IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-09-25
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04:15:48 <Supercheese> Hmm, the tooltip for the button to begin autoreplacement bugs me
04:15:55 <Supercheese> "Press to begin replacement of the left selected engine type with the right selected engine type"
04:16:07 <Supercheese> The problem is it always says "engine type" even when replacing ships and airplanes...
04:16:16 <Supercheese> which aren't really referred to as "engines"
04:16:37 <Supercheese> I'd like to see it say "vehicle type"
04:16:57 <Supercheese> STR_REPLACE_HELP_START_BUTTON for reference
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05:11:40 <Sylf> vehicle type works too when you're replacing unpowered wagons
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05:15:04 <Supercheese> Well, I find these very minor issues when translating
05:15:51 <Supercheese> that reminds me of another problem...
05:17:27 <V453000> solution dont translate =D
05:18:21 <Supercheese> at least they're all easy fixes
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07:01:22 <Supercheese> Yes, finally an accusative supine
07:01:45 <Supercheese> been wanting to use one
07:04:56 <Supercheese> Chiefly in clauses that show a purpose of an action, "Something is heading for ___"
07:05:14 <Supercheese> In this case, "Heading for maintenance" -> "Iens ministratum"
07:05:56 <Supercheese> my textbook exemplar was, "Eo ambulatum" -> "I am going for a walk"
07:06:00 <Supercheese> or "going to walk"
07:08:29 <Supercheese> the remains of a copypasta defect, I presume
07:14:21 <Supercheese> although hmm now that I think about it the supine may be too active and not passive enough, blerg
07:16:20 <Supercheese> need a deponent verb
07:18:50 <planetmaker> those are subtleties which elude my crude latin knowledge, I guess :D
07:20:27 <Supercheese> yeah, the lack of a progressive case in Latin requires more finesse in translation
07:21:02 <Supercheese> well, among other things :P
07:22:26 <peter1138> Just change the first to be singular
07:22:50 <Supercheese> Yes, forcing everything singular is one route
07:23:05 <peter1138> a vehicle's power is very odd to have
07:23:09 <Supercheese> alternatively, force everything plural, take your pick
07:23:46 <planetmaker> singular sounds better in some cases (like with power). And never hurts in those where it's currently plural. IMHO
07:23:53 <peter1138> i think the whole thing sounds crap
07:23:54 <Supercheese> Well, I suppose there could be other powers, perhaps from the power plant
07:24:07 <Supercheese> although not in the default industries
07:24:10 <peter1138> Whenever ... , do this
07:24:16 <peter1138> is quite a horrible phrasing :p
07:24:18 <planetmaker> power is rather uncountable
07:24:51 <Supercheese> Well, I suspect the majority of the Advanced Settings help texts were written rather quickly, since they did not exist for a long time and then suddenly all materialized
07:25:01 <Supercheese> although these units were added later on
07:25:26 * Supercheese wonders when the helptexts showed up first, digs logs
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07:25:35 <peter1138> Show volume in the selected unit
07:25:55 <peter1138> Show andythenorth in the selected unit
07:26:15 <andythenorth> select peter1138 in the unit shown
07:28:12 <DorpsGek> Supercheese: Commit by alberth :: r24235 /trunk/src (3 files in 2 dirs) (2012-05-12 10:09:56 UTC)
07:28:13 <DorpsGek> Supercheese: -Add: Add help-strings for the settings in the advanced settings window.
07:29:30 <Supercheese> although units only showed up in:
07:29:35 <DorpsGek> Supercheese: Commit by rubidium :: r25508 /trunk/src (9 files in 4 dirs) (2013-06-29 09:47:18 UTC)
07:29:36 <DorpsGek> Supercheese: -Change: split unit localisation choice into a choice per type of unit, and move it to the advanced settings
07:29:37 <DorpsGek> Supercheese: -Feature [FS#5482]: have tractive effort in imperial (lbf) and metric (kgf) units
07:29:38 <DorpsGek> Supercheese: -Feature: have weights and volumes in imperial units (short tons, gallons)
07:34:23 <andythenorth> none of those commits add roadtypes
07:51:08 <argoneus> Eddi|zuHause2: Sylf well, I made a savegame on my windows 1.4.3 client, then copied it along with the newgrfs to my server, then ran server, loaded the save, worked fine so far, but when I did restart I got a slightly different map, it waws similar, but some places were different, cities appeared in the middle of water etc
07:52:05 <Sylf> you restarted? not reload the map?
07:52:57 <argoneus> I wrote "restart" into the console
07:53:05 <Sylf> that generates a new map
07:53:46 <argoneus> but I thought the map has the same seed and settings as the savegame?
07:54:09 <argoneus> restart game Restart the same game.
07:54:15 <Sylf> same seed, yes, but it will still has new randomness
07:54:31 <argoneus> how can I reload a savegame from 1956 in 1950 then
07:54:37 <Sylf> if you want the exact same map over and over, just reload the map
07:54:55 <argoneus> reload as in load it again with the same date?
07:55:13 <Sylf> the original save game never changes
07:55:47 <Supercheese> if you don't have the original save...
07:55:55 <Supercheese> well, you may be out of luck
07:56:03 <argoneus> so I should probably just like
07:56:07 <argoneus> pause immediately when game starts
07:56:36 <peter1138> technically if it's the same seed then it should be completely the same
07:56:36 <Sylf> If you copied the file to the server once, that file on the server stays
07:56:43 <peter1138> 08:54 < Sylf> same seed, yes, but it will still has new randomness
07:56:45 <Sylf> or are you writing over that file?
07:56:48 <peter1138> that actually makes no sense
07:56:59 <peter1138> that's like... it's the same seed, but the seed is different
07:57:18 <Sylf> I've tried to regenerate maps with same seed and came out differently in the past
07:57:37 <Sylf> they look similar - where the water is etc
07:57:44 <peter1138> landscape is probably the same
07:57:56 <peter1138> but towns and industries different?
