IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-05-02
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02:29:59 <MaximumTimbo> When does the next game begin? I have the nightly build, but have the most recent....
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06:23:23 <Rubidium> MaximumTimbo: which next game? OpenTTD itself does not host game servers, so you got to be a bit more specific
06:26:17 <Rubidium> peter1139: though 2048 is only 1/64th of the theoretical largest possible value to reach
06:27:06 <Rubidium> I'm not sure how the score is calculated, but for that you should be able to determine the maximum value too
06:32:15 <MaximumTimbo> I was talking about the coop server...
06:32:30 <planetmaker> join #openttdcoop
06:32:49 <MaximumTimbo> I thought I was.. I'm sorry
06:34:01 <V453000> just type /join #openttdcoop :)
06:34:22 <planetmaker> hard to tell when next begins... the map looks rather fresh
06:34:56 <supermop> i've never played on the coop server
06:37:18 <V453000> should perhaps try (:
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07:04:47 <peter1139> supermop, it's frustrating; you have to put up with their ugly design decisions ;p
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07:17:36 <V453000> which is actually entirely untrue as the only restriction is to make things work
07:17:43 <V453000> which in fact is very free
07:24:37 <supermop> there should be a regularly held cooperative passenger server
07:25:09 <supermop> with plaers assigned different lines or franchises
07:28:27 <V453000> we do that sometimes too
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08:08:00 <V453000> I hereby declare I am going to havethe most awesome factory yet seen
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09:17:18 <Flygon> __ln___ : The Futurama writers must be having a field day
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11:26:33 <andythenorth> auto-replace appears to check that all refit orders are valid for the target vehicle :D
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12:28:35 <Samu> i found a not*really*a*bug
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12:59:30 <George> How to get the power of the consist on NML?
13:01:07 <George> (power of consist is the power of all engines that are powered on the current rail
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13:04:09 <George> And consist weight is var E8 ?
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13:09:07 <George> and in case SELF instead of PARENT they would store power/weight of the current vehicle?
13:09:46 <peter1139> Actually I have no idea about anything NML related :p
13:12:31 <V453000> parent checks for the first engine in consist
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13:18:47 <Samu> air_drag_coefficient - nice
13:21:24 <Samu> 9.81 m/s is the speed of gravity
13:22:05 <Samu> a tile going up/down is +50/-50
13:22:44 <Samu> how to relate all this with that air drag coefficient?
13:24:14 <Phreeze> why do you all speak of NFO ?
13:24:21 <Phreeze> it's complicated an shit
13:24:31 <Phreeze> if you have a structured language like nml
13:24:54 <Samu> me? I just stumbled upon a link
13:25:17 <Phreeze> no george and peter and those
13:26:19 <George> But there was no answer
13:26:25 <Samu> there is no air_drag_coefficient for aircraft? omg imba
13:26:45 <Phreeze> aircrafts fly in vacuum
13:26:51 <George> Phreeze: you can access vars in NML
13:26:53 <peter1139> 9.81 m/s? You sure about that?
13:27:17 <George> like this var[0xE4, 0, 0xFFFFFFFF]
13:27:19 <Phreeze> that's the speed of sonic
13:27:46 <Samu> it's on the wiki article george linked
13:28:09 <Samu> Fraction of the vehicle weight that is available as tractive effort. Tractive effort (in kN) is calculated as (TE coefficient) * 10 * weight (in tons), with 10 being an approximation of the acceleration of gravity (9.81 m/s). Default value is 0.3.
13:28:22 <Samu> tractive_effort_coefficient
13:29:31 <__ln___> peter1139: 9.81 m/s = 2.7 ft/microfortnight
13:29:44 <__ln___> umm, or 27. whatever.
13:30:13 <Phreeze> unless you build rails out of titan or so
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13:35:44 <__ln___> Samu: btw, over here the acceleration is 9.81 m/s^2, not m/s.
