IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-09-30
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07:44:50 <V453000> where were written the IDs of tiles? like 12048-20134 temperate, 2103-25566 arctic grass, temperate rough, rocks, ...
07:45:39 <peter1138> src/table/sprites.h irc you're lucky
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07:55:28 <planetmaker> in OpenTTD. But OpenGFX' source is also pretty clear about that
07:55:43 <planetmaker> or also opengfx+landscape
07:56:17 <planetmaker> also, grass is grass. arctic grass has the same ID as temperate grass as tropical grass as toyland grass
07:56:40 <planetmaker> temperate rocks the same ID as arctic rocks as tropical rocks
07:56:44 <planetmaker> desert is the same as snow
07:58:07 <planetmaker> if you're into landscape NewGRF, just look at OpenGFX+landscape
07:58:29 <planetmaker> basically I can recommend: take the code, replace the sprites
07:58:48 <planetmaker> there's no magic at all, just simple sprite replacement and climate / parameter check
07:59:25 <planetmaker> maybe rather use pota-ghat. It's slightly smaller in terms of code
07:59:34 <planetmaker> but ignores arctic in turn :)
08:00:47 <planetmaker> please create one :P
08:01:41 <V453000> I guess I will just ravage the pnml files then :D
08:01:45 <planetmaker> on the other hand I don't quite see how a huge spreadsheet would help more than this kind of list
08:02:10 <planetmaker> the order of all landscape sprite sets of 19 slopes is always the same. You can look at any such png file in the projects
08:02:19 <planetmaker> or just the template definition
08:02:29 <planetmaker> which you can also rip 1:1 as there's no freedom in it
08:03:05 <V453000> how would I go about making x4 zoom with opengfx+ code? just alternative sprites and x4-sizing the templates?
08:03:25 <planetmaker> basically yes. pota-ghat has a 4x template
08:05:10 <V453000> found that (: where can I find the x4 png?
08:05:16 <planetmaker> well, obviously you'll need to adjust the x/y positions in the spritesheet to yours, but you get the idea :)
08:05:42 <V453000> well I can easily create the same spritesheet
08:05:51 <planetmaker> especially line 91ff in the template file
08:06:26 <V453000> but there is just so many images that I cant orientate in it at all yet :D
08:06:43 <planetmaker> well, that's where you first look at the code
08:06:54 <planetmaker> it tells you which spriteset shows which
08:07:38 <planetmaker> if (climate == CLIMATE_TEMPERATE) { definitions for temperate sprites }
08:07:59 <planetmaker> and the definition for temperate/arctic/tropical/toyland sprites all look the same in that if clause
08:08:14 <V453000> I dont see src/gfx/grass_nogrid_tropical.gimp.png in the repository :d
08:08:28 <planetmaker> it's a repetition, too
08:08:43 <planetmaker> V453000, yes, they all are generated from the gimp file in opengfx+landscape
08:08:54 <planetmaker> thus no png files there. Or only very few
08:09:41 <planetmaker> there are like 3 main graphics source files for the landscape which allow me to compose the tiles from different overlays. Especially handy for coastal sprites and rivers. And also snow transitions
08:09:42 <V453000> but where is the actual sprite that pota ghat uses then?
08:09:55 <planetmaker> also in a gimp source file. Just 10x bigger :P
08:10:40 <planetmaker> can you open gimp files? I could otherwise upload some of them somewhere for your convenience
08:11:06 <V453000> after I install gimp yeah
08:12:21 <planetmaker> similar link for opengfx+landscape
08:12:29 <planetmaker> gotta go. see you laters
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08:42:00 <planetmaker> V453000, especially for roads and the default rail/monorail/maglev tiles an overlay approach is also very useful
08:42:25 <V453000> that I understand very well, 3D gets that done easily ;)
08:47:02 <V453000> your method is interesting I have to say :D
08:47:46 <V453000> pm is your tile shape same as 1x zoom but just x4?
