IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-05-21
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11:24:48 <__ln___> offtopic: can this be correct: "Zugangsgruppen Anzahl" (original text "Access group count")?
11:25:12 <Eddi|zuHause> needs more context
11:25:30 <Eddi|zuHause> at least the grammar is totally off
11:26:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and it's ambiguous whether you count the groups or the members of the group
11:28:27 <Eddi|zuHause> in other topics: why does the wahl-o-mat always tell me things i already know?
11:28:33 <__ln___> the meaning of the english one is "the number of access groups"
11:30:42 <Eddi|zuHause> then i'd suggest "Anzahl {der|an} Zugangsgruppen"
11:31:43 <__ln___> yeah, reversing the word order is what i would have thought
11:34:41 <Eddi|zuHause> other alternative is "Zugangsgruppenanzahl" or possibly "Zugangsgruppen-Anzahl" but that keeps the disambiguity
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15:33:09 <rubenwardy> Is it possible to space trains out equally in 1.4? Like if there are two trains on a track, they should be half the length of the track away from each other, not one behind enougher.
15:35:53 <Pinkbeast> Autoseparation, on the other hand, is still doom.
15:39:22 <Alberth> hmm, why can't I select a preset when saving one?
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15:47:30 <planetmaker> presets are just very crudely handles so far :)
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15:54:43 <rubenwardy> Are there any leaderboards for # of trains, # of road vechiles, etc? Size of company?
15:57:51 <Alberth> it's pretty much meaningless, I think; you can just buy max #vehicles and never use them, for example
15:59:27 <Alberth> also, how do you measure size of a company?
15:59:59 <planetmaker> yeah. Depends on the time you spent playing, on the NewGRFs, on the settings, on the start time...
16:00:03 <Pinkbeast> Oh, no, I see what you're asking.
16:00:37 <Alberth> buy max #aircraft, and fly from one end to the other, and wait long enough for the amount of needed money?
16:00:59 <planetmaker> sounds like a good money-making plan ^
16:01:15 <rubenwardy> number of vechiles that make over 100 of profit?
16:01:28 <Alberth> there are people that play it competitively
16:01:30 <Pinkbeast> % of total cargo generated moved by this company might be a slightly more meaningful metric
16:01:41 <Alberth> usually at a server in MP
16:02:07 <Pinkbeast> Profit over L100 - deliberately overstock a route so each vehicle _just_ exceeds running costs. Quite an artificial behaviour. :-)
16:02:08 <planetmaker> rubenwardy, and then it depends heavily on the map size, too.
16:02:25 <Alberth> Pinkbeast: make an industry set that allows 1 industry at 100% station rate, done
16:02:29 <planetmaker> easy on a 4k ^2 map. Terribly difficult on a 64^2 map
16:02:37 <planetmaker> Alberth, like FIRS?
16:02:52 <Alberth> no 1 industry, not 1 industry type :)
16:03:21 <planetmaker> not sure that's possible. But maybe
16:03:40 <Pinkbeast> Alberth: Aha, you're thinking of an "all games" leaderboard, I'm thinking of meaningful comparisons between companies in the same game. My mistake.
16:04:20 <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, I also understood "all-time leaderboard". Ingame, of course. It exists. And GS can define their own
16:04:24 <Alberth> Pinkbeast: then it's more difficult to win :)
16:04:51 <planetmaker> some communities around certain servers all have their own leaderboards.
16:05:07 <planetmaker> They probably are somewhat comparable as they then compare basically games with the same settings
16:06:23 <planetmaker> I should thank andy for the links to the pre-configured windows VMs. Makes live very easy
16:07:07 <Alberth> it could be fun to set up a game, and let people play for a number of years, and then have them post the results, so you can compare them
16:07:19 <Alberth> planetmaker: :o useful :)
16:07:27 <planetmaker> that actually is fun, Alberth :)
16:07:46 <planetmaker> "we" once did that as a competition... many good results we got for the challenge created
16:09:15 <planetmaker> the VMs are all a windows evaluation license - but who cares for test VMs which you can reset infinitely often to any savepoint you can make? :)
16:09:58 <planetmaker> they actually advise to do that
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16:22:45 <Eddi|zuHause> and when you start them up you fetch patches for hours before you can use it?
16:23:56 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, no, MS supplies them well-patched
16:26:15 <planetmaker> though they target people who use them to test websites with various IE versions
16:26:22 <planetmaker> (and windows versions)
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16:50:38 <peter1139> ,l.po;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;[''''''''''''7'#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~???***8888888kkkooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
16:56:24 <Phreeze> someone vacuumed his keyboard
16:59:20 <rubenwardy> Looks like brainf__k
16:59:28 <rubenwardy> {{{}}}}((({[[[](})}))})))
16:59:51 <rubenwardy> Looks like brainf_ck
17:01:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you meant to say brainfuck
17:02:00 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe your keyboard is broken
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17:45:48 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26603 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2014-05-21 17:45:38 UTC)
17:45:49 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:50 <DorpsGek> dutch - 1 changes by habell
17:45:51 <DorpsGek> korean - 3 changes by telk5093
17:45:52 <DorpsGek> luxembourgish - 76 changes by Phreeze
17:45:53 <DorpsGek> polish - 20 changes by Kilian
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18:05:41 <frosch123> any bored translators?