13:39:39 <V453000> you people certainly have nothing to do
13:40:23 <Samu> realistic acceleration for aircraft ploz
13:40:46 <Xaroth|Work> next you'll be asking for savegames in xml format....
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14:14:00 <peter1139> __ln___, that was rather my point, too :-)
14:14:18 <peter1139> Xaroth|Work, I hear JSON is all the rage now.
14:14:21 <peter1139> SylvieLorxu, oh cock
14:14:36 <SylvieLorxu> peter1139: You could still recommend YAML
14:15:17 <SylvieLorxu> Or the OpenTTD save file format, now THAT is obscure
14:16:23 <Xaroth|Work> SylvieLorxu: << you; the joke =====================>>
14:16:43 <Xaroth|Work> peter1139: do you have a patch for it perchance?
14:16:47 <SylvieLorxu> Xaroth|Work: That's the first time something does not fly over my head
14:17:17 <SylvieLorxu> And I should maybe have read the whole conversation
14:17:38 <Samu> hmm, question. I have a road vehicle going through some town with random bridges, but the vehicle is deciding to go through the wood bridge and not the faster one.
14:17:54 <Samu> the faster one, not only is faster, but it's also the shortest way
14:18:05 <Samu> is this the work of the path ai?
14:18:14 <Samu> very strange it would do this
14:18:44 <Xaroth|Work> quick, kill it with fire before they want to start a union
14:19:05 <Samu> let me provide a save game
14:21:46 <Samu> look at rentfield and the blue trucks
14:21:54 <Samu> especially those going north
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14:37:35 <Samu> got a funny suggestion for airport builds toolbar
14:37:53 <Samu> make it like trains, to separate the different airport types
14:38:43 <Samu> railway, electrified railway, monorail, maglev -> small airports, large airports, hub airports, helicopter pads
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14:40:55 <Samu> the current airport tools are too clumped imo
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15:21:25 <Phreeze> non_refittable_cargo_classes: bitmask(OLSD,SGCN);
15:21:29 <Phreeze> still dont get it how to define that
15:21:46 <Phreeze> this doesn't work as OLSD and SGCN are "new" cargoes, higher than 31
15:21:52 <Phreeze> a list doesnt work either...
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15:27:45 <andythenorth> I predict that before the game finally dies, someone will cave in and add a ‘load x% order’
15:28:09 <andythenorth> possibly by removing ‘full load’ and defaulting to ‘load 100%’ with the option to adjust
15:28:25 * andythenorth wonders when the last game of openttd will be played
15:28:31 <andythenorth> it could be a frighteningly long time
15:28:35 <andythenorth> assuming no civilisational event
15:29:09 <Phreeze> [17:21:25] <Phreeze> non_refittable_cargo_classes: bitmask(OLSD,SGCN);
15:29:10 <Phreeze> [17:21:30] <Phreeze> still dont get it how to define that
15:29:10 <Phreeze> [17:21:47] <Phreeze> this doesn't work as OLSD and SGCN are "new" cargoes, higher than 31
15:29:10 <Phreeze> [17:21:53] <Phreeze> a list doesnt work either...
15:29:33 <andythenorth> why are you defining non-refittable cargo classes?
15:29:41 <andythenorth> and why are you giving it cargo labels?
15:29:47 <andythenorth> (1) don’t use that property, it’s a mistake
15:29:56 <andythenorth> and the people who argue it’s not a mistake are mistaken
15:30:07 <andythenorth> (2) don’t give labels to properties expecting classes
15:30:32 <Phreeze> i dont know why there are [17:21:25] <Phreeze> non_refittable_cargo_classes: bitmask(OLSD,SGCN);
15:30:32 <Phreeze> [17:21:30] <Phreeze> still dont get it how to define that
15:30:32 <Phreeze> [17:21:47] <Phreeze> this doesn't work as OLSD and SGCN are "new" cargoes, higher than 31
15:30:32 <Phreeze> [17:21:53] <Phreeze> a list doesnt work either...
