IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-10-11
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00:23:23 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> how out of date can sausages be? <-- i tried cooking sausages with like a "best before 1996" date, and they basically dissolved in the cooking water.
00:26:01 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody died from eating them, but it's definitely not the best food you could offer to people :p
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02:14:05 <argoneus> good night train friends
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06:29:03 <andythenorth> turned out to be 3 in Brisbane
06:29:19 <andythenorth> it’s bizarre that I know so many unrelated people in a place 14,000 miles aways
06:29:47 <andythenorth> which has the same first 4 letters as the place I live in
06:29:55 <Pikka> well, there are a couple of million people in the greater brisbane area... it's not that bizarre. :P
06:30:04 <andythenorth> it’s also bizarre that monkeys learned to talk
06:33:03 <Pikka> I don't think they'd fit
06:33:53 <peter1138> what's that coming over the the hill
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07:25:00 <George> Frocsh wrote: switch (FEAT_SHIPS, SELF, provence_edibles_tanker_create_visual_effect, [STORE_TEMP(create_effect(EFFECT_SPRITE_DIESEL, 8, 0, 18), 0x100)]) {return 1;}
07:25:21 <George> where can I read about parameters for create_effect?
07:26:05 <George> 8 is offset? means half tile to the end?
07:26:21 <George> and what are 0 and 18?
07:26:42 <George> what is the return 1 means?
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07:38:05 <andythenorth> George: I can’t remember (am looking now), but do you know how to read nml source?
07:38:16 <andythenorth> create_effect has some documentation there
07:38:30 <andythenorth> you could also check for the openttd commit
07:39:20 <andythenorth> the return appears to be the number of effects to create
07:39:48 <George> Could you please just copy&paste the part that describes the meaning of the parameters?
07:40:52 <peter1138> A wild coffee appears.
07:41:16 <George> you mean return allows, for example, provide smoke from 2 pipes?
07:41:31 <peter1138> You drink the coffee, depleting it somewhat.
07:41:39 <andythenorth> don’t tease me with coffee
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07:42:16 <andythenorth> George: yes. iirc, return specifies how many registers have effect positions stored
07:42:27 <andythenorth> so for two effects, store in two registers, then return 2
07:43:35 * andythenorth checks a ship with two effects
07:43:38 <George> and what should happen, if CB10 disables effect, and CB160 enables?
07:44:23 <andythenorth> I don’t know what happens between the CBs
07:45:07 <andythenorth> I believe they’re handled separately, for legacy support, but not sure
07:45:14 <andythenorth> ottd src would know
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08:43:49 <peter1138> I hope that train never goes through a tunnel.
08:49:28 <George> nmlc ERROR: "xussr.nml", line 32135: Unknown property name: effect_spawn_model
08:54:36 <liq3> oh wow that clock. pretty crazy.
09:02:03 <planetmaker> George, the property name is 'effect_spawn_model_and_powered'
09:03:27 <George> Someone should really update the docs :(
09:03:52 <frosch123> hey, i managed to document create_effect :)
09:06:28 <peter1138> __ln__, it's unrealistic!
09:10:55 <planetmaker> Pikka, pretty jolly party on that train it seems!
09:14:06 <George> frosch123: could you add the description for CB too?
09:16:47 <Pikka> that industry animation, and what it does to my fast-forward speed :D
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09:27:18 <peter1138> Silly reddit servers, calling 512x512 small.
09:29:33 <Pikka> I want to run a 4096* map and only build on about 5% of it. and then complain that my game runs slowly and I can't take giant screenshots of the whole map.
09:31:15 <frosch123> that's still an 1kx800 area or something
09:32:28 <Pikka> either way, there's a lot of pointless map calculating going on, growing towns and doing industry production in parts of the map they've probably never even seen.
09:33:57 <Pikka> 4096* with high towns and high industries. because everyone knows "max everything" is the only correct way to set up games.
09:34:54 <Pikka> who says 512* is small?
09:35:44 <peter1138> reddit #4 Small Map (YETI)
09:36:21 <argoneus> good morning, train friends
09:37:44 <NGC3982> I remember when i got 512MB RAM for the first time.
09:45:12 <argoneus> in the source code, you use uint16, uint32, uint8 etc
09:45:31 <argoneus> but you don't include stdint or inttypes anywhere
09:45:35 <argoneus> how come it compiles?
09:45:45 <V453000> Pikka: perfect XD I would just turn the turbosmooth on, at least on the hat
09:45:46 <argoneus> last I checked uint16 was not there by default?
09:46:08 <planetmaker> stdafx.h... slow ;)
09:46:09 <frosch123> argoneus: check stdafx.h, it defines all the mess you need to compile on 40 years of weird operating systems
09:46:10 <peter1138> also the standard versions are suffixed with _t
09:46:13 <Pikka> yeah, the hat went a bit funny :)
09:46:28 <argoneus> for example in config.h, you don't include them anywhere
09:46:38 <argoneus> I don't see anything included in any files that use it
09:46:50 <frosch123> we have a config.h?
09:47:31 <frosch123> headerfiles are not necessarily self-contained
09:47:36 <peter1138> it's included by the stuff that includes config.h
09:47:49 <frosch123> stdafx.h is included by every .cpp files at the beginning by convention
09:48:14 <argoneus> I thought headers were supposed to include
09:51:06 <V453000> soooooooooooooo Pikka how soon can we expect new pineapple trains? XD
09:51:30 <Pikka> I have another locomotive to finish, then soon (tm)
09:51:52 <Pikka> I want to do it at the same time as new NARS, but I'm still waiting to hear from Dan.
09:52:55 <V453000> why that? :D they have something in common?
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09:53:32 <Pikka> I'm adding the dome cars and another american-ish loco, so it's kind of linked...
09:57:08 <liq3> This reddit hard server. Takes so long to get money.
09:57:36 <Pikka> I've fixed up the smoothing groups on the helmet, still don't know if they'll match yours though :)
09:57:44 <Pikka> right now -> dinner, bbl
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09:58:20 <planetmaker> liq3, one could even assume that it's intentional ;)
09:59:12 <V453000> it doesnt need to be 1:1 Pikka :)
10:00:56 <George> frosch123: thank you, trying to code
10:01:40 <George> does effect_spawn_model mean the time when effect happens, not the effect itself?
