IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-09-14
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00:02:14 <Eddi|zuHause> the doctor who opening monologue somewhat reminds me of that xkcd comic about saying "i know that you're listening" into an empty room just to freak out a person that might be listening
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06:39:42 <andythenorth> I might have overlooked the ‘proper’ way to vary power by railtype
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06:56:10 <andythenorth> pikka you did EletroMcDiesel in ukrs 2
06:56:23 <andythenorth> why do non-elrl depots report elrl to the vehicle?
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06:56:30 <andythenorth> or have I done a stupid?
06:56:50 <andythenorth> you wait ages, then two turn up at once
06:57:17 <Pikka> why do non-elrl depots report elrl to the vehicle? <- I'm guessing that they don't...
06:57:25 <DanMacK> headed to bed shortly tis 3am here :P
06:57:33 <andythenorth> Pikka: has andythenorth done a stupid?
06:57:42 <Pikka> I don't know, what's the actual problem?
06:58:05 <andythenorth> DanMacK: truck looks good
06:58:13 <andythenorth> will figure out what’s best
06:58:17 <Pikka> and is it exacerbated by the three-part-vehicle system? ;)
06:58:24 <andythenorth> pikka thinks we should only do single-unit trucks
06:58:36 <Pikka> I think I should only do single-unit trucks
06:59:01 <andythenorth> I considered it for the mechanical horse - fake articulated
06:59:08 <andythenorth> DanMacK: I’ll put those in
06:59:11 <andythenorth> trying to finish the horse
06:59:17 <andythenorth> then we can 1.0.0 horses
06:59:29 <DanMacK> mech horse or horse horse?
06:59:32 <andythenorth> iron horse, mech horse
06:59:37 <andythenorth> 1.0.0 for Iron Horse :)
06:59:45 <andythenorth> can I say ‘metro trains’ to you? :)
07:01:04 <Pikka> the class 73 in UKRS2 is coded as a normal rail vehicle, but is made unavailable if a suitable electrified track is not defined
07:01:18 <Pikka> and uses a callback to increase power on the electrified track
07:01:35 <andythenorth> mine does the callback
07:01:59 <Pikka> seemed like the simplest/only way to do it, the vehicle type has to be the least restrictive railtype
07:02:01 <andythenorth> power is 1250, the cb sets it to 5000 if railtype is ELRL
07:02:15 <andythenorth> railtype is RAIL, vehicle type is DIESEL
07:02:24 <andythenorth> but the depot always reports 5000
07:02:30 <andythenorth> depot / buy menu /s
07:03:04 <Pikka> buy menu probably doesn't know the railtype of the depot, then
07:03:32 <andythenorth> well that’s fine
07:03:38 <andythenorth> it just makes me doubt my own code :P
07:05:54 <andythenorth> “He doth nothing but talk of his horse.”
07:06:17 <andythenorth> “RICHARD III. A horse! a horse! my kingdom for a horse! “
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07:09:26 <Pikka> you should just release everything as an RC from now on
07:38:43 <andythenorth> don’t think it’s the 3 part business
07:40:37 <Pikka> for the electro-diesel power?
07:40:58 <Pikka> nah, UKRS is the same way. it shows the full power in the buy menu, even if you're building in a regular rail depot
07:41:05 <Pikka> the built loco in the depot shows the correct power though
07:43:40 <andythenorth> I’ll stop arbitrarily changing code
07:51:52 <andythenorth> I wonder if the power cb runs in buy menu and just takes the highest value
07:52:00 <andythenorth> I’ve tried shuffling the order of results and stuff
07:53:43 <andythenorth> variable power by railtype is a BAD FEATURE
07:53:51 <andythenorth> but there have to be a few bad features per set
07:54:04 <Pikka> it's somewhat realistic
07:54:15 <andythenorth> I just put it in to fuck with people tbh
07:54:36 <Pikka> may as well slow down trains without brakevans too
07:56:26 <andythenorth> maybe a limit of 3 BAD FEATURES per set? o_O
07:57:21 <andythenorth> did we agree cabeese are BAD FEATURE?
07:57:32 <Pikka> cabeese which do stuff are a bad feature
07:57:42 <Pikka> cabeese which just are are fine
07:58:17 <andythenorth> so IH has: Electro-Diesels, combine pax-mail car, and reversing sprites on tank engines
07:58:21 <andythenorth> enough BAD FEATURES
07:58:44 <andythenorth> Squid has: ships go faster unloaded, refittable capacities on some ships, hoverzellepins
07:59:00 <Pikka> hoverzeppelins are a good feature though
07:59:23 <andythenorth> no light without darkness
07:59:45 <andythenorth> road hog has: articulated vehicles, trams
07:59:53 <andythenorth> that means I can add another :O
08:05:13 <andythenorth> BAD FEATURE: no buy menu text
08:20:49 * andythenorth considers calling this roster ‘Richard the Third'
08:28:09 <andythenorth> Pikka bob, can haz question?
08:28:37 <Wolf01> now I remember why I decided to not play "mountanious", it's because I need to finish the stations on slopes patch
08:28:59 <andythenorth> at least for RVs
08:29:08 <andythenorth> train stations on slopes is not a needed thing
08:29:25 <Wolf01> buffer stops on slopes might be cool
08:29:28 <andythenorth> but a town on a hill is hard to put RVs into
08:29:36 <andythenorth> I patched buffer stops on slopes once
08:29:44 <andythenorth> there is an interesting side effect
08:29:45 <Wolf01> yes, I have a lot of towns on hills
08:30:25 <planetmaker> indeed, more a problem for road than rail
08:30:51 <andythenorth> hmm, I wonder if that train routing issue affects non-track tiles?
08:30:51 <Wolf01> the RV part is finished
08:31:06 <Wolf01> it just needed grf support
08:31:55 <planetmaker> hm, so sprites missing but otherwise done?