07:58:05 <argoneus> I had even landscape changes
07:58:13 <argoneus> there was a natural bridge from one island to another
07:58:23 <argoneus> and in the restarted map it was much narrower
07:58:24 <Sylf> landscape is similar, but not exactly the same
07:59:28 <peter1138> i'm doing "restart" and it's exactly the same
08:00:33 <V453000> whenever I tried, same seed also gave exactly the same map
08:00:41 <V453000> it didnt do quite that with some ancient saves
08:00:48 <argoneus> I can try sending you guys my save
08:00:51 <argoneus> and you try restarting it?
08:00:57 <argoneus> because on my linux server it gives different results
08:01:15 <peter1138> was the save made with the same version?
08:01:21 <Supercheese> what version are you using? 1.4.3?
08:01:35 <peter1138> does loading a save even set the seed?
08:01:37 <peter1138> i don't think it does
08:01:39 <V453000> just restart with a different map :)
08:01:43 <Supercheese> and yes, what version(s) have you been using
08:05:34 <peter1138> and loading a game then doing restart gave me the same map
08:06:41 <peter1138> different map if i load a savegame from the different version, though that's expected
08:08:41 <Sylf> used 2 different machines (different os) with same settings and same seed - they generated different maps
08:09:44 <Sylf> anyway. it's getting late here
08:11:39 <peter1138> different os does not affect it
08:11:43 <peter1138> the rng is the same
08:13:45 <argoneus> I got a fresh 1.4.3 on both windows and linux
08:14:11 <argoneus> do ingame settings matter?
08:14:13 <argoneus> or is it all stored in save
08:15:17 <argoneus> when I get home, I'll try restarting the savegame on my windows where the save was made
08:15:20 <argoneus> and see if I get same results
08:31:49 <peter1138> newgrfs matter, at least
08:36:16 <Pikka> newgrfs are a bad feature
08:40:53 <Pikka> without all this newgrf nonsense we'd have had millions of new airports decades ago
08:41:24 <argoneus> I wish airports were tileable
08:41:36 <argoneus> like you could design taxiways and runways
08:41:47 <argoneus> wouldn't it be possible to fake that with railways?
08:41:54 <argoneus> then again how would they fly
08:42:00 <argoneus> you can't make invisible railways
08:45:57 <Pikka> there was a lot of drama in that thread
08:46:39 <Pikka> a lot of drama about doing things properly vs just getting things done
08:46:59 <argoneus> I don't see any drama :<
08:48:10 <Pikka> maybe it was more apparent at the time. :) anyway, we still don't have new(air)ports. What a shame.
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10:02:39 <Eddi|zuHause> argoneus: and i told you to do this "restart" on the windows client first
10:03:03 <argoneus> sorry, I must have missed it :<
10:03:40 <Eddi|zuHause> there may be a few settings which are not actually saved in the savegame
10:04:13 <Eddi|zuHause> what you describe as "there was a land bridge" may mean different water level
10:06:59 <peter1138> yeah, i don't think the landscape generator settings are saved
10:07:04 <peter1138> so if they change...
10:10:44 <NGC3982> Hey, i just found out about the A-train game.
10:11:46 <NGC3982> What have i missed. :D
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10:20:50 <argoneus> do autosaves not work with dedicated server?
10:20:57 <argoneus> I have monthly autosave on but no saves
10:22:18 <argoneus> oh, wait, the game has been paused since yesterday and not a month has passed
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10:47:54 <V453000> it is greatly offensive to me
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10:50:11 <__ln__> yeah, 'D' contains only consonants, so it is probably some naughty word in czech.
10:52:03 <andythenorth> trucks and thing
10:52:08 <andythenorth> also not roadtypes
10:52:14 <andythenorth> and new stations no happening either
10:52:19 <andythenorth> for no discernible reason
10:52:48 <Pikka> what about hoversellepinz?
10:55:36 <Pikka> I had a thought today that maybe trucks should have no trailer if they have been refitted but not yet recieved cargo
10:55:59 <Pikka> but that might be impossible without an equivalent of prop 25 to store a flag in.
10:57:20 <__ln__> anyone visiting the Security Essen fair?
10:58:39 <andythenorth> Pikka: just no trailer when empty?
10:59:04 <Pikka> eh, I think it's better if they're just driving back and forth, as usual, that they take the empty trailer back
10:59:16 <Pikka> otherwise you end up with a big pile of trailers at one end :)
10:59:30 <andythenorth> also I am adding much trucks and trams to Road Hog
10:59:33 <andythenorth> minimal wasn’t working
10:59:40 <andythenorth> it wasn’t minimal, nor was it enough
11:00:18 <Pikka> I already made "whole hog" jokes, didn't I?
11:00:51 <andythenorth> Pikka: I think there’s fertile ground left there yet
11:06:03 <NGC3982> This is a serious issue
11:06:09 <NGC3982> I'm tired, so i drink coffee
11:06:36 <NGC3982> The coffee makes me more awake, but still tired.
11:07:05 <NGC3982> For some reason, the caffeine effect has turned somewhat surreal
11:07:32 <Eddi|zuHause> you probably should just go to sleep
11:08:19 <NGC3982> I have been sleeping for too long.
11:08:43 <NGC3982> Got to bed at midnight, slept until 11.00, and now i'm here.
11:09:47 <V453000> then the only thing that can help you is vitamins
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11:17:13 <andythenorth> will sort you out
11:17:32 <andythenorth> then top it off with mint tea
11:18:34 <andythenorth> I think Road Hog is losing grip on reality
11:28:20 <Eddi|zuHause> is that klingon?
