IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-11-06
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06:46:40 <andythenorth> morning pikka chops
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07:05:18 <supermop> do the 1990-ish coaches in IH load slower or is it in my head?
07:08:49 <supermop> i guess i wont get the answer here then
07:12:38 <Supercheese> "load slower" compared to what?
07:39:37 <supermop> the previously available car
07:40:26 <supermop> just noticed that suddenly all my trains are getting hopelessly behind their timetables
07:40:51 <supermop> and whereas a 6 day stop was sufficient before, now it needs more like 16
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07:51:27 <supermop> time to pay the piper
07:51:34 <supermop> piper being autodesk
07:52:54 <supermop> using a us credit card incurring fees on the .au store, where the software cost 50% more than on the US store...
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08:06:36 <andythenorth> they all have loading speed 5
08:06:45 <andythenorth> so maybe the higher capacity ones take longer to load
08:06:53 <andythenorth> I never bother much about loading speeds
08:07:56 <planetmaker> loading speed is in units per time. Thus at same speed a bigger wagon takes longer to load
08:09:02 <andythenorth> in that case the gen 3 coaches take nearly twice as long as gen 1
08:09:08 <andythenorth> how do people notice this stuff? :P
08:09:47 <supermop> messed up all my perfectly synchronized network!
08:10:30 <andythenorth> which GS needs a synchronized network? o_O
08:16:40 <supermop> now to decide whether to downgrade to older coaches or pad timetables by 200%
08:17:04 <Supercheese> better solution, mod the grf
08:17:16 <Supercheese> load speeds too low? raise 'em
08:17:41 <andythenorth> how do you make timetables work?
08:17:54 * andythenorth has never experienced anything except dismay
08:18:48 <andythenorth> ‘travel for’ makes absolutely no sense to me
08:18:57 <andythenorth> does the timetable modify the vehicle speed?
08:19:25 <supermop> it certainly takes patience without the 24hr clock, but i find it easier to use timetables than not
08:19:52 <andythenorth> how do you make it work with contention?
08:19:53 <Pikka> if you need to space trains, make longer signal blocks. but you don't need to space trains.
08:19:55 <supermop> as infrastructure can be a lot sparer
08:20:00 <andythenorth> you only need to space ships
08:20:05 <andythenorth> and that doesn’t work anyway
08:20:18 <andythenorth> unless you use full load
08:20:21 <supermop> i just autofill then pad a bit
08:20:26 <andythenorth> but if you’re using full load, why timetable?
08:20:37 <supermop> i dont use full load
08:20:41 <andythenorth> like tunnels, but vertical
08:20:42 <supermop> not even for iron ore
08:21:05 <andythenorth> new type: hypersonic transport
08:21:19 <andythenorth> takes off vertically, disappears, lands vertically elsewhere on map
08:21:31 <andythenorth> could just fake it with distant-join stations :P
08:21:49 <supermop> just have two platforms at the mine, and loading train leaves 5 days after an empty one arrives
08:22:12 <andythenorth> supermop: BUT THAT IS NOT 100% EFFICIENCY :O
08:22:22 <supermop> andythenorth: one is always loading
08:22:25 <andythenorth> imagine the utilisation figures
08:22:39 <andythenorth> your cost per-ton must be awful
08:22:47 <supermop> and steel mill or whatever is guaranteed to get a train every month
08:22:57 <andythenorth> your tonnage per infrastructure tile must be awful
08:23:11 <andythenorth> your ratio of payload to tare weight must be awful
08:23:15 <andythenorth> THIS IS NOT GOOD
08:23:39 <supermop> haha i dont know, i wouldnt mind if the trains drove around empty
08:23:43 <andythenorth> so should the pax cars get dibbled on loading speeds then?