08:32:14 <Wolf01> yes, but its really old
08:32:57 <Wolf01> as far I remember the problem with buffer stops occurred only if you removed the grf from the game after you built them
08:33:24 <andythenorth> this is the ‘trains jumping 1 height level’ issue?
08:34:10 <Wolf01> that's because I wanted to limit the rail stations only to be built horizontally on slopes
08:34:26 <Wolf01> but the game thinks they are a sloped track
08:35:04 <Wolf01> hence the limit to buffer stops/ non track tiles
08:35:05 <planetmaker> horizontally I can already build stations. What do you mean / add in that case?
08:35:26 <Wolf01> on tiles with one corner raised or perpendicular to the slope
08:36:21 <andythenorth> if you got really interested, you could fix docks too… :)
08:36:32 <planetmaker> that's different :P
08:37:37 <andythenorth> that screenie needs docks on corner slopes :)
08:38:06 <andythenorth> I am -1 to sloped train stations, I think it’s a step too far :)
08:39:15 <andythenorth> the RV stops basically look fine as is
08:39:20 <Wolf01> FooBar made a grf for sloped road stops
08:39:23 <andythenorth> do they need grf support really?
08:39:39 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes, the base sets need sprites for them
08:40:15 <planetmaker> though they probably could be composed of existing sprites + new offsets as it looks
08:43:22 <planetmaker> it would really add to RV what I had been wishing for time and again when I build a city transport system
08:43:50 <andythenorth> we have drive-in stops on steep slopes for ages, but drive-ins are not so good
08:43:54 <andythenorth> and can’t be used for trams
08:44:14 <andythenorth> trams are a bit of a PITA currently, mostly because of slopes
08:44:33 <planetmaker> yes, also bus stops on an uphill road are perfectly valid
08:50:49 <Pikka> I suppose we can't say 'can you tell what it is yet?' any more...
08:52:26 <andythenorth> nor ‘now then, now then'
08:55:34 <Wolf01> hmmm, oil wells on the top of mountains
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09:34:48 <Wolf01> nice choo-choo ai... it connected 2 20-tiles away cities with a loop through 2 mountains which are 100+ tiles away
09:35:58 <Alberth> tourists like good views :)
09:36:07 <Wolf01> and now I only hope it knows what it's doing, those track-planning tracks doesn't seem suitable to run anything
09:36:57 <Wolf01> removed one station and one track, still thinking around a junction
09:37:34 <Wolf01> it would be cool if an ai plans the route and then convert it
09:38:58 <Wolf01> meanwhile my highly profitable copper route with panoramic view works like a charm
09:53:13 <Alberth> nicely right-aligned :p
09:53:26 <Alberth> what do you expect from maniacs :p
09:54:37 <planetmaker> The funky thing there is the alignment jump below the cursor :)
09:54:53 <planetmaker> or below the tooltip rather. That's the crucial thing to mess it up
10:18:31 <Alberth> all bad features gone?
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10:28:09 <andythenorth> Alberth: no, extended support for them
10:28:23 <andythenorth> reversing-tank-engines BAD FEATURE now has smoke in the right place
10:28:34 <andythenorth> random-wagon-colours BAD FEATURE now works for hopper wagons
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10:28:51 <andythenorth> power-by-railtype BAD FEATURE refactored to be extensible in future
10:29:04 <Alberth> train drivers will be happy to stop smoking
10:29:45 <Alberth> and less boring wagons never hurts either, imho
11:19:08 <b_jonas> is it possible to somehow find out what area a town building covers, that is, which squares would be destroyed together if I used the bomb tool?
11:19:52 <b_jonas> like, maybe if I hover the land area or bomb tool on them, it should highlight all its squares
11:21:11 <andythenorth> sometimes I wonder about stack overflow
11:21:17 <andythenorth> compated to reading docs
11:22:02 <andythenorth> to find the max value in a dict, one of the preferred SO answers is: max(foo.iterkeys(), key=(lamda key: foo[key]))
11:22:21 <andythenorth> whereas reading the docs, you’d conclude: max(foo.values())
11:22:53 <andythenorth> is it just to distinguish some kind of leet skills between people who don’t understand lambda (andythenorth), and everyone else?
11:23:33 <andythenorth> oh he wants the key as well, /me misread that
11:26:09 <andythenorth> leet reading skills :P
11:27:40 <Alberth> it's still a linear search
11:30:46 <andythenorth> max(foo.items())[0]
11:30:50 <andythenorth> would be how I’d do it
11:31:04 <andythenorth> also unreliable for keys with same value
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11:33:16 <Alberth> luckily keys are unique
11:34:02 <Alberth> oh 'value' is intended differently :)
11:35:35 <Alberth> for a one-time action, sure. If you want it more often, a sorted set of values would be better
11:39:47 <andythenorth> Alberth: also you left yesterday before I could answer your question
11:40:09 <planetmaker> andythenorth, can I haz 32bpp FISH and FIRS, pretty please? :D
11:40:19 <andythenorth> planetmaker: can you draw them?
11:40:38 <andythenorth> then I considered again
11:41:00 <planetmaker> draw new stuff in 32bpp 4x :P
11:41:08 <planetmaker> do it slowly, thus
11:41:18 <andythenorth> Dan had some test sprites
11:41:34 <andythenorth> might happen in a parallel universe
11:41:46 <planetmaker> just playing on coop stable server with fish+firs+pineapple trains
11:41:59 <planetmaker> parallel universe?