11:29:32 <andythenorth> today I got new coffee
11:29:36 <andythenorth> intensity 13 out of 10
11:30:14 <andythenorth> the problem is that next it will need to be 14
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11:32:42 <andythenorth> some kind of cuban-indian thing
11:32:59 <NGC3982> The normal Ristretto is my favourite
11:33:16 <andythenorth> it’s just about strong enough
11:33:33 <peter1138> I'm lazy, I get preground and roasted bags in the post...
11:33:38 <NGC3982> 2-3 shots a day for good ol' sanity.
11:33:39 <andythenorth> limited edition cubania
11:34:08 <NGC3982> Ah, i haven't tried it.
11:34:30 <NGC3982> Roma, Arpeggio and Ristretto is basiclly the only thing i use
11:34:50 <NGC3982> I used to have three machines. One in the home office, one in the kitchen and now one at work.
11:35:00 * andythenorth dreams of one at work
11:35:00 <NGC3982> It was the ideal thing to do when wanting to become God.
11:35:05 <andythenorth> it’s my sole ambition in life
11:35:34 <NGC3982> We order almost 300 capsules a month now
11:35:48 <NGC3982> And i'm kinda worried the machine wont survive without service
11:36:29 <NGC3982> It's one of the older versions
11:36:39 <NGC3982> It should have done 3-4000 capsules by now
11:36:51 <NGC3982> And i haven't descaled it since february.
11:37:22 <peter1138> is it 1 capsule per drink?
11:37:36 <andythenorth> but cheaper than silly old costa
11:37:43 <andythenorth> which is now everywhere, like a virus
11:38:08 <NGC3982> Swedish prices are even higher.
11:38:53 <NGC3982> I pay 3,6SEK per Ristretto capsule. That's ..somewhere around 30p, i guess.
11:40:01 <V453000> see it all boils down to a simple solution
11:40:14 <NGC3982> Beer and coffee is actually a fantastic combination.
11:40:21 <NGC3982> When out, i usually order espresso and stout.
11:40:57 <Pikka> when in, you order espresso and stin.
11:43:13 <Pikka> does it make sense for a 32bpp track set to include (some) station platforms too?
11:43:46 <Pikka> or even (lots of) station platforms?
11:44:00 <V453000> id say one or two just for basic support
11:44:13 <V453000> rest I would put to station newgrf
11:44:22 <V453000> I would probably put all of them in a station newgrf though
11:44:32 <andythenorth> thou mayst not mix types in grfs
11:44:37 <andythenorth> even if it would make more sense
11:44:42 <Pikka> well that's the question
11:44:43 <andythenorth> thou must make the user seek out things
11:44:49 <Pikka> are rails and stations the same "type"?
11:44:52 <planetmaker> Pikka, I don't think so. Stations can be coded without tracks. They're composed, thus can go independently
11:45:14 <Pikka> but currently there are no ez track sets, nor ez station sets
11:45:30 <Pikka> so why not a track and station set? :D
11:45:31 <planetmaker> yet. Still I think it makes sense to keep those two separate
11:45:50 <planetmaker> Pikka, because I might want your stations. But not your tracks
11:46:00 <Pikka> there's always hairy parameters ;)
11:46:06 <planetmaker> and a track set included limits my choice of tracks
11:48:49 <V453000> esp since stations are usually often loaded
11:49:03 <V453000> the same way, and rest of newgrfs is changed
11:49:37 <planetmaker> yeah, indeed. I've a list of "always use station sets". And the rest can be adjusted to whatever map I create
11:49:46 <planetmaker> stations are nearly 100% agnostic of the rest of the game
11:49:59 <Pikka> what about bridges? can bridges go in a track set? or a station set? or do I need to make another grf again? :D
11:50:24 <planetmaker> bridges also affect roads. Bridges IMHO belong to a landscape set. Or separate
11:50:39 <V453000> train bridges = separate, road bridges == roads/landscape
11:50:42 <planetmaker> tracks get overlay sprites for bridges, thus bridges adopt to tracks
11:51:38 <planetmaker> bridges make sense to be separate when we really have road types and road overlay for bridges :P
11:52:26 <andythenorth> heat death of the universe will take place before roadtypes
11:52:33 <argoneus> I wish someone made proper metro :(
11:52:35 <andythenorth> unless some future AI decides to do it
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11:59:59 <argoneus> also talking about bridges
12:00:16 <argoneus> I'm rather sad the road bridges don't work with tram bridges
12:00:52 <argoneus> I need to kill off the city's bridge
12:01:02 <argoneus> I can't just build over it
12:01:03 <andythenorth> you can tram over road bridges
12:01:06 <andythenorth> it’s just a PITA to do
12:01:11 <andythenorth> you have to get the right tile
12:01:16 <andythenorth> one of the bridge heads
12:06:45 <V453000> andythenorth: there might be a setting where you cant build over city roads
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12:13:55 <m1oluf> i do tried to download 1.4.3 for debian but it only installs as 1.4.2 can soeone help?
12:14:35 <m1oluf> sorry not for debian but for ubuntu Trusty
12:19:07 <peter1138> i can say there is no problem with the wheezy 64bit version
12:22:17 <peter1138> and... now i need to update my server ;P
12:24:46 <m1oluf> this is for 1.4.3 trusty co
12:25:08 <peter1138> well i can't test them
12:25:18 <peter1138> i will not sully my system with ubuntu
12:25:33 <peter1138> you never said, though, 32 or 64 bit?
12:26:29 <peter1138> the crazy things people do
12:26:38 <__ln__> first it's debian, then ubuntu, then mint
12:26:54 <peter1138> __ln__, thanks, saves me typing that
12:27:36 <m1oluf> my system is mint using package for ubuntu trusty, and it usually working nice.
12:28:11 <NGC3982> The question we all want the answer to, but nobody dares to ask
12:28:24 <NGC3982> Who will create the OpenTTD software for Oculus Rift?