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10:07:25 <George> effect_spawn_model_and_powered: EFFECT_SPAWN_MODEL_NONE should cause no effects regarles CB10?
10:07:46 <planetmaker> frosch123, what does value range ' ENABLE_WAGON_POWER ' for trains indicate?
10:09:30 <frosch123> it's not explained for visual_effect_and_powered either :)
10:09:45 <frosch123> i think it is a good thing that it is not explained
10:09:50 <frosch123> then people won't use it
10:10:02 <frosch123> and it would take 10 pages to explain unexpected side effects
10:10:15 <planetmaker> ah, that... ok :)
10:10:30 <frosch123> we could add a comment, about it not being explained
10:12:38 <George> frosch123: effect_spawn_model_and_powered: EFFECT_SPAWN_MODEL_NONE should cause no effects regarles CB10?
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10:17:23 <frosch123> George: effect_spawn_model_and_powered is essentially the same as callback 10
10:17:27 <frosch123> it just has new values
10:17:52 <frosch123> values which enable callback 'spawn_effect' instead of implying a fixed sprite and position
10:18:46 <George> so I can remove every visual_effect_and_powered part from my GRF and replace it with effect_spawn_model_and_powered and create_effect?
10:23:16 <George> does a newly created vehicle has no visual effect and powered by default, or it has to be specified directly?
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10:33:02 <andythenorth> will I draw Hog?
10:41:00 <andythenorth> also consist management
10:46:54 <andythenorth> I just type that in?
10:47:05 <peter1138> Yup, it's a secret code.
10:47:15 <andythenorth> engine, wood car...
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10:52:14 <Pikkaphone> engine, car, car, engine
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12:00:05 <andythenorth> bored is andythenorth
12:01:28 <andythenorth> can’t we just talk bollocks, instead of making things?
12:01:48 <Pikkaphone> evidence points to yes
12:04:37 <Pikkaphone> I wonder if the washing machine has finished
12:04:47 <andythenorth> if it’s still going around and around
12:04:57 <andythenorth> but if you see a cat in there
12:05:02 <Pikkaphone> I can't see it from here, innit
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12:06:41 * andythenorth needs daylength 0.5x
12:06:47 <andythenorth> this game is a bit boring
12:07:21 <Pikkaphone> someone should make a more interesting gs
12:08:16 <Pikkaphone> after they do all the millions of university werks I'm supposed to be doing this week
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12:33:15 <peter1138> andythenorth, yeah, those palette animations are hardwork these days...
12:35:54 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1764000
12:35:59 <andythenorth> it’s really not that many pixels
12:37:30 <Pikka> full animation is a bad feature
12:38:28 <Pikka> "full animation" is a bad feature
12:38:35 <Pikka> but so is full animation tbh
12:38:41 <V453000> what do you mean by that? :D
12:38:49 <andythenorth> Squid wakes look stupid without full animation
12:39:00 <Pikka> when one of your industries starts up, I may as well have turned FF off :P
12:39:40 <andythenorth> I haven’t bothered with many FIRS animations
12:40:08 <andythenorth> it’s a nice touch but tmwftlb
12:40:18 <peter1138> full animation used to be free :(
12:40:28 <V453000> yeah I guess it could do wtf with FF :D
12:40:44 <andythenorth> peter1138: I blam Apple
12:40:47 <V453000> use lower cost settings if you need to FF
12:41:07 <Pikka> because testing and not actually playing
12:41:33 <V453000> ok, so animations are a bad feature for testing :P
12:43:09 <andythenorth> animations are just FEATURE
12:44:00 <V453000> well luckily YETI now supports 8bpp mode without animations, so if someone is having serious issues, just switches the blitter to 8bpp and done
12:44:27 <Pikka> but then they won't be able to use pineapple trains with yetis on flatcars
12:44:38 <V453000> issue of Pineapples? :P
12:45:04 <Pikka> but I don't care enough to do anything about it :D
12:45:14 <V453000> that is why I like the idea of extending NUTS to 32bpp
12:45:19 <andythenorth> oddly, “banana electric tram” isn’t turning up much on google
12:45:34 <Pikka> probably got safe search on
12:46:31 <Pikka> I should time how long it takes to compile pineapple trains
12:46:45 <andythenorth> I’ll have to invent these trams
12:46:51 <V453000> Pikka yeti takes 3 hours
12:47:10 <Pikka> that's not just grfcodec :P
12:47:39 <V453000> well I did use to go compile it through NFO earlier
12:47:52 <V453000> devzone just goes straight through nml :)
12:48:20 <Pikka> it's the loading 35 thousand separate pngs that takes it so long :)
12:48:46 <V453000> they arent that separate :)
12:49:23 <Pikka> 35 thousand is pineapple trains :P
12:49:49 <Pikka> I imagine there's quite a few for yeti, though :D
12:52:01 <andythenorth> how did you get so many? o_O
12:52:37 <Pikka> well, the grofe gronk is by far the "heaviest", it has 2320 sprites.
12:53:23 <Pikka> 8 directions * 9 animation frames * 16 liveries * 2 directions, + 16 for the buy menu. :)
12:54:36 <Pikka> a normal, un-animated, no-load-states 8/8 vehicle is still 128 sprites, 8 directions * 16 liveries. it's doing different liveries for each CC that blows it out. :P
12:55:44 <andythenorth> that’s just showing off :)
12:57:34 <V453000> yeti creates spritesheets in postproduction
12:57:46 <V453000> so there are 128*5 + 16 pngs
12:57:49 <V453000> not more, not less :)
12:58:00 <V453000> which contains *16 sprites :)
12:59:13 <V453000> btw Pikka, directions can be solved by reversing the sprite order in the template :P
12:59:26 <V453000> not exactly reversing but you get the point
13:00:02 <V453000> do you have any turbosmooth on it?
