IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-05-01
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06:38:19 <V453000> I am seriously starting to wonder about size if I want to animate every industry tile with 250 frames
06:38:30 <V453000> size as in total newgrf size
06:43:14 <Supercheese> As a wise alien once said: Size matters not.
06:43:25 <V453000> 16 industries, 16 tiles each, 256 frames per animation? would be 65536 sprites (plus 3x16x16 static ones for inactive state and 2 construction stages?), 66304 where I expect maximum of 1 mb per sprite
06:44:31 <V453000> the 1 mb per sprite might be underestimated, too
06:46:28 <V453000> hm somehow 1/16th sprite seems to have only HALF size when compared to the full 16-tile sprite
06:46:50 <V453000> perhaps making the first corner sprite large as hell would be good
06:48:25 <V453000> well, a thing to consider later, models first
06:50:29 <V453000> for some reason manual png save saves it as 700kb, while automated render makes 137kb? :D
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06:50:33 <V453000> oh different resolution
06:51:59 <V453000> well that still is 6GB :D
06:52:35 <V453000> perhaps I can make most animations shorter
06:53:01 <V453000> but coding it as one sprite would still be awesome (:
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06:53:59 <V453000> now it has 51kb per file
06:54:04 <V453000> well it will work somehow
06:58:24 <Supercheese> I'm sure you can make it work given enough thought and effort
06:58:38 <V453000> which world do you live in
07:00:22 <V453000> I guess most industries dont even need a long animation. But the idea of coding it as 1 large sprite is puzzling me
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07:19:16 <Eddi|zuHause> how do you get 1MB per sprite?
07:21:08 <Eddi|zuHause> and you can have child sprites for the animated parts
07:22:47 <V453000> idk, I got like max 100kb atm :d
07:23:03 <V453000> anyway, is it possible to have 1 large sprite for 4x4 industri?
07:23:07 <V453000> like coded at the front
07:23:34 <V453000> and have the rest of 4x4 get just empty sprite
07:25:09 <Eddi|zuHause> you get glitches if the sprite extends too far to the left and right
07:25:23 <planetmaker> @calc 64*172*4*4*4
07:25:24 <V453000> but glitches with what? the ground?
07:25:41 <planetmaker> so I'd expect even for an over-sized house sprite at most 700kB
07:25:50 <Eddi|zuHause> like it will disappear if you scroll halfway out
07:25:53 <planetmaker> sprites must never be wider than a tile
07:26:50 <planetmaker> cut it in several ones which are drawn on adjacent tiles
07:27:11 <V453000> I do that currently yes, it just has little less-than-a-pixel gaps in between
07:27:27 <Eddi|zuHause> you can have one single image file, but you have to cut it into several sprites in the code
07:27:48 <planetmaker> I'd do like eddi suggest: one file which you cut the sprites from directly in the nml code
07:27:50 <V453000> well sure but that isnt really helping, would have to do too much cutting :P
07:28:15 <V453000> so the code alone can cut sprites
07:28:26 <planetmaker> sure. just define the rectangle which is the sprite
07:28:52 <planetmaker> you only have to make sure that it adds up to a whole ingame. Thus no overlap, but also no gap
07:29:18 <Eddi|zuHause> overlap doesn't hurt
07:29:32 <planetmaker> it's like creating a puzzle by cutting the image
07:29:57 <planetmaker> but cutting it in the image programme is not required
07:30:20 <V453000> that is one less thing to worry about
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09:13:33 <planetmaker> that's a first... no new postings at tt-forums
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10:16:08 <Samu> will it apply to road vehicles realistic acceleration too?
10:28:02 <Samu> :(, but will it apply to road vehicles?
10:28:29 <Samu> is the ton used in the example metric ton or imperial ton?
10:28:44 <Samu> which one the game uses to calculate?
10:29:32 <Xaroth|Work> the difference is 1.6% ...
10:29:36 <Xaroth|Work> I mean.. does that really matter?
10:30:53 <planetmaker> rethoric questions are rethoric, I guess
10:31:09 <Xaroth|Work> it'd be an issue if it was not clear if it were a short or a long ton
10:31:31 <planetmaker> openttd knows them all...
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10:33:53 <Samu> how did you come up with the 35 N constant
10:35:38 <Samu> the force needed to move on superficies
10:36:26 <planetmaker> you can go and simply measure it
10:39:32 <Samu> so it all boils down to tractive effort
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10:39:58 <Samu> were those values on vehicles made up
10:40:26 <Samu> it really feels that vehicles move faster with realistic acceleration than original
10:42:24 <Pinkbeast> Sometimes they do because of the way a slope is essentially a fixed malus to speed in original
10:43:16 <Pinkbeast> ... for example a heavy freight locomotive with a train of empties will be faster up a slope with realistic acceleration, I think
10:43:37 <Samu> were tractive effort values available on original TTD hidden somewhere in the files?
