IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-10-20
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00:00:58 <peter1138> "The Monuments of Mars! has very complex graphics and animation, therefore it will not run fast enough on any 8088 CPU IBM or compatible. In other words you must have a system equipped with an 8086, 80286, or 80386.
00:01:50 <Eddi|zuHause> so "C" stands for "complex"? :p
00:02:11 <peter1138> Eh, normally just 'crap'
00:03:17 <glx> it's for color (even if it's ugly)
00:04:24 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, each of the 4-colour sets had very opposing colours
00:05:15 <Eddi|zuHause> the most common one had magenta and cyan, or so
00:05:36 <Eddi|zuHause> and black, and i forgoth the other one
00:06:05 <Eddi|zuHause> might have been yellow
00:06:05 <peter1138> black, magenta, cyan & white
00:06:13 <peter1138> black, red, green, brown
00:06:57 <glx> and black was "modifiable"
00:07:14 <glx> could be any of the 16 colors
00:08:10 <peter1138> red cyan and white was also there, but not used often
00:09:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't really think of a game that used anythong other than the magenta one
00:09:47 <glx> yeah for me cga means magenta
00:14:46 <Eddi|zuHause> and then i remember going through all kinds of hoops to get an SVGA card for playing sim city 2000
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05:30:31 <supermop> opening tons of dwgs in rhino and just saving them again to remove the autocad student version watermark...
05:30:51 <supermop> i really need to go ahead and cough up for a current regular autocad
05:56:06 <V453000> draftsight works moderately well
05:56:39 <V453000> we use it at work as a replacement of autocad
05:59:34 <supermop> i usually font have too much need for acad at home
05:59:56 <supermop> but a 2011 student version is feeling way behind the times
06:00:26 <supermop> particularly as i haven't been able to consider myself a student by any stretch of the word since 2007
06:00:35 <V453000> what exactly do you need to do? just open dwgs and prepare them for import into 3D?
06:00:48 <supermop> no this is all 2d work
06:01:02 <V453000> aha I thought you import building projects XD
06:01:11 <supermop> and i do linework much faster in acad than rhino
06:01:34 <V453000> that is understandable I guess
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06:02:27 <supermop> but as i need to create dwgs that others can open without propagating the student version watermark, i open and save it in rhino to strip out that particular metadata
06:03:00 <supermop> my current freelance work is more urban planning focused so i am only concerned with the footprint of the house
06:03:19 <supermop> run into the same issue with revit though
06:03:44 <V453000> well, autodesk is great but it is a bit expensive :d
06:04:06 <V453000> I wouldnt use 3ds max if I didnt have it at work either
06:04:16 <supermop> i dont make nearly enough per year to write off an autocad purchase as business expense
06:05:00 <supermop> i love rhino as in addition to great nurbs modelling and parametrics with grasshopper - their software is not too expensive
06:05:18 <supermop> and if you are a student you can buy it cheap, and use forever
06:05:28 <supermop> without it stamping your files
06:06:11 <supermop> also when buying the student version you just mail a check to the guy who wrote/founded rhino
06:06:23 <supermop> at least that was the case when i bought my copy
06:08:56 <V453000> well our company has like 200 autocad licenses already so I guess 3 licenses of 3ds max was just a bit of extra from the autodesk resellers
06:09:21 <V453000> I tried cinema4D and Blender, liked cinema a lot but it was just so different :D
06:09:30 <V453000> not even talking about blender, that is totally another world
06:14:38 <supermop> i never messed around with blender - i guess i should
06:14:54 <supermop> but id need to reformat my resume then
06:15:20 <supermop> i stupidly went with this super minimal design back in university
06:15:30 <supermop> and have never bothered to redo it
06:15:57 <supermop> so as i work more jobs and learn more i have to cram it into the same small space on the page
06:16:16 <supermop> meanwhile there is like a 2.5" margin of whitespace on the left....
06:17:03 <supermop> there is probably a lesson in there as to why architects earn less than engineers...