13:00:04 <Pikka> yes, but they're still additional sprites in the grf :)
13:01:03 <V453000> I think NUTS has around 60k+, but for majorly bigger number of trains :P
13:01:08 <Pikka> that's how I do it with the olde 8bpp sprites, but for rendering it's easier just to chuck out additional renders with the correct positioning rather than mucking about with different offsets :D
13:01:43 <Pikka> and no, it's not turbosmoothed. like I said I didn't alter the geometry at all...
13:01:57 <V453000> the geometry is prepared for turbosmoothing
13:02:07 <V453000> I just turned it off to lower the poly count for exporting
13:02:22 <V453000> at least 1 turbosmooth iteration is good
13:02:34 <V453000> the hardhat gets smooth top with about 3
13:02:47 * peter1138 ponders ignoring station feature icons for the time being.
13:03:12 <liq3> V453000: is it just me, or is rather hard to service every industry in YETI on small maps?
13:03:30 <V453000> why would it be hard?
13:03:53 <andythenorth> peter1138: just delete them
13:03:56 <liq3> because there's 15 secondary industries?
13:04:02 <V453000> seems reasonably easy to me
13:04:04 <argoneus> is it me or is FIRS more annoying than fun
13:04:11 <argoneus> with all the engineering supplies and shit
13:04:34 <andythenorth> my views on that are known by some
13:04:37 <liq3> FIRS is annoying when the trainset is awfully balanced.
13:05:39 <Pikka> maybe I shouldn't have dicked around with the smoothing groups then, turbosmooth is doing funny things :)
13:06:01 <Pikka> I'll see how it renders, if worst comes to worst I'll just have to reimport it
13:06:02 <V453000> I am not sure what exactly do smoothing groups do with turbosmooth
13:06:22 <V453000> I thought only geometry influences it
13:06:32 <argoneus> is NUTS best used with YETI?
13:06:42 <andythenorth> I find FIRS quite boring to play
13:06:46 <V453000> is that a question argoneus ? :)
13:06:56 <andythenorth> especially Full FIRS economy
13:07:04 <V453000> FIRS is fun until you discover how it works :P
13:07:16 <argoneus> was YETI made with NUTS in mind
13:07:39 <V453000> NUTS simply has wagons for all cargoes, with various graphics
13:07:46 <V453000> which no other set has so far
13:07:51 <V453000> so yes you could say it is most fitting
13:09:34 <andythenorth> argoneus: what’s boring? Finding the supplies, or their effect?
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13:11:20 <argoneus> there's just so much cargo you have to transfer
13:11:34 <argoneus> and if you transport the supplies
13:11:39 <argoneus> you suddenly produce 4x more
13:11:42 <argoneus> and your line might not b enough
13:11:47 <argoneus> so you make more trains
13:11:49 <Pikka> there, turbosmoothed the helmets. turbosmoothing the yetis does funny things where I bent them to make them sit down, though :)
13:11:51 <argoneus> and suddenly it's too much, etc
13:12:18 <andythenorth> and then your network deadlocks
13:12:30 <andythenorth> because you feed the coal and stuff into supplies
13:12:31 <V453000> the yetis dont need smoothing as much
13:12:49 <andythenorth> if the supplies drop off for any reason (train jam / whatever)
13:12:56 <andythenorth> then your whole map can block
13:13:12 <Pikka> just one more thing to plan for :P
13:13:12 <V453000> that effect is much more significant in YETI :)
13:13:48 <Pikka> takes so much longer to render with smoothed helmets :P
13:14:10 <V453000> my animations render for whoel night :P
13:14:14 <Pikka> I'm impatient and 3 seconds per frame is too long to wait!
13:14:15 <andythenorth> faster computerisers needed
13:14:29 <liq3> the main problem I have with supplies in FIRS/YETI is you have trains for extra production, but then it messes up, then your Supplies trains can't get the station.
13:14:40 <liq3> by messing up, I mean you end up with lots of trains waiting.
13:14:50 <V453000> that is the issue you as a player have to solve liq3
13:15:03 <V453000> sending wood to sawmill and having a deadlock because your goods trains blocked it occurs with original industries too
13:15:05 <liq3> my solution is waiting bays and splitting the entrances sooner. :P
13:15:11 <V453000> overflow depots solve it ultimately
13:15:18 <V453000> but yes that solution is valid
13:15:59 <liq3> you have a worker yard, and it's got trains for 300 YETIs a month, but then your food trains get delayed, the YETIs drop to 150 a month, and you end up with 3-4 YETI empty YETI trains blocking the station so the food train can't deliver food and fix the problem. :P
13:16:08 <V453000> refit is also very good because that gets rid of the problem entirely
13:16:24 <liq3> never thought to do refits.
13:16:31 <Pikka> also, that's why you have seperate drop and pickup platforms. or one more platform than pickups. :)
13:16:41 <liq3> I do have seperate drop/pickup. :P
13:16:50 <liq3> I just have way more YETI trains than platforms.
13:16:57 <V453000> Pikka: even that can fill up :P
13:17:09 <V453000> if you have a lot of trains going to one station, slight differences can be devastating
13:17:29 <V453000> these 4 articles I just linked will solve all of your problems liq3 :P
13:17:42 <liq3> pretty tempted to use overflows. gonna end up with a bunch of trains I don't need tho :D
13:18:05 <andythenorth> FIRS was pretty much designed to require not-trains for delivering supplies
13:18:27 <andythenorth> you really are supposed to use road vehicles or planes
13:18:39 <andythenorth> if I was starting today, I’d make a different mistake instead
13:18:41 <liq3> I've been playing FIRS on the Reddit Hard Server that has the American train sets and stuff. they're so badly balanced. Trucks are way underpowered.
13:18:42 <George> what is correct name for effect_spawn_model?
13:18:52 <V453000> having trains which you dont need doesnt hurt anything
13:19:01 <V453000> AND you dont have to use the overflow, it can just be safety mechanism
13:19:07 <V453000> so you can have all trains needed :P
13:19:26 <George> nmlc says it effect_spawn_model_and_powered
13:20:26 <liq3> V453000: that's really tempting. I'll try it on a few stations.
