IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-05-10
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05:33:12 <Flygon> "or when was the last time you saw a horse slip?"
05:33:20 <Flygon> I am so tempted to reply to that
05:33:27 <Flygon> Because I've ridden plenty of horses that've slipped @_@
05:33:33 <Flygon> It's actually very common, especially at higher speeds
05:33:51 <Flygon> That's why most riding arenas try to keep high quality sand
05:34:08 <Flygon> Mud/damp dirt is not very good material for a horse to canter on
05:54:02 <Samu> bug or intended? - I cannot load a savegame from TTDLX on OpenTTD 1.4.0. It still lists the save name with gold color, I can select it, but the details on the right part say Unknown and the Load button is grayed.
06:01:20 <Samu> oops, say information not available, not unknown
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08:05:39 <Samu> i wanted to show Brumi a savegame of an AI from TTDX building a ship, then I found out OpenTTD no longer opens TTDX savegames
08:06:51 <Samu> is there a way to open that save game?
08:12:02 <Taede> did you try fonschinsen's suggestion?
08:13:59 <Samu> Now, where do I find Brumi? :o
08:29:38 <peter1139> TTDLX, TTDX or TTD?
08:29:45 <peter1139> So many different letters for one game.
08:31:33 <Samu> im also working on a save game showing Oil Wells from temperate not expiring
08:34:06 <Alberth> hmm, that's even wrong
08:40:02 <Samu> hmm when buying a competitor in ttdx, I also buy his debt
08:42:22 <Samu> had a loan of 600k, repayed all I could, but can't get back to 600k, only 500k
08:45:17 <V453000> Samu you have too much free time, go draw some newGRF instead? :D
08:47:00 <peter1139> or if you do the sensible thing and only pick the first letter it's TTD...
08:52:25 <Samu> the installer installs in C:\MPS\TTDLX
08:52:43 <Samu> the exe file is TTDX.EXE
08:52:56 <peter1139> I've never installed it :p
08:53:54 <Samu> the batch file is TYCOON.BAT
08:54:18 <Samu> that's what I'm told to type to run the game
08:55:18 <Samu> tycoon.bat is just TTDX.EXE D:\
08:55:56 <Samu> d:\ - the cd-rom drive with tycoon in it, :o
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09:25:53 <Samu> oil wells production goes down on ttdx apparently, but it doesn't die out
09:27:20 <Samu> nevermind, one just died on me
09:27:34 <Samu> the sad truth - I was wrong :(
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09:32:44 <V453000> you win 10 points peter1139
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09:45:07 <andythenorth> who is most wrong? Is there a leaderboard?
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10:12:48 <Eddi|zuHause> <Alberth> TTD(LX?)? <-- should be TTD(L?X)?
10:14:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'll never be anywhere near the top of that
10:21:36 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: annoyingly I have to agree with you
10:21:43 <andythenorth> pride comes before a fall though :P
10:22:44 <andythenorth> WRONG EVERYTHING
10:22:58 <andythenorth> the forum argument is in the wrong thread
10:24:23 <George> nmlc says this is wrong (LOAD_TEMP(town_zone + 2) == 0) - variable parameter must be constant. How to solve this?
10:24:58 <planetmaker> use a constant variable parameter
10:25:10 <planetmaker> town_zone is a variable. Not a constant
10:25:43 <planetmaker> you can only use numbers there. No variables
10:26:49 <peter1139> Use a switch block on town_zone with LOAD_TEMP(...) inside? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
10:27:08 <Alberth> ((town_zone == 0) ? LOAD_TEMP(2) : LOAD_TEMP(3)) == 0 for town_zones 0 and 1
10:27:39 <peter1139> I don't know what values town_zone can have :)
10:27:58 <Alberth> me neither, hence the disclaimer
10:28:40 <Alberth> that's going to be a loooong expression :)
10:29:09 <planetmaker> switch (... town_zone) { ... }
10:29:17 <Eddi|zuHause> George: wasn't there var7F or something?