08:23:50 <supermop> just gotta have some trains moving around
08:24:07 <andythenorth> constant loading total time for all generations
08:24:13 <andythenorth> or faster for older / newer
08:24:13 <supermop> andythenorth: i dont know, they load faster than pkp set i think
08:24:59 <supermop> it makes sense to me - if its a new mk4'ish' whatever sure its long with only a small door
08:25:17 <supermop> can play well with it either way
08:25:33 <andythenorth> I’m dibbling it now
08:25:56 <supermop> generally though if i a train takes 16 days to unload then load 20-30% of the people on board maybe it makes things less fun
08:26:43 <andythenorth> you can’t have new version in your game though
08:26:46 <supermop> assuming you want a town to get a train at least once a month (maybe i dont know how important that is to most people)
08:26:50 <andythenorth> unless you don’t mind ottd whining a lot about mail cars
08:27:02 <supermop> no mail in this game
08:27:16 <supermop> unless GS makes me i dont bother with mail
08:28:01 <supermop> anyway if you want 1-2 trains per month stopping at a station, you are going to need at least 2 platforms for those types of turnarounds
08:28:56 <supermop> i like that there is an actual functional difference between the cars, maybe there is value on being able to choose 3rd gen for long distance and 2nd for short
08:29:15 <andythenorth> Pikka: shameful comment about UKRS :P
08:30:06 <supermop> personally i'd be tempted to always play with super fast speeds because i cant be bothered often with that part of gameplay - just want trains coming and going from my towns in a pretty fashion
08:30:43 <andythenorth> supermop: Iron Horse doesn’t bother with that choosing crap
08:30:56 <andythenorth> but if you want short distance, it’s in a town, so you buy a metro
08:31:12 <supermop> andythenorth: yeah, and i find that i bit refreshing
08:31:16 <andythenorth> and if it’s a small route between two small towns, you buy a railcar
08:31:27 <andythenorth> stop making choices based on the small print
08:31:31 <andythenorth> make them based on the big print :P
08:31:51 <supermop> i made a train of one gridiron pulling 7 slammers
08:32:05 <andythenorth> with animated rivets
08:32:11 <supermop> to get some better loading speeds
08:32:12 <Pikka> andy: I don't know where to begin addressing nekomaster's criticisms of the new NARS. You have a go. :P
08:32:30 <andythenorth> Pikka: I was baffled
08:32:34 <supermop> its a new set people can use the old one right Pikka ?
08:32:47 <andythenorth> but I think he was drunk, high, or missing the point
08:32:55 <supermop> also i am from US and i dont really get regearing
08:33:08 <supermop> as in, why that is a thing in a newgrf
08:33:35 <supermop> i understand that a railroad's shops could put whatever gears they want in a diesel, but
08:33:49 <supermop> why in nars? idk i never played nars
08:34:23 <supermop> north american railroads are boring
08:34:27 <Pikka> NARS is the best newgrf
08:34:29 * V453000 has been complaining about max production of original industries, just got even more in my current yeti xd
08:34:34 <Pikka> if you like samey diesels from 1967
08:34:59 <Pikka> neko's main criticism seems to be that I removed too many samey diesels from 1967, there are now only about 20 of them.
08:35:05 <supermop> growing up around those trains, waving at them as a kid in the early 80s,
08:35:14 <supermop> they all looked and still look the same to me
08:35:49 <Supercheese> they are the same
08:36:08 <Supercheese> regearing was cute, not essential, but cute
08:36:24 <Supercheese> fraught with problems too
08:36:25 <Pikka> and only slightly completely game-breaking
08:36:39 <andythenorth> Pikka: I dunno, is neko representative of standard human being?
08:37:05 <supermop> now ive unfortunately got to the point where i can identify almost any car by sight, and BR diesel, etc etc, but still neither know nor care whether some big box is EMD or whoever
08:37:14 <Pikka> well he won the "I don't like it, put it back the way it was" prize, which I was expecting someone to do.
08:37:32 <Supercheese> I think at least some were expecting "old NARS but with autorefit"
08:37:44 <supermop> was old nars fun though?
08:37:46 <Supercheese> and possibly also "and with hidden trains exposed"
08:38:02 <andythenorth> old NARS 2 was fun
08:38:04 <supermop> i dont know because i never tried it
08:38:25 <andythenorth> I played with it in ~every game for about 2 years
08:38:47 <andythenorth> but then those days are gone etc
08:38:54 <Pikka> it was not fun, it was stupid and I have no idea why everyone kept playing it despite all the game-breaking BAD FEATURES. The fact that people insisted on keeping using it is the only reason I made the update.
08:38:54 * Supercheese wonders how difficult it would be to add autorefit to old nars
08:39:17 <Supercheese> someone already coded an addon methinks
08:39:19 <andythenorth> Pikka: because I ignored regearing etc
08:39:42 <supermop> so really though, why not a set of just one hood diesel each 15 years?
08:40:03 <andythenorth> I stopped playing when I realised that GP38 all the things
08:40:21 <Pikka> absolutely. GP38 is the best.
08:40:29 <Pikka> that's why Pineapple only has a GP38 :P
08:40:50 <supermop> also that huge UP thing - just looks like any other up thing? blasphemous?
08:41:18 <supermop> dont know if there is one in nars
08:41:32 <Pikka> there is a DD40AX in NARS, yes.
