IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-08-08
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05:54:12 <Pikkaphone> then who was breakfast?
05:56:03 <V453000> andythenorth IS breakfast
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08:18:36 <TheBix> hey guys what happens if a train wants to reverse in a station but theres no signals?
08:18:56 <TheBix> I mean if they want to drive straight but theres no signals
08:22:25 <Xaroth|Work> what can posisbly go wrong? :P
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08:27:00 <Alberth> how is no signals a problem?
08:40:30 <TheBix> Alberth, if other trains enter the block via path signals, a train which goes straight from a station doesn't check for other trains
08:41:09 <Alberth> how can you have a second train without signals?
08:41:40 <Alberth> or how can a second train want to use the tracks of the first train?
08:42:39 <Alberth> a train can turn around, and fail to reserve a new path to the exit. At that moment, it stops and continues trying to find a path
08:42:51 <Alberth> when it finds one, it moves again
08:43:11 <Alberth> assuming it is in a block entered with path signals
08:43:35 <Alberth> with block signals there is at most one train in a block, so it can just move
08:44:35 <V453000> like I can just go 3981, 3982, ... 3999 for temperate?
08:44:48 <V453000> or does anybody know if opengfx uses it shuffled? :D
08:46:30 <Alberth> hmm, should be findable in the opengfx source I guess
08:48:59 <TheBix> Alberth, but what if I tries to go straight. I've heard that trains continuing straight after stopping at a station don't run the algo for path signals
08:49:25 <V453000> Trac detected an internal error: MemoryError:
08:50:34 <V453000> thanks, that helps :)
08:52:02 <Alberth> although you use a different file
08:52:13 <V453000> btw does that order make any sense? :D
08:53:42 <Alberth> yes, if you think in bits :p
08:54:10 <Alberth> corner up/down is a bit
08:54:58 <Alberth> at least for the first 15 or so tiles :p
08:54:59 <V453000> aha that explains the missing 15 XD
08:55:11 <Alberth> with steep tiles it gets messy :)
08:56:12 <V453000> so the order in 2981-3999 sprites is : 1-14, 23 27 29 30 ?
08:56:54 <Alberth> TheBix: the station is nothing special for path finding. The train is *always* at a reserved path in a path-signal block.
08:57:08 <Alberth> thus also when it stopped at a station
08:57:31 <Alberth> let me find the opengfx sprite file
08:57:42 <V453000> the thing i pasted is probably from opengfx
08:57:49 <V453000> or ogfx+ I doubt pm changes the template there
08:58:22 <TheBix> Alberth, so the end of a station is the same a signal?
08:58:53 <TheBix> right, so then a station *must* be something special for path finding
08:58:57 <Alberth> TheBix: for the path finding, the station does not exist
08:59:01 <TheBix> since a train would only reserve a path too the station.
08:59:24 <TheBix> so then a train reseves a path all the way through even when it stops?
08:59:25 <Alberth> it reserves a path to the end of the block
08:59:48 <Alberth> blocks end at a signal, and nowhere else
09:01:04 <V453000> plus 2x 0 at the end? :d
09:01:09 <V453000> guess those arent loaded
09:01:31 <Alberth> TheBix: so if you have a station in the middle of a block, it reserves a path through the station
09:04:35 <Alberth> V453000: just copy the ground template :p
09:04:35 <TheBix> Alberth, if I set up a station that can be entered from both ends, the trains sometimes exit on the wrong side when there's traffic on the correct side, how do I fix this?