10:44:11 <Pinkbeast> metric vs. imperial ton> "How Steam Locomotives Really Work" dismisses this with the observation that a week's worth of dirt on a locomotive could more than make up the difference. :-)
10:45:02 <Samu> I'm trying to come up with similar settings
10:45:06 <Samu> for realistic acceleration
10:45:18 <Samu> to be comparable with original acceleration
10:46:04 <Samu> realistic still accelerate much faster when starting up from 0 km/h
10:47:12 <Pinkbeast> That does depend on tractive effort (try the UKRS2 4-2-0 Crampton on a hill start, then rearrange all your signal positions so one never starts uphill)
10:47:13 <Samu> then, they reach a cliff and things get more complicated to adjust
10:47:24 <Samu> i can increase a simulated weight
10:52:02 <Samu> reaching hills is where things get complicated to adjust as I was saying. when a train is going up hill and then downhill, and the whole size of it accounts for both up and down tiles, the force nullifies each other, don't know if I'm being clear
10:52:27 <Samu> if it needs 100 to go up, what happens when it starts going down?
10:52:29 <Pinkbeast> Well, that's true in realistic if the train is of uniform density
10:53:15 <Samu> yes, but is it supposed to be like that?
10:54:58 <Samu> how does it work in the game
10:56:29 <Pinkbeast> I think you'd do best to look at the source rather than rely on anyone's half-remembered memory of the original acceleration model, I'm afraid
10:56:33 <planetmaker> they had enough beer, supermop ? :)
10:56:48 <planetmaker> or is there a different scale of success?
10:57:01 <Pinkbeast> I strongly suspect if you get tractive effort low enough to produce original-like acceleration from the flat, vehicles will be nightmarishly slow uphill
10:57:22 <planetmaker> original acceleration makes no use of tractive effort. iirc
10:57:30 <Pinkbeast> planetmaker: Indeed.
10:57:37 <Samu> i am referring to realistic
10:57:57 <supermop> beer nd food planetmaker
10:58:03 <Pinkbeast> But if I understand correctly, Samu is trying to give vehicles stats for realistic acceleration which produce performance similar to original acceleration?
10:58:36 <Samu> exactly, similar, but I know it's not gonna be equal
10:58:37 <planetmaker> sounds nice enough, supermop :)
10:58:49 <Samu> the main problem I have is hills
10:59:07 <Samu> while the train is still taking up both up and down tiles
10:59:29 <Samu> that's the most difficult part to come up with similar settings
10:59:36 <planetmaker> the main problem you have is that you need to understand how TE and power work for vehicles acceleration. And how that is influenced by a slope
10:59:56 <Pinkbeast> Samu: I think (if the density of the train is uniform) then going up-and-down will do very little regardless of vehicle power and TE
11:00:31 <planetmaker> openttd uses the simple physics formula there. With the variables for power, te, slope, air friction coeff., mass etc as given by vehicles and game config
11:00:40 <Samu> so it's a +100 when going up, then -100 when going down? per tile?
11:00:56 <Samu> i'm guiding myself from there
11:01:33 <Pinkbeast> Samu: That 100N is just 1 tonne x (one percent incline) x gravity at 10m/s/s
11:02:05 <Pinkbeast> As in, it's not an arbitary figure in the game, it's the actual force of gravity. So unless someone has ballsed it up, I expect it is the inverse when going downslope
11:03:23 <supermop> hmm could a vehicle with 0 hp accelerate provided it only ever traversed flat and downward slopes?
11:03:46 * planetmaker goes try wasteland2. The OpenTTD wasteland newgrf inspired me to finally redeem my beta access :P
11:04:06 <planetmaker> supermop, on level slope 0hp won't give you acceleration
11:04:37 <planetmaker> obviously downhill you don't need much power to accelerate. You might need a tiny bit to overcome the rolling friction
11:04:53 <planetmaker> depends on steepness and rolling friction coeff
11:05:08 <Pinkbeast> Part of the reason steam locomotives accelerate so fast with realistic acceleration is power ~= grate area, which is fine at sustained speed, but maximum tractive effort at a start is a function of boiler pressure and cylinder dimensions as well as traction
11:05:29 <supermop> hmm seems my dreams of logs on log flumes will be dashed
11:05:31 <planetmaker> and mass on powered axles
11:05:46 <Pinkbeast> planetmaker: Er... that's "traction"
11:06:32 <Samu> air friction coeff. think that's what it's missing
11:07:09 <Pinkbeast> If http://wiki.openttd.org/Tractive_Effort gives a sensible figure for rolling resistance, an unpowered train will accelerate from a stop downgrade even on a 1% slope (but the code might first check vehicle power >0 or something...)
