IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-09-28
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04:45:18 <Rubidium> argoneus: somewhere in the order of 1500 bytes is the maximum packet size openttd will send
04:45:51 <Rubidium> also recv might get only a partial packet (or multiple packets)
04:46:33 <Rubidium> since the underlying network layer is free to merge the "openttd packets" (or split them up)
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06:02:08 <andythenorth> I never knew tree growth was such a big deal
06:03:47 <Supercheese> It apparently greatly affects savegame size
06:06:48 <Rubidium> if it greatly affects your savegame size, then your map isn't finished by a long shot and you probably took a too large map size ;)
06:10:33 <Rubidium> also... how is the Latin translation going?
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06:18:45 <andythenorth> my trees are always transparent
06:18:55 <andythenorth> I should just start maps with trees off :P
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06:19:26 <Rubidium> andythenorth: without trees and with the tree growth disabled ;)
06:19:35 <andythenorth> as the conclusion of the thread is that none of the current map gen settings are not good enough
06:19:44 <andythenorth> I would just remove the option from the map gen window
06:20:05 <andythenorth> the root cause of the problem is that the players don’t like the options
06:20:07 <andythenorth> so remove the options :P
06:26:06 <andythenorth> this is why andythenorth never gets commit rights
06:56:54 <Supercheese> Latin translation is nearly finished
06:57:20 <Supercheese> I'm just having issues trying to translate signals... block signals, path signals
06:57:37 <Supercheese> I wonder if some 19th century railroad texts exist in Latin
06:57:45 <Supercheese> something with sufficient terminology
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07:04:24 <Supercheese> the Latin wikipedia sadly is lacking in signaling terms
07:04:39 <Supercheese> as are all my school textbooks
07:07:38 <Supercheese> Yes, but then what is a "block signal
07:07:51 <Supercheese> vs. other signals
07:08:15 <Supercheese> and then how to distinguish between semaphores (semaphora) and other signals (semaphora)...
07:08:44 <Rubidium> mechanical vs electrical?
07:08:44 <Supercheese> semaphora electrica, well could just be electrically-operated semaphores...
07:09:41 <Supercheese> also I have been lucky enough to find prior references for translating modern terms for nearly everything except railroad signalling
07:10:04 <Supercheese> even monorail had a latin translation, surprisingly
07:10:56 <sla_ro|master> is there a latin translation for openttd?
07:10:58 <Rubidium> too bad Poland stopped using Latin in the 18th century
07:11:14 <Supercheese> sla_ro|master: There is on my hard drive, and will be available for proofreading shortly
07:11:27 <sla_ro|master> ah, well, not goin' to use it, but that's cool and weird :P
07:11:51 <sla_ro|master> well I speak a latin language who is supported by openttd
07:11:58 <sla_ro|master> so I don't need latin itself
07:16:43 <Supercheese> Yeah their broadcasts do not have comprehensive transcripts
07:16:55 <Supercheese> however, I could trawl their archives for some
07:17:39 <Rubidium> the question is whether they might know the wording
07:18:22 <Supercheese> I could ask my professor, I suppose, although we've no trains anywhere around here ...
07:20:22 <Supercheese> oh also cargo distribution stuff... ugh last hurdle
07:20:30 <Rubidium> mechanical signals (on wikipedia at least) refer to the semaphores, the others are light signals
07:20:57 <Supercheese> Yeah I'll just have to tack on adjectives
07:21:27 <Supercheese> bleeeeh stupid CargoDist helptexts
07:21:34 <Supercheese> I don't even use cargodist
07:22:34 <Supercheese> they are also the longest strings in OTTD
07:23:27 <planetmaker> the short ones were already used up ;)
07:23:47 <Supercheese> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_SHORT_PATH_SATURATION_HELPTEXT weighs in at 703 characters
07:25:06 <Alberth> unless you make an in-game manual, there is no other good place, probably
07:25:50 * Supercheese debates translating them all as "Noli id uti" :P
07:28:55 <Supercheese> or I suppose "eo uti"
07:29:15 <Supercheese> dictionary is sending mixed signals
07:31:06 <Rubidium> use that for "combo signals" ;)
07:31:33 <Supercheese> "Hoc adhibendum non est"
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07:37:35 <peter1138> And semaphore signals can have lights too...
07:39:01 <Supercheese> It's a bit of a sticky wicket
07:39:28 <Supercheese> some chap decided that signal and semaphore would be the same word in Latin
07:40:24 <peter1138> That's the problem with a dead language, it doesn't evolve.
07:47:13 <Supercheese> Wait did the Harry Potter railway ever mention signals?
07:47:28 <Supercheese> The first two books have official Latin translations
07:47:41 <V453000> why do you translate to latin anyway
07:47:46 <Supercheese> and Ancient Greek too, I believe
07:47:50 <Alberth> I wondered about that too :)
07:48:03 <Alberth> maybe they missed Klingon?
07:48:09 <peter1138> There was that pig-latin translation once...
07:49:45 <__ln__> Supercheese: since it's not on webtranslator, do you have a backup copy of the translation somewhere? it would be a great pity if all work was lost due to hard disk failure.