13:20:27 <George> nmlc ERROR: "xussr.nml", line 4157: Unknown property name: effect_spawn_model
13:20:41 <V453000> it isnt just tempting, it is a good solution. :)
13:20:42 <andythenorth> yes that’s wrong
13:21:13 <andythenorth> yup effect_spawn_model_and_powered
13:21:52 <andythenorth> L329 is worth noting
13:22:43 <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r26990 /trunk/src (11 files in 4 dirs) (2014-10-11 13:22:37 UTC)
13:22:44 <DorpsGek> -Feature: Add option to choose normal, double or quad-size interface.
13:23:06 <andythenorth> although it’s old news
13:23:06 <George> and the main problem is that when I specify only effect_spawn_model_and_powered and create_effect I do not get any visual effect at all.
13:23:08 <andythenorth> I’ve had it for days
13:23:21 <Pikka> yes but now it's officially official
13:23:30 <andythenorth> George: you’ve seen sample code from Squid?
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13:23:34 <andythenorth> or you want some?
13:23:54 <George> And tryed to reproduce
13:24:08 <George> And I can't make it wokk
13:24:14 <andythenorth> so you set effect_spawn_model to a constant?
13:24:21 <andythenorth> EFFECT_SPAWN_MODEL_STEAM or whatever
13:24:34 <liq3> V453000: Also, servicing 15 secondaries on a small map is somewhat challenging. Trying to figure out how to connect them all to the mainline...
13:24:37 <andythenorth> and then create_effect cb
13:24:54 <andythenorth> pushing to register 0x100 for first effect
13:25:04 <liq3> 256x512, water on all edges.
13:25:06 <George> effect_spawn_model_and_powered: EFFECT_SPAWN_MODEL_ELECTRIC;
13:25:08 <V453000> also, everything depends on amount of worker yards liq3
13:25:14 <V453000> 256x512 is reasonably large
13:25:29 <Pikka> in my day we had 256x256 and we were grateful
13:25:53 <V453000> for one company 256x512 is great
13:25:59 <Pikka> 64x128 is a small map :)
13:26:17 <andythenorth> George: you’re doing trains?
13:26:31 <peter1138> 512x512 is small apparently :S
13:26:40 <andythenorth> brb, looking at code
13:26:56 <Pikka> yes but reddit is the home of people who are wrong about everything, peter1138
13:26:56 <liq3> got Food, Stone, Clay, Wood all right next to each, and need to connect YETIs to it too.
13:28:07 <liq3> V453000: Also, you're like the expert at OpenTTD! :<
13:28:14 <liq3> Of course you'd find it easy.
13:28:35 <andythenorth> start with pax, make $$$£££€€€€
13:28:37 <liq3> Oh, I intend to figure it out. :P
13:28:42 <liq3> Just gonna take me another 10 hours :D
13:28:42 <V453000> if you use too many towns on your map and connect all worker yards, sure it will be harder
13:28:45 <andythenorth> the hard bit is not getting bored
13:28:58 <liq3> Yes. Must connect everything. :D
13:29:06 <liq3> And must drop Food/BDMT to every worker yard.
13:29:52 <liq3> and also must drop machinery to every secondary :D
13:30:06 <peter1138> Wow, that scroll-on-click is fscking annoying.
13:30:30 <V453000> nobody said you must do that to every industry :)
13:30:37 <V453000> yeti allows for a lot of various "strategies"
13:30:47 <V453000> nothing wrong with that :)
13:31:11 <liq3> I had 250 trains on my last game. Original OpenTTD 256x256 map, services farms, iron, steel, goods.
13:31:31 <andythenorth> George: so that should result in disabled effects?
13:32:17 <George> there should be effects in the front|end of wagon depending on position
13:32:38 <andythenorth> that code is returning disable_create_effect()
13:33:07 <andythenorth> or is there some CPP macro expansion I’m missing?
13:33:15 * andythenorth hates reading CPP magic code
13:34:49 <andythenorth> something must expand er1_m_create_effect_direction_template ?
13:35:00 <andythenorth> because that’s only referenced once
13:36:31 <George> I'll try to make a small GRF to illustrate
13:37:22 <andythenorth> the test case was ships, so possible that there is an nmlc bug
13:37:32 <andythenorth> but I can’t see it when I look
13:37:59 <peter1138> yeti-offsets are weird :S
13:38:53 <andythenorth> wonder if I should do FIRS 2
13:39:13 <andythenorth> “now less rubbish"
13:39:48 <andythenorth> that for NoCarGoal you only need three cargos
13:39:56 <andythenorth> so an industry set could be really simple
13:40:09 <Pikka> assuming you're playing nocargoal
13:40:15 <Pikka> someone should make a better gs :/
13:40:33 <andythenorth> ‘mine’ -> ‘raw stuff’ -> ‘processor’ - > ‘processed stuff’ -> ‘factory’ -> ‘finished stuff’
13:41:06 <andythenorth> would work for Silicon Valley too
13:42:44 <V453000> yeti offsets should be changed in 0.1.0 peter1138
13:42:50 <Pikka> just showing a single head for MUs, and having them with the same offsets in the buy menu as other vehicles, no longer seems to be trivial. at least not in normal zoom... :/
13:43:15 <peter1138> V453000, you should crop the sprites better...
13:43:17 <Pikka> 'cause OpenTTD got too smart and autosizes/positions the sprites. changing the x offset has no effect whatsoever.
13:43:28 <peter1138> V453000, all the blank alpha :(
13:43:28 <George> er1 itself starts at line 1267
13:43:40 <V453000> the bottom edge alpha has been gotten rid of
13:43:45 <V453000> the top of the industry is harder
13:44:05 <peter1138> V453000, I meant the sprites which are like 700 pixels high but only the button couple hundred are used.
13:44:29 <V453000> what is wrong with that
13:44:45 <peter1138> It's pretty wasteful.
13:44:58 <V453000> does it waste anything?
13:45:03 <peter1138> Sprites get fully decoded when loading
13:45:29 <V453000> well animated sprites are like 80% alpha
13:45:36 <V453000> and there isnt really any better way to do it either
13:45:38 <liq3> V453000: would those overflows even work properly with trains dropping off supplies?