11:42:09 <andythenorth> many-worlds scenario
11:42:17 <andythenorth> all things happen - in some universe
11:42:32 <andythenorth> pikka will give you ships
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11:43:38 <Alberth> andythenorth: I think you should report it, it deserves a newgrf guru to have a look at it, I think
11:45:17 <andythenorth> 2bpp would save wear and tear
11:45:26 <b_jonas> pineapple boats (in toyland)
11:53:34 <planetmaker> loool. Cargodist at its best: two players compeeting for fish in the same sea area, serving the same fishing ground
11:53:57 <planetmaker> result: that one fishing ground serves as hub to route the fish from one company to the other company's fishing harbour :)
11:54:28 <planetmaker> I've already waiting 1000t at my harbour to be routed back via that fishing ground to the other company to be picked up to be brought to their fishing ground :)
11:58:27 <b_jonas> is there a newgrf that makes steel mills accept coal, just like in locomotion?
11:58:54 <Pikka> my old TaI does, but it's pretty outdated and does a lot of other stuff too. :)
11:59:23 <peter1138> planetmaker, could be fixed to prevent using common stations being used like that?
11:59:50 <planetmaker> peter1138, could. But I wonder whether it should be fixed :)
12:00:47 <planetmaker> though with cargodist it's more difficult: without it it required a concious effort to share via neutral stations. Now it just happens
12:01:20 <peter1138> who gets the income?
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12:02:41 <Alberth> b_jonas: FIRS steel mill in basic temperate climate accepts coal
12:02:41 <andythenorth> FIRS steel mill accepts coal
12:03:24 <Alberth> thanks andy, let's see whether it can be fixed
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12:11:48 <planetmaker> andythenorth, but I really like how fishing grounds cluster. It's good gameplay [TM]
12:13:00 <Rubidium> peter1138: probably the one with the largest amount of accepting stations nearby gets the biggest share
12:33:44 <b_jonas> openttd is a great game
12:40:57 <b_jonas> hmm, I should upgrade this to monorail
12:46:10 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I find building ships for fishing grounds to be a bit yah-shaving :P
12:46:15 <andythenorth> but yes, they look nice :P
12:46:43 <planetmaker> hm, what does 'yaw-shaving' mean?
12:47:17 <planetmaker> ok, same question :P But yaks stink ;)
12:48:23 <planetmaker> well, I'd not put it that way. It's actually an excellent game starter when playing FIRS
12:48:33 <andythenorth> it’s nice in MP, when one of you sorts them out ;)
12:48:36 <planetmaker> and yes, I play this game at least 50% for the looks
12:48:45 <andythenorth> and there’s no faff around supplies or production increase either :)
12:48:48 <planetmaker> oh, I play alone in my company
12:49:01 <planetmaker> but I only ship fish and food :P
12:49:29 <andythenorth> I want a helper AI in my single-player game
12:49:47 <andythenorth> you give it an annual budget
12:49:53 <planetmaker> I kinda fill that gap in this game :P
12:50:06 <planetmaker> but squid ships are nice to watch, too :)
12:50:13 <planetmaker> as are pineapple trains
12:54:26 <planetmaker> also... it's Dutch townnames. So fishing *must* play a role here :)
12:57:34 <b_jonas> the only monorail I have yet is this Yarmancouk Express which doesn't accept wagons and can't carry valuables
12:57:43 <b_jonas> back to electric then
12:58:20 <Wolf01> I'm enjoing so much this mountainous game that I would like more and more height levels, these mountains are too small, not enough challenge :D
12:58:33 <andythenorth> I used to think more height levels would be good
12:59:55 <andythenorth> b_jonas: monorail is dumb
13:00:11 <George> but NMLC says nmlc ERROR: "xussr.nml", line 34804: The maximum sum of all random_switch probabilities is 128, encountered 194.
13:00:18 <b_jonas> andythenorth: ok, but it will take decades until I get vac trains,
13:00:28 <b_jonas> I want to service these towns in the time till that
13:03:12 <George> wiki says Vehicles SELF 8
13:03:28 <George> (Feature Type # of random bits)
13:03:51 <George> but 194 (<256) does not work
13:06:13 <peter1138> why do i get the "you lost money" sound when i didn't?
13:07:43 <peter1138> it just means i earned less than last year
13:07:57 <andythenorth> also - related, Road Hog vehicles have mental sound effects
13:08:13 <andythenorth> I haven’t defined any yet, and the defaults are laughing crowds etc, which I assume are toyland
13:10:12 <b_jonas> is it normal if my station labels show the train icon even if I only have train station tiles without rails on them?
13:17:09 <George> planetmaker: are you here?
13:17:34 <George> Can you help with my question about random switch?
13:44:32 <andythenorth> they should only be allowed on dirt roads
13:44:42 <planetmaker> it's surely dirty food ;)
13:45:19 <planetmaker> George, there's probably not more random bits
13:46:35 <planetmaker> andythenorth, funnily enough the crawlers offer the best cargo / cost rating, especially given the short distance
13:46:36 <George> I've split it into 2 random switches 128 varianths each and random selection frome these 2
13:46:45 <planetmaker> the trucks I have are only 12 or 17t. The crawlers are 36
13:48:08 <Alberth> as usual with newgrf, it's full of weird exceptions and special cases
13:50:36 <frosch123> George: maybe you start counting at 1 when you should start counting at 0
13:50:50 <frosch123> if you start at bit 1, there are only 7 left
13:51:00 <frosch123> you need to start at bit 0 to have all 8
13:51:23 <Alberth> frosch123: if min(1 << bits_available, 0x80) < nrand: <-- nml check
13:51:46 <George> I've not started it, because it is NML, not NFO
13:52:10 <George> As I wrote, I've splited it into parts and started working
13:52:11 <frosch123> ah, "nrand" is a byte :p
13:52:18 <frosch123> so, yeah grf limitation :p
13:53:19 <Alberth> George: then please accept limits set by NML
13:54:07 <Alberth> frosch123: a byte is 7 bits in newgrf?