07:49:46 <Haube> Egyptian Hieroglyphs would be nice too, but then i would want to carry stones around ;)
07:50:05 <Supercheese> __ln__: Yes it is also synched to my Google drive
07:50:22 <Supercheese> after you last mentioned I should have a backup, in fact :)
07:51:39 <__ln__> good, yes, i remember asking that earlier too :)
07:53:58 <Supercheese> I dunno, I think it'd be a lot cooler if we called it "hamaxostichus" instead of boring old "train"
08:08:35 <Supercheese> "Loading {1:STRING} as static NewGRF with {STRING} could cause desyncs" Oh goodness
08:11:25 <Supercheese> actually that wasn't so bad
08:11:39 <__ln__> what's NewGRF in latin?
08:11:57 <Supercheese> like with every other language
08:12:17 * Supercheese wonders if any of them actually change it
08:12:58 <Supercheese> even Cyrillic languages keep it
08:15:27 <Rubidium> not something like novum ludum opem tabularium ?
08:15:33 <__ln__> ha, in hebrew it's not NewGRF in all messages at least.
08:15:47 <Supercheese> well, they've even flipped text direction
08:16:12 <Supercheese> and it seems to be still NewGRF
08:16:28 <Supercheese> 159 matches to that
08:17:13 <Supercheese> wait, I had match case off
08:17:45 <Supercheese> 35, yeah it has fewer
08:18:05 <Supercheese> perhaps there are untranslated strings though
08:30:10 <Wolf01> reg query finds the key, reg delete no
08:41:40 <Supercheese> Hmm, can genders be passed through twice?
08:42:16 <Supercheese> e.g. STR_QUANTITY_GRAIN has "{WEIGHT_LONG} frumenti"
08:42:33 <Supercheese> and the weight string is grabbed as "{G=n}{COMMA}{NBSP}chiliogramma{P "" ta}"
08:43:00 <Supercheese> will the neutral gender be passed through to STR_QUANTITY_GRAIN, and it will inherit the gender?
08:43:49 <Rubidium> and maybe though the caller might need to do {G 0:1 ...} or something, but I guess you need to experiment with that
08:44:45 <Supercheese> Yes, although I don't know how I'll get town growth strings to cooperate
08:44:50 <Supercheese> guess I need a game script
08:45:29 <Supercheese> or bin the whole thing and use verbs instead of adjectives
08:46:48 <Rubidium> don't towns in deserts / snowy areas already use those strings?
08:47:51 <Supercheese> not the specific-quantity-of-stuff strings
08:48:03 * Supercheese will just use verbs anyway
08:48:44 <Supercheese> I'm not really sure what uses the "demands X amount of stuff" town growth strings
08:51:13 <peter1138> Bah, it's hard to diagnose the engine preview window :p
08:58:12 <Supercheese> There still is no notification for new wagons...
08:58:33 <Supercheese> although there is Ye Olde Patche for That™
08:59:41 <V453000> is there any way to make the sprite aligner work with EZ?
08:59:46 <Supercheese> and to be fair, introduction of the first monorail would cause a spam of monorail wagon notices...
08:59:48 <V453000> like move sprites by 1 pixel not 4
09:00:39 <V453000> I dont need it for code offset, just for sprite editing ... so the 1 offset value being 4 pixels isnt helping :D
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09:02:17 <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r26933 trunk/src/engine_gui.cpp (2014-09-28 09:02:11 UTC)
09:02:18 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Resize engine preview window to fit vehicle sprite.
09:07:32 <planetmaker> V453000, no. Sprites for all zoom levels follow the same alignment. Thus you align in the 1x zoom and it must fit the others
09:08:43 <V453000> well yeah but the sprites can be sub-4px misaligned :P
09:08:59 <planetmaker> no, it can't. As it's just 2x or 4x zoomed-in
09:09:21 <planetmaker> thus a 1px alignment is then zoomed-in,too, and proportionally enlarged
09:09:35 <V453000> that isnt a question of coding, that is a question of how you create the sprites
09:10:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett certainly made his vehicles move on sub-4px-level
09:10:45 <V453000> am concerned about landscape atm
09:11:52 <peter1138> planetmaker, well the code takes 4x zoomed in as ZOOM_LVL_NORMAL, so "1x" sprites are actually ZOOM_LVL_OUT_4X
09:11:55 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, wasn't that patched source which made that possible?
09:12:33 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: only reading the vehicle position needed some unimplemented variable
09:12:46 <Eddi|zuHause> everything else is "stock"
09:15:18 <peter1138> Let's just increase that 16 to 64 ;)
09:15:50 <peter1138> Or more, because even 16 isn't quite enough at old-1x
09:18:02 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: each of these 16 steps has already 256 substeps
09:19:26 <Eddi|zuHause> (or maybe 192 on diagonals)
09:20:30 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, they're not visual though
09:21:57 <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r26934 trunk/src/engine_gui.cpp (2014-09-28 09:21:51 UTC)
09:21:58 <DorpsGek> -Fix (r26933): Don't statically initialise non-static variables.
09:22:03 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but that missing variable allowed the newgrf to offer that visualisation
09:22:23 <peter1138> yes, but that means the newgrf has to put in a lot of hard work to do it.