12:28:43 <m1oluf> thist time 1.4.3 come up as 1.4.2 after install
12:29:32 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: i'm afraid oculus rift doesn't work well with ismetric non-rotatable stuff
12:29:58 <peter1138> best you could do is a giant virtual screen... but why?
12:30:01 <m1oluf> what the heck, it's not that important. i'll just let be playing
12:30:02 <NGC3982> I take that as all in favor!
12:30:31 <Eddi|zuHause> m1oluf: most likely you have two versions installed and it starts the wrong one
12:30:44 <NGC3982> Though, i really want somebody to create some kind of xgl dist with Oculus support
12:30:48 <NGC3982> I would be first in line
12:32:45 <NGC3982> I can't really remember the name, but that Linux dist with three dimensional desktops and stuff.
12:33:20 <peter1138> why does a little bit of software need to be a complete distribution?
12:33:59 <NGC3982> Why do you ask me thinks you know i have no idea about.
12:37:57 <Eddi|zuHause> why do you talk about things you have no idea about?
12:38:44 <Eddi|zuHause> "if you kept silent, you would have stayed a philosopher
12:50:29 <andythenorth> what to call a bulk crop truck?
12:50:31 <andythenorth> farm dump truck?
12:50:38 <andythenorth> crop dump truck?
12:50:44 <andythenorth> farm bulk truck?
12:50:45 <Xaroth|Work> your m... wait, wrong time for that joke
12:50:56 <andythenorth> save it for a better moment
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13:06:32 <Pikka> covered hopper truck? grain truck?
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13:07:24 <Eddi|zuHause> harvest dump truck
13:07:47 <Eddi|zuHause> not to confuse with a harvest combine
13:07:59 <Pikka> reverse portuguese armoire?
13:16:24 <andythenorth> Pikka: hauls farm crops that are uncountable and pourable: grain, wheat, fruit, sugar beet, sugar cane, etc
13:17:02 <Pikka> bulk crop truck then. or something.
13:18:06 <andythenorth> ‘cider ingredients truck'
13:18:13 <Pikka> "farm" isn't a cargo class
13:18:20 <andythenorth> do players care about that?
13:18:24 <andythenorth> I called it bulk
13:18:34 <andythenorth> but eh, does anyone care about it being bulk
13:18:40 <Pikka> you can't guarantee that all the cargos it carries are "farm" cargos
13:18:46 <andythenorth> I’m label refitting
13:18:48 <Pikka> unless you're specifying not-by-class, which is naughty
13:19:04 <andythenorth> I’m old enough to drink
13:19:14 <Pikka> what about all those fabulous industry sets which have other labels in the future?
13:19:28 <andythenorth> got a vehicle that refits all, innit
13:19:35 <argoneus> andythenorth: why is your apostrophe broken
13:20:03 <andythenorth> is it all fancy squirls?
13:20:04 <planetmaker> Pikka, it's nicer to go by label for those known. And cater for the unknown only by means of class :)
13:20:15 <planetmaker> but nicer in this context is just my personal preference :)
13:20:16 <argoneus> andythenorth: it's a question mark here
13:20:24 <Pikka> I'd just make it a covered tipper truck ;)
13:20:25 <andythenorth> covered tipper truck
13:20:38 <planetmaker> argoneus, then get an irc client with decent utf8 support
13:20:47 <argoneus> planetmaker: but I have
13:20:59 <argoneus> it could be the web interface that's messing up
13:21:11 <andythenorth> lovely as this is, biab
13:21:19 <planetmaker> "web interface" and "decent irc client" are somewhat mutually exclusive
13:21:27 <argoneus> I use irssi on a vps
13:21:37 <argoneus> and a web frontend because port 22 is blocked at my work
13:21:59 <Pikka> uk keyboards or something
13:22:14 <argoneus> it's my client then :<
13:22:14 <planetmaker> anyhow, the problem is at your end as it is a nice backtick which andy uses. (Not an apostrophe though)
13:22:40 <argoneus> w/e I'll fix it when at home
13:23:20 <andythenorth> this client is doing smart quotes a bit unreliably tbh
13:23:30 <planetmaker> `some are, some aren't`
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13:25:08 <V453000> planetmaker: your reddit comment gained a +1 :P
13:25:22 <Pikka> hooray for internet points
13:26:01 <Pikka> "No distribution of OpenTTD should not contain an openttd.cfg"?
13:26:19 <planetmaker> hm :) One re-forumlation of that sentence too much, I guess :P
13:26:46 <argoneus> ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWA
13:27:04 <planetmaker> I don't see that double negative. You must have erred, Pikka ;)
13:27:39 <V453000> PIKKA LOSES ONE INTERNET POINT
13:27:56 <planetmaker> war of the internet points?
13:28:00 <Pikka> I'll have the same again, V
13:28:02 <planetmaker> can I clone points?
13:28:03 <__ln__> Is it not untrue, that no distribution should not fail to contain a .cfg
13:28:25 <Pikka> we can't not fail to disagree, ln.
13:28:33 <argoneus> just count the negatives
13:28:38 <argoneus> if it's even it means yes
13:28:54 <argoneus> if it's odd it's negative
13:29:05 <V453000> is beer positive or negative
13:29:12 <argoneus> depends on the time of the day
13:31:25 <argoneus> have you ever drank beer before noon
13:31:28 <planetmaker> V453000, untrue. It's presence is totally unstable. Especially in your vicinity
13:31:30 <argoneus> and I don't mean like at 2 AM
13:31:45 <planetmaker> does 6am count? yes
13:32:06 <argoneus> the later in the day, the better the beer tastes
13:32:20 <peter1138> It’s only disgusting if you’re drinking yesterday’s bottle...
13:32:59 <argoneus> why is my locale set to POSIX
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13:54:54 <Thurak> does aptitude update to the latest version of openttd often, or should i manually download it from the website?