10:30:17 <andythenorth> yeah, I know, evaluates to numbers
10:30:36 <planetmaker> those are constants, yes :)
10:31:58 <andythenorth> generate the expression :P
10:32:46 <Eddi|zuHause> George: looks like i was thinking of var7B
10:33:11 <Eddi|zuHause> LOAD_TEMP is 7D?
10:33:12 <planetmaker> I pity you for that, andy :(
10:33:49 <planetmaker> there's LOAD_TEMP, STORE_TEMP and for some features LOAD_PERM and STORE_PERM
10:34:41 <Eddi|zuHause> this information is awfully scattered in the specs
10:36:30 <planetmaker> quite. Can you structure it better? Would surely be helpful
10:36:33 <andythenorth> planetmaker: it’s mostly ok :) The procedure is mostly ‘remove things from design until works’
10:36:43 <andythenorth> it’s a variation on ‘delete code’, one of my favourite things to do
10:36:48 * andythenorth is anti-programmer
10:37:19 <Eddi|zuHause> George: this should look something like "[town_zone+2, var7B[...]"
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10:56:25 <Samu> is brumi a user of this channel?
10:56:41 <Samu> where could i find him in a server
10:57:06 <Samu> i have a savegame of an AI using ships on TTDX
10:58:14 <Samu> it's the attached save, you need to read details to load that game, there's a bug in openttd
10:58:48 <Brumi> I know I also had that problem 1.4.0 not loading some old games
10:59:23 <Brumi> oh it's a different problem here
10:59:30 <Brumi> for me it crashed with some games
11:01:12 <Samu> the game started in 1956, it's that special scenario already with AIs on it
11:01:41 <Samu> took about ~25 years to make only 1 ship, it's very rare
11:07:03 <Brumi> (I got some calls incoming)
11:07:30 <Brumi> and if I load up the start of that scenario the ship is not there
11:08:07 <Brumi> did the old AI in openttd have code for building ships?
11:11:49 <Brumi> judging from a comment in ai/default.cpp
11:11:50 <Brumi> Ships are not implemented in this (broken) AI
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11:18:52 <Samu> im trying to see if the AI can build passenger ships or refit cargo ships
11:20:06 <planetmaker> you could read the code?
11:21:01 <Samu> but if you know how to read that, it would be of help
11:21:28 <planetmaker> I've my own things to read, I'm afraid
11:21:43 <Alberth> it's mostly english words, with some math in between, how hard can it be?
11:22:17 <Samu> doesn't it mean reverse engineering TTDX?
11:22:28 <planetmaker> blathijs, heffer, I published OpenGFX 0.5.1 and nml 0.3.1 which should ease your bundling woes a bit. Best used with eachother. For OpenGFX there's no user-visible change, for NML very little
11:23:19 <Samu> do you know what can the AI in TTDX do with ships?
11:23:45 <peter1139> I don't play with TTD's AI, so I don't really care.
11:24:01 <Alberth> I'd be surprised if it could do anything with ships, tbh
11:24:15 <planetmaker> I only played with it a decade ago. And all I recall was that it's not really smart
11:24:18 <Samu> but im trying to figure out if it's only oil
11:24:29 <Samu> or if it can do something more
11:24:46 <Alberth> you can read openttd 0.6.3, it had the original AI
11:25:13 <Brumi> the openttd original AI surely doesn't have ships
11:25:23 <Brumi> just had a look at 0.6.3
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11:32:39 <Samu> while I'm at it, I'm checking if the AI also builds helicopters
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11:43:40 <Samu> minor issue, the loaded TTDX savegame on OpenTTD will use the Original pathfinder for ships. Shouldn't it be YAPF?
11:46:23 <Brumi> for ships the original pathfinder is the default
11:46:28 <Brumi> for performance reasons
11:47:27 <Samu> just checked, default: YAPF (recommended)
11:56:36 <Alberth> perhaps the original path finder handles some things differently than YAPF?