09:22:31 <peter1138> if the game just did it itself... much simpler
09:26:22 <Eddi|zuHause> but you can't just multiply existing stuff, or you potentially break things that rely on motion counter
09:27:18 <peter1138> You can divide to get the motion counter
09:29:18 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: but then you need two motion counters. an old and a new one
09:29:47 <peter1138> welcome to backwards compatibility
09:30:23 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: also, while making such a fundamental change, better fix diagonal motion and length distortion
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09:31:22 <peter1138> that's one of the reasons to change it :p
09:32:44 <Eddi|zuHause> but then you break every NewGRF that uses 32px vehicles.
09:33:25 <Eddi|zuHause> which is every NewGRF in the last 8 years...
09:34:54 <andythenorth> no more BAD FEATURES
09:35:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: is that like "world peace"?
09:37:14 <V453000> hm, "how to make landscape" :d
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09:41:47 <andythenorth> then there was trouble
09:42:11 <Pikkaphone> trouble is as trouble does
09:42:41 <Pikkaphone> any more hogs yet?
09:43:04 <andythenorth> if a ‘standard’ truck is 30t
09:43:12 <andythenorth> how big should a mining or logging truck be for same era?
09:43:18 <andythenorth> this is brit-ish-ish
09:43:35 <andythenorth> you have the jackpot
09:43:39 <andythenorth> that was my guess too
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09:43:58 <Rubidium> long, short or metric t?
09:44:36 <andythenorth> when I am looking at realisms, I pick the type of ton/tonner that suits the number I want
09:44:50 <andythenorth> usually the one that gives the highest number :P
09:46:14 <Pikkaphone> but why look at realisms?
09:48:42 <Pikkaphone> nuclear powered hover hogs?
09:49:08 <andythenorth> only with cabeese
09:49:12 <Pikkaphone> horse drawn, naturally
09:50:36 <Pikkaphone> and animated rivets
09:52:14 <andythenorth> I was thinking about horse-drawn cabeese
09:53:48 <andythenorth> I think that would be mornington crescent
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09:59:40 <Eddi|zuHause> are you two still speaking english?
10:02:17 <Pikkaphone2> which it probably doesn't
10:04:33 <andythenorth> in tons or tonnes?
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10:06:12 <andythenorth> we’re doing well
10:06:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds awfully large
10:06:44 <Eddi|zuHause> especially for the low number of axles
10:07:04 <Pikkaphone2> I measure everything in train cars now
10:07:43 <andythenorth> metric or imperial?
10:07:48 <Eddi|zuHause> a train car has four axles with 20t each, so 80t, about 20t of which are its own weight
10:07:55 <Eddi|zuHause> so 1 train car is 60t coal
10:08:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I think you’re confusing metric and imperial train cars
10:09:00 <Pikkaphone2> also too many realisms
10:09:49 <Pikkaphone2> a TTD traincar carries 25-30t
10:10:03 <andythenorth> do you have any cheese?
10:11:15 <andythenorth> although I preferred the original tbh
10:11:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and the pikkaphone6 bends?
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10:12:13 <andythenorth> wonder if my phone bends
10:12:58 <Rubidium> don't worry, it does
10:13:36 <Eddi|zuHause> with muscles and all?
10:13:38 <andythenorth> is inelastic deformation bending?
10:14:21 <Eddi|zuHause> there is elastic bending, and there's inelastic deformation that is not bending
10:14:35 <andythenorth> pretty certain that my phone
10:14:48 <andythenorth> will flex until the inelastic deformation limit is reached
10:14:55 <andythenorth> then it will increase the component count
10:16:03 <andythenorth> I don’t see the problem tbh
10:16:19 <andythenorth> we have loads of metal-bodied mac laptops that are bent
10:16:30 <andythenorth> people put them in their pockets, forget, sit down...
10:16:48 <Alberth> they are too small :p
10:16:54 <andythenorth> bending is a feature
10:20:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see the problem either.
10:20:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no smartphone, and no mac laptop either
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10:49:38 <argoneus> Rubidium: ah, thanks! is this something you know or is this documented somewhere?
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11:00:06 <argoneus> SEND_MTU = 1460 // the maximum number of bytes we can pack in a single packet
11:00:37 <Rubidium> but as said before, assume the worst (network corruption or evil wise)
11:00:56 <argoneus> thing is I have no clue if ottd appends some sort of delimiter to each message or not
11:01:08 <argoneus> I was trying to find the code that actually sends packets and couldn't find it
11:02:58 <Rubidium> it has a header though
11:04:16 <Rubidium> see packet.h and packet.cpp
11:12:09 <argoneus> Rubidium: from what I am seeing, it just asserts that the data isn't larger than 1460 bytes, no?
11:12:40 <argoneus> so it should always send no more than that, and the tcp protocol guarantees I get correct data, no?
11:12:49 <Rubidium> when sending data out, yet... but not when receiving
11:13:05 <argoneus> or does tcp only make sure you receive -something-/
11:13:58 <Rubidium> there is some error checking, but there is no guarantee
11:17:32 <argoneus> Rubidium: I still don't get it :( in packet.cpp at l179, it just kicks you off if you send too much data
11:18:39 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: always assume the other side didn't implement the protocol correctly
11:19:02 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: your program must accept any random set of data, and filter out the valid ones from that
11:19:35 <argoneus> but it just checks "is packet too big? nope, okay, read it"
11:19:42 <argoneus> and I don't understand
11:20:09 <argoneus> n = (uint32)this->buffer[this->pos++];
11:20:40 <argoneus> so this reads the value at the current buffer byte, and stores it in an uint?