13:45:45 <andythenorth> George: can’t see any obvious reason that doesn’t work
13:45:53 <V453000> you dont need overflow for drop trains?
13:46:07 <peter1138> V453000, doesn't nml auto crop? :(
13:46:12 <liq3> right, I guess you just split the drop before the overflow.
13:46:18 <V453000> I dont know what nml does
13:46:19 <peter1138> pretty sure nfo could do that
13:46:35 <Pikka> grfcodec autocrops unless you tell it not to, yes
13:46:44 <V453000> feel free to join openttdcoop welcome server, a lot of overflow usage there
13:47:33 <peter1138> V453000, all that alpha can waste ram as well
13:47:41 <peter1138> and cpu as it gets drawn (but not drawn)
13:47:43 <V453000> I have no way to change it
13:47:58 <peter1138> No way? You didn't make it?
13:48:16 <V453000> without utter difficulties
13:49:43 <liq3> V453000: btw, you aware of the Oil Refinarey YETI sprite bug?
13:49:44 <peter1138> I wonder if that works with real alpha instead of just transparent blue.
13:50:06 <liq3> top of the oil refinary disappears and reappears.
13:50:27 <V453000> might be too tall sprites, but I havent seen that happen yet
13:51:40 <peter1138> That happens with some of the default buildings.
13:51:55 <peter1138> No, it's always been like that.
14:03:52 <peter1138> V453000, looks like nmlc can automatically crop
14:04:15 <peter1138> V453000, so just add -c to the nmlc line
14:04:27 <V453000> I dont even know where to do that, devzone compiles it
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14:12:20 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone got a command line for converting a 32bpp image to 8bpp?
14:15:17 <Eddi|zuHause> needs to handle special palette colours correctly
14:18:30 <andythenorth> I’d probably do it in PIL
14:18:35 <andythenorth> as that’s all I know ;)
14:21:51 <Eddi|zuHause> that still doesn't answer the question
14:24:14 <V453000> I solve that by making all sprites into one png
14:24:20 <V453000> and converting in photoshop as one file
14:24:43 <andythenorth> if it’s a straight application of a palette then it’s trivial in PIL
14:24:50 <andythenorth> but you’ll need to downsample no?
14:25:01 <andythenorth> and you might need special transforms for specific colours
14:27:55 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: must be a command line, no manual interaction
14:28:37 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: also, i have no photoshop
14:28:48 <V453000> you have fucking gimp :)
14:29:17 <V453000> gimp cant convert palette or what
14:29:21 <Eddi|zuHause> still doesn't mean i know the command line interface to that
14:29:38 <Eddi|zuHause> it almost certainly can't
14:30:14 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't know how. and i was hoping someone already has this implemented somewhere
14:30:15 <V453000> one edit in gimp isnt that much work is it
14:30:35 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: must be ZERO manual interaction.
14:31:19 <V453000> creating the sprites is already so much work that one edit is minimal
14:31:29 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't create the sprites
14:32:01 <V453000> that isnt really related
14:32:04 <Eddi|zuHause> also, there are like 100000 sprites
14:32:26 <Eddi|zuHause> they potentially exist
14:32:43 <Eddi|zuHause> but they won't exist if i can't convert them
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15:01:59 <George> frosch123, andythenorth: I've a strongfeeling that var 61 does not work in CB 160
15:02:08 <George> Could someone check it?
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15:06:20 <George> here GRF and NML attached
15:08:08 *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink
15:11:01 <Eddi|zuHause> George: did you update your nightly recently?
15:12:16 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, was committed in 26988
15:12:34 <Eddi|zuHause> George: next nightly is in 2 hours
15:18:20 <frosch123> George: i've just added that yesterday
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15:21:29 <George> I've downloaded 26987 and it does not wok there
15:22:00 <George> there can I get the more recent one?
15:37:25 <frosch123> they become available at 20:30 cest
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16:16:58 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26991 trunk/src/lang/english.txt (2014-10-11 16:16:52 UTC)
16:16:59 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6132]: typo in help text (Supercheese)
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16:32:11 <peter1138> -rw-r--r-- 1 petern petern 142446311 Oct 11 15:30 YETI.grf
16:32:11 <peter1138> -rw-r--r-- 1 petern petern 162294898 Oct 8 18:32 YETI.grf-old
16:32:21 <peter1138> cropped is 20MB smaller, apparently o_O
16:32:41 <peter1138> I would not have thought the size would change much :S
16:35:48 <peter1138> Of course, it is subtly broken.
16:36:45 <peter1138> Child-sprites do weird things :S
16:40:18 <peter1138> How do child-sprite offsets even work? :S
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16:52:03 <NGC3982> When does the steel cart get available in OpenGFX+?
17:02:10 <Eddi|zuHause> base sets do not change availability
17:12:54 <Wolf01> and look at all that eyecandy tracks for every entrance
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17:43:52 <peter1138> OpenGFX+ is not a base set.
17:44:46 <peter1138> Wolf01, unrealistic, tracks shouldn't curve like that.
17:48:20 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26992 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2014-10-11 17:48:09 UTC)
17:48:21 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:48:22 <DorpsGek> basque - 60 changes by Thadah
17:48:23 <DorpsGek> french - 10 changes by glx
17:48:24 <DorpsGek> italian - 8 changes by lorenzodv
17:48:25 <DorpsGek> norwegian_bokmal - 4 changes by cuthbert
17:48:26 <DorpsGek> swedish - 3 changes by Zuu
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18:27:18 <planetmaker> NGC3982, I'd think it gets available as flatbed car... usual time 1925 for rail, 180 for monorail and 2010 for maglev
19:02:19 <Supercheese> Aah, more strings
19:02:44 <planetmaker> Supercheese, so... you finished Latin?
19:02:53 <Supercheese> Indeed, proofreading phase
19:03:01 <Supercheese> although a couple new strings were juuust added
19:04:13 <planetmaker> well, I think I can trust you to fix that with web translator even when I commit that as-is ;)
19:05:05 <Supercheese> oh I am translating them right now, shouldn't take long
19:06:16 <planetmaker> can you give me the draft version so that I can prepare stuff?