13:54:14 <George> I'd suggest to remove them from NML, because NFO does not have this limit ;)
13:54:43 <frosch123> "nrand" specifies the number of cases, must be a power of 2, and is a byte
13:54:57 <frosch123> the byte limits it to 255, the power of two then limits it to 128
13:55:08 <frosch123> it's a newgrf limitation, nothing nml or nfo can do about
13:55:08 <Alberth> ah, and 256 doesn't fit :D
13:55:41 <George> In NFO I have no problem specifing 256 cases (0-255)
13:56:11 <frosch123> 256 is more than 255
13:56:45 <frosch123> anyway, you can solve the issue by not using the silly randomswitch thingie, but use var "random_bits" directly
13:57:20 <frosch123> random actions are old junk, which noone should use, unless you have to for rerandomisation
13:57:37 <frosch123> so, just use a normal switch with "random_bits" variable, and you have no silly grf limitations
13:58:21 <George> and where should I specify random triggers (bitmask(TRIGGER_VEHICLE_NEW_LOAD))?
13:59:13 <frosch123> then you have no luck :)
13:59:21 <frosch123> wait for grf v9 or something :p
13:59:34 <frosch123> maybe we can then get rid fo random actions
14:01:27 <andythenorth> can grf v9 get rid of auto-refit cb? :P
14:02:29 <frosch123> it has a built-in block of grfids, which start with 4341
14:02:45 <frosch123> that should solve all IH issues
14:05:08 * andythenorth didn’t know that random switch is silly :)
14:05:18 <andythenorth> when I found it, I was surprised how useful it is
14:05:29 <andythenorth> no more explicit reading random bits
14:05:34 <frosch123> it is as silly as the powered-wagon and wagon-override thing :)
14:06:01 <andythenorth> I spent some time last night trying to figure out if powered-wagon was the right way to do power changing by railtype
14:06:06 <andythenorth> the answer is ‘definitely not'
14:06:35 <frosch123> i thought pikka would have told you that
14:06:51 <andythenorth> these odd bits of spec are misleading sometimes
14:07:05 <andythenorth> they make it look like there’s a ‘correct’ way to do some tasks
14:07:26 <Alberth> the specs never explain how to use stuff they provide :(
14:07:33 <George> > wagon-override thing - we use it. What should be used instead?
14:07:41 <andythenorth> it’s better when they provide vars, cbs, props
14:08:07 <Alberth> +5 on the no magic :)
14:08:18 <andythenorth> I’ll do my own magic in the compile step
14:09:21 <Alberth> import random; wagon.lifetime = random.random()*15
14:09:47 <andythenorth> powered wagons are silly
14:09:56 <andythenorth> I don’t mean BAD FEATURE, I mean silly
14:10:04 <Alberth> they're called engines, aren't they?
14:10:13 <andythenorth> want more power? Add engines
14:10:31 <frosch123> George: you can directly use "grfid" and "vehicle_type_id" of the front engine. without the hardly-documented side-effects of wagon-override wrt. speed limits, powered wagons, and other things i do not recall
14:10:32 <Alberth> as a bonus you get better smoke
14:11:39 <andythenorth> also as a bonus, don’t change vehicle properties depending on what consist they’re attached to
14:13:14 <andythenorth> I’ve never used livery over-ride, is that stupid too?
14:14:07 <Alberth> good feature not trying to use every corner of a spec
14:14:19 <planetmaker> andythenorth, good feature :)
14:14:40 <frosch123> andythenorth: if you want powered wagons, iirc you have to use wagon overrides :p
14:15:18 <planetmaker> not really. you could make it an engine callback and check for a user_bit of the wagons which indicates 'power'
14:15:21 <planetmaker> and count those wagons
14:15:57 <frosch123> planetmaker: i meant "powered wagons" in the specs sense
14:16:14 <planetmaker> well, important is the gameplay effect. which would iirc be 100% identical?
14:17:02 <frosch123> that has the precondition that you would have to know what powered-wagons does in addition to what one would expect :p
14:25:37 <andythenorth> wtf are ‘user bits’
14:25:42 <andythenorth> I see them, but never see the point
14:26:10 <frosch123> they are a BAD FEATURE :p
14:26:22 <frosch123> i am sure about it :)
14:26:51 <andythenorth> they’re like fake persistent storage?
14:27:06 <andythenorth> but in a non-standard way, and ONLY TRAINS MAY HAVE IT
14:27:11 <planetmaker> andythenorth, kinda, yes
14:27:13 <andythenorth> BECAUSE TRAINS ARE MORE EQUAL
14:27:34 <frosch123> andythenorth: i have a story
14:27:37 <planetmaker> not sure there's a CB to change them, though
14:27:54 <frosch123> somewhen someone thought: all ttd game mechanics are wrong
14:28:17 <frosch123> let's design how it should be done, and then implement the perfect solution which does exactly what we want
14:28:38 <frosch123> everyone can write simple add-ons which just use this simple perfec solution
14:29:08 <frosch123> unfortunately the next person that came around had a differen opinion on what is the perfect solution
14:29:20 <andythenorth> and then we all stopped smoking crack?
14:29:30 <frosch123> so, in the end an universal solution was created, which allowed everyone to do what they want
14:29:47 <frosch123> but the old "perfect" solution - which noone wanted anymore - will stick around for eternity
14:29:51 <frosch123> and confuse new people
14:30:13 <frosch123> or trap them into an easy solution, from where they cannot escape if they want to differ even in the slightest
14:30:37 <andythenorth> but it’s nice if you fear callbacks
14:31:00 <andythenorth> and only want to do something for trains 13 years ago
14:37:53 <andythenorth> also where is Eddi|zuHause when he is needed? o_O
14:38:11 <andythenorth> I have to handle % load states myself in the graphics chain
14:38:11 <Eddi|zuHause> not following the discussion...