13:55:26 <planetmaker> Thurak, probably you want to do the latter
13:56:30 <Thurak> while installing from the download off website, got a message saying aptitude has an older version, yep, think the website was the best option :)
13:57:10 <planetmaker> I'll be surprised if any distribution has already our two-day old release :P
13:58:23 <Thurak> oh that recent then :P
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15:11:56 <Rubidium> planetmaker: Debian unstable has it ;)
15:28:43 <Alberth> oh, hi. Long time no see/talk :)
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15:52:43 <planetmaker> hey fjb :) Thanks
15:53:03 <fjb> Alberth: Didn't have much time, sadly.
15:53:19 <fjb> planetmaker: Didn't reach you yesterday.
15:53:44 <planetmaker> yeah, I left for friends' place for dinner in the afternoon
15:54:06 <planetmaker> though phone *should* have been re-directed
15:54:26 <fjb> If I only had found your phone number...
15:54:54 <planetmaker> yeah, thought so :)
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15:55:45 <planetmaker> check private message
16:04:08 <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r26919 trunk/src/gfxinit.cpp (2014-09-25 16:04:02 UTC)
16:04:10 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6096]: Crash when enabling "Full animation" if multiplayer chat text is on screen.
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17:45:54 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26920 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2014-09-25 17:45:45 UTC)
17:45:55 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:56 <DorpsGek> french - 79 changes by glx
17:45:57 <DorpsGek> spanish - 3 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
17:45:58 <DorpsGek> tamil - 2 changes by vv
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18:48:03 <Wolf01> mmmh, already tried transocean?
18:48:15 * andythenorth has horrible idea
18:48:37 <andythenorth> subtype refits for 25%, 50%, 75%, 100% capacity
18:48:50 <andythenorth> strictly already done in some Squid ships
18:48:55 <andythenorth> but considering it for RVs
18:50:11 <andythenorth> mmm fixed cabeese
18:50:16 <andythenorth> how would you fix them?
18:50:30 <andythenorth> 1 cabeese = 25% load
18:50:35 <andythenorth> 2 cabeese = 50% load...
18:51:08 <Wolf01> do you ever need more than one caboose?
18:52:10 <Wolf01> I would have made all the steam engines which required a caboose dualheaded, engine from one side, caboose from the other
18:52:41 <andythenorth> oh that magic dual engine thing?
18:52:47 <andythenorth> interesting idea
18:52:52 <argoneus> one sided block signals are unpassable from the other side?
18:52:54 <andythenorth> doesn’t work for IH, can’t use dual-headed
18:53:08 <argoneus> I thought only the path signals with the yellow board were blocking from the other side
18:53:22 <Wolf01> yes argoneus, as far as I remember
18:53:30 <argoneus> does this apply to presignals too?
18:53:50 <Wolf01> yes, they are block signals
18:54:07 * andythenorth seriously considers a subtype refit on RVs
18:54:33 <Wolf01> I only use pbs signals and make plain junctions
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18:59:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you always have an opinion, nearly always useful… subtype refits on RVs (but can’t change length of vehicle - forbidden at stations)
19:00:04 <andythenorth> or worth exploring?
19:00:32 <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of subtype?
19:00:50 <Eddi|zuHause> just make sure that the autorefit callback keeps the subtype
19:01:21 <Eddi|zuHause> and that all generations have the same subtypes (for autoreplace)
19:01:24 <andythenorth> what would be the gameplay reason for not just always using biggest capacity?
19:01:34 <andythenorth> is the real question I think
19:01:35 <Wolf01> I never understood those refit gearing, capacity, speed, stuff refits
19:01:39 <frosch123> i never use the biggest capacity in heqs
19:01:51 <frosch123> higher frequent cycles give better rating
19:01:54 <Eddi|zuHause> what would be the gameplay reason for not just having a different model for each capacity?
19:02:12 <andythenorth> effectively same question
19:02:15 <Eddi|zuHause> normally, the "reason" was to avoid combinatorial explosion
19:02:22 <andythenorth> why wouldn’t you just choose the biggest?
19:02:40 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it has weird running costs?
19:02:47 <andythenorth> I refit a couple of ships in Squid, because sometimes you want 200t ship, and sometimes 800t
19:02:54 <andythenorth> but trucks / trams don’t have that range
19:03:04 <andythenorth> you’re going to use 50t every time
19:03:25 <frosch123> 30 or 50 is still factor two, but yes, 30 is way too small
19:03:30 <frosch123> 50 or 100 would be an option :p
19:03:38 <Eddi|zuHause> except when 50t needs special roads
19:04:09 <frosch123> maybe the 50t version cannot overtake :p
19:04:17 <andythenorth> none of them can overtake :P
19:04:38 <andythenorth> you’d still choose 50t
19:04:58 <andythenorth> ok well that’s simple then, thanks :)
19:05:18 <andythenorth> no capacity refits, all RVs have roughly similar capacity range
19:05:39 <andythenorth> there are 3 roadtypes
19:06:07 <peter1138> that is your imagination
19:06:21 <andythenorth> road, tram track, tram track on road
19:08:30 <Wolf01> mmmh, your graphics set is missing a number of sprites... I already have the 0.5.0 and seem that there isn't a newest one
19:09:38 <frosch123> or ignore it and enjoy the awesome map borders :)
19:10:16 <andythenorth> if someone could just make roadtypes while I’m gone
19:10:24 <argoneus> or do I need something better
19:10:26 <andythenorth> that will destroy my set design :P
19:15:02 <Alberth> argoneus: never make a block that can be entered from a path signal and a block signal at the same time
19:16:01 <argoneus> also why would I get crashes?
19:16:06 <argoneus> one of the signals will yield to the other either way, no?