11:08:33 <Samu> the faster it goes, the higher the impact of air friction
11:08:52 <Samu> so, going downhill, train won't retain much of the speed
11:09:24 <Samu> (or i just don't know what I'm talking about and suck at physics)
11:09:45 <planetmaker> F_friction ~ v^2 --> P_friction ~ v^3
11:12:42 <Pinkbeast> But power input from gravity is also proportional to v so the effect in an unpowered descent is less
11:13:48 <planetmaker> power input from gravity? That's independent of v. It's acceleration is constant g * tan alpha
11:14:12 <Pinkbeast> At what rate do you turn potential energy into kinetic energy?
11:14:32 <Pinkbeast> Put another way, the force is constant, but work is force times distance, so if you travel faster, you do more work per unit time.
11:14:50 <Pinkbeast> ... this is why tandems are scary downhill
11:17:08 <peter1139> Anyone done 'realistic' slowing yet? :p
11:17:39 <Pinkbeast> There've been one or two patches with caution aspects on signals...
11:17:42 <peter1139> Also, 'realistic' acceleration for trains, taking account of the fact that they don't actually accelerate as fast as they can't due to passenger discomfort.
11:18:47 <juzza1> is discomfort level in metric or imperial?
11:19:14 <Pinkbeast> Er, not really. The coefficient of friction is low enough that even modern units with all powered axles try and get away as fast as possible.
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11:19:41 <peter1139> But I've played train sims!
11:19:48 <peter1139> And I have to accelerate slowly else I get told off!
11:20:05 <sylvieL> I've played train sims too
11:20:13 <sylvieL> I just accelerated until I crashed
11:20:20 <sylvieL> Found it the most exciting way to play them
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11:20:52 <peter1139> Same with flight sims :D
11:20:55 <supermop> some subway drivers like to take full advantage of their 64 powered axles in new york, and it can be quite a jolt...
11:21:00 <Pinkbeast> That's more down to the next derivative; it's easy to get wheelslip if you slam it straight into the top notch, and also while the pax can easily bear maximum acceleration (about 1/8 g at most) they don't like a sudden transition to it.
11:21:03 <peter1139> And with driving sims, I tend to crash without trying.
11:21:27 <peter1139> Pinkbeast, fine, then I mean rate of acceleration.
11:21:51 <Pinkbeast> Likewise stopping on a rising brake; you can brake heavily, but the jerk if you suddenly go from that to a dead stop is more serious
11:22:06 <Pinkbeast> peter1139: I think you mean the rate of change of acceleration?
11:22:56 <Pinkbeast> And the emergency brake doesn't do _much_ more than a full service application, but it causes more damage because it comes on as quickly as possible
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11:23:23 <peter1139> Anyway, anyone done that for ottd? :P
11:24:48 <Pinkbeast> I figure once you've got caution aspects with PBS reserving multiple segments it should be feasible...
11:27:37 <supermop> plus bug reports from users when a signal changes to red before a junction and their train flys through it as it can't stop in time
11:27:57 <Pinkbeast> Well, that's a bug in the real world. :-)
11:29:08 <supermop> really we need a setting to have drivers occasionally forget to obey a signal
11:29:33 <Samu> that's a nice disaster suggestion
11:29:58 <supermop> the disasters should be opened up to new grf and or GS
11:30:01 <Pinkbeast> supermop: And then you could spend money on AWS
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11:30:27 <Pinkbeast> But already the situation where road vehicles are perfectly safe (except around trains) and railways are quite dangerous is a bit silly
11:30:32 <supermop> and paying class action settlements to families of the passengers
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11:31:37 <supermop> i'd like to see non-disastrous disasters
11:31:50 <Pinkbeast> In the early days AWS availability could be an additional way to differentiate locomotives, more seriously - frex in UK terms the GWR locomotives would always have it
11:35:03 <peter1139> Pinkbeast, pretty sure that would come under BAD FEATURES
11:38:09 <Pinkbeast> peter1139: I think it depends on one's point of view. It seems to me that getting ways to differentiate vehicles that aren't speed, power, capacity, cost is one of the big challenges for larger vehicle sets.
11:38:24 <Pinkbeast> ... it doesn't help that reliability and breakdowns are in such a parlous state
11:38:27 <peter1139> It's not my view at all.
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11:40:05 <Pinkbeast> Well, opinions may vary, but even if you don't feel that way yourself, I'm sure you recognise there are people who would like sets to exist where (say) the Jubilee, Black 5, Castle, King, Hall, er one or two LNER 4-6-0s etc all exist and there are reasons why one might use each one
11:42:15 <supermop> also, for an ideally child-friendly game, why not change the 'bribe' strings to something like 'donation/investment to local institutions' 'massive PR campaign' or even 'lobby local government'
11:42:34 <supermop> don't need to make it explicitly an act of corruption
11:43:19 <supermop> and instead of getting caught, it could be 'grassroots backlash'
11:46:16 <Pinkbeast> If money wasn't irrelevant there could be a non-bribe facility that's less cost-effective but can't lock you out.
