IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-07-03
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00:08:57 <Eddi|zuHause> MTsPony: is this the negotiating phase of grief? it won't change the fact.
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05:46:37 <Flygon> SIDEWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYS
05:48:03 <Flygon> DDR, that costume is incredible
05:48:16 <Flygon> If so, that's awkward timing with AC
05:48:22 <Flygon> Unless it's a different country...
05:48:34 <DDR> He's going as "Brony Stark".
05:49:09 <DDR> Flygon: I have no explanation for the loading of the image. It loaded triangularly for me.
05:49:36 <DDR> Yeah, torn down the upper-right corner.
05:49:50 <DDR> Then it fixed itself. And rotated itself.
05:50:15 <DDR> At least, I think it was that one... there are other shots if you go up to the folder. :p
05:51:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i've neither seen much of ironman nor of ponys to get the joke...
05:52:22 <Flygon> That costume is AWESOME
05:52:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and not sure what your problem with the image is...
05:52:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it opened right side up for me...
05:53:10 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you have a funky image viewer
05:53:50 <Flygon> It loaded correctly for me
05:53:54 <Flygon> But the image loaded slowly
05:54:03 <Flygon> So it instead of loading top>bottom
05:54:10 <Flygon> Or bottom>top like a bitmap
05:54:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't get to see that, as my image viewer cached the whole image before displaying
05:55:21 <Eddi|zuHause> and that's entirely up to the image encoder to decide which order the pixels are stored in
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07:48:38 <V453000> anybody knows a program for converting GPS to Cartesian coordinate systems?
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07:50:31 <planetmaker> ehm... GPS coordinates, like northing and easting?
07:53:24 <V453000> e.g. 50.6891164N, 13.9336400E to cartesian - X,Y like in autocad
07:54:00 <planetmaker> there's not one way, there is 20 or more ways. It all depends on the map projection you want to use
07:54:14 <planetmaker> i.e. on how you envision the whole earth to look like
07:54:31 <planetmaker> it's a sphere's surface. You can't put that with some conversion onto a rectangle
07:54:42 <planetmaker> and there are zillions map projections
07:54:52 <planetmaker> those which retain area, those which retain angle, or neither
07:55:17 <planetmaker> for small areas, just take GPS coordinates as cartesian
07:55:55 <planetmaker> if you want to span more than 10 linear degrees you might consider conversion
07:56:03 <planetmaker> otherwise just take it as cartesian
07:56:27 <V453000> well it spews out something :D
07:57:18 <planetmaker> I'm not sure that that page is actually helpful. But well :)
07:57:32 <planetmaker> it does not seem to offer the projection you ask(ed) for
07:57:41 <planetmaker> just conversion from one spherical grid to another
07:57:53 <planetmaker> except... maybe wsg84
07:58:59 <planetmaker> I could recommend you to use GMT. But that's like using autocad to draw a rectangle
08:00:29 <planetmaker> but what do you actually try to do, V453000 ?
08:04:11 <planetmaker> the mapproject routine from that set is what you might want
08:04:46 * planetmaker likes GMT quite a lot. Light-weight and very powerful
08:06:27 <V453000> I am trying to get from a web map GPS coordinates, which then I need to put in a 3D software as x,y,
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08:07:18 <planetmaker> except for maps, peter1138 :P
08:12:02 <V453000> I found some old program on our disk for it :D
08:12:33 <V453000> apparently some czech wtf
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08:30:56 <DorpsGek> perk11: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
08:32:24 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
08:32:27 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: 'fac' is not a defined function.
08:32:31 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: 'faculty' is not a defined function.
08:36:32 <LordAro> inferior calculator :p
08:39:07 <planetmaker> @calc factorial(9)
08:39:07 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: 'factorial' is not a defined function.
08:40:55 <planetmaker> yeah. old python version for supybot, I recon :P webster knows factorial :P
08:41:42 <Xaroth|Work> python's math lib doesn't have factorial by default iirc
08:47:36 <DorpsGek> perk11: Error: The answer exceeded 1.79769313486e+308 or so.