15:30:44 <Phreeze> cargo_allow_refit cargo_disallow_refit
15:30:49 <Phreeze> should i use those 2 instead ?
15:30:52 <Phreeze> why do the other exist ?
15:31:51 <Phreeze> can use a cargoclass with cargo_allow_refit ?? or do i always have to add a huge list ?
15:32:46 <andythenorth> you should specify refittable classes to suit your vehicle
15:32:49 <Phreeze> anyway... will mod this later, walking the dogs now
15:32:56 <andythenorth> don’t use that to try and support specific cargos, it goes wrong
15:33:05 <andythenorth> never use non-refittable classes, it goes wrong
15:33:19 <andythenorth> then use allow / disallow refit for specific labels you know about + care about
15:39:10 * V453000 wonders whether creating a forum thread for YETI has any use
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15:52:13 <andythenorth> you will gather a lot of Valued Opinions
15:56:03 <Samu> kelling 3100 vs CS 4000, there is a huge performance discrepancy when doing realistic vs original acceleration
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15:57:39 <Samu> putting them side by side for comparison
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16:03:43 <Samu> with default realistic settings, 3% steep, 1x weight, the kelling 3100 is slightly faster than CS 4000, almost a tie
16:04:02 <Samu> in the original, kelling 3100 is much worse
16:04:02 <Phreeze> hm andythenorth , other guys here say that a CC_class is cool to support feature cargoes
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16:05:29 <Phreeze> obviously, you are against :D
16:05:41 <Phreeze> the refits are BAD features
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16:06:46 <Phreeze> was me talking, then andy, then i replied..to WHOOOOM ? :D
16:07:09 <andythenorth> this is going oddly
16:07:21 <Samu> lifestock on passanger DMUs :(
16:07:37 <andythenorth> phreeze the interaction between classes and labels is not easy to get right, many have done it wrong
16:07:40 <Phreeze> yeah...DMUs etc should only carry mail at most
16:07:45 <andythenorth> I explained above what you should do though
16:07:57 <Phreeze> i'll just go like they go in ogfx trains
16:08:00 <Samu> i wanted no refits at all for the original trains
16:08:14 <Phreeze> but WHY is there a "disallow" and an "allow" ?
16:08:18 <Samu> they carry what they carry, no refits
16:08:24 <Phreeze> for me, a disallow is an inverted allow
16:08:46 <Samu> if it carries passengers, then it's passengers the only cargo
16:08:47 <Phreeze> if a cargo is not allowed, obviously it is disallowed
16:09:13 <andythenorth> classes first, then labels
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16:11:02 <Phreeze> are labels over classes ?
16:12:16 <andythenorth> first set the general classes for your vehicle
16:12:37 <andythenorth> don’t set the disallowed classes
16:12:59 <andythenorth> then allow / disallow specific cargos, which over-rides any class-based refits you disagree with
16:13:20 <juzza1> andythenorth: what's the logic behind not setting disallowed classes?
16:13:42 <Phreeze> thats what i did now andythenorth, perfect
16:13:51 <Phreeze> juzza1 : whats the logic OF setting ?
16:13:52 <planetmaker> juzza1, it only makes sense for some classes
16:14:07 <Phreeze> either you can refit to coal, or not
16:14:08 <planetmaker> like bulk but not hazardous
16:14:14 <Phreeze> there's no maybe. maybe is for girls only
16:14:41 <planetmaker> juzza1, but generally disallowed classes bring easily more pain than gain
16:15:00 <planetmaker> cargoes can have several, possibly conflicting classes. Thus you would exclude that cargo unnecessarily
16:15:18 <andythenorth> classes are for supporting the unknown future
16:15:28 <planetmaker> thus keep the support level broad ^
16:15:41 <planetmaker> existing cargoes better are supported by their labels
16:15:41 <andythenorth> it is possible to prove algorithmically that your set will always support all cargos in at least one vehicle
16:15:50 <andythenorth> but eh, why bother doing that, just don’t exclude any classes
16:16:07 <Samu> looks like i can't change the weight of trains after buying them, is it a bug?