14:38:21 <andythenorth> what thresholds should I use?
14:38:29 <andythenorth> I have 3 loading / loaded sprite rows
14:38:46 <andythenorth> first one is empty or near-empty, last one is 100% loaded
14:38:55 <andythenorth> middle one is ‘whatever we can be bothered to draw'
14:40:00 <frosch123> isn't that what the player would be interested in?
14:40:10 <andythenorth> I think it might be yes
14:40:36 <andythenorth> none / some / all
14:43:24 <b_jonas> yay, I'm levelling a whole valley for a new railway route
14:43:33 <andythenorth> I am going to do cargo states for Squid as well, have been avoiding it because….drawing
14:43:53 <andythenorth> if I do non / some / all, and ‘all’ is covered up, it’s only one row per cargo to draw
14:43:53 <planetmaker> btw, it's squid on stable server, andythenorth ;)
14:44:03 <andythenorth> squid needs edibles tankers
14:44:06 <andythenorth> I should do them
14:44:16 <frosch123> andythenorth: there is moving/loading
14:44:24 <frosch123> so, covered would be "moving"
14:44:29 <andythenorth> so would 100% loaded
14:44:38 <andythenorth> I have spriterows for that already, I just never draw the cargo
14:44:41 <frosch123> but V says that you should always see the loading stage
14:46:00 <andythenorth> 3rd-6th rows are current loading states
14:46:18 <andythenorth> in Squid, even if it’s partial load, you get same sprite when moving as 100% load
14:46:22 <andythenorth> due to hatch covers
14:47:18 <andythenorth> maybe I should leave the covers off, to show the load? o_O
14:47:31 <andythenorth> is it about realisms, or gameplay value of knowing what a ship is carrying?
14:49:43 <planetmaker> it's strange. I really like my shipping network :)
14:49:51 <planetmaker> Trains only connect the oceans with eachother :)
14:50:24 <frosch123> "trains are only for connection oceans" would be a nice quote :)
14:50:51 <planetmaker> :) /me signs that quote :P
14:51:17 <frosch123> andythenorth: does fish already have a subtitle?
14:51:23 <planetmaker> nah, canal accross the mountain looks pretty strange. Too rough landscape for canals
14:51:46 <b_jonas> only because we don't have water tunnels yet
14:52:02 <planetmaker> andythenorth, doesn't firs tell me when production is increased? Or is my production simply not increased when it doesn't say?
14:52:11 <b_jonas> they would be useful, and easier to use than rail or road tunnels becuause waterways don't need signals and don't get traffic jams
14:52:30 <frosch123> planetmaker: last time i played it said "gung ho" and such
14:52:41 <frosch123> but not all industries can increase production
14:52:53 <frosch123> industries without supplies always stay the same
14:53:01 <planetmaker> yeah, I recall that. wonder about fishing harbour. It says production would step up, if...
14:53:11 <andythenorth> yes they don’t tell you
14:53:15 <planetmaker> and I recon I fulfill that sometimes at least. Yet I didn't get a message.
14:53:18 <andythenorth> I considered doing it, but never got around to it
14:53:28 <andythenorth> there was some reason it was a PITA
14:53:48 <andythenorth> I suppose I can’t remove all industry window text btw?
14:54:03 <planetmaker> the waiting cargo also tells me that it's suddenly productive though :)
14:54:11 <planetmaker> an indicator on production level would be very nice, yes
14:54:26 <andythenorth> I often think so
14:54:39 <andythenorth> but I wish I could remove buy menu text altogether
14:54:44 <andythenorth> then partial compiles would work
14:55:00 <andythenorth> industry text / buy menu text :o
15:05:41 <andythenorth> which vehicle holds the cargo?
15:05:51 * andythenorth bamboozled by own code
15:08:43 <b_jonas> the cargo is in the break wagon
15:09:02 <andythenorth> I should put it all on the engine
15:09:15 <andythenorth> have it count the number of wagons, and take their capacities
15:11:40 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26819 /trunk/src/saveload (afterload.cpp order_sl.cpp) (2014-09-14 15:11:33 UTC)
15:11:41 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6112] (r26787): trying to delete just loaded objects that had not yet resolved their references caused a crash upon savegame load (only when loading a game from a server, e.g. joining MP)
15:14:11 <planetmaker> oh, crawlers don't station refit, andythenorth ? :(
15:14:20 <andythenorth> not much in HEQS does
15:14:41 <peter1138> An ISR update? How rare
15:14:55 <peter1138> NewGRFs are a lot easier when you don't bother using any
15:14:58 <planetmaker> puts a damper on my distribution of manu supplies
15:16:11 <andythenorth> I need to get the % loaded
15:16:22 <andythenorth> either on current vehicle or neighbouring vehicle
15:16:30 <andythenorth> I can’t even see which var that is
15:17:53 <andythenorth> might 0xBC according to nml src, never seen that before :O
15:19:02 <andythenorth> so I’ll need something like [STORE_TEMP(${offset}, 0x10F), var[0x61, 0, 0x0000FFFF, 0xBC]]
15:23:09 <planetmaker> hm, now I need consist replacement :)
15:23:21 <andythenorth> consist replacement = GOOD FEATURE
15:23:24 <andythenorth> less yak-shaving
15:23:45 <andythenorth> also, maybe I can find an 80+ var :P
15:24:15 <andythenorth> 3C W Current cargo load
15:24:47 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26820 /branches/1.4 (4 files in 3 dirs) (2014-09-14 15:24:39 UTC)
15:24:48 <DorpsGek> [1.4] -Backport from trunk:
15:24:49 <DorpsGek> - Fix: Crashes on joining a server with pending order backups [FS#6112] (r26819)
15:24:50 <DorpsGek> - Fix: Crashes on start due to dereferencing the -1 index of the file names array of music files (r26809)
15:24:58 * andythenorth thinks the 80+ vars offer all kinds of BAD FEATURE options
15:25:05 <andythenorth> colour vehicles red if negative profit...