11:20:47 <argoneus> but then, why does it go to the next byte, and bitshift it by 8
11:21:20 <Eddi|zuHause> uint32 is 4 bytes, but may be big endian or little endian
11:21:32 <Eddi|zuHause> so the bytes in the buffer must be arranged correctly
11:22:06 <argoneus> isn't it little endian 99% of the time?
11:22:07 <Eddi|zuHause> can't just read 4 bytes and assume the correct value
11:23:44 <argoneus> I still fail to grasp this
11:23:59 <argoneus> you read a uint32 number, but then basically lose the first 2 bytes
11:24:45 <argoneus> or am I missing something major
11:25:33 <Eddi|zuHause> no. you read uint8
11:25:52 <Eddi|zuHause> and put that into an uint32
11:26:05 <Eddi|zuHause> then you read another uint8, and put that in a different position in the same uint32
11:26:08 <Eddi|zuHause> then you read another uint8, and put that in a different position in the same uint32
11:27:06 <Eddi|zuHause> the combination of all these uint8s makes up your uint32
11:30:57 <Alberth> you get a stream of bytes from the network, and have to assemble the bytes to 4 byte integers, in code that works both for little endian and big endian
11:32:27 <argoneus> wait, this byte assembling works for both LE and BE?
11:32:53 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, because the compiler knows what to do when casting uint8 to uint32, and bitshifting
11:34:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and LE/BE is known to the compiler
11:37:32 <Eddi|zuHause> 13:37, good time as any to go out...
11:38:08 <argoneus> so apparently big endian is the standard with networking
11:38:57 <Alberth> openttd may use it, that doesn't make it a standard in networking in general :)
11:39:27 <argoneus> there is some RFC that defines big endian as standard
11:39:49 <Eddi|zuHause> big endian is the more logical one if you come from a non-hardware-design perspective
11:40:30 <argoneus> big endian is the one where if I have 1111 0000 0000 1111, it will be stored as F00F ?
11:40:45 <argoneus> aka the intuitive way
11:41:07 <argoneus> then I have to wonder
11:41:16 <argoneus> why libottdadmin2 explicitely forces little endian
11:41:24 <argoneus> and even defines its own Struct for that
11:41:54 <Eddi|zuHause> most common (RIFF) file formats are little endian
11:42:41 <argoneus> if openttd sends big endian packets, and is able to read both, why would you -force- LE?
11:43:00 <Eddi|zuHause> no, you got that backwards
11:43:27 <Eddi|zuHause> the computer that the code runs on can be both LE and BE. the protocol that is transmitted is always the same
11:44:17 * argoneus has never got into networking properly
11:44:25 <Eddi|zuHause> and if the protocol says to use LE, then that is what it must be.
11:44:52 <argoneus> someone here said openttd uses big endian, and TCP uses big endian too
11:45:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the "protocol" here is the admin port protocol
11:45:20 <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't matter what TCP uses
11:45:28 <Eddi|zuHause> TCP is completely transparent to the user
11:48:42 <Alberth> admin port and server-client traffic are two independent things
11:49:06 <Alberth> there is no reason to force both to use the same encoding
11:50:40 <argoneus> Alberth: consistency? :<
11:59:55 <planetmaker> consistency is only for the weak-minded :P
12:01:49 <Alberth> and for companies to have meetings about :p
12:04:47 <Alberth> apparently someone decided otherwise at some point in the past. It's not a big problem imho, just abstract it away to "write stuff to the network" and "read stuff from the network", and it's solved :)
12:13:57 <Rubidium> arguably the endianness of ALL OpenTTD binary network protocols is the same
12:14:43 <Rubidium> mostly because all use Packet which kinda makes it cumbersome to not use the protocol endianness of Packet
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13:58:31 <TomyLobo> my 4096x4096 map takes about 15 seconds to autosave. is that normal?
13:58:43 <planetmaker> slow disk and computer: why not
13:59:19 <planetmaker> it's as huge a map as you can get. And if you're watching a stream next to and and suck dry some leet torrents...
13:59:25 <TomyLobo> it's only like 1-2 years old
13:59:59 <LordAro> saving a 4kx4k map is *going* to be slow
14:00:05 <LordAro> there's not much you can do about that
14:00:14 <TomyLobo> the worst thing that's running is steam but that's not loading anything right now
14:00:26 <planetmaker> not even downloading?
14:00:42 <planetmaker> it's known to auto-update stuff
14:03:02 <planetmaker> maybe you're also out-of ram and it needs to swap a lot
14:03:17 <planetmaker> as it first needs to make a complete copy of the map and then saves the copy
14:03:41 <TomyLobo> openttd takes 387 mb right now
14:04:05 <TomyLobo> i doubt it makes a dent :)
14:04:40 <peter1138> Yeah, 4Kx4K is quite big, and takes a while to compress.
14:09:12 <peter1138> Since when is age of the computer a good indication of its speed, anyway? :p
14:09:35 <TomyLobo> but until netbooks came about
14:10:40 <planetmaker> so it's a 1.5 year old smartphone or tablet?
