43 <andythenorth> so maglev, or not?
20:05:46 <Eddi|zuHause> so you can't find settings_gui without filters and station_gui with tree view in the same revision
20:05:54 <andythenorth> currently nothing new after year 2000
20:05:57 <andythenorth> which doesn’t bother me
20:06:04 <andythenorth> because I’m playing 1900-2000
20:06:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: point people to other maglev sets
20:06:47 <andythenorth> I’d kind of like to do a nice treatment of futuristic trains
20:06:57 <Eddi|zuHause> or make a "iron maglev" set
20:07:38 <Eddi|zuHause> range 2000-2100, similar vehicle development
20:08:36 <andythenorth> dunno if I have enough motivation though
20:09:08 <Eddi|zuHause> or do something crazy: make a monorail set :p
20:09:20 <andythenorth> dan wants to do that
20:09:24 <andythenorth> but not futuristic
20:09:34 <dasy2k1> thanks everyone , real life calls at the moment but i may be back later
20:10:26 <Eddi|zuHause> my brain always wants to parse your name as "das" "y2k" and has a leftover "1"
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20:20:43 <dasy2k1> Eddi|zuHause: yeh you want to prounce it more or lest correctly then, its das y2k1 not daisy2k1
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20:43:31 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so name for this transport type?
20:43:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not in the naming business
20:46:09 <andythenorth> well what is it, conceptually?
20:47:45 <Eddi|zuHause> something that covers pipes, conveyor belts, cable cars, power lines, ...
20:54:59 <frosch123> sounds like factorio
20:56:45 <andythenorth> might just be ‘conveyor'
20:58:50 <argoneus> why is postapocalyptic used when referring to a nuked world?
20:58:58 <argoneus> I thought apocalypse was end of the world due to some prophecy
20:59:53 <frosch123> yes, but apocalypsis does not mean supernove
20:59:59 <frosch123> thus there must be some other reason
21:00:52 <argoneus> nukes are scary things ._.
21:00:53 <frosch123> so there are various types of apocalypsis novels: zombies, viruses, comets, nukes, stupidity, ...
21:01:00 <argoneus> to think that there are countries in the world today
21:01:08 <argoneus> who could singlehandedly destroy all life in a matter of hours
21:01:46 <argoneus> was this a real threat during the cold war?
21:02:01 <argoneus> I thought the cold war was mostly an economical conflict
21:02:18 <frosch123> in cold war cccr had way more nucear weapons than us afaik
21:02:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the greek-derived word "apokalypsis" means "reveal"
21:02:32 <frosch123> us was confident with having enough weapons to destroy earth
21:02:33 <argoneus> (also please stop me before it gets "political" again, I do not seek a ban)
21:02:43 <frosch123> while cccr had enough to destroy it like 500 times
21:03:03 <argoneus> soviet engineering :D
21:03:32 <Eddi|zuHause> in christian belief systems, "apokalypsis" means the end of the world as we know it
21:03:35 <frosch123> anyway, it proves the point that it does not matter whether you have enough to destroy earth
21:03:40 <frosch123> you just need bigger numbers than the others
21:03:56 <argoneus> so the reason why there hasn't been an open nuclear war
21:04:02 <Eddi|zuHause> in science fiction literature, it is usually derived as "some cataclysmic event that destroys most of civilization"
21:04:04 <argoneus> is among others the fact that countries don't know how many nukes another country has?
21:04:09 <argoneus> and doesn't want to suicide?
21:04:24 <frosch123> no, the reason that there is no war is that there is no point in war
21:04:28 <Eddi|zuHause> the cataclysm is usually man-made, but not always
21:04:35 <argoneus> there was never point in war
21:04:40 <argoneus> but people are greedy by nature
21:04:52 <frosch123> there were many reasons for war before ww1
21:04:52 <argoneus> most huge wars didn't start by "we declare world war"
21:04:54 <Eddi|zuHause> there have been lots of points in war
21:04:56 <argoneus> they started by small petty conflicts
21:05:15 <Eddi|zuHause> war has been the primary driver of technological development
21:05:20 <argoneus> see: assassination of a guy, a shootout on polish borders
21:05:23 <frosch123> only ww1 and ww2 pointed out that there is no gain in fighting anyone who is not dramatically weaker
21:05:41 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: that's how they started, not why they were started
21:05:52 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause: oh, as in
21:05:55 <argoneus> these two were the last drop?