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18:06:32 <planetmaker> Phreeze, was a bored translator yesterday
18:07:09 <Wolf01> I'm bored, but not a translator
18:07:28 <planetmaker> sign-up now and become a bored translator :D
18:07:36 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26604 /trunk/src (3 files in 3 dirs) (2014-05-21 18:07:30 UTC)
18:07:37 <DorpsGek> -Add: Most of the mapgen settings to advances settings window.
18:09:10 <frosch123> it's not as big as it sounds
18:09:58 <frosch123> but 16 new strings, and 1 for validation
18:17:30 <peter1139> Soon... remove uncommonly used advanced mapgen settings...
18:18:20 <frosch123> nah, i already did that
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18:18:34 <andythenorth> what was it though?
18:19:56 <frosch123> paid by lines of code?
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18:23:49 <frosch123> LordAro: what's that? why is there a .exe in the repository?
18:24:12 <LordAro> reverse engineering the binary
18:24:14 <frosch123> you got compettion?
18:25:08 <andythenorth> I need a faster one
18:25:28 <andythenorth> ha ha @ frosch123
18:25:37 <andythenorth> finally the advanced settings are getting good :)
18:26:01 <andythenorth> just because it’s such an improvement :)
18:26:17 <andythenorth> should I draw us some not-quite-very-good icons for each section?
18:26:32 <andythenorth> then we could do one of those big icon-driven preference panels
18:27:14 <andythenorth> I haven’t compiled for a while, so some of this might not be new
18:27:53 <planetmaker> o/ andythenorth :)
18:28:08 <planetmaker> thanks again for the hint to the pre-fab VMs
18:28:23 <andythenorth> MS doing something really useful for once
18:30:55 <planetmaker> andythenorth, what we (IMHO) need is an idea how to better streamline the workflow for new map generation
18:31:02 <andythenorth> we had some before
18:31:04 <andythenorth> there were pictures
18:31:10 <planetmaker> so that I don't have to click every frigging button in the main menu. yeah...
18:31:29 <planetmaker> but none of that was really satisfactory so far. afair
18:32:09 <planetmaker> we had there a tab-like thingy
18:32:22 <planetmaker> but we stopped when it came to integration of newgrfs + settings
18:32:45 <planetmaker> just opening those as sub-windows might work though. Even when it doesn't look genious
18:32:59 <frosch123> well, back then there were 5 settings windows, with a bit of luck we can get to 3 :)
18:33:39 <planetmaker> I can give you a bookmark: /home/planetmaker/brain/memory/feeble/newgui :P
18:35:00 <andythenorth> there was some world gen stuff somewhere too
18:35:06 <frosch123> planetmaker: there are screenshots on the wiki
18:36:16 <andythenorth> but design is iterative
18:36:22 <andythenorth> tweak a bit, tweak a bit more
18:36:36 <frosch123> it puts "original"/"tgp" toplevel, while it is no rather getting hidden :p
18:37:42 <planetmaker> looks like disgusting work
18:38:02 <andythenorth> there is some rework idea in the forums somewhere, but I thought it was ‘meh'
18:38:43 <frosch123> well, removing elements from the windows may make redesigning easier :p
18:38:51 <andythenorth> removing is best
18:38:54 <frosch123> many popular software has done that for touchscreens
18:39:00 <andythenorth> but first you have to have too much
18:39:05 <andythenorth> otherwise it’s not clear what to remove
18:40:09 <planetmaker> even includes place names
18:40:28 <andythenorth> overwhelming number of options for a single form
18:41:16 <frosch123> maybe we should only have the advanced settings window
18:41:24 <planetmaker> well, some can now just go to adv. only
18:41:26 <frosch123> and then drag&drop support to design your own windows :p
18:41:29 <andythenorth> frosch123: worth considering :P
18:41:41 <frosch123> "new settings window" -> "drop settings"
18:42:24 <andythenorth> choice of which generator is bollocks, not needed
18:42:36 <planetmaker> Though I think the flow is visible in that window.
18:42:46 <andythenorth> variety distribution is nonsense, it apparently doesn’t do what it says - iirc what peter1139 thought about it :P
18:42:49 <planetmaker> We can also cut away on the edges (freeform default)
18:42:53 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I am being over-harsh :)
18:43:14 <andythenorth> easier to kick gui design hard than regret after the implementation work
18:43:17 <frosch123> freeform edges are one of the hardest to add to adv. settings window :p
18:43:53 <andythenorth> tree algo should not be a map gen choice
18:44:01 <planetmaker> size, terrain type, smoothness, sea, rivers, towns, trees, industries, town names, snow line
18:44:10 <planetmaker> and date and climate
18:44:19 <frosch123> andythenorth: current plan is to add a "advanced button" to the mapgen window, and then open the normal adv. settings window
18:44:26 <andythenorth> is smoothness much of an anything?