16:16:13 <Phreeze> problem is you DO NOT exclude: you have to draw a sprite
16:16:17 <Samu> the option is enabled, but it isn't taking effect on the trains
16:16:21 <Phreeze> or use a lame "covered bulk wagon" sprite...
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16:16:41 <andythenorth> Phreeze: or you have to invent a time machine
16:16:53 <planetmaker> Phreeze, you *cannot* draw unknown cargoes. And you *always* need a default sprite, if you go via cargo classes
16:17:08 * andythenorth draws unknown cargos all the time
16:17:14 <andythenorth> all you need is a lack of talent
16:17:15 <planetmaker> you need a default cargo sprite anyway
16:17:23 <planetmaker> haha, andythenorth :)
16:17:30 <Phreeze> Chuck Norris can draw unknown cargo sprites
16:17:45 <planetmaker> and if you use GPL you can easily 'steal' the cargo sprites from nuts
16:17:49 <andythenorth> Chuck Norris wouldn’t bother
16:18:00 <Phreeze> default is coal ^^ so if it doesnt look black, its ...err...buggy
16:18:49 <planetmaker> thus support all *known* cargoes with proper sprites. And do not bother about what you cannot know
16:18:50 * Phreeze 's going to draw covered hopper...
16:19:44 <Samu> my question: simulated train weight on settings isn't taking effect on the current game, is it supposed to be that way? a bug? I'm doing it wrong?
16:20:05 <Samu> it still says x3 on train information, but it's not simulating it
16:20:27 <planetmaker> juzza1, who reads specs? :D
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16:23:04 <Samu> wagon and engine weigth isn't simulated, only the cargo weigth
16:23:22 <andythenorth> no, it’s the freight weight multiplier
16:23:28 <andythenorth> it multiplies weight of freight
16:24:43 <Samu> what's a freight weight? isn't it the entire train?
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16:29:38 <Samu> this means, on an empty train, going on a straight line with no hills, neither weight multiplier nor steepness make any difference :(
16:34:20 <andythenorth> do they need to?
16:34:24 <andythenorth> is it really a useful goal?
16:35:26 <Samu> i expected some difference, then i started to watch two openttds side by side with different weights were behaving the same
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17:01:24 <Alberth> what happened? such few posts at the forum
17:09:02 <Samu> ticks are a much better measure unit to compare realistic vs original
17:10:34 <Alberth> always fun when people think OpenTTD is related to reality :p
17:11:18 <Samu> time for me to create some statistics spreadsheet on excel
17:12:10 <NGC982> Alberth: Is that not partly the goal of playing it?
17:12:27 <NGC982> I mean, there must be a reason for it not to contain Tron bikes by default.
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17:13:11 <Alberth> lousy artists probably :p I am still waiting for the black/white version of OpenTTD, just like Simutrans
17:13:25 * NGC982 still wants that Tron theme.
17:13:47 <V453000> Alberth: you will shit bricks when you see YETI :P
17:16:25 <NGC982> That looks very interesting.
17:19:06 <Alberth> V453000: I laughed my socks off with that guy that was shocked to find your NUTS being unrealistic, even after you gave him the meaning of the word :)
17:19:50 <Alberth> they have a pak with that so you can play simutrans in that style :)
17:20:05 <V453000> idiots will stay idiots
17:20:13 <V453000> "omg it isnt realistic"
17:20:24 <V453000> is exactly the kind of Valued Opinions
17:21:43 <V453000> I am considering to make a Make the Most BAD POST Thread
17:22:16 <V453000> OR I might as well take a shit on the forum with yeti entirely
17:22:22 <Alberth> good off-topic topic :p
17:22:24 <V453000> not like NUTS found any use on the forums
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17:23:18 <theholyduck> i dont like forums
17:23:54 <Alberth> farm looks too normal, perhaps have the people live outside, and the animals inside?