11:56:57 <Alberth> ie a change like that could cause failure of finding a route
11:59:10 <Samu> max bridge length is 16 on ttd, or 16+2 with the header things
12:09:23 <George> Eddi|zuHause: I did this way and it works
12:09:33 <George> ((town_zone == 2) & (LOAD_TEMP(4) == 0)) || ((town_zone == 1) & (LOAD_TEMP(3) == 0)) || ((town_zone == 0) & (LOAD_TEMP(2) == 0))
12:10:08 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the more complicated and possibly slower way
12:10:34 <George> Nad how to acces var 7B in NML?
12:11:47 <Eddi|zuHause> so something like var[0x7B,0,0xFFFFFFFF,0x7D]
12:12:29 <George> I know that. I means there is nothing like STORE_TEMP, LOAD_TEMP, STORE_PERM
12:12:57 <Eddi|zuHause> LOAD_TEMP is var 0x7D
12:13:11 <Eddi|zuHause> STORE_TEMP is var 0x7C
12:13:38 <George> And there is nothing for 7B
12:13:42 <Eddi|zuHause> which is given as the parameter to var 0x7B
12:14:11 <Eddi|zuHause> the "correct" way would be to implement non-const parameter for LOAD_TEMP etc.
12:14:32 <Eddi|zuHause> which may be 10 lines or 100 lines of code
12:17:04 <Samu> brumi, i noticed the AI picks the most costly aircraft, not the one that loads the most cargo, like in SimpleAI
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12:33:58 <Brumi> basically you either pick the largest or the fastest
12:34:24 <Alberth> iirc there were also newgrf flags aimed at the AI
12:35:13 <planetmaker> I think the flags are ignored and not exposed to AIs.
12:35:50 <Samu> the slow aircraft also cost less, I don't know
12:36:24 <Samu> it bought some FFP Darts on small airports when they became available
12:36:26 <Samu> they crashed shortly after
12:38:08 <Samu> AI choices were, in order: bakewell Cotswald LB-3, the one with 30 passengers, not the one with 65
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12:39:00 <Samu> then bakewell luckett LB-8, then Darwin 100, both cost the same, but when Darwin 100 became available, it prefered this one over the LB-8
12:39:41 <Samu> game is still progressing
12:48:50 <Samu> yate haugan is available, it's just been chosen by some AI
12:49:06 <Samu> so, yeah... still picking the most expensive
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13:51:02 <Brumi> Alberth: I am a notepad++ user but I don't speak nml
13:51:22 <Brumi> could you link an nml file to me?
13:52:48 <Taede> dummy_test.nml seems to have the same content as the nml_notepadpp.xml you linked Alberth
13:53:57 <Alberth> <Keywords name="Words1">abs acos alte versus <Keywords name="Words1">CMP LOAD_PERM LOAD_TEMP STORE_PER
13:54:04 <Alberth> ie very slightly different
13:54:20 <Alberth> so a simple file compare fails horribly
13:55:29 <Alberth> the question is if you load the dummy test file, and use nml syntax highlighting, do all names get the same colour?
13:56:03 <Alberth> I know it's not proper nml, but for syntax highlighting that doesn't matter
13:56:20 <Alberth> as notepad++ only looks at words, and not whether it is a sane nml program
13:57:24 <Taede> visual_effect, visual_effect_and_powered (line 17) are blue instead of red
13:58:06 <Brumi> difficulty_level game_mode red instead of green
13:58:17 <Taede> line 21: difficulty_level, game_mode, traffic_side are red instead of
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14:02:40 <Alberth> weird, visual_effect and visual_effect_and_powered are in the same place
14:08:33 <Alberth> but in both files, so apparently, something internal in notepad++ moves the words now
14:08:49 <Alberth> ok, thank you, now to figure out where the words belong :)
14:16:29 <Alberth> Taede: can you judge where the double words belong? I have 4 groups, and my program comes up with the following double entries
14:16:29 <Alberth> 1 vs 2: set(['visual_effect', 'visual_effect_and_powered'])
14:16:29 <Alberth> 2 vs 4: set(['difficulty_level', 'game_mode', 'traffic_side'])
14:16:29 <Alberth> ie exactly what you guys found. The question is now in which group do these names belong? Can you judge that?