06:18:23 <V453000> blender is great but I dont know how many 3rd party plugins are there for it yet
06:20:28 <V453000> and the controlling is so different that I didnt really have the energy to just randomly dig into it
06:21:11 <supermop> opened it one time, got confused
06:21:32 <supermop> not worth learning unless i needed to
06:22:21 <supermop> really cant be bothered to do any rigging for openttd though
06:22:46 <supermop> id make models and hand them off to be textured, lighted, and rendered
06:23:03 <supermop> not sure how compatible formats are though
06:23:25 <supermop> but if someone had a big blender project and wanted modelling help
06:23:26 <V453000> well it depends what you want to do obviously :)
06:23:36 <supermop> i'd be cool with supplying 3dm files
06:23:44 <V453000> I personally dont have the goal n1 as "create the newGRF"
06:23:52 <V453000> my goal n1 is to learn stuff and enjoy doing it
06:24:00 <V453000> creating the newgrf gives the enjoy doing it
06:24:20 <V453000> since I enjoy doing characters etc, rigging robots and stuff is just one of the important things
06:24:37 <V453000> especially if you intend to create buildings, there isnt much to rig on them anyway
06:25:06 <V453000> I dont really know rhino but I believe exporting things through some .obj might somewhat work
06:25:49 <supermop> i want to try making some stl files for shapeways too
06:26:05 <supermop> i need to make a bracket for my hario hand grinder
06:26:26 <supermop> stereolithography format seems to me what most 3d printers take
06:28:27 <supermop> that or make enough money freelancing to buy a more serious grinder
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06:31:38 <V453000> btw peter1138 the anti-alpha nazi: I found a way to make my sprites on ground 100% precise :P
06:31:58 <V453000> on all edges not just the front one
06:33:02 <peter1138> It actually doesn't matter for your sprites because they're not ground sprites :p
06:33:09 <peter1138> But if they were it would.
06:34:56 <V453000> supermop, yet another rendering in masks and stages
06:35:08 <V453000> then putting it back together in postproduction
06:35:38 <V453000> it doesnt probably matter much peter but I think it is still better to have it match
06:38:56 <V453000> and it could also output real groundsprites just as a side effect :P
06:39:07 <V453000> not that making those is a lot of work regardless
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07:08:33 <peter1138> red is where pixels aren't fully drawn
07:08:46 <peter1138> Except the lighthouse
07:08:56 <peter1138> This is a special version, it uses 8bpp colour 240.
07:09:01 <V453000> wont happen with my landscape :)
07:10:16 <planetmaker> got that patch for me, peter1138 ? :D
07:10:23 <planetmaker> might come in handy
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07:20:26 <peter1138> Works by filling the drawpixelinfo area with colour 240, and then no drawing *any* pixels with alpha.
07:20:54 <peter1138> So don't use an antialiased font :p
07:21:45 <peter1138> Anything with AA edges looks weird, but yeah, it highlights the bad edges.
07:21:55 <peter1138> And indeed the holes in some buildings.
07:23:00 <peter1138> 32bpp-anim only as well, of course.
07:23:13 <peter1138> If you turn animation off I guess it will draw everything normally, heh.
07:24:08 <planetmaker> boring without animation :)
07:24:11 <peter1138> Ahh you still get the red, though now at clear.
07:27:37 <peter1138> Bah, zBase airports don't animate :(
07:31:41 <planetmaker> water doesn't either
07:32:21 <V453000> yeti will get some wtf alpha on the top everywher :P
07:33:41 <peter1138> they're not ground sprites
07:35:56 <V453000> you only check for the problem alpha
07:36:09 <peter1138> Something like that ;p
07:36:18 <peter1138> Basically it fills in an area to be drawn with colour 240.
07:36:37 <peter1138> Then draws the sprites on top, skipping anything with alpha != 255
07:37:02 <peter1138> So the colour 240 "shows through" the gaps in the ground sprites.
09:22:58 <peter1138> "I've tried 2048x1024 but its still to small for me."
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09:50:48 <peter1138> Gotta love the town name generator.
09:51:16 <peter1138> Could do with an option for less towns on large maps though, I think.
09:54:51 <peter1138> Oh, there's an exact number, derr
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10:55:54 <peter1138> Hmm, how do I get the (approx) centre tile of the main viewport?
10:57:26 <Eddi|zuHause> the viewport is aligned to the top left corner
10:58:06 <Eddi|zuHause> so to get the center you need that reference point and the size of the viewport (plus zoom level)
10:59:49 <planetmaker> I'm actually pretty sure we have already a function which converts screen coordinates to tile coordinates
11:00:11 <planetmaker> which also takes into account the height of the tile(s)
11:01:13 <b_jonas> yeah, you surely have such a function because I can control the game with the mouse
11:05:55 <peter1138> Yeah I was hoping there was some function that does it all already for something else :p
11:06:17 <peter1138> I can't even remember how to get the main viewport now :p
11:11:16 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the least programmatical solution would be to click in the center of the screen with the ?-tool :p
11:13:46 <b_jonas> that might not be the main viewport
11:14:53 <Eddi|zuHause> but it may be an entry point into looking where the desired function is
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12:10:01 <andythenorth> should fix those zeps
12:10:04 <andythenorth> been making trucks
12:10:23 <andythenorth> ‘crane truck’ or ‘low loader truck’ or something else?