17:24:37 <V453000> no but dont you worry, I have some extreme wtf for the farm
17:24:42 <V453000> this is just the inactive state
17:24:54 <V453000> wait for active - producing - state
17:24:59 <V453000> with animals -and stuff-
17:25:13 <V453000> going to be majorly awesome
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17:26:13 <Alberth> your yeti scheme has a touch of monty python or inspector gadget :)
17:27:26 <Alberth> :o you're going to have stuff and things too?
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17:40:20 <Samu> are ticks in timetable rounded to a day-tick?
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17:45:37 <Samu> it's multiples of 74! :(
17:45:42 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26553 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2014-05-02 17:45:31 UTC)
17:45:43 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:44 <DorpsGek> croatian - 5 changes by VoyagerOne
17:45:45 <DorpsGek> dutch - 50 changes by habell
17:45:46 <DorpsGek> norwegian_bokmal - 16 changes by cuthbert
17:45:47 <DorpsGek> russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:45:48 <DorpsGek> slovak - 18 changes by Milsa
17:47:44 <V453000> Alberth: stuff and things? :D
17:48:47 <JoeBrown> Hello, I am trying to change grass tiles to desert in a tropical map
17:49:59 <Brumi> there's a button for that on the landscaping toolbar
17:50:55 <JoeBrown> I cannot find that toolbar. Google seems to refer to it often, but I only have Land Generation tool bar in landscaping
17:51:31 <Brumi> yes it's called land generation toolbar
17:51:39 <Brumi> right to the zooming buttons
17:52:07 <Brumi> and within the land generation toolbar the second button from the right is the desert conversion tool
17:52:52 <JoeBrown> ah, ffs, why is it lighthouse icon T_T
17:53:17 <Brumi> maybe you're using some newGRFs?
17:53:31 <JoeBrown> found it thankyou, it seems to be a weird icon
17:53:46 <JoeBrown> Not sure, I think I have everything turned off, but I found the button :)
17:53:58 <Brumi> hmm for me it's not a lighthouse
17:55:33 <juzza1> JoeBrown: do you have opengfx biggui activated?
17:55:59 <juzza1> It doesnt seem to have that icon, so it uses the lighthouse one
17:56:56 <JoeBrown> There are no mods active under NewGRF Settings menu, but that name does ring a bell
17:57:50 <juzza1> you might have it in [newgrf-static] section of openttd.cfg
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18:05:16 <andythenorth> suggestions forum lacks things to rant about :P
18:12:56 <Samu> i had a nice suggestion today, it got lost somewhere in the chat
18:14:35 <Samu> got a funny suggestion for airport builds toolbar
18:14:51 <Samu> make it like trains, to separate the different airport types
18:14:59 <Samu> railway, electrified railway, monorail, maglev -> small airports, large airports, hub airports, helicopter pads
18:15:23 <andythenorth> probably won’t get done
18:15:29 <andythenorth> blocks New Airports
18:15:30 * Alberth ponders about towels and needful things as cargoes for towns
18:15:34 <andythenorth> which won’t get done either
18:15:41 <andythenorth> Alberth: towels and babelfish?
18:16:00 <andythenorth> and paranoid androids?
18:18:12 <Alberth> andy, not sure, the new airports in the form of building on tiles could be feasible too
18:18:45 <andythenorth> they wouldn’t be grouped by those groupings though?
18:19:00 <andythenorth> oic. I was thinking hitchhikers
18:19:21 <Alberth> towels are hitchhiker indeed
18:20:46 <andythenorth> frosch123: your bloody GS is going to beat me :(
18:21:32 <frosch123> do you have an usb beating stick?
18:21:44 <frosch123> we could add support for such devices
18:22:46 <Alberth> grouping of airports would become somewhat meaningless, probably
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18:23:21 <Alberth> although for hysteric raisins, we'll keep the currently existing airports too, I guess
18:23:36 <frosch123> or convert them on saveload :)
18:23:47 <JoeBrown> What are the requirements for a small town to turn to a city? Does it work with gloabl population or will it always grow to a city?