14:11:12 <TomyLobo> yes, a 1.5 year old smartphone with 8gb of ram
14:11:49 <TomyLobo> and netbooks came before smartphones and tablets, btw
14:14:06 <b_jonas> there are smartphones with 8 GB of ram?
14:14:22 <Alberth> RAM is easy and cheap
14:14:31 <b_jonas> sure, but in a smartphone too?
14:14:37 <Alberth> the question is does it have a fast CPU :p
14:14:39 <TomyLobo> b_jonas i was being sarcastic
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14:25:07 <Flygon> There's smartphones more powerful than my laptop
14:26:00 <Flygon> Now if there was x64 Smartphones
14:27:32 <FLHerne> Not very many, but someone certainly made an Intel-based Android device
14:29:32 <Flygon> Still waiting on looping OTTD maps
14:29:49 <peter1138> have you got a patch for it?
14:29:49 <Flygon> Civ II style looping anyone?
14:30:00 <Flygon> I'm a lazy idiot civillian
14:30:12 <Flygon> That complains about features that are too hard to code not being in the game
14:30:28 <peter1138> yeah, sometimes i forget i was born with the ability to code
14:31:21 <Flygon> Tony Stark or something?
14:44:36 <peter1138> Generating a 4096x4096 map... reminds me of starting up Civ on my 386.
14:44:42 <peter1138> That took ages too :p
14:45:52 <peter1138> Original, obviously.
14:45:52 <Flygon> Do a 2048*2048 Alpha Centauri game
14:46:09 <Flygon> Their algorithms are... well, there's reason they warn to not breach 256*256
15:14:28 <FLHerne> Hmm, the tile-based Python thing I'm hobby-poking on does that
15:15:12 <FLHerne> Somehow manages to use exponentially-increasing amounts of memory as the map size increases
15:54:29 <Alberth> growing dictionary of tiles or so?
15:56:43 <FLHerne> Alberth: List. I don't really understand why.
15:57:31 <FLHerne> Goes from about 200B per-element (elements are fairly small) to >800B per-element
15:58:03 <FLHerne> I assume it's indexing its elements in some way that doesn't scale well, but aargh
15:58:25 <FLHerne> I'm trying to make it use a big numpy array instead
15:59:50 <Alberth> make a big list in one go [None] * (much) ?
16:00:22 <Alberth> should save some re-sizing and memory fragmentation due to that
16:01:33 <Alberth> I also found it helps if you aggressively set variables to None after use, when they point to big things and don't go out of scope
16:04:45 <FLHerne> Alberth: The first thing looks simple to try and makes sense, I'll try that :-)
16:04:59 <Alberth> sys.getsizeof(object[, default]) <-- if you want to get funky :p
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16:08:34 <FLHerne> Creating the thing in one go had no appreciable affect, sadly
16:09:24 <FLHerne> I think just keeping all the data in a big numpy array should be a lot more efficient, because Python objects seem to have a massive individual size overhead that I don't really need
16:11:00 <Alberth> that shouldn't explain the growth per element, imho
16:11:20 <Alberth> element overhead doesn't grow if you have more of them
16:11:54 <FLHerne> True, but even 200B is a bit silly for something with a couple of bytes of actual information
16:12:23 <Alberth> there is also "slots" for classes, where you remove the dictionary of the object
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16:12:56 <Alberth> at the cost of not being able to make random new fields in them
16:15:15 <Alberth> I once threw out the lists by making a double-linked list myself
16:15:32 <Alberth> Obviously that will work horribly if you need random access :)
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16:17:04 <FLHerne> Alberth: Ooh, hadn't heard of that. Looks useful.
16:22:50 <Alberth> slots is not recommended practice :p
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16:44:20 <andythenorth> any gameplay advantage to single unit RVs?
16:44:30 <andythenorth> they can use drive-in stops, is that a thing?
16:45:12 <Alberth> I hardly use drive-in things, too complicated
16:45:37 <peter1138> unless multi-part RVs can overtake these days
16:45:53 <andythenorth> good point though
16:46:02 <andythenorth> mining trucks overtaking
16:46:03 <Alberth> don't use enough RVs for overtaking
16:50:35 <andythenorth> train sets definitely easier to design than RVs
16:50:38 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Usually shorter, which is good for congestion
16:51:11 <FLHerne> Even per-capacity, I think
17:15:17 <peter1138> Ahhhh, this 2X UI is so usable for my oldness :p
17:16:14 <peter1138> Hmm, maybe I should just ditch my triple screen setup and go for a 50" 1920x1080 display...
17:24:12 <peter1138> No, I'm keeping it for myself.
17:24:26 <peter1138> I reckon a few years down the line I can say "I've got a patch for that."
17:26:13 <andythenorth> I have a whole truck set somewhere
17:26:22 <andythenorth> didn’t quite work
17:34:14 <andythenorth> Ding Dong Mining Hauler
17:34:18 <andythenorth> naming of parts :P
17:34:53 <peter1138> 16 changed files :(
17:37:27 <Pikka> is Leslie Phillips driving it, andythenorth?
17:38:08 <andythenorth> Boom Boom Mining Hauler
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17:40:31 <Pikka> obscure half-puns for vehicle names are a good feature
17:42:39 <andythenorth> but do you have any cheese?
17:43:04 <peter1138> No, I wash regularly
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17:59:45 <andythenorth> do you want ekranoplans?