19:16:39 <Alberth> you may want to add a signal on the incoming stream just before the junction at the station
19:16:52 <Alberth> so a train can stop there and wait for a free platform
19:17:31 <argoneus> but then it would wait in an unoptimal place, no?
19:17:39 <argoneus> because another station could free up meanwhile
19:18:25 <Alberth> trains entering a block through a path signal will plan a route through the block. trains entering a block through a block signal do not plan a route. Those two types will collide when they encounter each other
19:18:54 <Alberth> somewhat, it depends on the amount of incoming trains and the duration of stay in the station
19:19:14 <argoneus> this station is both loading and unloading
19:19:21 <argoneus> so it might take a while
19:19:36 <Alberth> an alternative can perhaps be that you make the center the incoming source for all 4 platforms?
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19:19:56 <Alberth> so trains can wait closer to the platform
19:20:08 <argoneus> so I won't have 2 junctions
19:20:10 <argoneus> but one superjunction?
19:20:43 <Alberth> I'd keep 2 exits at both sides so trains don't cross each other too much
19:24:23 <Supercheese> mixed path and block signals? naughty
19:27:13 <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r26921 trunk/src/network/network_content_gui.cpp (2014-09-25 19:27:07 UTC)
19:27:14 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Adjust content window listing to fit icon size.
19:29:46 <argoneus> so there will be only 2 exits from the station?
19:29:57 <argoneus> if I add another two platforms, and need 3 exits
19:30:04 <argoneus> what is a good place for that? in the middle?
19:30:26 <Eddi|zuHause> you only need 2 exits if they merge into one line anyway
19:30:52 <argoneus> and if I eventually double my exits
19:31:04 <argoneus> what is a good place for exits?
19:31:14 <Eddi|zuHause> you do that if you also double the incoming line
19:31:27 <Eddi|zuHause> then you likely also need to double the platforms
19:31:43 <argoneus> but then I can't have just two exits on the sides
19:31:45 <Eddi|zuHause> then it's better if you just put two separate stations like this adjacent to each other
19:31:46 <argoneus> but somewhere in the middle I guess?
19:32:13 <Eddi|zuHause> so you just copy or mirror this layout
19:32:14 <argoneus> or I can make it roro
19:32:18 <argoneus> and have infinite platforms
19:32:20 <Eddi|zuHause> and have no connections inbetween
19:33:19 <Eddi|zuHause> there is only so many trains which can come simultaneously from one line
19:33:57 <Eddi|zuHause> 5 or 6 platforms for that is probably plenty
19:38:41 <Alberth> entries are a bit of a mess, but trains come from a lot of directions
19:39:46 <Alberth> it's 5 platforms so the pattern breaks down a bit :p
19:54:10 <argoneus> if I have a station that leads into two lines
19:54:19 <argoneus> what is the easiest way to tell the train "go into the less populated line" ?
19:54:29 <argoneus> if I have block signals everywhere I can't just do it simply, can I?
19:55:02 <peter1138> use less signals everywhere for a start
19:55:14 <argoneus> I thought distance 2 was standard
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19:55:40 <peter1138> who cares what they use? o_O
19:55:50 <argoneus> they know how to optimize things
19:56:14 <PulkoMandy> hi, I have some problems compiling openttd on Haiku
19:56:34 <PulkoMandy> first you are missing a #include <strings.h> to use strcasecmp (I added this to stdafx.h)
19:56:58 <PulkoMandy> and more annoying, the compiler seems to get stuck in an infinite loop compiling industry_cmd.cpp
19:57:08 <PulkoMandy> and eating a lot of RAM
19:58:02 <PulkoMandy> I get this issue both with 1.3.3 and 1.4.3. But I know I got 1.3.3 to compile in an earlier version of Haiku, which didn't need the strings.h fix
19:58:20 <PulkoMandy> and I noticed there is a generated file also named strings.h which may be a problem
19:59:03 <frosch123> #include <cstring> <- from stdafx.h
19:59:10 <frosch123> maybe your compiler is not standard compliant
19:59:27 <PulkoMandy> strcasecmp is in strings.h, not string.h
19:59:53 <PulkoMandy> it seems not everyone is standard compliant on that. We have found this issue in a lot of projects
20:00:41 <frosch123> hmm, so strcasecmp is not part of the standard at all :p
20:01:19 <PulkoMandy> it's POSIX, but not C99. I don't know which standards you are following
20:02:02 <frosch123> with some sprincles of c++11
20:02:22 <PulkoMandy> ok, so you shouldn't be using strcasecmp then :)
20:02:50 <glx> but it's available almost everywhere
20:03:07 <PulkoMandy> yes, just in the wrong include file
20:04:57 <peter1138> infinite compiler loops are fun
20:05:38 <frosch123> strings.h is an interesting header file
20:05:52 <frosch123> 8 functions, 5 deprecated, 1 not related to strings at all
20:06:09 <frosch123> the 2 usable one are strcasecmp and strncasecmp
20:07:49 <PulkoMandy> I tried copying strcasecmp and strncasecmp dclarations to stdafx.h to make sure it is not an include order problem. it's not, I still get the infinite loop
20:07:57 <PulkoMandy> I guess I should report that to gcc then
20:09:01 <frosch123> if you think it is a problem if the include, you could try removing some from industry_cmd
20:09:15 <frosch123> it will fail compiling, but maybe you can figure out whether the loop is related to the includes
20:09:39 <PulkoMandy> no, apparently it's not
20:10:12 <argoneus> I wish there was an exit signal
20:10:14 <argoneus> that was a pathing signal
20:11:26 <peter1138> just use pathsingals
20:11:35 <argoneus> but you can't chain path signals
20:11:43 <argoneus> like when a train should decide if it should go station A or station B
20:12:14 <PulkoMandy> compiling with -O0 worked. So gcc bug it is
20:12:35 <peter1138> trains should decide that?