18:44:30 <frosch123> i.e. no different mapgen windows with few or many settings
18:44:36 <andythenorth> frosch123: that is a good plan
18:44:41 <planetmaker> and adv. settings, newgrfs, scripts buttons
18:44:50 <andythenorth> or a linked terrain parameters (modal) window
18:45:10 <frosch123> andythenorth: i would like to have all settings that actually affect the map shape to be in that window, since then you can properly add a preview at some point
18:45:11 <andythenorth> advanced settings can open over the world gen?
18:45:13 <planetmaker> actually, yes. Just climate might suffice
18:45:40 <andythenorth> here’s _my_ problem with terrain stuff
18:45:50 <andythenorth> (1) I know we’ll get player complaints if we remove stuff, but meh
18:46:05 <frosch123> you will also get complaints from me :p
18:46:16 <andythenorth> (2) I’ve spent ages dicking around with controls and new map, seeing if I can control the map meaningfully. I can't
18:46:21 <frosch123> the weirdest mapgen settings are imho the most interesting ones
18:46:24 <andythenorth> it’s all just fiddly controls on a black box
18:46:39 <andythenorth> you can’t actually make a decent desert or alpine terrain
18:46:43 <frosch123> yes, that's why we need a preview of height and water
18:46:56 <frosch123> directly in the window
18:47:07 <andythenorth> it’s like people who twiddle EQ knobs on audio equipment, with no idea of what it does
18:47:35 <frosch123> rivers+trees+roadside and such can go to advanced though
18:47:41 * andythenorth explored terragenesis once
18:47:55 <andythenorth> I wanted to try and get sub-types of climate
18:48:32 <andythenorth> so alpine mountains, tundra, fjords, prairies, rainforest, desert, etc
18:48:50 <andythenorth> islands, rolling hills
18:49:13 <planetmaker> that requires touching actual map bits
18:49:42 <planetmaker> we should not start that yet here at this stage. It's not bike shedding. But the reverse of it ;)
18:50:16 <planetmaker> designing the nuclear heating for the bike shed :P
18:50:33 <frosch123> andythenorth: at least there is now a description in adv. settings what smoothness and variety dist actually do :p
18:51:27 <frosch123> unless stuff to read is a bad feature
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19:13:29 <andythenorth> cmd-w and cmd-q are annoyingly easy to mix up :(
19:13:54 <andythenorth> or is that the other one?
19:13:55 <planetmaker> instead of openttd? :P
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19:18:16 <andythenorth> you can probably run openttd in emacs
19:18:28 <andythenorth> from looking at other people’s screens, you can do anything in emacs :P
19:19:51 <Eddi|zuHause> let me see you running windows in emacs :p
19:25:19 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> well, back then there were 5 settings windows, with a bit of luck we can get to 3 :) <-- there's still no way to get to the sound settings from the main menu
19:26:52 <frosch123> you mean the music settings?
19:27:05 <Eddi|zuHause> the jukebox, yes
19:27:59 <frosch123> i wouldn't notice if it went missing :p
19:28:07 <Eddi|zuHause> there were numerous occasions in the last 20 years where i thought "well it's stupid to start a game just to turn off the music"
19:28:37 <frosch123> you can do that from the main menu
19:28:40 <Eddi|zuHause> like every time i start ttdpatch, the *beep* sound is way too loud
19:28:41 <frosch123> "nomusic" is the best set
19:28:48 <frosch123> resp. "-m null" via command line
19:32:14 <andythenorth> bloody crossing bells
19:34:14 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: like most other settings, you likely won't need it if you run from an existing config
19:35:36 <frosch123> no, unlike other settings i cannot remember having opened the music gui ever in the last 15 years, unless when it was discussed here
19:37:18 <planetmaker> no... this can't be true... >:|
19:37:45 <planetmaker> nmlc.exe seems to be created when I installed pillow and ply via pip. But didn't as long as they were installed via easy_install
19:44:12 <planetmaker> but well. Finally success. I can create nml-py3 executables for windows :)
19:44:34 <frosch123> so, easy_install did not turn out to be easy? :p
19:44:48 <planetmaker> it turned out to be a HUGE waste of my time
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19:53:30 <Xaroth|Work> there's a reason why pip is becomming the default in py3k :P
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20:09:10 <andythenorth> “the state of python packaging"
20:09:19 <andythenorth> setuptools is never your freind
20:09:24 <andythenorth> easy_install isn't
20:11:28 <planetmaker> hm, on a very bare windows that nmlc.exe still wants msvcr100.dll. But I guess that's not tragic
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