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11:47:03 <Pinkbeast> ... I also don't think trains should be having SPAD events and crashing all the time, one or two in an entire game would be enough, but less serious SPAD events could be a source of disruption
11:48:26 <Xaroth|Work> and godzilla should pay regular visits
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12:13:47 <Samu> im listening to modern motion music set
12:14:12 <Samu> there's one or two tracks that are too loud in relation to others
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12:25:13 <Flygon> Pinkbeast: Really depends
12:25:29 <Flygon> If it's pre-1920, and you're using a steam loco set
12:25:35 <Flygon> SPAD is far easier to have happen
12:28:06 <Pinkbeast> Flygon: Oh, indeed. What I'm really saying is in the ideal situation, SPAD events would be significant enough to have an incentive to reduce, but not a constant source of terrible irritation (just how one might like breakdowns to work), such that whether or not to buy locomotives with AWS (or redesign layouts) would be a real choice
12:28:40 <Flygon> Also, having a train stop completely due to breakdown's a bit annoying
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12:28:45 <Pinkbeast> If shunts at low relative speeds were "return to depot" not "train and all contents instantly destroyed" it would help matters
12:29:01 <Flygon> Just because, say, a MTMMTM EMU has one M carriage break down
12:29:10 <Flygon> Doesn't mean the rest of the Ms can't tow it...
12:29:22 <Pinkbeast> Flygon: That's one reason this SPAD thing is a bit far-fetched, it'd be nice to fix breakdowns _first_ and make reliability meaningful
12:29:56 <Pinkbeast> But the canteen closes in 15 minutes so I'm off
12:30:00 <Samu> how can i give feedback about a music set?
12:30:54 <Samu> the song Modern Problems is too loud/pitchy
12:31:35 <Eddi|zuHause> happy "day of the work" (where nobody works) everybody.
12:32:54 <Eddi|zuHause> <Samu> there's one or two tracks that are too loud in relation to others <-- report it at the forum thread
12:33:24 <Samu> oh, the forum, orudge got my account locked
12:33:51 <Eddi|zuHause> that is certainly not my fault
12:35:10 <Samu> can't double click on a song name to start playing it?
12:35:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't used the jukebox in ages
12:35:49 <Eddi|zuHause> double click might have been add/remove
12:36:01 <Eddi|zuHause> like in the newgrf setup
12:36:12 <Samu> It's still named Jazz jukebox, but what im listening is not jazz
12:36:37 <Eddi|zuHause> make a feature request
12:38:36 <Samu> okay, im listening to the whole set first
12:38:56 <Samu> need to point out those few songs I believe aren't volume tuned with the others
12:39:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: keep in mind that the jukebox is older than most music players you have ever used
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12:55:36 <Rubidium> also keep in mind that it's named after the original music that was to be played in there, not some recently created set of music
12:57:24 <Samu> I'm not sure why but the song Hot Pink is tiresome to hear, do you guys tried to listen the whole set?
12:58:01 <Samu> the song is fine, but a bit repetitive
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13:13:32 <Samu> are you guys able to adjust midi volume for an entire song? Like, edit it, increase overall volume and save it again?
13:13:51 <Samu> increase or decrease, depending on needs
13:14:19 <Samu> City of Energy is an example of one that needs the volume up a bit
13:15:04 <Eddi|zuHause> that is certainly an easy task, but you should talk to the person that uploaded it
13:15:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't used a midi editor in ages
13:15:58 <planetmaker> samu, you *asked* for your account being locked
13:16:21 <Eddi|zuHause> also, i have never listened to the alternate music sets
13:16:56 <Eddi|zuHause> and the original music maybe twice in the past 15 years
13:17:52 <Samu> I'm too scared to return and become too negative on the forums again
13:18:00 <Samu> don't know if it's ok to return
13:19:26 <supermop> i liked the tto main menu song
13:20:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i did, too. but the same music over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and ...