21:06:27 <frosch123> yes, because they both ended with noone really winning
21:06:47 <frosch123> but everyone being a lot weaker than before
21:06:54 <Eddi|zuHause> besides, there was a whole month between "a guy being assassinated" and actual war starting
21:07:33 <argoneus> I don't know why, but I find WW1 to be worse than WW2
21:07:36 <argoneus> it just felt... darker...
21:07:41 <frosch123> except maybe US, who likely came out stronger out of ww2
21:07:50 <argoneus> presumably even chemical weapons were used and new things were being tested
21:07:57 <argoneus> it's creepy in a way
21:08:29 <dasy2k1> and when will historians agree on the start date for ww3, we are not quite there yet but if current trends continue i can see kids in 2150 learning that the chain of events that led to ww3 starting started in 2001 with it becomming a world war by around 2020
21:08:29 <frosch123> yes, ww1 is somewhat weird because of the silly things it was started for
21:08:33 <Eddi|zuHause> WW1 is probably "worst" in the case of "senseless dying with no motion in any direction"
21:08:49 <frosch123> ww2 otoh was started for reasons still popular in today's fiction
21:09:00 <Eddi|zuHause> WW2 however "wins" in terms of atrocities committed
21:09:01 <argoneus> that the troops in the trenches got together and drank tea
21:09:32 <argoneus> that no one really wanted to fight
21:09:37 <frosch123> if at all, they drank alcohol
21:10:05 <frosch123> but yes, there are stories about shared christmas parties of local groups
21:10:14 <Eddi|zuHause> there are studies that a large part of soldiers never actually fired their guns
21:10:53 <Eddi|zuHause> this applies to most wars, actually
21:11:23 <argoneus> I'd imagine the common 18 year old doesn't know why he should shoot other 18 yo's
21:11:28 <dasy2k1> it wasnt the universal Christmas truce that people talk about now but there were small areas where there was a cease in hostiliies for the day, mainly used to bury the dead
21:12:06 <frosch123> argoneus: you are underestimating the effects of social expectations
21:12:39 <frosch123> 99% of humans do what the nearby humans expect them to do
21:12:40 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the US spent a lot of time post-WW2 and post-Vietnam training soldiers to actually shoot
21:12:46 <andythenorth> dunno how that goes
21:12:52 <dasy2k1> the main motivation was shoot them or be shot by your own officer for disobeying orders/cowadace
21:13:07 <argoneus> was it same for the officer?
21:13:12 <argoneus> or was the officer brainwashed with ideals
21:13:38 <andythenorth> depending on what year you choose ....
21:14:26 <dasy2k1> argoneus: pretty much but the officer would be removed from duty, court martialed totally discraced and then exicuted
21:14:37 <andythenorth> the russians also have that doomsday device, which allegedly the USA don’t
21:14:46 <frosch123> andythenorth: ok, i thought the west was actually really weak in repect to numbers
21:15:00 <andythenorth> the USA had a huge stockpile
21:15:16 <andythenorth> playing catch up is thought to be one reason for USSR collapse
21:15:32 <dasy2k1> aaui the ussr had more numbers of nukes but the usa had more powerful nukes
21:15:57 <andythenorth> you can see (for example) why in 1968 Soviets might feel a huge threat from USA
21:16:15 <andythenorth> and more so if you use the polar projection map that Soviet leaders are alleged to use
21:16:36 <andythenorth> which shows USSR encircled by nuclear-armed enemies who can lob missiles into russia easily
21:16:54 <Eddi|zuHause> the race between USSR and USA was never fair to begin with, because the USA were not scarred by war
21:17:21 <argoneus> is it just me, or were the japanese even more inhumane than the germans?