14:20:48 <planetmaker> they might even belong in two groups...
14:22:42 <planetmaker> visual_effect_and_powered is both, a property name and a callback name
14:23:05 <planetmaker> as is visual_effect
14:24:30 <planetmaker> game_mode otoh only is a general variable afaik. As are difficulty_level and traffic_side
14:24:48 <planetmaker> so they don't seem overloaded in meaning
14:25:14 <planetmaker> should show like climate, starting_year and openttd_version
14:26:15 <Alberth> traffic_side is in misc_grf_bits
14:27:33 <Alberth> keeping it as-is might be a good idea :)
14:28:06 <Alberth> assuming that notepad++ has internal magic to differentiate between the groups
14:40:57 <planetmaker> why do people keep using the terrible rar format?
14:42:25 <planetmaker> it's one of the worst archive formats. Bad in compression, bad in general support
14:42:49 <Alberth> most people are clueless, and copy what everybody else uses
14:43:09 <pthagnar> what is it optimised for
14:43:26 <planetmaker> money making for the manufacturer
14:50:14 <Samu> comparing refits from OTTD vs TTDX
14:52:56 <Samu> can't refit aircraft to mail in TTDX
14:53:07 <Samu> hmm let me post screenshot
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15:08:48 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> why do people keep using the terrible rar format? <-- we should bring back ARJ!!!
15:10:05 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but what do you mean with "general support"? certainly more people can extract rar than xz
15:10:21 <planetmaker> I just had to install unrar
15:11:04 <Eddi|zuHause> which took you about 5 seconds?
15:11:04 <Samu> rar5 is actually much much faster than 7-zip
15:11:38 <planetmaker> more than 5. Updating yum DB etc... :) But generally, yes
15:11:58 <Samu> i still prefer 7-zip though
15:12:28 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i still don't get your point
15:17:26 <Xaroth|Work> planetmaker: rar is more wide spread than you think :P
15:18:26 <Pinkbeast> I certainly don't understand multi-part rar archives. Weren't those for transfer on floppies originally?
15:19:02 <Taede> or only having to re-download one file if your dialup suddenly disconnected
15:19:11 <Taede> rather than the whole 'huge' archive
15:19:17 <Pinkbeast> Mmm. Another major concern these days. :-)
15:20:24 <Pinkbeast> Worse yet, multipart rar files of compressed video. What, we ask, is the point? :-/
15:21:24 <Taede> cant view this unless you know how to work rar-files
15:21:55 <Pinkbeast> I suppose I can't complain about that given that I appear to pass the test. :-)
15:27:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: i used multipart rar when copying stuff on FAT32 disks, which are limited to 4GB filesize
15:28:17 <Eddi|zuHause> certainly putting multipart rar into torrents is a stupid habit...
15:28:49 <Flygon_> Don't multipart 7zs exist?
15:29:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon_: probably, but i have never seen any
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15:32:20 <Pinkbeast> Eddi|zuHause: Even in the floppy days I just used dd and cat but not everyone could
15:33:14 <Pinkbeast> ... actually, no, I remember using an MSDOS equivalent for DOOM.WAD
15:33:51 <Eddi|zuHause> DOS had backup/restore
15:34:39 <Eddi|zuHause> but you could also "copy" several files together
15:34:54 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure how splitting would have worked there
15:35:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i remember that the first time i had a multipart ARJ, norton commander mangled it, so some files were broken (presumably those on the disk borders)
15:36:49 <Flygon> Was Norton ever actually any GOOD?