13:35:47 <Samu> i've been listening them for a week, i just don't know their names
14:06:17 <Samu> hopefully I could fix the volume issue of the midis, then give them to one who knows how to pack them back into the set
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14:19:54 <frosch123> using an unfamilar vcs can give you so much wtf
14:20:20 <frosch123> (bazaar in this case)
14:22:12 <Xaroth|Work> no, that's just bazaar
14:23:53 <Samu> omg, the program really fixes volume even by channel choice, instrument choice
14:24:03 <Samu> i can pretty much remaster these midis
14:26:20 <Samu> funny thing, some songs aren't named how they're internally
14:27:10 <Samu> Green Hill is not Green Hill
14:27:51 <Samu> Techno1 is Drum1, I guess this is a generic untitled1 name
14:28:04 <Samu> they just let it be named Techno1
14:28:54 <V453000> Samu: do you actually play openttd? because the amount of spam you manage to create is incredible :D
14:29:21 <Samu> i was trying to fix midis now
14:29:44 <V453000> im trying to fix industries now T_T
14:29:56 <frosch123> i am waiting for widelands to compile
14:31:47 <Samu> to the one that's on Motion Modern
14:32:04 <Samu> that one is processed with normalized volume (increased in this case)
14:48:50 <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r26546 /trunk/src (11 files) (2014-05-01 14:48:44 UTC)
14:48:51 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Make order wait_time, travel_time and max_speed private
14:49:22 <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r26547 /trunk/src (9 files in 2 dirs) (2014-05-01 14:49:16 UTC)
14:49:23 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Collect order travel and wait times independent of timetables
14:49:50 <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r26548 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2014-05-01 14:49:44 UTC)
14:49:51 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: move updating of load_unload_ticks out of LoadUnloadVehicle
14:50:58 <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r26549 /trunk/src (8 files in 2 dirs) (2014-05-01 14:50:52 UTC)
14:50:59 <DorpsGek> -Change: better estimation for link capacities during full load
14:53:11 <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r26550 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2014-05-01 14:53:06 UTC)
14:53:12 <DorpsGek> -Change: Show measured order times in timetable GUI
14:55:56 <Samu> about the MIDI Normalizer, the author says: "I hope you enjoy the software. And if you do, just let me know by e-mail, it will keep my "appetite" for developing this software alive."
14:56:17 <Samu> and invite him to OpenTTD, which uses MIDIs
14:56:39 <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r26551 trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp (2014-05-01 14:56:33 UTC)
14:56:40 <DorpsGek> -Fix: document revision number for latest savegame version change
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15:44:08 <Samu> anyone familiar with licenses or copyright? if I alter one of the midis instrument in a channel to another, or even mute it because it's too annoying, and I breaching anything? would you be able to re-pack the altered midis back and apply the same license?
15:44:55 <sylvieL> Samu: What license is it under?
15:45:20 <Pinkbeast> Which Creative Commons license?
15:45:21 <sylvieL> There are about 8 of those
15:45:26 <sylvieL> More precise, please?
15:45:45 <Samu> It is the modern motion music pack, dont really know this legal stuff
15:45:57 <sylvieL> Doesn't it display a full name?
15:46:05 <Pinkbeast> Samu: Well, it will say "CC-by-something" somewhere. What's "Something"?
15:46:10 <sylvieL> Creative Commons-Attribution-blah-blah
15:46:28 <Samu> Attribution-NonCommercial
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15:46:44 <SylvieLorxu> Then you can't release edited versions
15:46:50 <SylvieLorxu> No matter how small the edits
15:47:48 <SylvieLorxu> The NoDerivs is the part that literally says "you can't release edited versions of this"
15:48:09 <SylvieLorxu> In fact, the only thing that license allows is freely share the original, it's the most restrictive Creative Commons license there is :P
15:48:10 <Samu> well, in that case, my work is complete! - no work to be done
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15:48:46 <SylvieLorxu> And this is why I feel NoDerivs (ND) is a stupid thing to use, nobody will be legally able to help you :P
15:49:16 <Pinkbeast> Samu: That said, you _might_ be able to release a patch in a carefully selected format.
15:49:38 <SylvieLorxu> (NonCommercial is also pretty stupid, because Commercial isn't properly defined. If you use it in a game and receive money, even by donations, is that commercial usage?)
15:50:04 <Pinkbeast> Ultimately that's up to the courts
15:50:39 <Alberth> SylvieLorxu: accepting help implies acknowledging you're not the best
15:50:50 <SylvieLorxu> It's a legal uncertainty, which is why I really recommend people to only use Free Culture-licensed works. For Creative Commons, that CC0, CC-BY, CC-BY-SA, no others
15:50:56 <Samu> I dont want to get myself in trouble, better not get involved
15:51:18 <SylvieLorxu> Alberth: Which is a pretty sad attitude :(
15:51:27 <Alberth> Samu: you can talk to the author
15:51:36 <Pinkbeast> legal uncertainty> well, pretty well any word in any license _could_ be subject to the interpretation of the court.
15:51:39 <SylvieLorxu> Nobody can do anything perfect, because nobody knows everything, and it's insane to assume you do
15:51:44 <Alberth> SylvieLorxu: i fully agree :)
15:51:52 <Pinkbeast> The CC license text does actually attempt to define commercial activity.