20:13:29 <frosch123> according to my header files, these functions are defined in string.h if __USE_BSD is set
20:13:50 <frosch123> why does everything end up at bsd today? :p
20:19:07 <argoneus> so I ended up doing this
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20:20:43 <Sylf> why are those one way pbs there?
20:21:06 <Sylf> block signals work just fin
20:21:07 <Alberth> looks ok, the 2x45 degrees could be removed if you split earlier
20:21:41 <Sylf> You can add 2 one way pbs for those 2 lines coming in, right outside of the platform splits
20:21:45 <argoneus> Alberth: where exactly?
20:21:56 <Sylf> then those 2 long spaces work as waiting spaces
20:21:56 <argoneus> Sylf: but then trains might go to stations that are full, no?
20:22:19 <Sylf> Trains are smarter than that usually
20:22:50 <Eddi|zuHause> [25.09.2014 22:10] <argoneus> I wish there was an exit signal that was a pathing signal <-- in most cases where you'd want that signal, you probably should just remove that signal
20:22:51 <argoneus> but the path calculation only goes upto next signal, no?
20:22:54 <Sylf> occupied platforms give pathfinder some penalties
20:23:30 <Eddi|zuHause> the path calculation goes until the final destination
20:23:57 <Eddi|zuHause> and for the first 10(-ish) signals, also the track and signal state are taken into account
20:24:41 <Eddi|zuHause> and for really masochistic people, all these parameters can be adjusted
20:24:43 <Alberth> just follow the red arrow :p
20:25:17 <Alberth> and you have way too many signals on the way out
20:25:20 <argoneus> Alberth: but then I'd need another bridge, no?
20:25:47 <Alberth> re-use the one going left now :)
20:26:46 <argoneus> I'm confused what you mean :<
20:27:06 <Sylf> Trying to avoid those tight curves
20:27:10 <Alberth> just lay a track along the red arrow instead of the 2x45 degrees turn
20:27:16 <Sylf> assuming you're playing with realistic acceleration
20:27:43 <argoneus> but which one do you mean I should reuse?
20:27:46 <Alberth> it's totally useless to have signals more close than the largest block that you have
20:28:38 <Alberth> which is about 7 tiles
20:28:49 <argoneus> so I want distance 7?
20:29:18 <Alberth> you're having a huge block to enter the station (2 tracks, about 15 tiles)
20:29:33 <Alberth> no way you can ever get more than that out of the station
20:29:48 <Alberth> so an outgoing block size of 2 tiles is just nonsense
20:30:16 <Alberth> in fact, you're limiting the look ahead of trains for no good reason
20:30:19 <Eddi|zuHause> longer signal distance makes a few things easier, like bridges
20:30:37 <Eddi|zuHause> or line priorities
20:31:11 <Eddi|zuHause> and the loss of track capacity is minimal
20:35:22 <argoneus> I revisited my station
20:38:14 <Alberth> on the outgoing lines, you can remove the block signal directly after the junction at the station
20:38:39 <argoneus> but capacity wise, this is ok?
20:38:42 <argoneus> also, this is what you meant?
20:38:48 <argoneus> or you would've done it differently
20:39:20 <Alberth> you're in a path signal block, usually you don't put signals at points where you don't want trains to stop
20:39:44 <Sylf> argoneus, you can get rid of the block signals right outside of the station
20:39:56 <Sylf> the 4 signals that used to be 1way pbs
20:40:10 <Sylf> oh, Alberth already said the same thing
20:40:11 <Alberth> it looks a bit overkill having so many exits
20:40:45 <Alberth> but it depends on how busy it is
20:41:06 <Sylf> the block signal at the very beginning of the entry to the whole area
20:41:16 <Sylf> that might cause problems later on
20:41:57 <peter1138> block signals: if you have to ask, don't use them
20:42:13 <Sylf> :P I use pbs and block signals the other way
20:44:08 <Sylf> by the way, about the 10 signal look ahead for yapf...
20:44:08 <Alberth> yeah, using only pbs makes life a lot easier
20:44:31 <Sylf> if you use pbs, how does it work? does it check if path is occupied?
20:44:40 <Sylf> you can't really check for the signal state, can you?
20:45:31 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26922 trunk/src/stdafx.h (2014-09-25 20:45:25 UTC)
20:45:32 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Include strings.h on HAIKU for strcasecmp. Some platforms do not have a strings.h at all, most define the functions in string.h as well.
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20:46:07 <Alberth> path finder tries to avoid other trains if it can
20:47:18 <Alberth> ie if you make a split to a destination that's equally-ish long, trains will use both paths
20:48:44 <Alberth> like wise, trains will prefer free platforms
20:54:33 <peter1138> Hmm, works I guess :p
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21:15:28 <LordAro> TrueBrain: so, is openttd.org vulnerable to "shellshock"? finding attempts in my own nginx logs was surprising...
21:16:32 <argoneus> should my trains actually go self-service themselves when I autoreplace?
21:17:10 <Supercheese> if not you can Manage List -> Send for Maintenance
21:17:29 <Supercheese> however I find they auto-go quite nicely
21:17:29 <argoneus> it took them a while for some reason
21:17:39 <Supercheese> they even wait for opportune times
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21:20:10 <TrueBrain> LordAro: it shouldnt, as we dont use cgi-bin
21:21:07 <TrueBrain> so many software might be exploitable as they might use bash for some background what-ever
21:21:22 <peter1138> LordAro, that's not attempts, that's just a scanner
21:22:15 <TrueBrain> hard to see if that scanner really found an exploit
21:22:22 <peter1138> no it's very limited
21:22:34 <peter1138> it's clearly something that's very app specific
21:22:49 <LordAro> peter1138: i had more than just that
21:23:06 <TrueBrain> many people are trying
21:23:09 <peter1138> and tbh a web scan is pretty useless anyway
21:23:12 <TrueBrain> but ... logs dont really tell you if it succeeded
21:23:27 <TrueBrain> honestly, this whole "as big as hearthbleed" is just a PR happy person
21:23:56 <peter1138> TrueBrain, i think so too
21:24:09 <TrueBrain> no real exploits have been reported
21:25:59 <peter1138> maybe they considered the stick that openssl got
21:26:10 <peter1138> when it was originally reported "very unlikely" that anything could happen... except it did
21:26:34 <frosch123> not enough dash fanboys?