08:48:06 <V453000> I was trying to make smooth edges and resigned so far so just upsized x1 :D
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09:04:35 <planetmaker> V453000, yes, I just scaled the 1x thing 4x and used it as mask
09:04:55 <planetmaker> I'm not convinced anymore it's the best approach, but it was then the easiest for me to do, too
09:06:42 <planetmaker> smoother edges and aliasing has other issues, though. E.g. at connection of bridges to roads / rail. Or with foundations or immediately adjacent buildings. But that will need looking at
09:06:58 <planetmaker> zbase does it that straight aliasing way, too, I think
09:07:25 <planetmaker> one thing I'd like to try is a not exactly straight tile border, but a slightly more wiggle-waggle with aliasing
09:07:37 <planetmaker> but that might also be a big fail :)
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09:08:49 <Eddi|zuHause> afair straight borders leaves some gaps in combination with upscaled sprites from other grfs
09:09:23 <peter1138> Until everything is 4x, yes.
09:09:23 <Eddi|zuHause> which was complained lengthily about in the forum
09:09:40 <planetmaker> or can do. Depends on how you play it, actually
09:10:05 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: but you can't guarantee that all newgrfs provide 4x
09:10:31 <planetmaker> no, one can't. But that's on the other hand, the usual risk for combining NewGRFs: they simply might not fit together well
09:10:50 <planetmaker> that's even the case for 8bpp only. It might simply clash. So it's not something entirely new
09:11:00 <peter1138> Straight edges is definitely the way.
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09:11:44 <planetmaker> I wonder whether the aliasing should only be in the direction of the forward edges and not on the backward one
09:13:01 <peter1138> You can have antialiasing if your tile edges overlap a little. The glitches with AA happen because it's right on the edge.
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09:13:54 <planetmaker> yeah, the problem occurs if the adjacent tile is not a landscape one but something else where the antialiasing does not fit too well.
09:14:04 <planetmaker> but that's minor, too, I recon
09:14:20 <peter1138> planetmaker, if it's in front, it will overwrite.
09:14:42 <peter1138> By little I mean 1 pixel or so, at 4x.
09:15:24 <planetmaker> yeah. And true... sprites are drawn back to front... hmpf
10:02:32 <V453000> well I will try upscaled x1 -> x4 for now
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10:04:01 <V453000> creating clean x4 seemed like impossible to me so far
10:04:04 <V453000> it always collides somehow
10:04:21 <peter1138> Probably zBase uses wrong offsets or something :p
10:04:24 <V453000> will try to at least slower approach, x1 -> upscale -> perhaps edit that
10:04:45 <V453000> I was testing with ttd-win not zbase
10:05:18 <peter1138> 4x straight edges will always glitch with 1x-upscaled sprites.
10:06:53 <juzza1> can you show me your 4x tile mask?
10:07:02 <V453000> well then I will just work from somewhat glitchy to actually working
10:07:43 <peter1138> And zBase itself is glitchy, so you can't really use that as a reference.
10:08:07 <peter1138> Hmm, I had a scaler that tried to make straight edges once.
10:10:09 <V453000> but 1. problem is to get them right in the image because you can Only move them by offsets by units of 4px
10:10:17 <V453000> 2. they do not fit together perfectly, just almost
10:10:39 <V453000> but then, not even ttd-win or ogfx fits together perfectly in all variants
10:10:47 <V453000> there always seem to be some combinations which are broken
10:10:57 <V453000> well they dont look broken in the game but in the template it is
10:12:07 <V453000> problem 1 is critical, which is why I am trying to start from upscaled x1
10:12:19 <V453000> am hoping to get at least the positioning right there
10:15:08 <peter1138> How do you get the sprite aligner up?
10:15:40 <peter1138> How do you get to it.
10:15:54 <V453000> menu -> sprite aligner, done?
10:16:09 <V453000> is there some ultrawtfx4 mode?
10:16:19 <peter1138> Ok, it's easy to fix that to do 1 pixel at a time.
10:16:40 <juzza1> some of those slopes were tricky when i did some testing recently
10:16:57 <V453000> juzza1: did you do x4?
10:18:31 <peter1138> Well, the lines should be same at 1x and 4x, just longer :)
10:18:35 <juzza1> all tiles can be created from combinations of those masks
10:18:59 <V453000> do you have any sprites created from this?
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10:19:42 <juzza1> trying to find where i put my test sprites
10:19:50 <peter1138> Heh, of course, those "x/2-1" offsets suck with * 4
10:20:01 <peter1138> 31 -> 124 instead of 127.