15:52:30 <SylvieLorxu> Pinkbeast: It attempts to, but leaves a lot unclear. Also, there are licenses that contain zero uncertainty, such as CC0 or WTFPL :P
15:53:12 <Alberth> SylvieLorxu: it's not assuming, it's intentionally ignoring the possibility in many cases, I think
15:53:20 <Pinkbeast> CC0 is uncertain in jurisdictions that don't have a public domain.
15:53:54 <SylvieLorxu> Pinkbeast: No, CC0 EXPLICITLY puts things into the public domain by granting you all rights possible, even if the country does not have a public domain
15:54:05 <Alberth> or even avoiding getting confronted with it
15:54:08 <SylvieLorxu> It removes the uncertainty of "public domain"
15:54:17 <SylvieLorxu> Alberth: Fair enough
15:54:24 <Samu> i did end up fixing one midi, and was about to work on the 2nd one, which is harder, was still learning how to use the editor
15:55:47 <Pinkbeast> Ah, yes, fair enough. I think the angle of attack on CC0 would be the Public License Fallback, section 3.
15:56:02 <SylvieLorxu> Let me re-read that
15:56:53 <Pinkbeast> Giving multiple people a non-exclusive but unconditional right to exercise the Affirmer's copyright...
15:58:30 <Pinkbeast> The angle on WTFPL would be that it is "
15:59:07 <Pinkbeast> "TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR COPYING, DISTRIBUTION AND MODIFICATION", ie does not pertain to attribution, ie I can come back later in places with explicit laws about attribution and sue.
15:59:25 <SylvieLorxu> Hmm, okay, I get your point that there is always some uncertainty
15:59:38 <Pinkbeast> CC0 is much better than I remembered, though.
16:00:38 <SylvieLorxu> Well, interesting discussion, at least, not sure what else to say
16:00:38 <Pinkbeast> I think the real thing is there's always some uncertainty because there's nothing to _stop_ the courts deciding what they like. You can do your best with language, but it's not like programming where you can say you got it right and the compiler was wrong.
16:01:03 <SylvieLorxu> Thanks for the insight
16:01:31 <Pinkbeast> ... and yes, I agree many of the CC licenses are quite annoying, especially NoDerivs :-)
16:02:38 <SylvieLorxu> NoDerivs is really the worst one in my view. I see it used a lot in music, saddens me because I do sometimes hear remixes better than the original, and yeah...
16:02:44 <SylvieLorxu> Those can't legally exist then :(
16:03:42 <Pinkbeast> Aha. I mentioned patches because, having spoken to m'learned friends, it seems unlikely that a patch that includes no material from the original directly would be derivative.
16:04:27 <Pinkbeast> ... this is how "no modified versions" stuff like Pine used to get into Debian, by applying a patch locally and compiling it on the user's machine.
16:05:03 <Samu> I am opening the original, apply some volume changes and save. Some volume changes can be set to 0, essentially I'm muting an instrument totally from the midi
16:05:10 <Pinkbeast> So potentially, convert MIDI to text file, generate patch (in non-context format), distribute patch. Up to the users what they do.
16:05:26 <SylvieLorxu> Fair enough. There are OSI and FSF-approved licenses which only allow patches, and NoDerivs is probably the same
16:05:26 <Samu> you'd need to ship both?
16:05:41 <SylvieLorxu> Samu: Yeah, the original and your change, but NOT a changed original
16:05:58 <SylvieLorxu> You can provide an utility to patch the originals
16:06:05 <SylvieLorxu> But you may not distribute them in a patched way
16:06:14 <SylvieLorxu> And this is all unnecessarily complicated :(
16:06:16 <Pinkbeast> Samu: No, you'd provide them separately with instructions on how to (perhaps a script to automatically) combine them. Tedious, I know.
16:06:51 <Pinkbeast> SylvieLorxu: I remember the extensive discussion in Debian about what patch-only stuff was going to be allowed to meet the DFSG, back when the DFSG was being written. :-/
16:06:51 <Samu> i just started using the program
16:07:07 <SylvieLorxu> You're probably better of asking the original artist to use a more sane license
16:08:09 <Pinkbeast> You might then be able to provide an input file to the program separately.
16:08:46 <SylvieLorxu> Better solution: write your own songs and release them under a cool license like CC0/CC-BY/CC-BY-SA :D
16:08:53 <Samu> also I am basing this volume thing on the default midi device windows provides
16:09:00 <Samu> could end up bad on some other OS
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17:10:35 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone remind me which partition i usually put my root backup on?