08:49:35 <LordAro> dem floating point limits
09:20:17 <Xaroth|Work> hm, never knew that
10:42:09 <__ln__> V453000: is czech considering the euro?
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10:55:58 <V453000> __ln__: it definitely is a big topic, but how soon is that possible, no idea
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12:28:35 <George> Hi. What should happen, if a GRF changes (decreases!!!) vehicle capacity depending on current date? Should cargo disappear?
12:30:12 <TinoDidriksen> Why would capacity decrease over time?
12:31:56 <V453000> George: it is a feature I have promised not to change over time
12:32:06 <V453000> it will cause desyncs, that is the first thing it will probably do :)
12:32:25 <V453000> other than that I believe the cargo should disappear but who knows
12:33:49 <George> And what should I di with EVS1? In 2013 RZHD modified the head wagons of EVS1 in use so they decreased the capacity.
12:34:01 <peter1138> capacity... shouldn't ever change.
12:34:14 <peter1138> certainly not based on date.
12:34:22 <peter1138> that's a recipe for desyncs.
12:34:42 <George> in RL they did it without passengers in depot, but how to represent in in game?
12:35:07 <V453000> have two models if you want different capacity I guess
12:35:31 <V453000> also, vehicle randomly decreasing capacity is more of a bug than a feature
12:35:45 <V453000> "randomly to a player who does not expect it
12:35:49 <George> They did not change the new ones. They changed ones in operations. The trains that was already build
12:36:09 <peter1138> i'd suggest skipping that 'feature'
12:36:14 <V453000> sorry George but how does that improve the gameplay of the set
12:36:22 <V453000> I agree with peter1138
12:36:40 <George> It becomes more realistic :D
12:37:08 <George> It depends on what is helpful
12:37:43 <V453000> anything realistic that feasts on functionality is certainly not
12:37:57 <V453000> this would probably devour functionality entirely :D
12:38:20 <Eddi|zuHause> try "date of last service", but this is certainly beyond the line of "realism" vs gameplay than i would go
12:39:38 <George> Eddi|zuHause: that would change the date but not the situation. what's would be the profit if the capacity change happens in depot? Cargo lost is safe there?
12:40:23 <Eddi|zuHause> depots lose cargo all the time, e.g. on selling or autoreplace
12:41:11 <Eddi|zuHause> if it desyncs at this place, you can certainly blame it on openttd
12:41:17 <George> You mean there would be no desync?
12:43:58 <peter1138> I guess the concept of cached parameters just isn't 'got'
12:46:33 <Eddi|zuHause> George: i don't see why it would desync. all the relevant callbacks are certainly run on entering the depot, so there is no point in time where loading the savegame would yield different results than if it was already loaded and running
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13:59:39 <Eddi|zuHause> <V453000> __ln__: it definitely is a big topic, but how soon is that possible, no idea <-- i thought the czechs are extremely EU and euro sceptical
14:08:22 <V453000> that is also true Eddi
14:08:38 <V453000> yet I think euro is like 40/60
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15:21:31 <NGC3982> Do you guys think YAPF can be extracted and applicated on a real model railway?
15:22:18 <Alberth> it's just A*, I don't see why it would not work
15:22:41 <Alberth> assuming you don't have dead ends :p
15:23:19 <Alberth> A* is the name of the algorithm
15:23:45 <Alberth> the Internet can tell you all about it :)
15:24:31 * NGC3982 googles for king and country.
15:25:13 <Alberth> a bigger problem may be that you have people around the model railway that believe it should be realistic, and have time tables and fixed routes and such
15:26:33 <NGC3982> It's not actually for me, but a question that arose in another part of IRC.
15:27:07 <NGC3982> Although, i feel the person asking will have less trouble with setting up correct timetables than applying YAPF safety features.
15:27:33 <Alberth> you shouldn't handle safety in the routing, I think
15:27:44 <Alberth> routing gives path on the tracks
15:27:50 <Alberth> signals handle safety
15:28:06 <NGC3982> Oh, i did not know it was a separated thing.