21:27:11 <peter1138> most scripts on a debian system will be using dash not bash
21:27:40 <peter1138> anyone running bash as a cgi ... yuck
21:28:44 <peter1138> home routers are quite likely too, as firmware makers are ignorant when it comes to security
21:29:25 <frosch123> mine has a memory leak or something, i need to reset it about once a week :)
21:30:40 <TrueBrain> those firmware makers that run httpd as root
21:30:47 <TrueBrain> they should be punished! :P
21:31:06 <peter1138> might be a handy way to root them to put better firmware on it :p
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21:31:51 <frosch123> oh, yeah, a worm that installs a proper os would be something new
21:33:31 <glx> and the default admin/admin accessible from outside ?
21:47:43 <Eddi|zuHause> "a person who wrote 70 letters per day to the city administration was now sentenced to not write more than 2 letters, or face a prison sentence"
21:48:16 <NGC3982> It's a day of celebration
21:48:28 <NGC3982> At least if you are of indian descent and you love space.
21:48:49 <Eddi|zuHause> if you're not indian, the day is probably almost over
21:49:03 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: how many pages can a letter contain?
21:49:11 <NGC3982> It is actually quite fascinating.
21:49:25 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: there is both a weight and a size limit to letters
21:49:37 <NGC3982> The indian MOM project with a successfull probe to orbit Mars costs less than the cost of creating the movie Gravity.
21:50:00 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: or a single air strike in syria
21:50:04 <NGC3982> And at almost a 1:20 of the entire Curiosity project.
21:50:14 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Exactly!
21:51:06 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the international letter i sent to australia was limited to something like A3 * 5cm and 1 kg
21:51:59 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: How can sending letters be subject to prison sentence?
21:52:17 <frosch123> actually L+B+H <= 90cm
21:52:27 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: letters themselves not, but ignoring a court order...
21:53:09 <NGC3982> With good reason, i guess.
21:54:16 <NGC3982> Jesus, you where serious
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21:55:38 <frosch123> NGC3982: just hope that noone figures out that they would be cheaper if they happened more often
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21:58:49 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe this bash vulnerability should be called "shellbleed" :p
21:59:26 <NGC3982> Yeah, what about thata?
21:59:32 <NGC3982> I did not really follow up on it.
22:00:35 <Eddi|zuHause> something about code injection via environment variables
22:01:10 <Eddi|zuHause> and bash is crazily old bad code, that nobody ever reviewed
22:01:29 <NGC3982> I probably run it, and my server is most probably vournerable.
22:01:44 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it's only about as old as cvs
22:02:01 <Eddi|zuHause> that is probably older than me :p
22:02:15 <frosch123> you are not that young
22:02:40 <frosch123> lordaro may have a chance of being younger than bash/cvs
22:03:13 <Eddi|zuHause> how old do you think i am? :p
22:03:43 * NGC3982 is probably young around here.
22:03:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not alberth :p
22:03:48 <LordAro> yup, both are >5 years older than me :p
22:04:03 <LordAro> well, cvs is 4.5 years older than me :3
22:07:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i once learned that you use present perfect "if an action that happened in the past still has effects today"
22:08:42 <NGC3982> So, you is the stupidest toddler ever?
22:09:08 <Eddi|zuHause> that is not present perfect
22:11:04 <frosch123> perfect progressive? you have been borning since 1987?
22:12:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i have my doubts that the infinitive of "born" is "born" :p
22:12:37 <frosch123> maybe it only exists as perfect
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22:13:19 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it's derived from "bear" (as in "carry")
22:14:52 <glx> wiktionary says "past participle of bear; given birth to."
22:16:29 <Eddi|zuHause> at least that makes sense in correlation to german (ge)bor(en) -> (ge)bär(en)
22:16:48 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: actually, it's being called "shellshock"
22:16:58 <LordAro> (i missed the initial part of the conversation)
22:17:18 <frosch123> are you sure you missed something? :p
22:18:51 <LordAro> well, i didn't notice `<Eddi|zuHause> maybe this bash vulnerability should be called "shellbleed" :p` and NGC3982's follow up stuff
22:18:59 <LordAro> i only looked after your highlight
22:19:14 <NGC3982> I was a tad scared that "YEP." was related to my current connection.
22:19:24 <NGC3982> Like the "Are you affected by heartbleed?" site.
22:19:37 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: well, they call many political scandals XXX-gate nowadays
22:20:00 <NGC3982> It's a very faulty use of the suffix
22:20:22 <NGC3982> It's the name of a damn hotel
22:20:53 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: or the name of a place where they happened to build a hotel?
22:21:09 <glx> LordAro: gamergate is total bullshit
22:21:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i only know gamergod88
22:24:21 <NGC3982> "#gamergate" is not even properly used, even if "gate" was a correctly used suffix in the first place.
22:30:03 <Eddi|zuHause> well, and "shellshock" was originally a name for what we today call "PTSD"
22:31:30 <Supercheese> or "ambulatory concussion" :P
22:31:44 <Eddi|zuHause> because people who were injured in WWI were the first larger group of people affected by it
22:33:06 <Eddi|zuHause> it's said that J.R.R. Tolkien had this condition, which led him to creating imagined worlds to process
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continue to next day ⏵