17:12:10 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is i got totally mixed up since /dev/mapper/sdXY does not match sdXY
17:12:28 <Phreeze> what the hell is mapper
17:12:50 <Pinkbeast> It's usually where lvm puts logical volumes
17:13:11 <Eddi|zuHause> thing that maps logical or encrypted drives
17:14:01 <Pinkbeast> See also /dev/mdN is made of /dev/sdaM and /dev/sdbM where N !=M
17:14:05 <Eddi|zuHause> but that "/dev/mapper/sdXY" was not changed when i added drives, while the "sdXY" did
17:14:31 <frosch123> just check /proc/partitions
17:14:59 <Pinkbeast> Or blkid, or... but it's annoying when it happens
17:15:03 <frosch123> if that gives you too many candidates... maybe you should try with a new machine :p
17:15:20 <Eddi|zuHause> 8 4 1 sda4 <-- "1 block" doesn't sound right
17:16:11 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: well it currently goes to "sdh"
17:19:26 <Eddi|zuHause> so... now i got 3 partitions with roughly the same size that are candidates...
17:20:12 <Eddi|zuHause> which is which now?`:p
17:22:53 <Pinkbeast> Mount 'em and look? </captain-obvious>
17:23:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "they all look alike"
17:25:43 <frosch123> the number of nested backup folders will be the c14 method of future archaeologists
17:26:10 <frosch123> way more accurate than dates stored in the filesystem themself
17:45:43 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26552 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2014-05-01 17:45:32 UTC)
17:45:44 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:45 <DorpsGek> czech - 14 changes by djst
17:45:46 <DorpsGek> finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
17:45:47 <DorpsGek> italian - 5 changes by lorenzodv
17:45:48 <DorpsGek> brazilian_portuguese - 49 changes by Tucalipe
17:45:49 <DorpsGek> russian - 32 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:47:36 <Phreeze> to prepare for wasteland grf xD
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17:50:50 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yes, my filesystem does look like that :p
17:51:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: that's only going to get worse
17:51:54 <Samu> 2 screenshots were 3 GBs
17:52:12 <Samu> so it's 1,4 GB of downloaded content
17:53:12 <Phreeze> all grfs....i didnt, i did not want some, like grfs that only add 1 feature or 1 plane or so..useless for me
17:53:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i have 130MB in content_download and 250MB in data
17:53:49 <Eddi|zuHause> and 800MB in grf development stuff
17:53:56 <Eddi|zuHause> and 1.1GB in savegames
17:54:26 <Phreeze> 1.1GB savegames O_o i recently deleted all my old savegames
17:55:35 <Eddi|zuHause> well i have 6.6GB in openttd checkouts
17:56:29 <Eddi|zuHause> my miniin checkout is 250MB and my trunk checkout is 800MB
18:00:27 <frosch123> yeah, what would be the point of miniin savegames without minin checkout
18:00:45 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: do you keep patching it, so it compiles?
18:01:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i tried compiling some older things, but i don't think i tried with miniin
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18:05:41 <Samu> why's that aircraft don't depart when they're full loaded of mail?
18:05:42 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, seems i did try to compile and it worked :)
18:06:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: special rule that "full load" always applies to passengers
18:06:43 <Samu> oh, SH '125' goes out nearly empty, only the mail bags
18:07:12 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. "someone" thought that it should only work this way for aircraft
18:08:10 <Samu> if i have a mixed train passengers and some other cargo, will it depart when passengers are loaded?
18:08:18 <Samu> passengers and valuables for example
18:08:30 <Samu> i wanted to focus on valuables
18:09:35 <andythenorth> I love the special rules
18:10:06 <andythenorth> so when can we do consists?
18:10:11 <andythenorth> then we can declare them a BAD FEATURE
18:10:22 * peter1139 declares andythenorth a BAD FEATURE
18:10:37 <Alberth> we didn't implement andy yet :p
18:10:42 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1139: i'm pretty sure i did that already :p
18:11:08 <Samu> train is departing, full loaded passengers, nearly empty valuables, so confusing
18:11:27 <Alberth> "any cargo" really means any cargo :)
18:11:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: only airplanes are special
18:12:17 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i don't see any changes in MiniIN that would indicate a compile fix
18:12:39 * andythenorth is mis-implemented
18:12:43 <Alberth> Samu: even then, aircraft focus on passengers, so it would work the same as your train in this case
18:12:51 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: maybe you are using a old os
18:13:04 <frosch123> but things start to stop compiling when you get never compilers and libraries
18:13:49 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: loads of warnings
18:13:59 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i think it's easier with C instead of C++
18:14:14 <Samu> refiting ratio of aircraft to mail is 1:1, shouldn't it be 1:2?