15:28:42 <Alberth> never used signals in OpenTTD? :)
15:29:06 <NGC3982> Yes, although, i never cared to find out how much of OpenTTD is YAPF.
15:29:12 <Alberth> or rather, never used a track without signals, yet the train can find its way?
15:30:19 <Alberth> routing is mostly like car navigation, you get a plan how to get from A to B
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15:30:49 <NGC3982> As visualized with the reserved track function, for instance?
15:31:48 <Alberth> or in case of cars, if you print a route, it says "go left, drive for 5 miles, go right, etc"
15:32:05 <planetmaker> <Alberth> you shouldn't handle safety in the routing, I think <-- and you don't want to hear the stories on how safety of routing is actually handled. One of my friends works on certification of station signaling... oh dear!
15:32:33 <planetmaker> scary on what sometimes is possible to signal according to his tales :)
15:33:10 <Alberth> just like your average computerised system :)
15:33:22 <planetmaker> and yes, he gets to review the layouts as suggested by the big players like Siemens & Co
15:33:28 * NGC3982 is soon to be married to an ATC developer.
15:34:19 <NGC3982> She rarely talks about it, but i notice that she does not approve of the Swedish safety systems that are in place.
15:34:25 <NGC3982> Maybe they need YAPF more than me!
15:35:09 <NGC3982> Sorry, i'm wrong. It's apparently ERTMS nowadays.
15:36:18 <planetmaker> the problem there is not the train control system. But the possible signaled routes. They simply must avoid collision under all circumstances. Which they often don't ;)
15:36:25 <Eddi|zuHause> sorry to spoil your joke, but YAPF is not a safety mechanism at all
15:36:45 <planetmaker> i.e. operator failure must not be able to create crossing free-to-pass routes for different trains
15:36:49 <Alberth> It's a sort of side-effect of working in technology. You spend your days solving problems, every day. At some point you forget that many things actually work quite well, as you focus on problems only
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15:37:45 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: That has been established.
15:39:01 <Alberth> NGC3982: safety is about timing, ie being at the wrong place at the wrong time. The route is still right though
15:39:01 <Alberth> You need another mechanism to handle safety, one that actually looks at the local situation, like a driver of a car, or a system that controls signals
15:41:47 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: pherhaps you meant to say "PBS"
15:42:25 <Alberth> They probably use block signals in ATC :)
15:42:40 <Eddi|zuHause> which actually is a safety mechanism, but it's grossly oversimplified
15:42:46 <V453000> do industries behave the original way if I dont set any production thingies?
15:42:58 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Simplified is good. Thanks. :)
15:43:30 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: never rely on default values in NFO/NML
15:43:53 <planetmaker> V453000, yes. But only the default industries. As you disable them... don't assume defaults
15:44:04 <V453000> that is what I thought pm, thanks
15:49:44 <V453000> mhfff :D any hints on where to start with some basic production?
15:50:33 <Eddi|zuHause> anything not involving the production callback
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16:04:16 <planetmaker> but easier to do with the properties prod_multiplier for primary industries
16:04:50 <planetmaker> input_multiplier_1/2/3 for secondary
16:14:37 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the git command to delete all local files which are not in the repo?
16:17:59 <Eddi|zuHause> my current way is something like "rm * -r; git reset --hard"
16:18:06 <Eddi|zuHause> which seems weird
16:18:19 <Eddi|zuHause> but maybe it's just git's general weirdness
16:21:49 <Alberth> your "rm" obviously was not hard enough, as git could recover from it :p
16:22:47 <Alberth> you could try some git status command, with a fuzzy flag perhaps?
16:25:40 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like "if git still works after issuing a command, you did it wrong?" :p
16:34:36 <planetmaker> now... that's a long-term project. Seems they re-established communications with a 1978-launched satellite which was lost for years and even managed to start its engines after 27 years of not being used
16:36:37 <Eddi|zuHause> wasn't that already in the news like two months ago?