18:04:49 <Alberth> there is little point of having a train if ships are equally fast or faster
18:05:23 <Alberth> they are much easier to build
18:07:14 <andythenorth> I’ve sorted out most of Road Hog
18:07:19 <andythenorth> I have this one weird case
18:07:57 <andythenorth> I often build tertiary industries (consumers of metal, manufacturing supplies etc) near the secondary that produces them
18:08:07 <andythenorth> there are some in HEQS
18:08:19 <andythenorth> they are short and haul ~100t or so
18:08:30 <andythenorth> and I use them on short flat routes where speed doesn’t matter much
18:08:41 <Alberth> sort of short distance scrap metal
18:08:50 <andythenorth> yes, or steel etc
18:09:20 <andythenorth> gameplay doesn’t benefit much from progression with these
18:09:27 <andythenorth> they’re only worth using on short routes
18:09:38 <andythenorth> and they’re only worth using if high capacity
18:09:54 <andythenorth> so can’t figure out generations
18:10:22 <Alberth> have less generations?
18:12:01 <Alberth> of improve in smaller steps, ie only max speed, or capacity, but not both at the same time
18:12:55 <Pikka> if there's no progression, don't have generations
18:14:40 <andythenorth> Pikka: tram 4 eva?
18:16:16 <andythenorth> I might do one day some ‘industrial’ rosters or something
18:16:19 <andythenorth> just 2 generations
18:16:35 <andythenorth> all the silly big slow industrial things, rail and road
18:16:47 <andythenorth> just play for 50 years
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19:05:05 <Pikka> roadtypes for 1.5, then?
19:05:11 <Pikka> you've got until april, plenty of time
19:05:37 <andythenorth> world peace before roadtypes
19:05:58 <andythenorth> tramway, powered tramway, road, powered road
19:06:04 <Pikka> too much realisms, though
19:06:11 <andythenorth> limitations cause creativity no?
19:06:40 <Pikka> does having different roadtypes add to gameplay?
19:06:47 <Pikka> does having different railtypes add to gameplay?
19:06:56 <Pikka> it only adds to realisms
19:07:21 <andythenorth> not sure about NG
19:07:48 <Pikka> metro trains, perhaps. but would it really make much difference if they ran on "normal" track?
19:08:06 <andythenorth> I obviously think so :)
19:08:21 <frosch123> better add a feature to colour your roads
19:08:21 <andythenorth> have to build segregated routes through cities
19:08:45 <andythenorth> not sure that powered road tiles add much
19:08:56 <andythenorth> but the catenary on non-electric trams bugs me
19:09:02 <andythenorth> enough other eye candy crap is provided
19:09:20 <Pikka> the default catenary is pretty ugly
19:09:28 <andythenorth> and if we split ‘add power’ on the road building, might as well allow electric roads
19:09:38 <andythenorth> for your electric horses
19:09:38 <Pikka> "good" catenary is either less noticable or completely hidden imo
19:10:03 <andythenorth> we could fix the default?
19:10:11 <andythenorth> I usually make it invisible due to so ugly
19:10:51 <Pikka> then it won't look so bad
19:10:56 <Pikka> even with non-electric trams
19:11:21 <andythenorth> so no powered bit?
19:12:01 <Pikka> it just seems like one more awkward hard-coded fudge to get around if roadtypes are ever added. + no trolley bus. Can't see it really adds anything except realisms? :o
19:12:21 <Pikka> if you want restricted passenger vehicles, make them trams
19:13:09 <andythenorth> partly it would amuse me to see not-roadtypes
19:13:15 <Pikka> DanMacK, draw us better default tram catenary! :D
19:13:22 <Pikka> that's because you're a stirrer, andythenorth
19:14:07 <andythenorth> if nobody had ever added stupid things like livery overrides
19:14:11 <andythenorth> where would we be today?
19:14:36 <Pikka> I was thinking of removing livery overrides from a pineapple, actually. D:
19:14:52 <andythenorth> I don’t even know what they are tbh
19:14:55 <Pikka> making each coach generation a seperate vehicle. let players mix and match
19:15:18 <Pikka> it would make "properly" upgrading MUs a bit more convoluted though.
19:15:57 <andythenorth> better living through Extending The Spec in The Wrong Direction
19:16:20 <andythenorth> I’m sure that’s in Brian Eno’s cards
19:16:28 <Pikka> Extending the Spec with BAD FEATURES which nobody in their right mind will ever use
19:16:42 <Pikka> (see; aircraft range, and some other stuff I'm sure)
19:17:08 <Pikka> it seemed like a good idea at the time :)
19:17:52 <andythenorth> “Do something sudden, destructive and unpredictable”
19:18:08 <Pikka> you should use these for extra-text-in-buy-menu
19:18:16 <Pikka> or industry window descriptions
19:18:29 <andythenorth> what is ‘extra-text-in-buy-menu’ please?
19:19:12 <andythenorth> I mostly removed it, except for boots
19:19:18 <andythenorth> and even there I’m considering it....
19:19:54 <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r26935 trunk/src/company_gui.cpp (2014-09-28 19:19:47 UTC)
19:19:55 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Fit company colour selection drop down list to UI scale.
