IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-08-05
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11:00:05 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 4 days, 13 hours, 52 minutes, and 33 seconds ago: <Pikka> also goodnight, then
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11:58:37 <andythenorth> ship progression is ~pointless
11:59:00 <andythenorth> the only valid progression is slow ships -> fast ships
11:59:20 <andythenorth> i.e. standard hull -> hydrofoil / hovercraft
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12:13:40 <V453000> andythenorth: congratulations on the research progress :P
12:14:11 <andythenorth> did you reach the same conclusion?
12:14:15 <andythenorth> can we publish a paper?
12:14:27 <andythenorth> trains are much easier, much more fun
12:14:56 <peter1138> Don't buy stupid, pipelines are where it's at.
12:16:10 <andythenorth> pipelines are awesome
12:16:13 <andythenorth> but not for cows
12:16:36 <andythenorth> V453000: ^ want to make a set?
12:16:39 <andythenorth> transparent tubes
12:16:49 <andythenorth> roll coils, slide cows etc
12:17:56 <V453000> I already said I might draw something like that
12:20:07 <andythenorth> wtf shall I do about ships?
12:23:18 <Rubidium> too bad ships don't block eachother, otherwise you could sink ships and then those "sunk" ships could become reefs over time without the ships passing along
12:23:56 <peter1138> I don't even have a patch for that.
12:24:18 <Rubidium> that it... the end of the universe as we knew it
12:25:51 <peter1138> # It's the end of the univerve as we know it, and I'm alriiiiiight.
12:26:11 <andythenorth> inwisible ships?
12:26:17 <andythenorth> everything moves by submarine?
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13:12:47 <andythenorth> but only along fixed paths
13:15:26 <andythenorth> you build ‘lines’
13:15:28 <V453000> PS high speeds are retarded, see vactrains
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13:15:30 <andythenorth> for ‘teleporters'
13:15:46 <V453000> I think some pipey thingz would be nice
13:15:50 <V453000> might try to render somez
13:16:06 <V453000> would not be brutal amount of work either
13:16:31 <andythenorth> should be transparent
13:16:38 <andythenorth> with trains marked with little circles for cargo
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13:16:39 <V453000> yeah, half-transparent
13:17:03 <V453000> you just have a pipe and see some liquid travel through it as a train
13:17:06 <andythenorth> I am bored of not-quite-good-enough realistic graphics
13:17:08 <V453000> relatively easy and would look nice
13:17:24 <V453000> alternatively it could be an U pipe
13:17:32 <V453000> so you could see into it from the top without transparency
13:18:42 <V453000> exactly what I thought about
13:19:05 <V453000> might try something tonight, I actually have everything I need to make rails, except slopes
13:19:14 <andythenorth> bored of realism, but I am not imaginative enough to come up with alternatives
13:19:36 <V453000> your teddy bear will tell you alternatives
13:19:48 <andythenorth> actually, my current favourite thing is things that were real, but never made it past prototype stage
13:19:59 <andythenorth> alternate histories
13:20:45 <V453000> what use should the pipeline have? :P
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13:23:09 <V453000> everything can be liquified
13:23:26 <V453000> livestock can just be red
13:24:21 <andythenorth> would probably work pretty well
13:25:18 <V453000> I wouldnt discriminate any cargo type :)
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13:25:37 <andythenorth> I was thinking in RL
13:25:40 <andythenorth> I might patent it
13:26:41 <V453000> I will try to remake PURR into 32bpp tonight
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13:26:56 <V453000> creating some pipeline is just re-rendering with different model
13:27:03 <V453000> the trains would probably be eazy
13:27:19 <V453000> go think of a creative grf name :P
13:30:20 <V453000> wat does it stand for?