16:37:18 <planetmaker> that's probably when they started to make effort to actually do that, yes. And it's in the news as they had to re-engineer the communication equipment which NASA scrapped 10 years ago :P
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16:58:44 * NGC3982 explores the autoclean function for the first time.
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17:22:51 <V453000> im not so sure I am going to be able to code industries :|
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17:34:14 <frosch123> industries are easier than vehicles
17:45:36 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26672 /trunk/src/lang (catalan.txt spanish.txt) (2014-07-03 17:45:28 UTC)
17:45:37 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:38 <DorpsGek> catalan - 1 changes by juanjo
17:45:39 <DorpsGek> spanish - 44 changes by juanjo
17:51:44 <V453000> vehicles at least dont produce anything frosch123 :D
17:52:21 <V453000> life_type: IND_LIFE_TYPE_PROCESSING; should this turn the industry into a "secondary"
17:54:02 <frosch123> EXTRACTIVE/ORGANIC are primary industries that change production randomly
17:54:14 <frosch123> PROCESSING are industries that randomly close
17:54:24 <frosch123> BLOCK_HOLE are industries that do nothing random
17:58:26 <V453000> well the thing is that I want all industries to accept and produce something
17:58:37 <V453000> so I thought i could make primaries into processing as well
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17:59:57 <V453000> even further confusing is, that oil well and oil refinery both have exactly the same code minus one producing OIL_ and accepting YETI, and the other accepting OIL_ and producing RFPR ... one has written "accepts OIL_", but the other does not have "accepts YETI"
18:00:15 <V453000> not to mention that the refinery produces something all the time, not influenced by oil delivery :D
18:00:50 <V453000> I tried to apply the produce thingy but I guess that is not done quite correctly :)
18:03:49 <V453000> btw if my industry has 16 tiles, does that mean the minimum value to produce is 16, and that the smallest number I can add is 16? Like, that I can only have 16,32,48,64,... production in total?
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18:16:19 <Eddi|zuHause> it probably doesn't work like this
18:16:39 <frosch123> V453000: the life_type does not define when a industry produces something or whether it needs cargo
18:16:51 <frosch123> it defines what the randomness does, and how it can be funded
18:17:10 <frosch123> but you can also replace the randomness
18:17:25 <frosch123> so, the main thing it does is how it is funded
18:17:40 <frosch123> but e.g. silicon valley will also check for primary/secondary industries
18:19:16 <V453000> I guess looking at how firs defines production is not a good idea to get less confused? :D
18:21:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not always convinced andy actually knows what he's doing :p
18:22:11 <Eddi|zuHause> but also, it's using weird production callback things that you probably don't want (initially)
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18:25:14 <V453000> I bet andythenorth wants to code yeti
18:30:44 <Eddi|zuHause> outside my door, demanding food
18:32:40 <frosch123> didn't you have two? you could feed them to eachother
18:34:53 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26673 /branches/1.4 (5 files in 3 dirs) (2014-07-03 18:34:46 UTC)
18:34:54 <DorpsGek> [1.4] -Update documentation
18:36:36 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26674 /tags/1.4.2-RC1 (3 files in 3 dirs) (2014-07-03 18:36:30 UTC)
18:36:42 <Eddi|zuHause> they kinda refuse that
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18:39:16 <andythenorth> I was writing faster newgrf compile
18:39:33 <andythenorth> Alberth: should I continue? Have I missed any exciting nml things?
18:40:18 <Alberth> just my wild plan to rewrite all expression stuff in nml?
18:40:29 <Alberth> but it's just plans, currently
18:40:39 <V453000> make industries easy to code in NML :D
18:40:56 <frosch123> andythenorth: write an release news post instead?
18:42:51 <Alberth> want to write a release news post?
18:43:41 <Wolf01> I'll translate it for my site when it's done :P
18:45:20 <Alberth> this time you could do it the other way around :)
18:47:53 <Wolf01> I'll write it on my site and you translate it for OTTD?