12:10:31 <Pikka> would it be inappropriate to point out to "baldy's boss" that he is a complete towering intellect?
12:11:00 <Pikka> maybe just "low loader"?
12:11:17 <andythenorth> Pikka: I take no opinion on forums :P
12:11:53 <andythenorth> it’s a new thing I’m trying
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12:12:27 <Pikka> my internet experience has become immesurably better since I adblocked the comments section on youtube. :P
12:12:58 <andythenorth> you are not alone in that
12:13:10 <andythenorth> but I enjoy them too much
12:13:19 <andythenorth> BBC News comments otoh, always a mistake to read
12:13:31 * andythenorth just learnt some things about FIRS
12:15:57 <peter1138> Sounds like a BAD FEATURE.
12:17:00 <andythenorth> why do people assume ottd devs troll?
12:17:09 <andythenorth> afaict, the only people who troll are me and MB
12:17:40 <peter1138> Who assumes we troll?
12:17:49 <andythenorth> people in forums
12:19:35 <peter1138> Also that guy's map looks ridiculous.
12:19:51 <Pikka> but not in a trolly way.
12:20:15 <Pikka> v doesn't troll, he yetis.
12:20:24 <andythenorth> v is just abusive
12:20:29 <Pikka> it's like trolling but hairier.
12:35:56 <planetmaker> swiss-made. swiss-priced :D
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18:15:48 <V453000> andythenorth: having a diesel AND electric engine is quite a GOOD FEATURE
18:16:00 <V453000> no pathfinding borkening when you forget to electrify etc
18:16:31 <andythenorth> RL has only 1000hp on the diesel
18:16:34 <V453000> also iron hores is missing slow powerful trains :(
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18:20:55 <peter1138> (278.18 KiB) Not downloaded yet
18:20:58 <peter1138> that's kinda large :S
18:23:54 <peter1138> diesel / electric hybrids?
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18:43:14 <andythenorth> V453000: slow would need low wagon speeds
18:43:31 <V453000> no slow just needs a powerful train which is slow
18:43:44 <andythenorth> why would you use it?
18:43:50 <andythenorth> just use the faster one
18:43:55 <V453000> long trains, short curves, extreme throughput
18:44:14 <V453000> speed isnt nearly everything :P
18:45:40 <andythenorth> well in another roster
18:45:44 <andythenorth> we can have slow things
18:47:17 <V453000> it just fits the idea of fast/medium/strong
18:47:28 <V453000> atm screamer vs. double juice is solid competition
18:47:40 <V453000> having something even slower but even faster would be nice addition
18:48:47 <andythenorth> I think it would make Double Juice redundant
18:48:58 <andythenorth> idea with IH is that there’s always one obvious choice… :)
18:49:19 <V453000> one obvious choice is meh
18:49:23 <V453000> 2-3 at least is fun :P
18:49:36 <V453000> double juice would stay as it is :)
18:49:39 <andythenorth> I don’t find choosing fun
18:49:43 <andythenorth> building routes is fun
18:49:47 <andythenorth> winning GS is fun
18:50:22 <andythenorth> hmm there’s not always one obvious choice though
18:50:44 <andythenorth> Raven vs. High Flyer
18:51:03 <andythenorth> Electra vs. Northcock
18:51:19 <peter1138> you want powerful, fast or cheap.
18:51:32 <peter1138> cheap to run that is.
18:52:16 <andythenorth> cheap is narrow gauge
18:52:41 <andythenorth> what’s cheap for? :)
18:54:03 <peter1138> for when there is not enough cargo to warrant fast or powerful
18:57:16 <andythenorth> Alberth: having fun with mhl? :)
18:57:34 <Alberth> yeah, 12 high mountains :)
18:58:01 <andythenorth> fwiw, I thought we’d get 32 levels
18:58:08 <andythenorth> 255 is…..an excess :D
18:58:46 <Alberth> 11 is clearly not enough :p
18:58:51 <peter1138> it saves having a future of people pestering for more height levels and running non-vanilla servers...
18:59:11 <peter1138> Which is, I assume, the only reason we have 4096x4096 maps now.
18:59:22 <andythenorth> squeaky wheel gets the grease
18:59:25 <peter1138> Though probably 8192 or 16384 will be "needed" soon.
18:59:34 <Alberth> you think that will stop people wanting 8192?
19:00:24 <peter1138> Ah well, at least they can continue complaining that a 20 year old game is using far too much CPU for some reason...