13:32:35 <peter1138> multi-user shared hallucination
13:32:44 <andythenorth> also you shout it at dogs
13:32:51 <andythenorth> or you mush things in a blender
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13:34:50 <V453000> FLOOD Liquid O.O. Displacement ? .d
13:38:26 <V453000> can you imagine how awesome would it be if the station sprites would turn into pipe ends and pools? XD
13:38:45 <V453000> well more like sewers
13:38:54 <V453000> well yeah but how would the train look :P
13:39:01 <V453000> also how should empty tranez look
13:39:13 <andythenorth> have you tried PIPE?
13:39:21 <andythenorth> signals in PIPE are a PITA
13:39:28 <andythenorth> signals should just be markers on the ground
13:39:28 <V453000> have you seen wetrail signals?
13:39:49 <V453000> not very beautiful but very readable
13:40:43 <andythenorth> oh the humanity :|
13:42:57 <andythenorth> pipes should be over-buildable by roads and stuff
13:43:01 <andythenorth> i.e. level crossings
13:43:10 <andythenorth> they are underground
13:43:14 <andythenorth> PIPE forbids it :)
13:43:32 <V453000> forbidding level crossings is one of the top retarded features
13:44:20 <andythenorth> yeah anyway, just signals on the ground?
13:44:22 <V453000> btw AsphaltRails could be amazing
13:44:29 <V453000> yeah, just short signals
13:44:58 <V453000> single trucks, choice of trailers, creating your own consists, ... :P
13:45:25 <V453000> xcept towns dont grow over that but meh
13:45:36 <V453000> is realistic; civil X cargo roads :P
14:08:10 <Eddi|zuHause> <V453000> forbidding level crossings is one of the top retarded features <-- well, if you think train "crashing" with a blob of oil a better feature...
14:08:27 <andythenorth> oil is underground
14:08:30 <Eddi|zuHause> or a truck being overrun by oil
14:08:53 <Eddi|zuHause> not all pipelines are underground
14:09:06 <Eddi|zuHause> if it's underground it's not a "level" crossing
14:09:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: did you try to dm me, or is your client being odd?
14:09:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i clicked some wrong button somewhen
14:11:09 <V453000> oh yeah crashes with oil blobs will be the best
14:11:16 <V453000> wait for when oil crashes with alcohol
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16:24:07 <Alberth> hmm, don't they know china -> us should go the other way around ? :)
16:25:48 <LordAro> wouldn't look as good graphically, i suspect
16:25:57 <LordAro> alternatively, it was more difficult to implement :p
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16:55:43 <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly is that?
16:56:50 <Alberth> a nice looking graphics display
16:59:30 <frosch123> something russia does not participate in
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17:11:56 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it's basically SCHUFA, but for the internet
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17:45:49 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26721 trunk/src/lang/korean.txt (2014-08-05 17:45:43 UTC)
17:45:50 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:51 <DorpsGek> korean - 3 changes by telk5093
17:45:52 <DorpsGek> norwegian_bokmal - 1 changes by
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18:08:18 <andythenorth> so if there is a 400 pax 70mph hovercraft, what is the point of a 1000 pax 25mph ferry?
18:09:19 <andythenorth> the hovercraft will transport more pax per hour
18:09:42 <andythenorth> infrastructure impact is moot
18:09:47 <andythenorth> running costs are irrelevant
18:11:26 <Supercheese> Ferry has better cargo_age_period ?
18:12:04 <Supercheese> hovercraft be noisy and obnoxious
18:14:42 <frosch123> andythenorth: in case of aircraft the bigger capacity would be way better
18:14:58 <frosch123> ships have the issue that station capacity is unlimited
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18:25:47 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why that is the main thing i woul change about ships
18:26:44 <Eddi|zuHause> not collision in open water or ocean speed
18:28:21 <Eddi|zuHause> aircraft need holding pattern control (priorities, timetables, interleaving take of and landing)
18:30:56 <Eddi|zuHause> and trains need routes...