21:17:35 <argoneus> I read an article about two japanese officers making a bet who can kill more (japanese?) civilians in one day with a sword
21:17:48 <frosch123> argoneus: chinese, not japanese
21:17:58 <Eddi|zuHause> japanese atrocities were mainly targeted at the chinese
21:18:09 <frosch123> argoneus: japan killed chinese the way germans killed jews and slavics
21:18:22 <andythenorth> ^^^ Russia caught between NATO block and Chinese
21:18:25 <Eddi|zuHause> whereas german atrocities covered large parts of their own population that was not deemed "pure" enough
21:18:26 <frosch123> argoneus: google for rape of nanking or so
21:18:33 <argoneus> I thought they weren't targetting slavs
21:18:44 <argoneus> or rather, in the case of my country, they just occupied it
21:19:14 <andythenorth> tonight is history night :P
21:19:29 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: not slavs per se, but oppositionals, jews which lived in the area, homosexuals, gypsies, ...
21:20:12 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: and slavs were widely used as forced labour
21:20:28 <argoneus> they used our people and factories to make tanks
21:20:39 <argoneus> and they stole the hulls of our tanks
21:20:41 <argoneus> and put their own guns on it
21:20:59 <frosch123> hmm, i always wondered about the correlation between slavs and slaves, is there any?
21:21:00 <Eddi|zuHause> pre-WWII, the tzech army was widely considered as highly technologically advanced
21:21:02 <argoneus> I guess they did everywhere though
21:21:13 <Eddi|zuHause> which was probably a major reason for occupation
21:21:20 <argoneus> from what I was taught
21:21:27 <argoneus> well, you know, our country is surrounded by mountains
21:21:34 <argoneus> and people say that germans couldn't break through on land
21:21:43 <argoneus> but the reason we gave up and let them occupy is, is that their airforce was superior
21:21:52 <argoneus> and if we tried to fight, prague would be a grassy plain right now
21:22:05 <argoneus> that's what they teach us at least
21:22:17 <argoneus> but apparently our weapons and tanks were on par, if not better, at the time
21:22:26 <Eddi|zuHause> they didn't teach this part really. it just was a small footnote
21:23:11 <frosch123> the usual brittish war movies tell about uk trying to catch on numbers of aircraft
21:23:14 <Eddi|zuHause> there was peaceful annexation of austria, german-inhabited areas of czechia, and then rest-czechia not-so-peaceful. and then the war started
21:23:43 <frosch123> which they did not succeed on production, but by fighting more efficient or so
21:24:13 <Eddi|zuHause> radar made a huge impact
21:24:50 <frosch123> hmm, right, there was this brittish appeacement thingie
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21:25:09 <andythenorth> frosch123: yes there is a correlation
21:25:15 <andythenorth> I found it last time this came up
21:25:50 <Eddi|zuHause> the last time i came across that, it was disputed
21:26:08 <frosch123> andythenorth: is it because for english speakers slaves usually came from the east?
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21:26:24 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yes, it was weakly evidenced
21:26:38 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: unlikely, as the name is probably older than the english language
21:26:42 <frosch123> i.e. like germany is called by the surrounding nations with the name of the germanic tribe living nearest to them or so
21:27:10 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the theory is that Slav -> slave
21:27:14 <andythenorth> rather than the reverse
21:27:15 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: latin is servus/serva, which sounds like slave
21:27:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but that does not quite explain the german word "Sklave"
21:28:03 <Eddi|zuHause> usually consonants disappear over time, rarely they appear
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21:33:37 <frosch123> [22:11] <argoneus> I'd imagine the common 18 year old doesn't know why he should shoot other 18 yo's <- btw. there are many cultures where dying for cultural/social/national reason is an honour
21:34:03 <frosch123> it's no modern-terrorism thing at all
21:34:34 <andythenorth> something futurisms anyway
21:35:25 <andythenorth> or a maglev that doesn’t suck
21:47:41 <mordant> Do Entry/Exit signals ignore block signals between them?
21:48:26 <NGC3982> What a horrible way of war reasoning.
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23:10:22 <Wolf01> i think my face has an apointment with the pillow
23:12:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm notoriously late to appointments...
continue to next day ⏵