15:37:50 <Samu> there's file split on 7-zip
15:38:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: it was fairly handy, until win95 made it basically obsolete
15:43:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: this has nothing to do with "norton security" or whatever they produce nowadays
15:43:59 <Flygon> I forgot they did other tools that actually worked
15:45:13 <Eddi|zuHause> there was also "norton utilities" which included defrag and disk doctor and stuff
15:45:36 <valhallasw> NU still exists, but now as Norton Crapware(TM)
15:46:43 <Eddi|zuHause> they basically all stopped working the instant win95 hit the ground, because they required direct disk access, and were not capable of fat32
15:47:20 <Eddi|zuHause> also, win95 came with similar tools builtin
15:51:56 <Samu> norton antivirus, the early ones
15:59:56 <blathijs> planetmaker: Thanks! I'll do a big update round of the Debian packages tonight (and quickly upload 1.4.0 before 1.4.1 is released ;-p)
16:02:00 <Eddi|zuHause> antivirus (any) is about as effective as the war on drugs
16:03:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and we all know that drugs have been eradicated from the planet and the cia isn't using drugs to fund their black budgets
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16:04:30 <andythenorth> is there actually a reason why config changes aren’t written more frequently?
16:04:45 <andythenorth> e.g. last joined server (because of this stupid thread)
16:05:07 <andythenorth> I appreciate that writing out an unstable config causes a loop of crashing
16:06:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: blasphemy!!
16:07:50 <andythenorth> I accept that the obviously correct solution is to pile on yet more shit to solve the fundamental issue that something isn’t working as expected
16:07:57 <andythenorth> but sometimes I like to propose something wrong
16:08:41 <andythenorth> it certainly makes more sense to add yet more string to deal with the fact that ‘last joined server’ doesn’t survive a crash
16:09:16 <andythenorth> adding more code absolutely never causes new problems, such as new bugs or maintanability problems, or blocking other useful features
16:12:09 <Samu> it wasn't possible to refit to mail, but there was more options
16:14:06 <Eddi|zuHause> oooh a flamewar in the forums...
16:14:12 <Samu> it's 85/4 = round to integer
16:15:06 <Eddi|zuHause> this factor is still in openttd, depending on which callback is used to set capacity
16:15:43 <Samu> the same aircraft on openttd is (85+10)/4 = round up?
16:18:33 <Samu> here's a better example of rounding values
16:19:08 <Samu> it cuts off any decimal, no rounding
16:22:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: the capacity possibly includes passengers and mail?
16:22:43 <Eddi|zuHause> rounding may have been changed to prevent 0
16:25:12 <Samu> no, it only counts passengers when calculating refit
16:29:28 <Samu> a comparable example is the guru x2 helicopter, 55 passengers + 20 mail = 75 capacity for openttd
16:30:57 <Samu> the example used in ttdx was airtaxi a34-1000, with 75 passengers + 10 mail = 75 capacity for ttdx, refits to 18
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17:45:28 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26573 /trunk/src/lang (catalan.txt spanish.txt) (2014-05-10 17:45:19 UTC)
17:45:30 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:31 <DorpsGek> catalan - 17 changes by juanjo
17:45:32 <DorpsGek> lithuanian - 3 changes by
17:45:33 <DorpsGek> spanish - 32 changes by juanjo
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18:20:36 <Samu> hey, the breakdown sound for ship is incorrect
18:22:26 <Samu> it re-uses the train breakdown sound effect in ttdx
18:22:53 <Samu> on ottd it is re-using the road vehicle breakdown
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19:21:44 <alluke> but that stage is epic
19:33:57 <Eddi|zuHause> norway sounds more like the first one i'd actually like
19:35:20 <alluke> how was that teleportation made
19:42:58 <Eddi|zuHause> dubstep solves everything
19:44:40 <Eddi|zuHause> well there's also dubstep solves everything 2 and 3 :)
19:51:13 *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
19:53:09 <__ln___> no it isn't, you heard wrong
19:54:41 <alluke> i wonder what kind of genitals does it have
19:56:42 * andythenorth wonders same about alluke
19:57:08 <alluke> and he/she has bigger beard than me
19:57:44 * LordAro is assuming alluke is drunk
19:57:58 <LordAro> or just trollish/stupid
19:59:25 * andythenorth has been confused for a week or so
19:59:42 <andythenorth> I started thinking of the suggestions forum as ‘things that might actually happen'
20:00:01 *** SkeedR is now known as Guest10138
20:00:47 <andythenorth> has any feature ever escaped from suggestions forum into the actual code?