09:05:55 <V453000> Alberth: I needed to identify which sprites are which firs
09:06:01 <Alberth> there is no connection back to the right side? I would expect it to exist or the path finder won't go there
09:06:04 <V453000> with the horrible ogfx shading it wasnt so easy
09:06:16 <V453000> I think I have the order now
09:06:31 <Alberth> the bright alpine sprites help a lot there :)
09:07:07 <Alberth> worst case you have to swap some stuff in the template :)
09:09:15 <V453000> sloped industries are wtf for map generation
09:10:27 <Alberth> andy adapted his industry layout for slopes I think
09:11:04 <Alberth> things could be done a lot nicer if openttd could retrieve information about slope requirements of the industry
09:11:44 <Alberth> "cannot build here" gives such little information :)
09:13:50 <V453000> I think I have enough sprites/file size already so I would keep only flat things :P
09:14:11 <V453000> my models dont quite fit to be separated by hills
09:16:21 <Alberth> not in any trivial way no :)
09:17:01 <peter1138> TheBix, if you want a two-way station, you ought to put signals either side of each platform.
09:17:30 <peter1138> Either use block pre-signals for the whole thing, or path signals for the whole thing.
09:18:23 <TheBix> peter1138, wait so I can't put one path signal at the start of the tree?
09:18:29 <Alberth> V453000: hmm, snowy arctic landscape tiles in /base/base-4404-houses-town-snow.pnml now why doesn't that strike me as the logical place for those sprites? :) It uses the same template though, so the order should be the same
09:19:00 <V453000> got it now, just need to re-order and code themz
09:19:42 <Alberth> TheBix: you can, but a train reserves a path to the signal, and no other train will cross a reserved path
09:20:14 <Alberth> so it's a good way to claim the entire station for one train
09:34:06 <V453000> replace [<block_name>](<sprite-id>[, <image-file>]) { list of realsprites }
09:34:26 <V453000> and can I put multiple sprite-ids there?
09:37:15 <V453000> or should I just put one replace and alternative sprite per each sprite I am replacing?
09:37:18 <V453000> gets kind of repetitive :d
09:50:27 <V453000> breaking news: offsets are hell
09:52:46 <V453000> I so far think I should be dealing only with Y offset
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11:23:44 <Pokka> TheBix_, if a train has an order to stop at a (drive-through) station, it will reserve an arbitrary path on other side of the station when it enters the block, and then follow that path when it leaves. for drive-through stations, you need to put a signal immediately past the platform (or at least before any junctions) to ensure the train paths correctly when leaving the station.
11:24:31 <Pokka> that's with reversing at end-of-line only, I don't know what happens with pathfinding if you allow reversing in stations.
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11:50:12 <Pikka> how many V453000s does it take to change a lightbulb?
11:51:16 <V453000> esp if the lighbulb is an extra zoom ground sprite
11:56:51 <V453000> have you rendered any landscape yet pikka?
11:57:16 <V453000> got some tile template already?
11:58:06 <Pikka> more or less... I've put it aside for now though
11:58:49 <Pikka> for newgrfs, I'm just going to pull the basic groundsprites from the base set.. that way it'll look "nice" with zbase, or yours, or whatever.
11:59:18 <V453000> I kind of want to have 100% precise template
11:59:53 <Pikka> I don't think mine is at all 100% precise, btw :D
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12:02:23 <peter1138> Make it 102% precise.
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12:23:36 <V453000> I tried to create some mask in photoshop
12:23:42 <V453000> but it is total pain to have it 100% precise
12:24:07 <peter1138> # I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
12:24:10 <V453000> but if I want to cut tracks/roads/base tiles/everything with it I guess I kind of need it
12:42:15 <V453000> ha and I think I just found a mistake XD
12:43:58 <Pikka> V453000, hit it with a hammer until it fits
12:45:29 <V453000> am considering something like starting from no-zoom slopes
12:45:42 <V453000> that would probably make a lot of sense
12:46:37 <peter1138> put 4x4 normal-zoom sprites together...
12:48:24 <V453000> that is not as easy as you may think
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13:18:49 <V453000> aha opengfx doesnt fit together either XD
13:24:43 <ATS63> Heh... this Australia scenario I'm modifying is becoming pretty cool.