18:23:54 <frosch123> i kind of doubt anyone would want to use them
18:24:18 <frosch123> well, only considering reasonable opinions ofc..
18:27:19 <andythenorth> new airports is such a myth :)
18:34:48 <andythenorth> maybe I should use the capacity parameter :P
18:36:03 <NGC982> Um, i cannot seem to find any japanese industry station set in the online content.
18:36:51 <frosch123> "Japanese Stations 3.0" 27062 downloads, grfid 45530500
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18:43:16 <Samu> i should have known beforehand that 1 day is really multiples of 74 ticks in timetable... :(
18:43:38 <Samu> i switched to ticks for better refinement... and then... :(
18:44:34 <frosch123> autofill uses multiples of 74, you an adjust to any number
18:44:42 <NGC982> frosch123: That does not contain any industrial platforms.
18:45:16 <Samu> I was counting on autofill for precise measurement
18:45:48 <Samu> guess I'll convert my results to days now
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19:16:46 <Samu> the bar is filled up with the total number of days it took traveling
19:16:55 <NGC982> When running more than one instance of openttd.exe in Windows 8, it divides each of them into a single CPU core.
19:17:00 <Samu> using each acceleration modes
19:17:05 <NGC982> Is that OpenTTD och Windows related?
19:19:05 <Samu> a larger area for a color fraction in the bar means that it took longer time traveling than a shorter bar
19:20:40 <andythenorth> frosch123: beat it :D
19:20:50 <andythenorth> took 86 years and 3 months out of 100
19:22:43 <Samu> my research concludes that realistic with a weigth x3 is the equivalent to original for early game engines, while at the very late game engines, the situation reverses, original becomes faster than realistic even with a x1 weigth
19:23:02 <Samu> this graph example is only for travelling in a straight line with no hills whatsoever
19:25:09 <frosch123> the biggest difference is in the handling of hills and valleys
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19:39:30 <Samu> oops, train size is number of wagons, a damn typo
19:42:01 <Samu> so, no Millenium example
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19:52:17 <Samu> I'm gonna pick a real-game savegame example to test turns and cliffs
19:56:46 <frosch123> i like the term "real-game" :)
19:57:42 <JoeBrown> Is it possible to change a square in middle of map to water?
20:01:10 <frosch123> it wouldn't surprise me if it's not
20:04:28 <frosch123> JoeBrown: actually, you can
20:04:58 <JoeBrown> Its not expanding though ?
20:05:04 <JoeBrown> Ah wait it is, thanks
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20:12:34 <DanMacK> damn I didnt know that lol
20:17:01 <frosch123> we are talking about scenedit, not in-game :)
20:19:04 * andythenorth would quite like water
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21:20:21 <Samu> 3% steepness with x3 weigth results in 24 days travel, but 10% steepness with the same x3 weigth results in 23 days, is something wrong with this results?
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21:55:53 <Samu> can you create the button that maintains a window open when I press Delete key for Advanced Settings?
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22:30:18 <Eddi|zuHause> why would you want that?
22:30:37 <Eddi|zuHause> settings shouldn't be anything you constantly change
22:33:52 <Samu> testing different steepness right now all the time, it would be usfeul at times
22:35:27 <Samu> what version should I have? I thought it was the latest
22:36:24 <Eddi|zuHause> that is not a newgrf
22:37:28 <Samu> there's no newgrf active at all
22:38:17 <Samu> there is an AI script running, that's just it
22:40:26 <Eddi|zuHause> then tell the opengfx people, but likely there is no ground type difference for a baseset
22:41:08 <Eddi|zuHause> by "tell XYZ" i mean "post to their forum thread", of course. or their bug tracker
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23:14:00 <Samu> woah, steepness can be bad ass
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continue to next day ⏵