19:06:34 <NGC3982> Guys, i like the OpenTTD graphics.
19:06:50 <NGC3982> Although, i just bought a new computer and i'm trying out Alien Isolation.
19:07:00 <Supercheese> I was planning on posting it for review on the forums shortly
19:07:17 <NGC3982> Sweet jesus, graphics has come a long way.
19:07:18 <Supercheese> see if maybe I can find someone else who can help catch typos/grammatical errors
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19:10:15 <Supercheese> Should I post the thread under General? Development...?
19:10:38 <planetmaker> good question. Probably general might catch more attention. And it's more a translation than development thing
19:24:39 <__ln__> surely it'll be included in 1.4.4?
19:29:00 <Supercheese> this could take a while; I am attempting to list the sources I consulted
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19:50:07 <peter1138> George, r26992 is a translator commit, how could that have fixed CB160?
20:00:05 <Supercheese> as an administrative note, I randomly chose 0x66 for the langid as it seemed free
20:00:16 <Supercheese> reassign as required
20:00:17 <planetmaker> Rubidium, I faintly recall that there was some rule for picking a grflangID for language?
20:01:04 <Supercheese> oh, and I suppose the nominative case is technically not required to be enumerated there
20:01:32 <frosch123> planetmaker: yes, international phone number :p
20:01:47 <Supercheese> and since station/town names cannot be inflected I guess locative isn't needed either
20:01:48 <frosch123> does the vatikan have one?
20:02:03 <planetmaker> though de-facto it's the one of rome
20:02:10 <planetmaker> but they have another one
20:02:29 <MNIM> also, some countries have multiple languages
20:02:50 <MNIM> or are you just going to do it canadian-style?
20:03:03 <planetmaker> MNIM, so how is that remark relevant?
20:03:09 <MNIM> "pour assimilation en francais poussez deux"
20:03:26 <MNIM> international phone number for langID
20:03:37 <planetmaker> the *grf*langID is anyway somewhat arbitrary
20:03:45 <frosch123> i am going to dispute the decimal separator choice :p
20:04:29 <planetmaker> anyhow, the 'real' phone country code does not fit in below 0x80, afaik
20:04:39 <frosch123> make the thousand separator NBSP at least, as any sane language should do
20:04:44 <Supercheese> I never understand why commas and periods are inverted
20:05:03 <Supercheese> One million = 1,000,000
20:07:18 <Supercheese> I never did find out if all those extra cases were needed for the STR_CARGO_SINGULAR strings
20:07:19 <frosch123> Supercheese: once commited the comments will be dropped by wt3
20:07:26 <frosch123> there are no language-specific comments in the lang files
20:07:51 <frosch123> so, if you want to keep them, you would have to put them on the wiki or something
20:07:52 <Supercheese> Hmm, how to give a note to translators
20:09:23 <planetmaker> making a wiki page is not a bad idea, I think
20:09:45 <planetmaker> but how to give note... that's a good question and imho a lack of feature in wt3
20:09:46 <Supercheese> Indeed, I am planning on an entry on Vicipaedia for the overall game
20:10:03 <Supercheese> might as well go in the OTTD wiki too
20:11:35 <Supercheese> I cannot honestly tell if the Singular cargo strings are actually used anywhere in the game
20:11:49 <Supercheese> source search turns up header/table files only
20:12:36 <George> peter1138: between 26987 and 26992 to be exact. Unfortunatly these are the only win32 executables I can download
20:13:17 <Supercheese> Perhaps I'm searching poorly
20:13:33 <frosch123> Supercheese: looks like the singular form is only used in subsidy news
20:14:40 <frosch123> STR_NEWS_SERVICE_SUBSIDY_OFFERED :{BIG_FONT}{BLACK}Service subsidy offered:{}{}First {STRING} service from {STRING2} to {STRING2} will attract a year's subsidy from the local authority!
20:14:51 <Supercheese> Due to an oddity in the English, yes I see
20:14:59 <frosch123> that one, and the award/withdrawal
20:15:13 <Supercheese> thanks, I'll have to double check that
20:15:39 <frosch123> well, look weird to me. could be wrong in a lot of languages :p
20:16:08 <Supercheese> d'oh, should be plural how I've worded it in Latin
20:17:52 <frosch123> anyway, i still suggest to change the thousand separator to NBSP
20:18:20 <frosch123> that's the most international standard, recommdened by iso, and generally makes sense for typed text
20:18:43 <Supercheese> Not configurable in game, I take it
20:18:43 <planetmaker> yes, I tend to agree there
20:18:53 <Supercheese> perhaps that setting should be removed from the langfile
20:18:59 <Supercheese> and put in Localization Settings
20:19:33 <Supercheese> aren't currency separators configurable in-game?
20:19:45 <frosch123> only prefix/postfix
20:20:27 <Supercheese> Custom Currency -> Separator
20:20:58 <frosch123> hmm, then i wonder why it is part of the language at all :p
20:21:46 * Supercheese votes to move separators to Localization
20:22:11 <frosch123> ah, i see, if the currency does not specify one, the language takes effect
20:23:08 <planetmaker> hm, new currency? Sesterz
20:23:29 <frosch123> aren't there multiple?
20:24:51 <planetmaker> wiki knows 1 Aureus = 25 Denar = 100 Sesterz = 200 Dupondien = 400 Asse
20:25:13 <Rubidium> planetmaker: as already said... international calling code, otherwise something like the calling code and in case of utter failures... the first one that isn't used and doesn't seem to be a calling code
20:25:16 <Ieuan> Is this the right place to ask a question about signals?
20:25:45 <Supercheese> Sestertius et Denarius in my textbook at least
20:25:56 <Supercheese> and yeah, some other coinages
20:26:08 <Supercheese> but hey, Custom currencies supported
20:26:17 <frosch123> well, i don't think it needs a currency for now
20:26:25 <frosch123> not all translations have a currency
20:26:28 <planetmaker> was more a joke, frosch123 :)
20:26:29 <Supercheese> right, anyone can make their own should they want
20:26:40 <planetmaker> Ieuan, in principle yes
20:27:15 *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
20:27:16 <Ieuan> I have a pretty massive system now, one line of it is primarily bridge/tunnel because of rough terrain. I want to stop trains from getting killed when they join up with the other line but I can't place any signals inside the tunnels/bridges and I don't want all the trains to wait until the one in front is all the way through the tunnels/bridges
20:27:20 <Ieuan> Is there any way to do that?