15:25:30 <andythenorth> use smaller sprites as value reduces...
15:28:05 <andythenorth> do I add 80 to 80+ vars? I can never remember
15:30:55 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26821 /trunk/src/lang (45 files in 2 dirs) (2014-09-14 15:30:47 UTC)
15:30:56 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
15:30:57 <DorpsGek> greek - 95 changes by Jubilee
15:30:58 <DorpsGek> gaelic - 33 changes by GunChleoc
15:33:58 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26822 /branches/1.4/src/lang (62 files in 2 dirs) (2014-09-14 15:33:52 UTC)
15:33:59 <DorpsGek> [1.4] -Backport from trunk: language updates
15:36:28 <MNIM> Question. I'm trying to get the canadian stations grf, but it seems to be impossible to find. our favourite fruitstore won't list them ingame, but the site lists them - but no download
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15:39:26 <planetmaker> yeah... you probably use the wrong version of OpenTTD. Authors only allow some versions. Dunno which
15:39:59 <planetmaker> bother them to simply set a minimum version and not set a maximum version like they do
15:40:19 <MNIM> trouble is, the site doesn't have a download.
15:41:02 <planetmaker> bother the authors, they want it that way. We can't change anything.
15:41:16 <Pikka> downloading it from the bananas site works for me
15:41:41 <andythenorth> or register on simuscape
15:41:42 <MNIM> my apologies. it seems i am a silly person.
15:42:17 <MNIM> It did not occur to me to click the download count links instead of the grf name
15:43:36 <andythenorth> bananas web UI could be better
15:43:41 <andythenorth> I keep thinking I’ll help fix it
15:44:15 <planetmaker> the web UI is not meant to be a download location really
15:45:04 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26823 /branches/1.4/src/lang (5 files) (2014-09-14 15:44:57 UTC)
15:45:05 <DorpsGek> [1.4] -Fix (r26822): a few string changes too many were backported
15:46:38 <MNIM> I managed to load it, but it gets disabled due to incompatible active graphic file(s).
15:49:30 <andythenorth> there are valid reasons for it
15:49:37 <planetmaker> you supposedly try to play it an invalid way :P
15:49:37 <MNIM> I say, it's decidedly uncanadian!
15:49:44 <MNIM> didn't even say 'sorry' once!
15:50:22 <planetmaker> yeah, author is German. They're know to not say sorry or please ;)
15:50:55 <frosch123> planetmaker: german-canadian?
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15:51:04 <frosch123> i don't think it counts as "german"
15:51:26 <frosch123> though it's funny to read :)
15:51:53 <MNIM> you done missed an 'n' i think.
15:52:24 <MNIM> hmmmh. now i managed to load it, but the graphics are all corrupted. not the palette, either.
15:52:26 <andythenorth> OzTrans is german?
15:52:29 <andythenorth> I didn’t know that
15:52:54 <peter1138> what, guessing due to arrogance?
15:52:59 <frosch123> andythenorth: he made some posts on the german forum
15:53:22 <planetmaker> yep, another famours trait
15:53:24 <frosch123> he writes german as it was spoken 150 years ago
15:53:54 <frosch123> so, he is likely from a proud little community somewhere in canada, who praises their german roots or something
15:54:44 <frosch123> (if i am mistaken, and he is in fact german, it only makes it funnier, btw)
15:54:59 <MNIM> don't y'all write like it was spoken 100 years ago, anyway?
15:55:27 <glx> oh like french canadian using old french language :)
15:56:35 <MNIM> Bah. i had to resort to the 0.3d version before it works.
15:56:52 <MNIM> Oh well. it seems there's not much new in the 1.6 version, anyway
16:00:05 <Eddi|zuHause> <MNIM> don't y'all write like it was spoken 100 years ago, anyway? <- no, there were two major spellling reforms in the beginning and end of the 20th century
16:01:15 <andythenorth> how to calculate % loaded reliably in nml?
16:01:52 <andythenorth> I am getting current loaded amount from [STORE_TEMP(${offset}, 0x10F), var[0x61, 0, 0x000000FF, 0xBC]]
16:03:52 <Eddi|zuHause> is the formula i use
16:04:04 <andythenorth> so I just substitute that in the expression above?
16:04:19 <Eddi|zuHause> self.value = "cargo_count*100/cargo_capacity"
16:04:21 <andythenorth> should I just go read CETS :P
16:04:21 <Eddi|zuHause> slice_var = "[STORE_TEMP(%d, 0x10F), var[0x61, 0, 0x0000FFFF, %s]*100/var[0x61, 0, 0x0000FFFF, %s]]"%(veh_slice, "0xBC", "0xBA")
16:05:55 <Eddi|zuHause> in scripts/tree.py if you're interested
16:06:16 <peter1138> this good_year/bad_year thing is broken, right?
16:06:52 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i never quite knew what it was actually measuring. i think it was performance rating
16:07:08 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26824 /branches/1.4 (5 files in 3 dirs) (2014-09-14 16:07:01 UTC)
16:07:09 <DorpsGek> [1.4] -Update documentation
16:08:08 <peter1138> old_economy[0] compared to old_economy[4]
16:08:43 <Eddi|zuHause> that seems silly
16:08:49 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26825 /tags/1.4.3-RC2 (3 files in 3 dirs) (2014-09-14 16:08:44 UTC)
16:11:24 <peter1138> nah, makes sense. i alway thought it was something to do with income that's all
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16:47:07 <MNIM> Eddi|zuHause: only two? lol - the dutch have those once every five years. :P
16:47:24 <MNIM> (usually to undo the damage of the last one) XD
16:48:23 <b_jonas> we haven't had a major spelling reform for ages
16:48:30 <b_jonas> we don't need one either, mind you
16:48:32 <frosch123> i think the one at the end of the century came in two revisions
16:48:52 <b_jonas> (of course some people always come up with crazy proposals)
16:49:33 <Rubidium> given MNIM's interpretation of 'five years', I doubt I'll make thirty
16:50:35 <frosch123> b_jonas: is your spelling based on a bible translation by some guy from 500 years ago?