19:19:56 <Pikka> at least you have some kind of build environment with language files. I was dicking about with manually adding translations. :D
19:20:14 <andythenorth> well I broke the build environment with partial-compiling
19:20:22 <Pikka> I asked people for translations
19:20:25 <Pikka> they provided translations
19:20:30 <Pikka> I couldn't be bothered adding them to the grf
19:20:57 <andythenorth> naughty Pikka that Pikka
19:21:25 <Pikka> now I'm back to an english-only and minimal text policy :)
19:21:43 <andythenorth> If I could remove the text from FIRS I would
19:22:00 <Pikka> btw, please make an american horse ASAP
19:22:13 <Pikka> so I can point people to it when they insist on using NARS
19:22:51 <Pikka> does FIRS have much text?
19:23:17 <andythenorth> if I could remove it
19:23:20 <andythenorth> partial compiles would work
19:23:31 <andythenorth> ~20s instead of 3 mins
19:23:34 <Pikka> supplies are a really good feature
19:23:38 <Pikka> it's just the text, huh?
19:25:44 <andythenorth> I only invented supplies so I could add some Nodwells to HEQS
19:25:50 <andythenorth> and I never added them
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19:39:18 <TomyLobo> is it possible to make the multi-player autosave asynchronous, like in single-player mode?
19:41:47 <TomyLobo> it halts the game for some seconds
19:42:01 <peter1138> Well, there's the bit where it needs to make a complete copy of the map.
19:42:04 <TomyLobo> up to the point where everyone gets timeout warnings
19:42:46 <TomyLobo> hmmm, most of the map doesnt change, right?
19:42:54 <peter1138> . o O ( There was a reason not to allow stupidly large maps... )
19:43:16 <TomyLobo> actually, why doesnt it halt the game in SP?
19:43:50 <TomyLobo> by halting the game, i mean i get that "application does not respond" stuff
19:45:22 <peter1138> Windows users, how quaint :-)
19:45:34 <TomyLobo> i doubt it'd be much better on linux
19:46:00 <peter1138> That stuff only means it didn't respond to some Windows event, not that it is halted.
19:46:24 <TomyLobo> but it doesnt draw, and doesnt respond to input
19:46:37 <peter1138> Because it's busy saving, I suppose.
19:46:47 <TomyLobo> and why is that not happening in SP?
19:47:22 <peter1138> Then I guess it is not a threaded save.
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19:51:15 <TomyLobo> what would make a paused multiplayer game where nothing happens different from a paused singleplayer game where nothing happens?
20:03:28 <andythenorth> heavy haulage trucks?
20:03:38 <andythenorth> low-loaders etc for supplies
20:08:56 <Pikka> so many trucks and realisms
20:20:06 <peter1138> sometimes i think anti-realism is going to far
20:20:19 <peter1138> not doing something because it might be realism
20:20:33 <b_jonas> peter1138: uh, can you give an example for that?
20:20:36 <Pikka> no-one's avoiding things because they might be realism
20:20:40 <andythenorth> I have added unrealistic beer trams
20:20:44 <peter1138> (put it this way, ukrs2 is WAY more enjoyable than 10cc)
20:21:09 <andythenorth> also unrealistical milk tanker trams
20:21:18 <andythenorth> and next, unrealistical oil tanker trams
20:22:11 <andythenorth> but also most unrealistical things turn out to have happened, somewhere
20:22:16 <andythenorth> with enough google
20:27:44 <Pikka> what makes ukrs2 WAY more enjoyable than 10cc?
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20:36:56 <andythenorth> doesn’t pineapple have limits?
20:37:04 <andythenorth> I thought it had low-powered engines and stuff?
20:39:23 <Pikka> ukrs2 has a mail wagon which has a 10mph lower speed limit than one locomotive, which is apparently not an enjoyable limit but "extremely annoying".
20:41:01 <FLHerne> Pikka: The thing there is that it's sane for pax/mail to use the same routes or even trains (because the cargos behave identically), and 10mph is enough to be annoying but not to really make a difference :P
20:42:20 <andythenorth> ukrs 2 hasn’t gone away
20:42:37 <Pikka> it should, but it hasn't :)
20:42:44 <Pikka> although not as much as NARS2 should
20:43:02 <FLHerne> Pikka: It won't, until BROS gets done :P
20:43:35 <Pikka> I thought we'd had at least a couple of reincarnations since BROS?
20:43:37 <andythenorth> I really managed not to troll the Yet Another New BROS thread
20:44:10 <andythenorth> was quite proud of myself
20:44:26 <andythenorth> maybe Iron Horsies can kill NARS 2
20:44:36 <andythenorth> it’s not as much realisms
20:44:44 <andythenorth> maybe just enough
20:44:54 <Pikka> I honestly thought this week about making a better NARS
20:44:59 <Pikka> cut down, no bad features
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20:45:14 <Pikka> but then I couldn't be bothered and thought we can just wait until American Horses
20:45:19 <Pikka> speaking of which, hello DanMacK
20:45:59 <andythenorth> I kind of need one more silly vehicles for Road Hog brit roster
20:46:05 <andythenorth> it’s a bit logical right now
20:46:20 <andythenorth> 4 generations of each vehicle type, types match your industries
20:46:28 <andythenorth> is fine, but needs something odd
20:46:58 <DanMacK> heavy/slow well truck?
20:47:41 <b_jonas> andythenorth: what are the four generations? horse-drawn, steam, diesel, electric?