08:42:11 <supermop> i like that australia is not all hood units, though it seems to have some
08:42:41 <Pikka> queensland is certainly all hood units, except the electrics
08:43:29 <andythenorth> Queensland Horse
08:43:36 <Supercheese> at least the HEP is gone
08:43:37 <andythenorth> supermop: what year are you at in IH?
08:43:37 <supermop> like the two that drove through the paliament deep bore station i was in here and had me coughing for 20 minutes
08:43:39 <Supercheese> that was always bleh
08:43:44 <andythenorth> HEP was a terrible feature
08:43:57 <Supercheese> far too much realizmz
08:44:07 <andythenorth> supermop: any comments?
08:44:19 <Pikka> it was pre wagonrunningcosts though
08:44:35 <supermop> andythenorth: yes but heading out door to dinner
08:45:13 <supermop> load speed only issue
08:45:37 <supermop> but i got distracted with a passenger network and lost
08:46:45 <supermop> but i had shared running all lines freight and passenger
08:47:12 <supermop> except on container lines
08:47:40 <supermop> and electra slower than vulcan odd but fine
08:47:49 <supermop> i guess vulcan is deltic-ish
08:48:09 <andythenorth> vulcan is standard engine
08:48:14 <andythenorth> it’s best for most cases
08:48:22 <supermop> a 160kmhish electric before 1990 would be ok
08:48:38 <andythenorth> electrics are a bit nobbled until 90s
08:48:44 <supermop> but i used electra for everything that wasnt a train of slammers
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10:13:06 <lugo> besides wiping away some crocodile tears for bad features going missing in certain grfs :')
10:14:34 <andythenorth> my grf collection is now worthless
10:16:55 <lugo> so grfs are even getting worse in the future?!
10:25:27 <peter1138> Crikey, they've been doing Star Wars lego since 1999? heh
10:25:44 <andythenorth> ruined someone’s life that
10:25:55 <peter1138> Probably not George Lucas'
10:45:00 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> and what to? <-- "capacity/5" or something.
10:46:26 <Eddi|zuHause> so whatever your capacity is, it'll always load in 5 steps
10:49:33 <peter1138> How can I only have 20,503 audio tracks? :S
10:55:59 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that’s what I concluded too
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10:57:00 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: 20000 from your younger days when you grabbed everything you could get hold on, and then 500 that you actually knew you'd like before you got them :p
11:00:29 <peter1138> That must've been last month when I grabbed a load of (legal) torrents that were available.
11:01:59 <peter1138> I will get things that I've heard and liked 1 track from before, and things I haven't heard at all if I know the artist enough.
11:02:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't got new music in ages...
11:02:52 <peter1138> What about old music?
11:02:54 <Eddi|zuHause> legal or otherwise
11:03:11 <Eddi|zuHause> "new" as in "i didn't have it before"
11:03:15 <peter1138> I guess these days it is all streaming.
11:03:22 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, just checking :)
11:03:30 <peter1138> "new music is music you haven't heard before" etc
11:03:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i also haven't listened to my old music as much
11:03:52 <peter1138> My newest music is... er...
11:03:59 <peter1138> Hmm, stuff that me & Belugas did the other night.
11:04:54 <Eddi|zuHause> so other than the radio in the car, and occasional youtube flyby...
11:04:58 <peter1138> Hmm, an Ian Dury compilation for £1 from a charity shop.
11:06:18 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea who that is
11:07:02 <supermop> i didnt bring any music down here
11:07:17 <supermop> neither LPs nor HDD full of tracks
11:07:52 <supermop> just listen to whatever fiancee is streaming on spotify
11:08:53 <peter1138> Yeah, all streaming as I said :)
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11:10:22 <peter1138> REASONS TO BE CHEERFUL, part 3
11:13:48 <peter1138> hitttttttttttttttttttttt meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
11:14:04 <planetmaker> Feeling better now? :D
11:14:05 <peter1138> with your rhythm stick
11:14:18 <planetmaker> oh, you should have said before ;)
11:18:02 <peter1138> Nice idea, bad implmentation :p
11:33:58 <supermop> Pikka: whats the best way to buy ram or an ssd while down here?
11:35:43 <supermop> does newegg ship here?
11:44:59 <supermop> hmm anyone have an opinion between sandisk/intel/samsung?