13:25:26 <ATS63> The british concept of roads, and having bends all over the place is stupid. And well, cause OpenTTD isn't even a good representation of reality, I made all the cities 3x3 grid roads
13:25:44 <ATS63> If only the australian government did that over 100 years ago
13:26:17 <andythenorth> OpenTTD’s representation of reality is truly shocking
13:26:33 <ATS63> Time is the best one. kph? Should be kpd
13:27:26 <ATS63> I wonder what kind of "Passenger" will wait at a train station for several months in any year higher than 2000
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13:27:51 <Eddi|zuHause> what's a "k" then?
13:28:47 * andythenorth -> back to deleting stuff
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13:30:13 <ATS63> This australia scenario exposes some...
13:30:32 <Eddi|zuHause> a vehicle running 128km/h-ish moves one step per tick, so sqrt(5) pixels per 33.33... ms.
13:30:35 <Eddi|zuHause> lets assume 96dpi
13:30:55 <ATS63> So there are 2 oil refineries in au? Melb and newcastle or something. 1024x1024 map, hell even 512x512, oil wells in NT or WA are well outside reach
13:31:50 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc sqrt(5)/(33/1000/3600)/96/2.54/100
13:31:50 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 10.0038832207
13:32:30 <Eddi|zuHause> so a vehicle travelling 128-km/h-ish in-game actually travels 10km/h
13:33:27 <ATS63> I'm assuming that isn't a second
13:33:38 <ATS63> but something far greater, like an hour
13:34:05 <Eddi|zuHause> 33/1000/3600 is the tick->hour conversion
13:34:42 <ATS63> Damn. That is slow. I can run that fast :/
13:35:04 <ATS63> Except for my dangerously obesity. That slows me down.
13:35:08 <Eddi|zuHause> not over an hour :)
13:35:18 <Eddi|zuHause> except maybe if you like marathons
13:35:41 <ATS63> I did north face 100... 120km run in a day.
13:37:04 <ATS63> Nice to know I'm faster than OpenTTD vehicles
13:37:30 <Eddi|zuHause> not if you lower the resolution :)
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16:22:06 <Eddi|zuHause> WE ARE ALL CATTLE!
16:30:57 <ATS65> Am I supposed to be mooooved?
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18:51:04 <Wolf01> my stupid usb zyxel wifi dongle doesn't want to be used as an access point
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18:53:34 <andythenorth> that’s the Blighty roster
18:53:43 <andythenorth> I wish someone would fix the sprites :P
18:53:49 <andythenorth> but there is no santa claus
18:54:06 <Pikka> but a boat is a boat, isn't it? how do you
18:54:28 <Wolf01> what about adding the ss great eastern to that set?
18:54:31 <andythenorth> I don’t know, it comes naturally
18:54:50 <Pikka> isn't the oztralian or wherever roster going to be 90% the same?
18:55:05 <andythenorth> Pikka: well yes maybes
18:55:16 <andythenorth> do first, regret alter
18:55:38 <Pikka> blighty is "realism" or something
18:55:56 <andythenorth> Pikka: only if all ships in UK are 70mph hovercraft after 1968 :D
18:57:56 <andythenorth> it’s a big old beast
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18:58:42 <andythenorth> Pikka: maybe an australia roster is not a thing :)
18:58:57 <andythenorth> it would probably have super-zippy austral cats
18:59:03 <andythenorth> and some convict ships :P
19:30:36 <Pikka> are they funny looking?
19:35:01 <andythenorth> apparently it fits under a 14.99m length
19:35:05 <andythenorth> so it is license exempt
19:35:37 * Pikka would be tempted to make a ship that's just less than 14.99m wide
19:35:43 <Pikka> and then claim it moves sideways
19:37:04 <Wolf01> I'm tempted to convert to steampunk the game I'm writing
19:37:50 <andythenorth> steampunk is a bit odd
19:37:54 <andythenorth> it never clicks for me
19:40:24 <Wolf01> as now it's set at our days
19:40:57 <Wolf01> but I'm a bit limited by the environment
20:03:26 <andythenorth> I want a set, but with order (python)
20:03:30 <andythenorth> that is a tricky ask
20:07:46 <andythenorth> ships, max sensible capacity (tankers, general cargo)?