20:02:24 <Supercheese> Vehicle subgroups?
20:02:30 <Supercheese> they are now a thing
20:02:37 <Supercheese> dunno if that was from suggestions forum though
20:03:23 <Supercheese> " the possibility to create sub-groups within a group"
20:03:58 <DorpsGek> Supercheese: version takes no arguments
20:04:35 <Eddi|zuHause> haha, "highest note ever" :p
20:04:38 <DorpsGek> Supercheese: Commit by peter1138 :: r26450 /trunk/src (11 files in 4 dirs) (2014-04-08 21:09:06 UTC)
20:04:39 <DorpsGek> Supercheese: -Feature: Hierarchical vehicle subgroups.
20:05:31 <Supercheese> what is this, Eurovision or something?
20:07:12 <alluke> sweden sucks but thats not new
20:07:44 <alluke> ok the song is average but the show is boring
20:15:13 <alluke> russias song is above average
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20:22:07 <Samu> lol eurovision, nobody watches that, it's always rigged for the eastwards to win
20:23:24 <alluke> are denmark, norway, or germany east?
20:23:33 <Rubidium> yup, that's definitely true. The last 5 winners were all east of the Netherlands
20:24:33 <Rubidium> or maybe better defined as east of the prime meridian
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21:04:38 <Eddi|zuHause> the german commenter: "they want to kill us" :p
21:04:46 <Eddi|zuHause> when the fireworks went up :p
21:06:08 <Eddi|zuHause> he actually said "oh shit" :p
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21:08:08 <Rubidium> so... which country has to pay for that party next year?
21:08:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that takes another hour?
21:09:23 <Rubidium> congratulations glx ;)
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21:11:06 <glx> and I think NL won't have to pay
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21:33:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm convinced austria is going to win :p
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21:55:55 <Eddi|zuHause> france 0 points so far
21:56:05 <Eddi|zuHause> top very undecided
22:01:06 <Samu> trying to get a list of company names generated by TTDX
22:01:31 <Samu> when its' not the default "town name's transport"
22:01:50 <Samu> or "manager name's transport"
22:03:03 <Eddi|zuHause> my prediction holds so far :p
22:07:27 *** Midnightmyth has joined #openttd
22:20:22 <Eddi|zuHause> germany doesn't even get points from mallorca...
22:25:13 *** Aristide has joined #openttd
22:28:32 <Eddi|zuHause> the commenter is constantly switching between "him" and "her"
22:57:58 <peter1139> Eddi|zuHause, isn't that the point of a transvestite? :p
22:59:55 <planetmaker> Well. One of my students, he was quite a funky. After finishing the degree she works elsewhere
23:00:47 <peter1139> transvestite isn't the same as transsexual
23:01:40 <planetmaker> when I made his aquaintence I wasn't sure as to what category he fell into :)
23:05:11 <peter1139> Turns out the best way of knowing is to ask ;)
23:05:50 <planetmaker> possibly. But that didn't exactly looked appropriate
23:06:41 <planetmaker> you hardly discuss your sexual preferences with your physics teacher ;)
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23:37:01 <Zonta> I'm trying to install OTTD 1.4.0 on a debian wizzy and the only version they have is 1.3.3. When i try to install the .deb with the dpkg it missing lots of denpendancy
23:37:02 <Eddi|zuHause> <alluke> i wonder what kind of genitals does it have <-- assuming the beard is naturally grown would be a sure sign, but also consider that the performer's name is "Wurst" ("sausage")
23:50:24 <pthagnar> Eddi|zuHause: also 'conchita'!
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