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11:56:51 <Xaroth|Work> samsung/intel/sandisk, in that order
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12:05:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a samsung SSD
12:05:50 <Eddi|zuHause> not noticed any problems
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12:17:21 <argoneus> I have a kingston SSD
12:20:30 <andythenorth> loads of Crucial ones
12:20:38 <andythenorth> they seem to have a slowdown ~12 months
12:20:49 <andythenorth> which might be a defect, or lack of TRIM support on OS X
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12:29:13 <peter1138> OS X doesn't do TRIM? :S
12:29:54 <supermop_> why do i have an underscore now and why did i just see myself quit?
12:30:01 <andythenorth> glitch in the matrix
12:30:25 <andythenorth> it does TRIM, but only if you have a stock apple drive, or you enable it with 3rd party utility
12:30:34 <andythenorth> but then you have to read loads of agonised forum threads
12:30:38 <andythenorth> about how it broke your drive
12:30:39 <peter1138> /: 9910779904 bytes were trimmed
12:30:43 <andythenorth> or about how not using it broke your driev
12:31:09 <andythenorth> I just assumed my SSD was disposable and enabled it
12:31:13 <peter1138> I suppose I could change my / to be mounted with discard.
12:31:27 <peter1138> Yeah, assume any disk is disposable really.
12:31:31 <andythenorth> really, £250 / year to keep ALL MY STUFF EVER
12:31:56 <peter1138> I have issues with older servers that take 80pin SCA SCSI drives :(
12:32:10 <peter1138> Because, you know, replacing stuff costs money... sigh.
12:32:19 <andythenorth> replace the server
12:33:56 <peter1138> Oh for god's sake, they're still accusing Saville of more shit.
12:35:59 <argoneus> can you put SSDs into RAID?
12:36:36 <andythenorth> of course you can
12:36:48 <andythenorth> common cloud hosting set up
12:37:15 <peter1138> [ 2.421812] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] 8448300 512-byte logical blocks: (4.32 GB/4.02 GiB)
12:37:18 <peter1138> JESUS FUCKING CHRIST
12:37:24 <peter1138> Why is that still in service :S
12:37:57 <Eddi|zuHause> that is so ancient they produced disk sizes in GiB?
12:38:44 <Eddi|zuHause> just copy that entire thing on a virtual server
12:38:49 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody will ever notice :p
12:39:58 <Eddi|zuHause> like in star trek 9 :p
12:43:10 <Pikka> supermop_, some of us go to shops and stuff like it's the 19th century
12:55:28 <Eddi|zuHause> that got rid of him as well
12:56:55 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Star Trek ..9? :E
13:00:24 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, remember this line: 12:31 <@peter1138> I have issues with older servers that take 80pin SCA SCSI drives :(
13:00:45 <peter1138> That means ALL those drives are only in GB capacities.
13:01:47 <Eddi|zuHause> what i meant was that's in 1024 based units, not in 1000
13:02:02 <peter1138> Pfft, that's Linux for you.
13:02:58 <Eddi|zuHause> nowadays when you buy a 3TB drive, it's 3 000 000 000 000 bytes
13:03:45 <Eddi|zuHause> which is like 10% off actual 3TiB
13:04:23 <Eddi|zuHause> but yours is actual 4GiB
13:10:45 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: do you mean 80%?
13:11:42 <b_jonas> that's why my three hard disks in the home computer, with capacities 250GB, 1TB, 2TB resp, give a total capacity of 3.0TiB
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13:31:04 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: for each prefix you lose 2.4% (1.024-1), so K: 2.4%, M: 4.8%, G: 7.2%, T: 9.6%
13:34:20 <Eddi|zuHause> these values differ slightly if you calculate with 1/1.024
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13:36:28 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: you'll notice that 250GB is around 10% of 3TB
13:40:04 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the same kind of BAD FEATURE as rounding supermarket prices to .99
13:42:19 <NGC3982> "legend för godsflöden"
13:42:47 <NGC3982> Can't find the English translation. That Goods matrix in the map sub menue. How long has it been there? Haven't seen it before.
13:42:53 <NGC3982> And i can't figure out what it ..does.
13:44:19 <Eddi|zuHause> it shows you the cargodist network for that cargo
13:45:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and finding translations is easy, grep src/lang/<language>.txt for your text, look up the ID it's given there, and then grep for that ID in english.txt
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13:56:14 <argoneus> but rounding prices to .99 has a psychological effect
13:56:16 <argoneus> they don't do it for lulz
13:57:10 <argoneus> that insane amounts of research go even into things like how high to put things on a shelf in a store
13:57:16 <Eddi|zuHause> sure, so is rounding HD sizes 10% up
13:57:45 <argoneus> or that in most supermarkets, the things people buy the most, e.g. bread, are in the furthest corner of the shop usually
13:57:53 <argoneus> so you have to walk through all the other things and you pick them up
13:57:56 <peter1138> Heh, if I buy something on Bandcamp I deliberately round up to the nearest £.