20:08:06 <andythenorth> currently 1.2m litres or 1200t
20:08:15 * andythenorth thinks a bit bigger
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20:44:19 <iCookRice> i am trying to load a height map on a dedicated server, have already tried using a newheightmapgame patch, which patched in and compiled, but does not successfully work
20:44:25 <iCookRice> i crash when trying to execute the command
20:47:14 <frosch123> just create a save with a gui client, and transfer it to the server
20:47:33 <frosch123> imo that is the easiest way for all cases
20:48:27 <iCookRice> which is what i thought of doing, but that would mean that my industries and towns are the same at every game creation?
20:49:34 <frosch123> yes, just like the heights :)
20:52:55 <iCookRice> okay, so if i do that, how can i make towns in my scenario spawn in the 2x2 grid setting
20:54:12 <iCookRice> also, what is the flattest i can get a map with opened.cfg? i do not see a flatness setting like on a gui new game creation
20:54:19 <iCookRice> am i just missing something obvious?
20:55:55 <frosch123> you can use the scenario editor or a height map
20:56:03 <frosch123> the terrain generator is meant to generate terrain
20:56:09 <frosch123> a flat map is no terrain
20:56:47 <iCookRice> how does that relate to the .cfg though
20:57:06 <iCookRice> in .cfg, i have options for 0 (original) or 1 (TGP)
20:57:17 <frosch123> no idea, it kind of confuses me that you want to randomise towns and industries, but not terrain :)
20:58:23 <iCookRice> i just like having as flat as a map as possible
20:58:36 <iCookRice> but varying industries gives me something different each game
20:58:50 <iCookRice> is there a way to get a flatter map in the .cfg?
20:58:59 <iCookRice> patching and whatnot is just too much work
20:59:22 <frosch123> maybe you disabled realistic acceleration or so
20:59:23 <iCookRice> so how does the "flatness" option in the guy new game cross over to the command line?
20:59:33 <iCookRice> realistic acceleration is on
20:59:38 <frosch123> i wouldn't know why anyone would want to play on a flat map, except when using original acceleration
20:59:42 <iCookRice> it's more about building layout
20:59:56 <iCookRice> and not having to level everything manually when i want to build huge depots
21:00:15 <frosch123> anyway, create the cfg with a gui client, and transfer it
21:26:16 <b_jonas> I like to level everything, but I like that to be a challenge so I don't play on very flat maps (I don't play on very hilly maps either though)
21:26:34 <b_jonas> and I can't just level everything because sometimes the stations are on a very different height
21:26:39 <b_jonas> I mean the industries
21:27:06 <b_jonas> like, the forest is high up in the mountains and the sawmill on the plains six levels belo
21:27:23 <b_jonas> I can place the stations a bit closer in height, but there's still some difference in height the train has to climb
21:27:35 <b_jonas> luckily for wood it typically has to go downwards, not up
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22:08:03 <__ln__> how does one measure sunlight in inches?
22:08:38 <frosch123> like you measure rain
22:08:50 <frosch123> just take the height of the photon pile on the ground
22:11:27 <__ln__> inch is a unit of how long it is until sunset. but how?
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22:52:10 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> I want a set, but with order (python) <-- i'd probably start with typing "ordered set python" into google and see what comes out. there's bound to be an existing library for that somewhere
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23:02:26 <Jinassi> anyone have any idea if scenarios from ttd are still under copyright?
23:02:49 <Jinassi> or, if they even fall under that category
23:06:01 <Eddi|zuHause> they definitely do
23:06:23 <Jinassi> oh dear, then it's the same as origigi graphics
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