10:20:50 <peter1138> wouldn't be a problem if it was just x/2 :S
10:21:50 <juzza1> V453000: i uploaded the full masks now
10:23:11 <V453000> interesting, I will test it and let you know
10:23:21 <V453000> could you zip it please? or should I just download x19 :D
10:27:38 <peter1138> Hmm, I broke it. The sprite doesn't move within the sprite aligner window...
10:28:09 <peter1138> Oh, maybe it's not meant to?
10:28:33 <Eddi|zuHause> no, you're meant to check the alignment with nearby sprites on the actual map
10:28:52 <peter1138> Ok, that means I just fixed the window to work with 2X GUI then :p
10:29:29 <Eddi|zuHause> (at least that is how i used it)
10:29:48 <Eddi|zuHause> you're missing an eye
10:31:07 <peter1138> Yeah I tested with 1.4.3 and it doesn't move then either, heh.
10:31:47 <Eddi|zuHause> there wouldn't be a lot of point to moving a sprite on an empty background...
10:32:22 <peter1138> It does need a reference point, yes.
10:32:48 <peter1138> There is code to fiddle with offsets, which I see now is to cancel them out so that the image is always centred.
10:32:52 <Eddi|zuHause> furthermore, it would break the window if the sprite had crazy offsets
10:34:23 <juzza1> peter1138: iirc the height is 127 for non-scaled 4x tiles, if you use straight lines, because the adjancent pixels also only take 1px space vertically (instead of the 4 pixels that would be required if simply scaling up)
10:34:36 <juzza1> cant explain it properly, it seems
10:35:54 <juzza1> by non-scaled i mean true 4x tiles without upscaling
10:36:17 <peter1138> Yes, it's all awkward, I know.
10:36:54 <juzza1> and by adjancent pixels i meant adjancent tiles ofc...
10:37:04 <planetmaker> sizes are 64*zoom and 32*zoom-1
10:37:33 <peter1138> Probably also meant adjacent :)
10:38:29 <peter1138> Should we skip future problems and go with 8x? :P
10:39:19 <b_jonas> peter1138: sure, but add 64 bit color support as well (16 bit depth for each color component)
10:39:47 <V453000> would be nice grf size
10:39:51 <peter1138> Hmm, we should allow using videos as sprites, for animation...
10:40:27 <peter1138> So a 512x255 resolution 20 second video clip with encoding that supports 64bpp.
10:40:52 <peter1138> 512x255 sounds tiny when you bring the word video into it :-)
10:41:03 <b_jonas> peter1138: that will be difficult, such video encodings aren't too spread yet.
10:41:41 <peter1138> That'll avoid needing more dependencies too ;)
10:43:24 <V453000> juzza1: mask005 is invalid I think
10:44:37 <V453000> that tile does not exist
10:45:02 <peter1138> 11:36 < V453000> /me duz not .diff :P
10:45:09 <peter1138> Wait, you mean you won't test it? :(
10:46:03 <V453000> I have no idea how to compile openttd peter
10:46:41 <peter1138> Ok fine, then I will commit at lunch time (I'm ... working now) and then it'll be in the nightly.
10:47:02 <peter1138> And so the UI will be useful for 4x sprite alignment.
10:49:02 <Pikkaphone> 32bpp newgrfs aren't big enough yet
10:49:18 <peter1138> It is 16x! (in area)
10:49:50 <V453000> juzza1: found it :D I think
10:50:05 <juzza1> V453000: it does, it just looks weird because of the colors. its a tile where west and east corners are up
10:50:20 <Pikkaphone> so it's the ui scaling you're committing?
10:50:38 <peter1138> Still working on that.
10:54:58 <V453000> but isnt x4 offset x4?
10:55:40 <peter1138> that's sprite index offset, not sprite position offset
10:56:51 <V453000> hate that numbering XD
10:57:16 <peter1138> You know who to blame :-)
10:58:41 * Pikkaphone blames peter, as usual
10:59:32 <planetmaker> we should push blame once around in circles. That effectively diffuses it ;)
10:59:53 <planetmaker> common practise shown in politics. Very efficient
11:11:31 <Pikkaphone> company colored German train set
11:29:29 <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r26941 trunk/src/newgrf_debug_gui.cpp (2014-09-30 11:29:23 UTC)
11:29:30 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Make NewGRF sprite aligner work with GUI size.