13:59:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i once returned something costing 15,99 to a shop and bought something for 19,99, and the cashier got horribly confused when the difference came out as 4€ instead of 5€
13:59:57 <SpComb> peter1138: a bit of parted and rsync and grub-install and she'll be good
14:00:21 <SpComb> the virtual machine disk
14:00:37 <peter1138> What virtual machine disk?
14:00:58 <Eddi|zuHause> the one that you're copying the ancient server to
14:01:55 <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause: Isn't the HD sizes thing a difference between kB and kiB?
14:02:36 <blathijs> And isn't that more like 24/1024*100=2,3% up?
14:02:58 <Eddi|zuHause> you arguing about 3rd significant digits?
14:03:52 <andythenorth> 99p was to cause the till to be opened
14:04:04 <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause │ sure, so is rounding HD sizes 10% up <-- No, I was responding to that. But I should have read further back before opening my mound
14:05:12 <peter1138> And virtual disks would be using either files or lvm, not fucking around with partitions on a physical volume.
14:05:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that sounds like a stupid reason
14:06:09 <SpComb> well, you have a partition table within the VM disk, to have it boot
14:06:12 <andythenorth> might be urban myth
14:06:28 <peter1138> SpComb, not sure... what you are talking about.
14:06:46 <peter1138> The disk is already partitioned...
14:07:53 <peter1138> andythenorth, nothing to do with option a till, that's ridiculous.
14:08:12 <andythenorth> comes up in most of the reference material though
14:08:28 <andythenorth> i.e. the 2 things I found on google :P
14:08:36 <andythenorth> one of which is probably based on the other
14:09:15 <peter1138> Hmm, Zalman went tits up.
14:10:19 <blathijs> peter1138: Pity, they made good stuff
14:14:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's the first time i ever heard that.
14:15:09 <andythenorth> sounds similar to the reason we have QWERTY
14:15:14 <Eddi|zuHause> while the psychological argument is perfectly logical
14:15:36 <Eddi|zuHause> the open till argument is just terrible
14:19:59 <blathijs> The psychological argument is probably unlikely for people that under-estimate their own influentuability (?)
14:22:05 <argoneus> you can sell 800 TB disks
14:22:11 <argoneus> and in fineprint just write
14:22:19 <argoneus> (we define 1 byte as 2 bits)
14:24:02 <planetmaker> no, you cannot do that
14:24:22 <planetmaker> as it would be ruled as deception and illegal
14:24:38 <blathijs> In the end, it's about what the judge would think about it (and you can guess what they'll rule about something like that)
14:25:14 <argoneus> a byte is not 8 bits
14:25:25 <argoneus> so if it wasn't fineprint
14:25:27 <planetmaker> maybe you would even be charged with fraud, thus not only civil law, but criminal law
14:25:56 <argoneus> even if you called it
14:26:05 <planetmaker> you cannot simply re-define words in your language
14:26:32 <argoneus> it's not re-defining
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14:26:36 <argoneus> a byte is not defined as 8 bits
14:26:45 <argoneus> you can define a byte to be 30 bits if you want
14:26:56 <argoneus> there isn't a bit count definition
14:27:14 <argoneus> so if you said "1000 TB disk with 2-bit bytes!"
14:27:23 <argoneus> it's not even fraud, because you are not deceiving anyone
14:28:13 <planetmaker> luckily it's not for you to decide that ;)
14:28:34 <__ln__> argoneus: the french are prepared for that.
14:28:37 <argoneus> I have no intent of deceiving uninformed people
14:28:47 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: it's definitely fraud
14:28:49 <argoneus> it's just that I don't see how it wouldn't stand legally
14:29:00 <argoneus> or is there such a thing as "abusing people being uninformed / dumb"?
14:29:10 <Eddi|zuHause> or deceiving advertisment
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14:29:45 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: at least the german law says "there may be nothing 'surprising' or unusual in the fine print"
14:29:46 <argoneus> it's no more fraud imho than selling an item for twice the price and having a 50% sale
14:30:05 <argoneus> it just feels unethical
14:30:16 <planetmaker> that's different. There you don't promise a property of the product you don't actually fulfill
14:30:17 <argoneus> but no one can tell you "a byte must be 8 bits", because it doesn't
14:30:36 <argoneus> there's a reason the term "octal" exists
14:30:55 <planetmaker> there's also a reason a difference between technical terms and every day language exists
14:30:56 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a technical definition on what a byte is
14:31:04 <Eddi|zuHause> people expect that to be the same everywhere
14:31:12 <argoneus> but it doesn't say anywhere a byte is 8 bits
14:31:24 <Eddi|zuHause> everything deviating from that is misleading/surprising/unusual and thus not allowed
14:31:34 <planetmaker> that's the common definition of byte. You'll find it everywhere where you look up the meaning of byte, argoneus
14:31:58 <argoneus> The byte /ˈbaɪt/ is a unit of digital information in computing and telecommunications that most commonly consists of eight bits.