20:48:05 <Pikka> DanMacK, we decided roadtypes was a bad idea anyway, just now. so we don't need to do them any more.
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20:49:53 <Pikka> do brithogs have silly vehicles?
20:50:08 <Pikka> no road trains, no trailer buses
20:50:31 <andythenorth> brithogs not so much
20:50:40 <andythenorth> beer tram, grain tram
20:50:44 <andythenorth> all very sensible
20:50:52 <andythenorth> there’s a silly container thing
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20:51:18 <peter1138> I should implement roadtypes just to spite you :D
20:51:35 <andythenorth> no bulldozers, no tractors, nothing like that
20:51:40 <andythenorth> no snowplough...
20:56:16 <andythenorth> saving it for a Euro roster
20:56:23 <andythenorth> all the whacky Dutch and German trucks
20:56:51 <DanMacK> You should implement Roadtypes anyway :P
20:57:03 <andythenorth> fork lift truck?
20:57:43 <TomyLobo> is there a way to upgrade depots including the contained trains to monorail/maglev? will there ever be? :)
20:58:49 <Pikka> not unless you have a third railtype that's compatible with both to use as an intermediary, TomyLobo
20:59:02 <Pikka> I think some rail set has one, probably by V.
20:59:56 <peter1138> oh, hmm, mind you the offsets are wrong in 1.4.3 too
21:00:34 <TomyLobo> Pikka couldnt the vehicle replacing algo be used for that?
21:01:25 <peter1138> Feel free to write a patch to do that :D
21:01:32 <SpComb> peter1138: this [x] button thing to close a window is soooo outdated
21:01:48 <SpComb> you should just be able to swipe the dialog off the screen instead
21:02:09 <peter1138> Feel free to write a patch to do that :D
21:02:19 <Pikka> peter1138, well, the sprites are already double-size, so yeah, they're going to go off the top :)
21:02:30 <Pikka> I'll undouble them for the next release
21:02:40 <peter1138> Pikka, it's not using the double sprites there.
21:03:09 <Pikka> oh. well, it's still using sprites double the size what they should be
21:03:34 <Pikka> I basically coded 4x sprites as 2x sprites for the buy menu
21:03:49 <peter1138> that's not the buy menu :)
21:03:51 <SpComb> peter1138: maybe you need display: table-cell on the row and then vertical-align: middle; on the image!
21:04:01 <SpComb> this was the html5 rewrite branch, wasn't it?
21:04:04 <Pikka> in which case, ignore me. :)
21:04:05 <peter1138> did you set the y-offset thing. if you did, then i guess it's just not used there.
21:04:29 <Pikka> I don't know what I set the y-offset thing to
21:04:32 <Pikka> I possibly didn't set it
21:04:32 <b_jonas> and selective garbage truck, available from 2000?
21:04:43 <peter1138> because your trains sit on the tracks, and you can see the wheels
21:04:51 <b_jonas> or more like, selective garbage is produced only from 2000 in cities
21:05:06 <peter1138> ttd trains sit over the tracks, no wheels visible, at least in most cases
21:05:33 <andythenorth> b_jonas: probably will do bin lorries yes, for FIRS recyclables
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21:06:00 <Pikka> I'll add it to the list of things to look into for the next version
21:06:12 <DanMacK> I add wheels but for the angles they'd really be invisible
21:06:42 <b_jonas> is there a set that replaces trams with trolleys?
21:06:53 <DanMacK> you mean trolley buses?
21:07:11 <b_jonas> probably those don't match trams well, because they need road too
21:07:20 <b_jonas> there's no sense in building trolley-only road
21:07:40 <b_jonas> (they need... road types)
21:07:56 <Pikka> no they don't, they just need to be coded as normal road vehicles ;)
21:08:11 <andythenorth> hmm 30km/h 65t capacity forklifts o_O
21:08:28 <andythenorth> maybe in road hog
21:09:56 <b_jonas> um, taxis which take passengers anywhere, not just in stations?
21:10:17 <Pikka> definitely the crocodile, andythenorth
21:10:27 <andythenorth> the book is upstairs
21:10:39 <andythenorth> watermelon wagon?
21:11:13 <b_jonas> oh... ice cream lorries, which sell the ice cream to cities gradually, without stations in the city
21:11:22 <b_jonas> (still needs a station at the ice cream factory)
21:11:32 <b_jonas> nah, that's too toyland
21:12:20 <b_jonas> combine harvesters that don't transport anything but make farms produce more?
21:12:36 <b_jonas> oh, I know! amphibious buses that can go on roads and rivers
21:12:48 <b_jonas> those exist in real life though they're a very bad idea
21:13:22 <b_jonas> make them break down often, and get destroyed by crashing in the water
21:14:09 <Rubidium> peter1138: async autosave in MP is hard as that save interferes with saving for joins, and as such it's not async
21:18:01 <b_jonas> flying cars from 2000?
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22:48:16 <peter1138> but richard scarry!
22:49:07 <FLHerne> peter1138: Ha, I love those books :D
23:00:48 <Pikka> no swearing on the forums, peter1138. tut tut.
23:03:50 <peter1138> Hmm, non-TGP maps are broken :S
23:04:07 <peter1138> Should be a couple of water tiles around each edge, I think.
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