11:35:27 <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r26942 trunk/src/newgrf_debug_gui.cpp (2014-09-30 11:35:21 UTC)
11:35:29 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Make sprite aligner useful for people making full-zoom graphics.
11:35:45 <Pikkaphone> I never worked out how to use the sprouts aligner
11:35:58 <Pikkaphone> as my phone keyboard calls it
11:36:09 <peter1138> Sprouts definitely need aligning.
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12:44:47 <peter1138> juzza1, nice masks... of course the trick is to apply them to the ground tile but not anything that intentionally overlaps... :)
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13:49:41 <planetmaker> juzza1, what about the different hue in the masks?
14:02:56 <V453000> planetmaker: that is remains from creating them from the angle shapes
14:03:04 <V453000> just using it as alpha mask is fine
14:07:13 <V453000> I havent yet tried if they actually work in the grf
14:13:55 <juzza1> the colors were just an indicator for myself to separate the different "angles" of each corner
14:14:13 <juzza1> its just an alpha mask really
14:14:38 <peter1138> inb4 someone uses them as ground tiles...
14:14:54 <juzza1> not intended to be used as an actual 32bpp mask in a spriteset
15:07:39 <planetmaker> juzza1, but as alpha mask it looks weired to me, looking at 06 for instance
15:09:33 <planetmaker> juzza1, and from other tiles I had the impression that sun was directly at 3 o'clock instead of later in the after noon
15:09:54 <planetmaker> assuming that brightness means alpha
15:10:40 <juzza1> the color doesnt mean anything
15:10:53 <juzza1> stuff around the tile is transparent
15:11:20 <planetmaker> ok, I thought (and actually hoped) that the colour would mean something :)
15:12:19 <planetmaker> but then, the illumination for ground tiles anyway probably needs some individual adjustment
15:12:59 <planetmaker> I found that a rather tricky thing to create for pota-ghat, the brightness of the surface for the different slopes once I wanted to go beyond just straight lines
15:17:14 <peter1138> well your lighting set up should handle that :p
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16:35:47 * peter1138 ponders trying that magical feature again... CBH.
16:36:53 <Rubidium> you scared Celestar away!
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16:38:01 <Rubidium> want to revive Celestar's patch (r9109)? Or start from scratch?
16:50:55 <peter1138> I think that might be a little old :-)
16:59:17 <V453000> juzza1: I am not sure if your tiles are flawless, but they certainly do look operational in game :)
17:01:41 <V453000> replacing arctic landscape
17:01:47 <V453000> only standard grass tiles atm
17:02:00 <V453000> best way to see it is get scenario editor, new map, hilly, with high snow line
17:02:01 <peter1138> Oh ah, well, I meant a pic, but okay :p
17:05:23 <V453000> guess making offset one px to the right would help too
17:08:08 <V453000> well, looks worky :) now just to replace the rest of the things (:
17:08:25 <peter1138> -124 to match default sprites, but that technically incorrect. Hmm.
17:09:38 <peter1138> I mean, the default sprites are still not gonna match, so might as well be correct.
17:10:19 <V453000> the sprite is 64 wide
17:10:19 <peter1138> depends on the slope
17:10:27 <V453000> I use one template for all
17:10:51 <V453000> 256 wide is the one with -124
17:11:11 <peter1138> because... reasons? dunno
17:11:15 <peter1138> -32 would've made it simpler
17:11:25 <V453000> that is what I kind of implied would be default XD
17:11:44 <V453000> now I just need to create the models :)
17:11:57 <peter1138> Now make it look like less of a texture applied to a flat surface :p
17:12:12 <V453000> well that is another thing, there will be more to do
17:12:38 <V453000> just needed to have it operational before some fiddling :)
17:13:41 <peter1138> Hmm, the bounding box is on -32 (-128)
17:15:13 <peter1138> Is that with aliased edges?
17:15:23 <V453000> I dont have any aliasing
17:15:27 <V453000> everything 100% precise edge
17:15:38 <peter1138> It is aliased then.
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17:44:11 <xQR> hey, is there any way to display colored text without using a predefined text from a language file via GSText?