14:32:03 <argoneus> emphasis on "most commonly"
14:32:04 <planetmaker> and then you find there also "sometimes, it was used with other number of bits..." which are definitely edgy edge cases
14:32:13 <argoneus> it's not really edgy edge
14:32:21 <argoneus> an ascii byte is 7 bits
14:33:00 <Eddi|zuHause> ASCII says there are 7 bits of data in your 8 bit byte
14:33:03 <planetmaker> even the 8088 had 8 bit bytes. with the lower 7 bits being ascii
14:33:33 <argoneus> ascii used to be 7 bit
14:33:39 <argoneus> before they made it standard 8
14:33:49 <Eddi|zuHause> some protocols like SATA may transfer 10 bits for each 8 bit of data
14:34:34 <Eddi|zuHause> so 600 mbit/s are actually 60 MB/s
14:35:00 <argoneus> so laws / courts cover common sense?
14:35:11 <argoneus> as in, the guy claiming "I thought a byte was 8 bits" would stand in court?
14:35:18 <blathijs> argoneus: Even if a byte is not necessarily 8 bits (not sure about that) - it is _almost always_ 8 bits and can be expected to be 8 bits, which is what counts in advertising / commercial agreements
14:35:20 <planetmaker> I would bet on that, yes
14:35:26 <argoneus> I was never in court, so I don't know
14:35:33 <argoneus> (nor was I interested in it that much)
14:36:24 <argoneus> for me or you a byte may not be 8 bits, but for my mother a byte is 8 bits, and if someone tried to trick my mother on that, they'd probably lose?
14:36:26 <planetmaker> if you deviate from the norm, you have to clearly and explicitly note that. Which cannot mean it's only in the fine print
14:36:49 <planetmaker> in Europe they would
14:37:29 <Eddi|zuHause> many european countries also have laws that you can't advertise stuff in imperial units but must use SI units
14:39:00 <Eddi|zuHause> which most notably affected computer monitors, which for some reason were advertised in inches instead of cm, like TV monitors always were
14:43:47 <argoneus> I have no idea how large the equivalent of a 17 inch display is
14:44:26 <Xaroth|Work> give or take 43.2cm
14:49:39 <peter1138> Yeah, the conversion is obvious, but the visualization of it isn't.
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15:10:35 <planetmaker> means you know it all. You just can't access that knowledge :P
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17:45:38 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27057 trunk/src/lang/latin.txt (2014-11-06 17:45:32 UTC)
17:45:39 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:40 <DorpsGek> latin - 2 changes by Supercheese
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18:30:43 <Eddi|zuHause> that flag hanging from a building somewhat resembles... other flags... that were hanging from buildings :p
18:31:27 <Eddi|zuHause> especially in the center of berlin :p
18:31:40 <frosch123> it is only red and white, not black
18:32:19 <andythenorth> is cat red and white?
18:32:35 <frosch123> after blending that's the most likely colour
18:32:41 <Eddi|zuHause> there probably are cats that are red and white
18:32:51 <Eddi|zuHause> if you count orange as red
18:33:18 <Eddi|zuHause> but only female cats may be red white and black
18:33:42 <andythenorth> what useful info for you all :P
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18:52:45 <peter1138> Why is CAN's Monster Movie album labeled "THE CAN"? :S
18:53:44 <peter1138> (And I expect all German people, at least, to have heard of CAN)
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19:02:06 <andythenorth> do I need to understand programming?
19:02:51 <Alberth> start from nocargoal or SV ?
19:03:14 <andythenorth> Zuu has a minimal GS
19:04:09 <Alberth> that likely does nothing
19:08:56 * andythenorth needs a collaborator
19:09:10 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: so what is CAN?
19:14:26 * andythenorth has yet another GS idea
19:14:42 <andythenorth> player is issued a number of challenges to be completed in 5 years
19:14:55 <andythenorth> with penalties if failed
19:15:10 <andythenorth> then next 5 year plan is issued
19:15:56 <Alberth> start with one challenge at a time?