16:51:27 <Rubidium> MNIM: spelling 'reforms' in the Netherlands: 1883, 1947, 1996, 2006 (every 5 years equates to, on average, once every 40 years in the real world)
16:52:14 <frosch123> is there a relation between dutch spelling reforms and c++ standards?
16:52:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think there was a c++ standard in 1883
16:52:39 <Rubidium> though... to be fair, in 1994 they decided to revise the spelling every 10 years
16:53:01 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the 98 one is even the first one :p
16:53:09 <MNIM> Rubidium: every five years there's a new 'groene boekje' - it's not my interpretation of 'five years', rather my interpretation of 'major' :P
16:53:46 <b_jonas> frosch123: no, I don't think so
16:54:11 <frosch123> b_jonas: maybe that's the reason you do not need a reform?
16:54:45 <b_jonas> admittedly, the rulebook was rewritten like a decade ago, for the worse, so I still prefer the edition just before that,
16:54:49 * Rubidium has found a new word for the spelling test: ideeëloos
16:55:01 <b_jonas> but that's just about the presentation of the rules, not about their content
16:55:03 <Eddi|zuHause> the council responsible for the german spelling reform consists of equal amount of representatives from germany, switzerland and austria, and minority representatives from belgium, luxemburg and south tirol (italy)
16:55:12 <b_jonas> the spelling itself is almost the same, with only minor differences
16:55:14 <Alberth> Rubidium: nice one :)
16:56:30 <b_jonas> Rubidium: is that like Shifffarht?
16:57:22 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: what a horrible misspelling :p
16:57:35 <Rubidium> b_jonas: no, there's a general rule that there should be a 'n' between two words that are concatenated, with some exceptions
16:58:18 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's "ideenlos" in german (if my assumption of meaning is correct)
16:58:29 <Rubidium> for example "ideeënbus" (idea box)
16:59:24 <Rubidium> but apparantly this case the n is not added to be more consistent with "besluiteloos" (not being able to make a decision), ideeëloos = not having any ideas
16:59:30 <Eddi|zuHause> but i'd say that the n there is from plural
17:00:14 <Rubidium> but it's "pannenkoek" (pan cake), but I doubt you make it in multiple pans
17:00:16 <b_jonas> this is _so_ much easier in French, for it almost never juxtaposes words without a space
17:00:24 <frosch123> @topic set 1 1.4.2, 1.4.3-RC2
17:00:24 *** DorpsGek changes topic to "1.4.2, 1.4.3-RC2 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | #openttd.dev for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices"
17:00:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think there's a general rule how to concatenate words. you randomly insert an 's' some of the time
17:00:33 <Rubidium> whereas it's "koninginnedag" (queens day), even though Belgium has like 3 queens
17:01:35 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the german word "Pfannkuchen" doesn't actually mean a pan cake
17:01:47 <Eddi|zuHause> (depending on region)
17:02:20 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: is that singular?
17:02:26 <Rubidium> or is there no singular?
17:02:32 <Eddi|zuHause> it also exists in the form "Pfannekuchen"
17:02:39 <Eddi|zuHause> although that is much rarer
17:03:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: difficult to tell, because "Pfann" is missing the ending completely. singular is "Pfanne" and plural is "Pfannen"
17:04:04 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I was kinda asking for the kuchen part
17:04:28 <Eddi|zuHause> that is one of those (fairly common) words that have the same form in singular and plural
17:04:56 <planetmaker> I'd not call that common. But yeah :)
17:05:02 <Eddi|zuHause> almost all words whose singular ends in -en don't change form in plural
17:05:09 <Eddi|zuHause> some of them add an umlaut
17:05:44 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: not quite :p
17:05:52 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: kühchen?
17:06:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't want to know what happens inside your brain :p
17:07:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean like the plural of "Wagen" is "Wagen", only rarely (old-fashioned) you might find "Wägen"
17:08:36 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: adding an -er ending sounds swedish :p
17:08:36 <frosch123> luckily there is no rule to duplicate vocals for pluaral
17:08:46 <frosch123> then it would be "waagen"
17:09:09 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but "Waagen" is already the plural of "Waage"
17:10:07 <frosch123> but, ok, the latin-ish way would likely duplicate the "e", so: wageen
17:10:28 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: when you can think of several examples out of the top of your head, you can call it "common"
17:10:55 <frosch123> all except finitely many?
17:11:11 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that only works for infinite sets :p
17:11:38 <frosch123> yeah, but it's funnier with finite sets
17:11:57 <Eddi|zuHause> whereas the number of words that have ever been used may be unbounded, but certainly finite
17:12:44 <frosch123> the amount of non-sense people can talk is infinite
17:13:01 <frosch123> so, the amount of sproken stuff must be infinite as well
17:13:08 <Eddi|zuHause> but the amount of nonsense people can talk is not the basis of dictionaries
17:13:32 <Eddi|zuHause> dictionaries are based on what was actually spoken at some point
17:14:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and only finitely many people had a finite amount of time to utter non-zero length phrases, or write them down
17:15:20 <Eddi|zuHause> the potential compound words in german are infinite, but almost none of them were ever used
17:18:18 <b_jonas> so the German speakers are wasting almost all the potential of their language?
17:18:55 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
17:19:09 <Eddi|zuHause> as is the potential of numbers...