18:03:19 <peter1138> can you inject the codes? heh
18:03:37 <peter1138> or is it only ttd(p?) codes that are allowed
18:07:02 <Rubidium> peter1138: I fear string validation filters them out
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18:50:11 <xQR> i was afraid you would say that :/
18:52:11 <peter1138> V453000, oh yeah, the sprite aligner should be nicer now :p
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19:08:50 <Supercheese> Awesome, USS Macon is Wikipedia's featured picture
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19:15:47 <Supercheese> of the sort that clearly inspired the creators of the movie "Up!"
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19:53:32 <FLHerne> Wasn't that one of their flying-aircraft-carrier things? With skyhooks>
19:55:31 <NGC3982_> How come my servers suddenly have a lot of players when i name them "ERMAGERD DICKBUTT"
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20:47:32 <Eddi|zuHause> "Windows 10"... weren't they already one marketing version ahead of the actual version?
20:48:25 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: They're still on '6' for the actual version aren't they?
20:48:48 <FLHerne> Unless Win8 bumped it. Vista and 7 were definitely both 6.x
20:49:08 <__ln__> Vista is 6.0 and 7 is 6.1, or something like that.
20:49:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have a 7 or 8 to actually look it up
20:50:31 <Prof_Frink> And they're still behind Macos and Umbongo.
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20:56:41 <Eddi|zuHause> 3.1 was the first one i used
20:58:18 * planetmaker started with 2.7. And stopped with XP
20:58:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a work laptop with vista on it. but i rarely actually work on it
20:59:09 <Rubidium> I reckon that they decided that Windows 9 would've been a too negative campaign in Germany
20:59:34 <FLHerne> I used Mac OS (classic), Win2k, OSX 10.4, WinXP and now Linux
21:00:08 <FLHerne> People moan about XP now, but compared to real MacOS everything is wonderful! ;P
21:00:18 <Sylf> I still can't make myself wean off of windows
21:00:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but everybody would say "Windows Neun", so that doesn't make sense at all...
21:01:44 <FLHerne> Sylf: Just install Linux over it, and never look back :P
21:02:02 <Sylf> But I already have a linux box too
21:02:40 <FLHerne> Ah, but if you have to go through Windows' horrible install process first you'll be less likely to go back to it ;-)
21:03:41 <Rubidium> install isn't so horrible, it's the fact that you've got a gaping security leak after the install ;)
21:04:28 <Rubidium> plus several cycles of installing updates
21:04:45 <Rubidium> *how* hard can it be to do that all during installation?
21:04:56 <__ln__> indeed, installation is quick and painless, ~15 minutes. but installing all the updates takes ~8h.
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21:06:24 <Rubidium> but alas... those companies advertise on install time and the ease of it; having to wait to download stuff is just a nuisance during install
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21:06:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i seem to remember that XP later came with SP2 or SP3 included
21:07:13 <__ln__> FLHerne: btw, you'll look back to windows as soon as you attempt to play audio on linux.
21:07:15 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: and you still need to install something like 100+ patches on top of that
21:07:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but that's fairly normal for physical disk based installs... you can't release a new CD every week
21:08:44 <FLHerne> __ln__: I do play audio on Linux, not looking back yet :P
21:09:23 <FLHerne> __ln__: OTOH, I don't have any setup requiring PulseAudio, so that might help
21:09:34 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but you *can* make it so that it downloads the latest version of the file/package/... during installation
21:10:39 <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r26943 trunk/src/video/win32_v.cpp (2014-09-30 21:10:32 UTC)
21:10:40 <DorpsGek> -Fix: [Win32] Silence a warning about comparison of signed and unsigned variables when using gcc
21:11:58 <peter1138> Audio on Linux is easy.
21:13:56 <planetmaker> yes. And no. I've one PC where it's not that easy. Actually I stopped bothering
21:14:37 <planetmaker> and it needed a bit browsing the webs to get it going on wheezy on this machine, too
21:14:57 <planetmaker> auto-detection didn't quite work. Did on fedora, though
21:16:44 <FLHerne> I haven't had any driver/hw-detection issues on here at all, except the ethernet port which just plain doesn't work
21:16:57 <FLHerne> I think that might just be hardware clobberedness though
21:33:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the only driver problems i ever had were graphics and the TV card which i had to adjust manually once...
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23:10:45 *** Flygon__ has joined #openttd
23:14:49 *** fjb is now known as Guest57
23:58:32 *** George|2 has joined #openttd
23:58:32 *** George is now known as Guest62
23:58:32 *** George|2 is now known as George
continue to next day ⏵