19:00:27 <andythenorth> we should open source it
19:00:36 <andythenorth> and let users make their own mods
19:01:41 <peter1138> Nah, everything should be possible via NewGRFs.
19:01:52 <andythenorth> only if we make them xml
19:02:02 <andythenorth> how do I do an if statement in xml?
19:02:28 <peter1138> Actually it would be json now, that's the latest thing I hear...
19:06:39 <frosch123> andythenorth: more than 32 levels makes somewhat sense if there is a gradient across the whole map
19:07:16 <frosch123> i.e. no hills of size > 32, but north/south end difference of > 32
19:07:39 <frosch123> but i guess the map gen cannot handle that :p
19:07:54 <peter1138> Map gen needs love.
19:07:58 <frosch123> we should extent the water/land edge setting to include some height levels
19:08:12 <peter1138> I should try porting that tectonic simulator.
19:08:18 <Alberth> 250 seems sufficient, I think
19:08:20 <planetmaker> really, frosch123 ?
19:08:35 <frosch123> planetmaker: if in doubt, no :p
19:08:54 <frosch123> but not sure what exactly you are refering to :)
19:09:12 <planetmaker> we rather need a pencil or brush which allows to lower or rise terrain in SE
19:09:24 <planetmaker> I referred to the need to set level on map borders
19:09:44 <frosch123> a mapgen is imho generally better than any se
19:10:22 <frosch123> planetmaker: why not? "sea"/"plains"/"mountains" at border
19:10:54 <planetmaker> well, it's a vicious circle, too. Using SE is tedious as it's not loved. And vice versa :)
19:11:02 <andythenorth> map gen needs love
19:11:28 <frosch123> planetmaker: when playing widelands, not having a nice mapgen is the most tedious thing
19:11:48 <planetmaker> frosch123, 'free style' certainly is the setting you refer to as 'mountains'.
19:12:00 <frosch123> there is something of a half mapgen within the se, but it needs a lot of hand crafting afterwards
19:12:06 <planetmaker> But I also agree: I usually only use random map and I'm happy latest after a few tries
19:12:45 <frosch123> planetmaker: "free style" is too free :p i want to choose between level 0 (sea), 1 - 50, 50-100, 100-150
19:13:06 <frosch123> so i can request a gradient across the whole map
19:13:16 <frosch123> instead of homogenous mountains with same height
19:13:46 <frosch123> something like variety distribution, just different :p
19:17:44 <andythenorth> between variety distribution and the type
19:18:38 <andythenorth> can we replace both with some better presets?
19:18:46 <andythenorth> baked in heightmaps :P
19:21:19 <peter1138> Just make it flat, that seems most popular on MP :(
19:22:43 <peter1138> I want flat bits, I want smooth bits, I want rough bits that are high up and don't make millions of pointless lakes.
19:23:13 <andythenorth> I want rivers making valleys :P
19:24:01 <andythenorth> and a rabbit in a hat
19:24:08 <andythenorth> and a girl, I would call her
19:27:00 <Belugas> and i beer, i would called right away
19:27:33 <Rubidium> Freudian slip of the tongue?
19:28:26 <Rubidium> actually... Belugas, I've been talking about you a bit today about how Brittish is apparantly hard for Northern-Americans
19:28:29 <Belugas> and an andy, I would call "waving Hello Andy" ;)
19:28:43 <Belugas> hello sir Rubidium :)
19:28:58 <Belugas> yes yes yes it is hard sometimes :)
19:29:23 <Belugas> as hard it can be for let say glx and I to understand each other ;)
19:29:54 <Belugas> i don't know, it might be related to the intonations, the speed...
19:30:22 <Belugas> I know I cannot listen to a british tv show if it's not AT LEAST with subtitles
19:30:49 <andythenorth> always sense we are talking
19:33:32 <liq3> V453000: BDMT has no purpose atm in YETI
19:33:42 <Rubidium> don't forget idioms and such
19:33:57 <Rubidium> "living at her majesty's pleasure"
19:34:03 <liq3> no reason to use it over food. Can just grow town so large you never cap out.
19:34:39 <V453000> but can easily get double the amount
19:34:49 <andythenorth> what’s that thing pikka says?
19:34:54 <andythenorth> the 100% fallacy in sim games
19:34:57 <V453000> bdmt simply doubles the effectiveness of food
19:35:00 <liq3> the cap doesn't matter tho. :P
19:35:08 <liq3> Grow town to say, 200k pop.