17:19:36 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I guess it can, relatively easily, be proven that 0% of the potential compound words is written down
17:19:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that is what i said
17:20:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: any finite subset of an infinite set is 0% :)
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17:50:02 <andythenorth> where is map array?
17:50:16 <andythenorth> 4 year old wants me to change it to add subways :P
17:50:24 <andythenorth> I have explained this is not easy
17:51:12 <b_jonas> andythenorth: isn't there an opengfx for that?
17:51:21 <b_jonas> with some train or tram type imitating subways
17:51:38 <b_jonas> sadly that means they can't go under house or industry squares
17:52:58 <andythenorth> he thinks I should add “UNDERGROUND_TRAIN” to L58 of map.cpp
17:55:28 <Alberth> make invisible trains that drive between normal trains?
17:57:27 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a newgrf that replaces trams with invisible versions
17:58:39 <b_jonas> andythenorth: can you just install him a copy of Locomotion?\
17:59:00 <Eddi|zuHause> a way i imagined subways to work was somewhat similar to that. basically, roadtypes get a "vertical offset", so that vehicles of this offset won't collide with vehicles of different offsets
17:59:34 <Eddi|zuHause> additional work needed for connecting different offset types together
17:59:45 <Eddi|zuHause> ("traffic objects")
18:00:08 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: but the difficulty is that metros can go under houses
18:00:18 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: but they rarely do
18:00:26 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas: most subways run under roads
18:00:35 <Eddi|zuHause> as that makes it easier to build them
18:00:44 <b_jonas> that's only the surface type of subways, the ones that are built by opening the road
18:00:52 <b_jonas> but those can't go under a river so they're useless
18:00:57 <b_jonas> real subways have tunnels digged
18:01:09 <Eddi|zuHause> then you can still build tunnels
18:01:09 <b_jonas> implement them as underground airplanes, and add newgrf airports that look like metro stations
18:01:24 <Eddi|zuHause> (in those tunnels of course you can't have stations or turns)
18:02:04 <b_jonas> let's add stargates and teleporter stations too though
18:02:11 <b_jonas> as fast future transport methods
18:02:30 <glx> teleporters already exist, they are called tunnels ;)
18:02:53 <b_jonas> no, the point of teleporters is that their speed would be independent of the distance of the two stations
18:03:05 <b_jonas> so it's worth only for teleporting vehicles to faraway places of the map
18:03:10 <andythenorth> he’s drawn us some underground tracks
18:10:39 <andythenorth> Iron Horse is 1 bug and 1 improvement away from a 1.0.0 :P
18:10:44 <andythenorth> anyone care to spoil my day?
18:16:52 <Rubidium> does it provide LU trains?
18:19:45 <Rubidium> after all... his four year old needs them
18:33:55 <Eddi|zuHause> <b_jonas> or signals <-- there are no signals for roadtypes
18:47:42 <andythenorth> Rubidium: there are some LU-ish trains in Iron Horse
18:47:47 <andythenorth> one is named after a sewer
18:49:36 <MNIM> andythenorth: The Rhine?
18:53:54 <planetmaker> the rhine is actually surprisingly healthy river
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19:05:30 <frosch123> the ankh probably is alive by itself
19:08:18 <andythenorth> also why do variable power engines show the highest option in buy menu?
19:08:24 <andythenorth> seems likely to cause disappointment :P
19:09:06 <frosch123> guaranteed not more
19:09:18 <frosch123> oh, true, missed the *
19:09:33 <planetmaker> [*] Only Fridays between 23:30h and 23:59h and on February 30th
19:09:37 <andythenorth> ‘up to’ would be a nice way to handle it :)
19:09:53 <andythenorth> it must be running the cb somehow in purchase menu
19:10:07 <Rubidium> Acceleration: 0 to 60 mph in 2 seconds
19:10:56 <Rubidium> so much fun in a country in dubio about the unit
19:11:12 <Rubidium> mostly because anything that can't reach 0.06 km/h in 2 seconds must be really really slow
19:12:22 <frosch123> ah, i thought you were refering to ottd time scales
19:12:28 <frosch123> 0 to 100 km/h in 1 day
19:15:41 <b_jonas> as for that, the available railway vehicles and buy vehicles dialog should show the railtypes the train or wagon can run on
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19:35:28 <andythenorth> "Triggers may not be set for random_switch feature 0 and type 'BACKWARD_SELF’”
19:37:16 <andythenorth> more yak-shaving
19:47:55 <andythenorth> bloody decorators
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20:40:00 <andythenorth> building on tunnel entrances
20:40:05 <andythenorth> would be close enough to subway
20:40:31 <andythenorth> there’s something practical problem with that feature?
20:58:05 *** MTsRicer is now known as MTsPony
20:58:56 <Supercheese> perhaps the catch-all excuse of "map array"?
20:59:10 <Supercheese> it is a valid concern...
21:10:37 <peter1138> remember when i had working "custom bridge heads"
21:11:00 <andythenorth> I heard a tale of it
21:11:05 <andythenorth> I even saw a screenshot
21:11:52 <b_jonas> peter1138: what are those?
21:14:47 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: afair the problem was really only graphical, and possibly with a restriction on what can be on top
21:15:28 <Eddi|zuHause> no, more like junctions and signals
21:16:27 <b_jonas> junctions on bridge heads? how could that work?
21:17:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i meant on tunnel entrance
21:18:12 <Eddi|zuHause> but yes, custom bridge heads would also allow junctions
21:18:33 <andythenorth> startup drive seems to be fucked
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22:08:45 <peter1138> hmm, if accuraterip says every single track is wrong...
22:08:52 <peter1138> i might just ignore it :S
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23:18:58 <SpComb> although still just running as dev, 'cause it's too late to figure out how to package up a full foo.h libfoo.so pyfoo.so foo.py stack for deployment into a virtualenv
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