18:31:29 <andythenorth> it does make ship set design surprisingly hard
18:31:46 <andythenorth> no infrastructure issues
18:31:53 <andythenorth> no concern about power on hills
18:32:16 <andythenorth> I could use cargo-aging to make hovercraft unpleasant, but that kind of balancing rarely works
18:32:30 <andythenorth> just cripples one vehicle, or makes two equal, therefore pointless
18:33:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i would just make 3 generations: sail, steam and diesel. a bunch of capacities for each generation that make good multiples.
18:34:13 * Pinkbeast murmurs something about prevailing wind
18:34:32 <andythenorth> I’m down to 5 pax ships for 1870-2000
18:34:33 <Eddi|zuHause> and multiply all cargo age periods by 4
18:35:26 <Eddi|zuHause> main use case for capacities is to match the capacity of the train for transfer services
18:35:55 <andythenorth> I’ve only got 100 pax, or [large]
18:35:55 <Eddi|zuHause> transfers would work better if there was a "wait for non-zero load" option
18:36:06 <andythenorth> would be good for cdist
18:36:26 <andythenorth> I’m sure you can create one with conditional orders
18:36:29 <andythenorth> have fun with that :P
18:36:40 <Eddi|zuHause> the ships would toot every few seconds
18:36:58 <andythenorth> what is the objection to % loaded?
18:36:58 <Eddi|zuHause> and potentially go round in circles
18:37:09 <Eddi|zuHause> too overloaded gui
18:48:14 <Alberth> I really like your double and quadruple production in firs, it causes major havoc in my networks :p
18:49:41 <andythenorth> it’s good for goal games
18:49:51 <andythenorth> otherwise it should be 1.5x and 2x
18:50:14 <Eddi|zuHause> or add more steps?
18:50:41 <Eddi|zuHause> 1.33, 1.5, 2, 3, 4?
18:51:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't actually played with this version of FIRS
18:52:13 <Eddi|zuHause> make it so that 4 needs so many supplies that you can't possibly fulfill it for all industries
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18:57:54 <andythenorth> you can always fulfill
18:57:58 <andythenorth> just build more sources
18:58:22 <andythenorth> Alberth: is that to get supplies out or in?
18:59:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but if you increase the number of primary industries, you need to deliver more supplies to them
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19:00:39 <Eddi|zuHause> if you need the same number of supplies to go from 1 to 3 as you need from 3 to 4, you might consider building another industry and getting it to 3 instead of increasing the one you have
19:00:45 <Eddi|zuHause> depending on space
19:01:52 <Alberth> clay in, chemicals + supplies out (supplies at the higher station)
19:02:30 * andythenorth mostly plays basic economies
19:02:40 <andythenorth> basic economies have short cuts for supplies
19:02:42 <andythenorth> build more ports
19:02:53 <andythenorth> it’s more fun imo
19:03:40 <Eddi|zuHause> but if you need to double the number of ports to get from 3 to 4...
19:04:24 <Alberth> I haven't played firs enough to know the industries, there are just too many in full firs
19:05:01 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe even use 4 as base: 1.33: 4, 1.5: 16, 2: 64, 3: 256, 4: 1024
19:08:53 * andythenorth is pleased when copy-paste works for maintaining a set
19:08:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i only know roosters
19:09:02 <andythenorth> better than building some big external framework
19:20:07 <andythenorth> so basically paddle steamers -> hovercraft
19:20:10 <andythenorth> seems reasonable to me
19:23:36 <Prof_Frink> Paddle steamers -> hovercraft -> hover steamers.
19:25:29 <Taede> sounds like something you can use to play tabletennis from the couch
19:31:39 <andythenorth> V453000: is train curve speed a thing?