19:17:40 <andythenorth> Alberth: probably a simple one initially
19:17:53 <andythenorth> I can’t see how to ensure the first challenge is completable
19:18:01 <andythenorth> unless it’s a boring pax transport goal
19:18:26 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: apparently a german band from the 70s, which got popular in uk
19:18:53 <Alberth> andythenorth: put it in some range, distance between A and B, amount between C and D
19:18:55 <frosch123> can't say i know any of the titles
19:19:19 <andythenorth> GS design is really unappetising because it happens in abstract
19:19:34 <andythenorth> no idea of map, industries, cargos, locations, vehicles, dates etc
19:19:42 <Alberth> for bonus, you can check if there are huge mountains in between
19:20:08 <Alberth> but players are quite inventive if you give them room
19:20:33 <Wolf01> mh, steam is teasing me to play railroad tycoon 2
19:20:41 <andythenorth> it’s boring imho
19:20:42 <Alberth> ie transport X tonnes of Y can be done anywhere at the map, players will find a good spot
19:21:00 <andythenorth> Alberth: true, it’s just lacking something
19:21:17 <andythenorth> “El Presidente commands you to deliver 5,000 tonnes of steel to Jingleville”
19:21:55 <Taytay> I'm trying to use 32bpp with openttd 1.4.4
19:22:15 <Taytay> I don't find any uptodate doc
19:22:26 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: oh, 70's... no, that's the *wrong* germany then :)
19:22:29 <Alberth> well, only specifying a detination leaves all sources free for choosing
19:22:56 <Alberth> Taytay: docs? just download zbase or a newgrf with 32bpp sprites
19:23:00 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: usually i also know tracks from the 70s, but non of these
19:23:39 <andythenorth> shall I call this 5 Year Plan?
19:23:43 <andythenorth> or something else?
19:24:01 <andythenorth> this is bad news for newgrfs btw :P
19:24:01 <Taytay> Alberth: thanks ! zbase have all standard sprites ?
19:24:02 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: sure, i know *some* songs from the 70s, but it's not really my area of interest
19:24:13 <Alberth> mkdir 5yp; cd 5yp; hg init :p
19:24:31 <frosch123> i am sure leading digit will breaks stuff again
19:24:31 <Alberth> Taytay: it's a base set, I 'd hope so :)
19:24:42 <frosch123> hmm, though maybe 2cc already broke those
19:25:04 <Alberth> hmm, p5y wouldbe safer I guess :)
19:25:26 <frosch123> andythenorth: there was a bureaucracy ai
19:25:39 <frosch123> only built routes after being instructed via subsidy
19:25:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: every railroad tycoon without dispatcher operation (signals) is probably useless.
19:25:56 <frosch123> so, bureaucracy gs?
19:26:06 <andythenorth> Wolf01: RT3 much better imo
19:26:15 <Taytay> Alberth: cool ! thanks ! (i played openttd old version like 0.4/0.5... I have a lot of things to rediscover :)
19:26:18 <Wolf01> Eddi|zuHause, that's why I'm stuck with OTTD
19:26:21 <andythenorth> RT2 is a sub-par OpenTTD
19:26:32 <andythenorth> I spent all my time wondering where the other transport types were
19:26:34 <andythenorth> or watching it crash
19:26:47 <Alberth> Taytay: no worries, it's still about making train networks :)
19:26:50 <andythenorth> frosch123: what does it do? o_O
19:26:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i probably spent half an hour in RT2...
19:27:03 <Eddi|zuHause> and then i got fed up
19:27:10 <Eddi|zuHause> with all the economy and share crap
19:27:12 <andythenorth> yeah, but It Has Rotation
19:27:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and not enough train stuff
19:27:21 <Taytay> Alberth: :) I think there was less train signals
19:27:31 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you’re thinking of RT3
19:27:41 <Wolf01> I have RT3 too, but I need to dl it
19:27:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never played RT3
19:27:50 <frosch123> andythenorth: instruct you to build specifiy routes, ideally screwing you over with the requirements
19:28:02 <frosch123> like picking industries with 30 height level difference
19:28:09 <Alberth> Taytay: yeah, the old block and pre-signals are now obsolete :)
19:28:17 <Wolf01> I have Sid Meier's Railroads! too
19:28:24 <Taytay> Alberth: oki ! thanks !