20:27:39 <planetmaker> build track over the mountain?
20:27:50 <Ieuan> So, with my current line, no?
20:28:11 <planetmaker> but what do you mean with 'kill'?
20:28:17 <Ieuan> The track is mine, the station isn't
20:28:26 <Ieuan> All the way to the center of the map is one huge line mostly bridge or tunnel
20:28:54 <Ieuan> If I just have those path signals when they come out of the tunnel, will all trains wait at the path signal before the tunnel/bridge before they continue?
20:29:18 <Ieuan> Because this is going to be a choke point and in that case it would make the other side of the tunnel a choke point as well
20:29:44 <planetmaker> simple path signal rule: place a signal where you want to allow a train to wait
20:30:03 <peter1138> Nice sharp bends there.
20:30:05 <planetmaker> you place some *after* the join. Thus you allow explicitly the whole junction to be blocked by one train
20:30:17 <planetmaker> waiting for a free path
20:30:25 * Supercheese is changing the STR_CARGO_SINGULAR strings to plural, and feels weird
20:31:01 <planetmaker> vice versa. Those must go
20:31:21 <Phreeze> germany losing to poland
20:33:02 <Ieuan> How do I stop them from reserving the whole line then?
20:33:06 <peter1138> So-called "safe waiting points", because a train waiting there doesn't block the junction.
20:33:14 <Ieuan> Just normal signals after the join?
20:33:30 <peter1138> What's wrong with them reserving it?
20:34:11 <Ieuan> Oh I do, nothing's wrong with that
20:34:17 <Ieuan> The next intersection would have the same thing
20:34:30 <Supercheese> Can I update the file I posted with some corrections now, or should I wait?
20:37:14 <peter1138> V453000, hee, NUTS purchase list with 2x gui :D
20:37:35 <Phreeze> "Full" purchase list ? :)
20:38:01 <Supercheese> "Note to translators: The SINGULAR strings are intentionally plural here in Latin, because English is ridiculous."
20:38:17 <peter1138> Because *Latin* is ridiculous.
20:38:41 <peter1138> Hmm, I dunno what engine/wagons I should use :p
20:38:47 <Supercheese> need to update again
20:42:48 <frosch123> peter1138: did you decide for a track type already? :p
20:43:27 <MNIM> peter1138: YOU are ridiculous. :P
20:47:30 <__ln__> a lot of international calling codes won't fit into <0x80
20:47:37 <FLHerne> Supercheese: English only really looks ridiculous if you try to apply latin-based grammar terminology to it
20:48:00 <MNIM> or any kind of actual grammar terminology. :P
20:50:13 <FLHerne> MNIM: I'm not so sure - there's nothing particularly insane about the grammar, it's just that it doesn't map well to the concepts grammarians would like it to
20:50:30 <FLHerne> As Bill Bryson put it, "the only form of sentence where you cannot use the 'present tense' form of drive, is the present tense"
20:54:07 <planetmaker> frosch123, I'd leave 0x25 free for one of the other more probably language in that range
20:54:58 <frosch123> it's like grfids, they do not really matter
20:55:25 <frosch123> if we get more than 127 translations, we will have to find a solution though :p
20:55:34 <planetmaker> or we just decide to fill grflangids starting from 0x00 upward
20:55:59 <frosch123> just take a random value from the middle
20:56:43 <planetmaker> then I leave 0x66 :)
20:57:02 <MNIM> FLHerne: take it from a non-native - English grammar is childishly simplified. there's a reason it's a lingua franca nowadays... ;)
20:58:10 * planetmaker wonders if Supercheese will kill me when I change digitsep to {NBSP} though ;)
20:58:49 <MNIM> and in general, spelling makes no sense whatsoever.
20:59:11 <__ln__> MNIM: english isn't a very usable lingua franca even within europe.
20:59:37 <frosch123> it works quite well in north america
20:59:49 <MNIM> Europe doesn't count, being freaking europe.
21:02:10 <FLHerne> MNIM: Sure, but 'simplified' doesn't really mean 'insane'. Agreed that spellings are just crazy
21:02:41 <Phreeze> english is understoof everywhere in europe
21:02:48 <Phreeze> if it isn't any other than the native one isn't either
21:03:45 <frosch123> Phreeze: you will find many places where russian is understood, and not native
21:03:50 <Taede> given that r26992 was only committed today (11th october), why does trunk download page say it was first released on 10th october?
21:04:12 <planetmaker> different time zone?
21:04:32 <Phreeze> but even if it's understoof, people dont like it xd like in bulgaria
21:04:50 <planetmaker> lingua franca is not about being liked
21:05:49 <Taede> r26992, released on 2014-10-10 18:00 UTC
21:06:14 <Taede> current time utc is 2014-10-11 21:06
21:06:18 <MNIM> FLHerne: simplified as in counting to ten would be simplified to one-two-many-ten
21:06:27 <MNIM> EG important bits are missing
21:07:57 <peter1138> It suffers from Youtube-syndrome.
21:08:54 <Supercheese> Pretty much the only place digitsep comes into play is in currency, which can be overridden anyway methinks
21:09:06 <Supercheese> do other values exceed 999?
21:09:27 <Supercheese> Years, but no separator there
21:09:55 <Supercheese> ah max num. of vehicles too
21:09:59 <Taede> speed on some newgrf sets (vacuumtrain)
21:10:23 <planetmaker> distance. All that stuff :)
21:10:28 * Supercheese would very much like to see that lang-independent configurable
21:10:37 <Supercheese> but I do agree space is more international
21:12:03 <planetmaker> ok, and plural forms are the same as English, thus 0 is correct, yes?
21:12:17 <planetmaker> 0 houses, 1 house, 2...oo houses.