18:47:58 <frosch123> Wolf01: you could talk about issues with osx and savegames with 5k stations or something
18:48:14 <frosch123> but noone knows why osx suddenly started failing that often
18:49:06 <Wolf01> I suddenly became dyslexic, I read "farted sailing"
18:49:44 <andythenorth> where is changelog?
18:51:25 * andythenorth considers announcing that underground building is now included
18:51:31 <andythenorth> but it’s hidden, and you have to look for it
18:51:33 <frosch123> the last issue on that list (FS#6012) was reported like 4 times in the past weeks
18:52:09 <andythenorth> can’t you just do what I do for newgrfs and post changelog? o_O
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19:04:11 <V453000> what could cause all the ??? at my stringzors?
19:04:32 <V453000> or ... the ? in cargo amount
19:05:02 <andythenorth> industries are easy :D
19:05:13 <frosch123> did you specify all cargo string parameters?
19:05:23 <frosch123> do they include the required string codes?
19:05:29 <Wolf01> ok, the news post has been written, now release the new RC
19:05:47 <V453000> I have no idea what string codes are required frosch123
19:06:02 <frosch123> V453000: compare with firs :)
19:06:22 <V453000> frosch123: firs is unreadable
19:06:59 <frosch123> each cargo has a _NAME, _UNIT, _CID string
19:07:16 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: It is "git clean -d -x" (maybe without -d and/or -x if you want to keep something) in case you are still wondering.
19:07:19 <frosch123> the _UNIT need the right {bla} in front of them
19:07:32 <V453000> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh
19:08:44 <V453000> STR_cargo_3B__type_name: oil STR_cargo_3B__unit_name: {VOLUME} STR_cargo_3B__units_of_cargo: {VOLUME} of oil STR_cargo_3B__items_of_cargo: {VOLUME} of oil STR_cargo_3B__abbreviation: {TINYFONT}OL
19:10:19 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: thanks.
19:10:30 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: i'll probably forget that until the next time i need it :p
19:11:14 <michi_cc> And that with a command that is even named for exactly what it does ;)
19:11:57 <frosch123> V453000: all your strings have blanks in front
19:12:25 <frosch123> put the ":" right in front of the text
19:12:31 <frosch123> maybe you have tabs there or some crap
19:12:46 <frosch123> the "?" is for the "tab"
19:13:42 <V453000> tiny victory but worth celebrating :D
19:15:24 <V453000> why the hell does my oil well accept oil XD
19:15:46 <frosch123> it's a fake oilwell
19:16:04 <V453000> iz real! what do you mean?
19:16:05 <frosch123> they bought an old empty one, then "found" new sources, and sell it expensive again
19:17:54 <andythenorth> FIRS really needs a better way to increase industry production
19:24:16 <frosch123> @topic set 1 1.4.1, 1.4.2-RC1
19:24:16 *** DorpsGek changes topic to "1.4.1, 1.4.2-RC1 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | #openttd.dev for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices"
19:24:33 <frosch123> Wolf01: where's your post? :p
19:25:26 <frosch123> i do not follow you on twitter
19:25:50 <Wolf01> I'm not on twitter, I've a home based webserver
19:26:19 <frosch123> shall i put it into google translator? or should it post the original? :)
19:27:20 <Wolf01> the translation is really bad :P
19:35:12 <andythenorth> going to get beaten by SV :(
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20:20:35 <andythenorth> I need 10k / month MNSP
20:20:39 <andythenorth> and I can only get 5k
20:20:52 <andythenorth> despite building about 40 new forests and connecting them :P
20:23:49 <Taede[L]> maybe deliver goods instead of swamping the sawmill with more ingredients?
20:25:12 <Eddi|zuHause> is there no other source of MNSP?
20:26:29 <andythenorth> not in this economy
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20:38:01 <Eddi|zuHause> always blame the economy
20:38:49 <Eddi|zuHause> next time he'll blame obamacare
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