19:35:27 <V453000> for food you get 20%, for food AND BDMT you get more than 40%
19:35:32 <andythenorth> less optimising, more playing
19:35:41 <V453000> but BDMT is only 20% of food
19:35:49 <V453000> which is quite efficient I would say
19:36:01 <V453000> not to mention that with reasonably slow town growth it obviously is more important
19:37:04 <liq3> V453000: your help documents don't clearly explain how BDMT and food work.
19:38:02 <V453000> Providing food will give you a production bonus. To motivate YETI dudes to work for you, you need to provide 1 crate of food for every 5 inhabitants in the town. You will get up to 20% of the population working for you every month with enough food. Providing both food and building materials will give you an even bigger boost. Provide food as described above and 1 unit of building materials for every 5 houses to get an additional 20% of the
19:39:17 <andythenorth> “Less optimising, more playing”, but I always use GS...
19:39:28 <liq3> V453000: so if I understand this right, BDMT is far more efficient to get YETIs than food?
19:40:01 <V453000> yes but BDMT wont even be processed if you dont supply food
19:40:15 <liq3> I misunderstood then. I take back everything I said. :D sorry.
19:40:35 <V453000> glad you understand now :P
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19:40:59 <liq3> now to get BDMT set up in my game...
19:41:43 <liq3> Got a worker yard that was recieving 2,500 food, but no bdmt. thought it was pointless.
19:42:15 <liq3> Network is so congested atm. Overflows don't work properly. :(
19:42:18 <andythenorth> complicated industry sets :(
19:43:26 <liq3> Gotta stop new trains joining the network if there's already trains around....
19:44:02 <liq3> hrm. I could do this with logic gates and a priority.
19:44:16 <peter1138> Heh, remember all that talk about a lego base set? :p
19:44:29 <andythenorth> I even saw renders
19:44:45 <andythenorth> would be crappy though
19:44:57 <andythenorth> if we wanted Lego, we should at least make things editable in game
19:45:02 <andythenorth> build your own train etc
19:45:43 <frosch123> please stick to the vocabulary in this channel
19:45:44 <andythenorth> cubicles are where Dilbert works
19:45:55 <andythenorth> is there an approved vocabulary?
19:45:59 <andythenorth> can I download it?
19:46:11 <frosch123> yes, "undo knobs" and "cubicels"
19:46:13 <planetmaker> wasn't it voxels?
19:46:37 <planetmaker> probably both was used interchangeably :P
19:49:22 <peter1138> "Easily Craft Your Own World In 3D"
19:49:48 <peter1138> So not geared as a tool for other things now, just harnessing the lure of Minecraft creative mode...
19:51:09 <andythenorth> oh they made blocky roads with it
19:51:55 <andythenorth> blocky roads is the reason I mention voxels at all seriously
19:52:57 <andythenorth> most of the other stuff looks like shit to me
19:53:19 <andythenorth> then again, blocky roads looks like TTD palette :P
19:56:15 <frosch123> is there a movie, where a tablet bites the finger when tapped?
19:56:26 <frosch123> or just swalllows the whole hand?
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20:23:39 <iamtakingiteasy> hello, is it possible to reduce number (density?) of trees around cities on tropical maps?
20:24:03 <iamtakingiteasy> i see it is possible to turn them off completly, but thats not quite what i want
20:24:19 <iamtakingiteasy> is there any control over tree population?
20:26:25 <planetmaker> you could found a wood chopper industry
20:26:33 <planetmaker> they cut trees quite effectively
20:26:58 <iamtakingiteasy> right after map genration?
20:27:12 <peter1138> Use original tree algorithm.
20:27:22 <peter1138> There'll be less trees.
20:27:46 <iamtakingiteasy> i have tried setting tree_placer = 1, not much change, they're still too dense
20:28:18 <iamtakingiteasy> and zero is just turns them off completly
20:37:58 <andythenorth> is not icy near rivers? o_O
20:38:19 <andythenorth> is straight railroads?
20:38:27 * andythenorth plays ‘guess the excitement'
20:39:13 <peter1138> I guess the rivers are at slightly lower height.
20:39:44 <andythenorth> hmm one view fixed
20:39:55 * andythenorth is upgrading a user interface :P
20:48:11 * alex6 slaps berndj around a bit with a large fishbot
21:01:16 <andythenorth> Supercheese: you could have just said BAD FEATURE :P
21:01:19 <andythenorth> no need to show off
21:17:21 *** Progman has joined #openttd
21:33:06 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
22:15:14 *** supermop has joined #openttd
22:42:33 *** luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz
23:09:13 <argoneus> good night train friends
23:50:56 *** Flygon_ has joined #openttd
continue to next day ⏵