19:28:31 <andythenorth> frosch123: winner
19:28:35 <frosch123> andythenorth: how about picking routes by checking the linear connection between them for obstacles
19:29:01 <frosch123> and then pick them with water, mountains and towns in the path
19:29:02 <Wolf01> the funny thing is that I only played (O)TTD, LoMo and a little Simutrans
19:29:07 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: or use a pathfinder lib to check the "best" route?
19:29:34 <Alberth> andythenorth: or giving the user a few alternatives, so he can ignore the impossible ones
19:29:37 <frosch123> yeah, check that there is no good route :p
19:29:41 <Taytay> Alberth: I don't know if I can play with 32bpp ... I'm too old :(
19:29:59 <andythenorth> offer 3, require 2 to be met to advance
19:30:06 <frosch123> Taytay: you picked the wrong guy to complain about age :p
19:30:07 <Alberth> Taytay: I don't like 32bpp
19:30:09 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: "EvilGS": next goal is always the one that is furthest away from your current network
19:30:28 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that wouldn’t last long :P
19:30:36 <andythenorth> you’d span links across the map really fast
19:30:41 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: "far" is no good metric
19:30:46 <Taytay> There is any webinterface to manage server
19:30:50 <frosch123> it should be "near, but hard to reach"
19:31:00 <Taytay> which can who map (like google map)
19:31:08 <Taytay> which can show map (like google map)
19:33:00 <Taytay> Wolf01: OH, okki. So, is there any python librairie to read saved games ?
19:33:43 <Alberth> unlikely, the save game format constantly changes
19:33:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Taytay: there may be patches in the forum that you can use to export the map from a running server
19:34:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Taytay: or there is "pngtile" which can process a giant screenshot
19:34:35 <Alberth> frosch123: do you have a FS number nearby for a UI redesign?
19:35:03 <Eddi|zuHause> server may need special arguments to be able to output a screenshot
19:35:59 <Alberth> oh, how convenient, thanks!
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19:44:27 <andythenorth> no GS for andythenorth
19:44:41 <andythenorth> it is some spectacularly ugly python
19:51:09 * peter1138 puts his penis away
19:53:32 <Wolf01> yay, I just beated last year's record of lego sets purchased
19:56:14 <Alberth> and Christmas has still to come :)
19:57:02 <Wolf01> no, this weekend has still to come
19:57:17 <Wolf01> and the next one and so on
19:58:50 <Wolf01> my advent calendar has 24 weeks
19:59:08 <andythenorth> peter1138: not a minute too late either
19:59:14 <andythenorth> Wolf01: you bought 0?
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20:49:26 <peter1138> I should wipe all evidence of rgb company colours.
20:55:19 <peter1138> Hmm, does NARS 2.5 make use of any railtypes?
21:10:04 <NGC3982> "Nars" sounds like a high school insult.
21:20:17 <peter1138> RailRoad Tycoon (TM) - Version 455.02
21:38:06 <peter1138> Heh, didn't know the Del shortcut came from TTD.
21:39:33 <frosch123> really? i thought that would belong to sticky windows
21:41:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i've come across that before OpenTTD
21:41:31 <Eddi|zuHause> but i never actually played pure TTD
21:41:46 <peter1138> Playing it now, in dosbox.
21:41:56 <peter1138> Time to fix some bugs ;)
22:07:14 <Rubidium> double ROT13 is way better
22:10:53 <frosch123> where is that from? :p
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22:14:51 * Rubidium wonders why such information needs to be shared with merchants in any case
22:15:17 <frosch123> oh my, googling for base64 encryption results in a lot of scary stuff
22:15:32 <frosch123> code samples, and peoply who are thankful for them
22:15:40 <Rubidium> (at least here the most common method of internet payment doesn't send any bank account information to the merchent besides the bank you want to pay with)
22:16:31 <frosch123> well, i guess credit cards are an about 80 year old technology
22:17:02 <Rubidium> yup... I only use creditcards in less developed countries ;)
22:17:36 <Rubidium> sorry Belugas for not being able to pay in many places here with your creditcard
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22:18:46 <frosch123> home-made encryption in php :)
22:20:09 <frosch123> i wonder whether the author came up with that on their own, or whether they got it from a medieval book
22:20:25 <andythenorth> "I forgot where I got this from but these 2 methods are pretty handy."
22:20:40 <peter1138> I've seen a version of that from ASP.
22:21:54 <Rubidium> well... that encryption is at least better than plain base64_encode or ROT13
22:26:11 <peter1138> Yes, it's used by SagePay as a "if your language is too stupid to have libraries, you can protect values with this" system.
22:26:49 <peter1138> Where encryption would be done horribly in VB, or implemented as a COM object, so still done horribly.
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