19:33:26 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, but it's hardcoded and hacked
19:35:09 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i would possibly remove hovercraft completely, and have hydrofoils as the futuristic ship generation
19:35:50 <peter1138> hovercraft aren't futuristic at all
19:36:06 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: no, but they are niche
19:36:17 <Eddi|zuHause> and ship mechanics have no space for niches
19:36:31 <andythenorth> you get to choose rosters
19:36:36 <andythenorth> this roster has hovercraft
19:36:42 <andythenorth> some other rosters will have hydrofoils
19:37:06 <Eddi|zuHause> so you have sails: 1500-1850, steam: 1850-1950, diesel: 1950-2030, and hydrofoil 2030-...
19:37:07 <Prof_Frink> Ekranoplans in others?
19:37:08 * andythenorth stops trying to make *the* definitive vehicle set
19:37:09 <peter1138> Include all the things
19:37:33 <andythenorth> action 14 params that offer a select, but subscribing to a list
19:37:51 <andythenorth> when a selection is made by one param, the item is popped from the list
19:38:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue what you mean
19:38:25 <andythenorth> you don’t speak GUI :P
19:39:28 <andythenorth> action 14 params: roster 1 [options], roster 2 [options], roster 3 [options]
19:39:34 <andythenorth> (3 rosters is enough)
19:39:50 <andythenorth> if the options are ‘Brit’, ‘Euro’, ‘USA’ etc
19:40:09 <andythenorth> and I select ‘Brit’ for roster 1, it should no longer be a valid option for roster 2 or 3
19:40:21 <andythenorth> some UI systems handle this by subscribing to a data provider
19:40:26 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that cannot be done
19:40:50 <Eddi|zuHause> all action14 info is static
19:41:03 <andythenorth> so either I do something different
19:41:12 <andythenorth> or I let player choose the same roster multiple times
19:41:40 <andythenorth> static for newgrf
19:41:46 <andythenorth> static for openttd also?
19:42:19 <andythenorth> that’s why action 14 changes aren’t picked up until I quit and restart openttd?
19:42:46 <Eddi|zuHause> the info is constructed on game start
19:42:52 <andythenorth> it’s always nice to avoid writing more code
19:43:07 <Eddi|zuHause> when scannig for newgrf, action 14 and action8 are read
19:43:27 <Eddi|zuHause> and the md5 is calculated
19:45:07 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly "rescan_newgrfs" does this as well, but i'm not sure
19:48:04 <Eddi|zuHause> also, it's possible that people pass parameters that are not selectable by action14
19:54:11 <Eddi|zuHause> very unfortunate cut :p
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19:59:11 <keoz> You guys where definetely right advising to use Mercurial for patching ... I love that.
19:59:22 <andythenorth> steam hovercraft
19:59:35 <Eddi|zuHause> sail hovercraft!
20:00:31 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should make a steampunk ship set
20:00:39 <andythenorth> don’t really like steampunk enough
20:00:50 <andythenorth> I went looking for *punk that I liked
20:01:26 <andythenorth> this set gets closer and closer to NewShips every time I work on it :P
20:01:35 <andythenorth> likely MB got it right years ago
20:05:04 <frosch123> maybe try to make stuff not right
20:05:15 <frosch123> may make it more interesting
20:06:07 <andythenorth> I leave that to V :)
20:09:46 <NGC3982> peter1138: The tragic thing is that i have managed that accident like five times.
20:09:55 <NGC3982> I despice packaging like that.
20:10:25 <peter1138> yeah it's a pain in the arse
20:10:33 <peter1138> especially if you ever have to take the product back...
20:18:57 <Eddi|zuHause> life was so much easier before 1989. no plastic stuff that was glued to impossibly open
20:19:41 <Eddi|zuHause> "Scheiß Westverpackungen" was a phrase my mother used very very often
20:29:38 <andythenorth> a roster has 20-30 ships
20:29:49 <andythenorth> maybe a fixed amount of 24, but rules get broken
20:29:58 <andythenorth> how many rosters active at once
20:56:25 <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly is a "roster" and why do you need several at the same time?
20:58:22 <andythenorth> players who insist on spamming their buy menu might want more
20:58:33 <andythenorth> roster = sub-set of vehicles
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