21:19:44 <planetmaker> ok, any more updates, or I'll just dare to commit it :)
21:20:30 <frosch123> planetmaker: you can alred start with nforenum, nml, eints, devzone roles, ... :p
21:20:57 <frosch123> the hillariously long toolchain :)
21:21:03 <planetmaker> I've already patches for grfcodec and nml, yes
21:21:12 <planetmaker> but not devzone and eints :)
21:21:47 <planetmaker> but thanks for the reminder for those two. Getting... looong indeed :)
21:21:52 <Supercheese> planetmaker: You could remove "nom" and "loc" from case enumeration
21:21:55 <Supercheese> they are not really required
21:22:01 <frosch123> luckily grf2html is dead, so one less :p
21:22:14 <Supercheese> I just added everything when I started translating and never edited it really
21:22:26 <planetmaker> Supercheese, ok, will remove those then
21:22:34 <Supercheese> other than that, should be good to commit
21:23:02 <planetmaker> Nice to see that ingame really. I think we already have latin town names set, do we?
21:23:17 <Supercheese> yes but no case inflection :(
21:23:22 <Supercheese> it will sadly look horrible
21:23:45 <planetmaker> but we really need no nominative?
21:23:54 <Supercheese> well, it's just the default
21:24:07 <Supercheese> I never use it in a call {STRING.nom}
21:24:12 <Supercheese> so therefore not required eh
21:25:06 <planetmaker> meh... svn diff: svn: E135000: Datei »/home/planetmaker/ottd/all-svn/trunk/bin/baseset/no_music.obm« hat inkonsistente Zeilenenden
21:25:15 <frosch123> planetmaker: when adding the translator role to devzone, there is a script on the translator vm to sync the permissions
21:25:26 <planetmaker> how did it happen to get inconsistent line endings? (not related to latin, though)
21:25:53 <frosch123> planetmaker: why not? it is assembled from the translations
21:26:05 <frosch123> so, if you downloaded latin with win line endings
21:26:31 <planetmaker> mind the filename, frosch123 :)
21:26:39 <planetmaker> it doesn't touch the music.obm
21:27:10 <planetmaker> but will need to check that... lang files are just \n not \r\n, right?
21:27:27 <frosch123> planetmaker: no description.la_VA ?
21:27:30 <Supercheese> Hmm, I just hit enter in N++ and didn't think twice about it
21:27:37 <frosch123> did superchees not translate them?
21:27:47 <planetmaker> oh, he did. I forgot that it goes that way
21:27:56 <planetmaker> Supercheese, no worries. Already fixed
21:28:09 <Supercheese> I wondered why when I compiled those weren't translated
21:28:15 <Supercheese> extra steps I see
21:30:39 <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r26993 /trunk (13 files in 3 dirs) (2014-10-11 21:30:33 UTC)
21:30:40 <DorpsGek> -Feature: Latin translation (Supercheese)
21:31:14 <frosch123> planetmaker: svn properties
21:31:39 <frosch123> (we use such silly vcs :p)
21:33:12 <frosch123> svn propset svn:keywords Id src/lang/latin.txt; svn propset svn:eol-style native src/lang/latin.txt
21:34:38 <planetmaker> I guess that also needs commit
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21:36:03 <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r26994 trunk/src/lang/latin.txt (2014-10-11 21:35:56 UTC)
21:36:04 <DorpsGek> -Fix (r26992): Missing svn properties
21:36:24 <planetmaker> and I can't count :P
21:36:50 <frosch123> hmm, projects/generate hasn't been run in a time
21:37:07 <planetmaker> well, I just added it as the other languages
21:37:08 <frosch123> The following headers are missing in source.list and not in /src/ or vice versa.
21:37:10 <frosch123> > 3rdparty/squirrel/include/sqstdstring.h
21:37:11 <frosch123> > table/heightmap_colours.h
21:38:37 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26995 /trunk (6 files in 2 dirs) (2014-10-11 21:38:32 UTC)
21:38:38 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Add missing files to source.list
21:39:23 <frosch123> shall i add the translator role?
21:43:59 <frosch123> hmm, the script does not do the sorting though
21:44:28 <planetmaker> frosch123, any idea what it needs for eints?
21:45:03 <frosch123> i would guess for 2 or 3 files needing adjusting
21:46:27 <planetmaker> where did you add the translator role?
21:46:36 <Supercheese> It still shows as read only for me
21:47:03 <frosch123> redmine devzone, the group is still missing
21:47:13 <frosch123> hmm, does openttd.org also need a ldap group?
21:47:31 <frosch123> planetmaker: group is second thing, first role
21:51:57 <frosch123> i've assigned supercheese as translator btw :p
21:56:43 <planetmaker> frosch123, so is there still sth to do for eints/devzone?
21:57:28 <frosch123> devzone is ready. if eints is pushed, it needs pulling and restart
21:58:03 <planetmaker> I didn't change yet anything on eints
22:06:25 <planetmaker> looks good, frosch123
22:06:43 <planetmaker> and I really hate it that fr<tab> does not complete anymore to frosch
22:08:49 <planetmaker> we also cater for the pope. One can't say we don't ;)
22:09:14 <Supercheese> well, I'm not Catholic, so I don't really know much about the Vatican
22:09:28 <Supercheese> Mass is no longer in Latin from what I hear
22:09:42 <Supercheese> think some German fellow had something to do with that a few centuries ago ;)
22:13:25 <planetmaker> maybe also Belgian. Depends whether it's Calvin or Luther
22:16:27 <MNIM> Supercheese: actually - no - second vatican council - in the 1960s
22:16:45 <MNIM> the catholic chruch /likes/ it's traditions. :P
22:16:56 <Supercheese> Well, surely Luther had *something* to do with it
22:17:22 <frosch> Supercheese: i think you can now translate silicon valley to latin
22:17:51 <frosch> (i randomly picked a project, ofc)
22:18:07 <planetmaker> I wouldn't believe otherwise
22:18:45 <MNIM> Supercheese: if only, if only. :(
22:19:09 <MNIM> well, indirectly, like butterflies and tsunamis, maybe
23:12:19 *** luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz
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continue to next day ⏵