18:14:52 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: my OS is about 2 years old, i think
18:14:57 <andythenorth> two suggestions, declare them BAD if you must. (1) make a new group from a vehicle window, or from the ‘vehicles sharing this order’ window. (2) make a new group from ‘vehicles using this station’
18:15:18 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: and i definitely changed architectures inbetween ;p
18:15:43 <frosch123> iirc some libpng was some issue somewhen
18:16:06 <andythenorth> groups are super useful, but a faff to add vehicles to
18:16:41 <Samu> is there a quick way to see the sized number of my trains without sending them to depots?
18:17:12 <andythenorth> no, but it would be useful
18:17:20 <andythenorth> it’s an odd omission
18:17:45 <andythenorth> I sometimes have to send trains to depot to understand their length
18:17:56 <Natio> Do you mean how many squares they take up?
18:18:46 <Samu> i have a train sized 10 right now, but i had to send to depot to make sure
18:18:54 <Natio> Well, i usually count with 2 carts per square
18:19:10 <Natio> So if you have 1 locomotive + 9 carts = 5 squares :)
18:19:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i have libpng 1.2.49 and 1.4.11, not sure which one is used
18:20:01 <Alberth> Natio: that only works with default vehicles and some newgrfs. Many newgrfs however use different length wagons and engines
18:20:35 <Natio> Ooh i had no clue. I havent got to toy around with the newgrf sets yet :)
18:20:35 <andythenorth> OS X Mavericks build absolutely chugs in windowed mode
18:20:41 <andythenorth> full screen is fine
18:20:45 <andythenorth> stupid Mavericks something
18:22:00 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: 32bpp?
18:22:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: animated?
18:22:16 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the blitter? Or the use of newgrfs?
18:22:41 <Samu> how do I check if I'm running 32 bpp
18:24:07 <Samu> I like to flip windows with start+tab, but with openttd in full screen it just doesn't work
18:24:19 <Samu> it works fine in window mode
18:24:46 <Eddi|zuHause> dbg: [driver] Successfully loaded blitter '32bpp-anim'
18:27:08 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: make run -d driver=3 -j13 ?
18:27:23 <Samu> it loaded some 8bpp blitter
18:27:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you need special arguments for "make run"
18:28:11 <Eddi|zuHause> something along the lines of "OPENTTD_ARGS=<blah>", but that name is probably wrong
18:28:26 <andythenorth> I’ve omitted run
18:28:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you need to pass this to ./openttd, not to make
18:29:22 <andythenorth> dbg: [driver] Successfully loaded blitter '8bpp-optimized'
18:29:32 <andythenorth> dbg: [driver] Successfully probed blitter '32bpp-anim' is also present
18:29:59 <Samu> how many video drivers should the -h list?
18:30:02 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, "OPENTTD_ARGS" would even have been correct :p
18:30:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: depends on your OS, for me it's "sdl", "dedicated" and "null"
18:30:49 <Samu> win32: Win32 GDI Video Driver , dedicated: Dedicated Video Driver
18:31:17 <Eddi|zuHause> it's for servers
18:31:25 <andythenorth> hmm, how to force 32bpp blitter?
18:31:32 <frosch123> andythenorth: use nightly
18:31:47 <andythenorth> can’t test the cdist patch with that :)
18:31:47 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: -b 32bpp-optimized
18:31:54 <frosch123> nightly force 32bpp on all platforms by default, unless you find the secret config-only setting to enable 8bpp
18:32:10 <frosch123> andythenorth: wasn't that one committed?
18:32:19 <Eddi|zuHause> or: -b 32bpp-anim
18:32:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: you likely don't want to change the video driver anyway
18:33:19 <Samu> im gonna break my system
18:34:01 <andythenorth> is it plausible that 32bpp-anim is more performant that 32bpp-optimized?
18:34:18 <andythenorth> specifically on map scroll
18:34:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there may be all sorts of weird effects. it's apple :p
18:35:25 <andythenorth> hard to measure, but definitely smoother scroll on the 32bpp-anim blitter
18:35:28 <Samu> what about the debug window?
18:35:30 <andythenorth> the 8bpp one is rubbish
18:36:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: -d opens the debug window
18:37:00 <Eddi|zuHause> (unless you "convert" to a console application)
18:37:03 <Samu> yes, i wanted to make sure it's running with the blitter
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18:38:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: well you left out the parameter for -d
18:39:43 <Samu> -b 32bpp-sse4-anim -d driver=3
18:41:45 <Samu> my cpu supports sse4 then?
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18:42:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: was it listed in -h?
18:43:31 <Samu> good job AMD, you support Intel instructions
18:44:27 <TinoDidriksen> They cross-license almost everything.
18:44:39 <TinoDidriksen> Intel's 64bit arch is called AMD64.
18:44:55 <Eddi|zuHause> because IA64 is dead
18:47:33 <Samu> is it possible to run the game in fullscreen (borderless windowed mode)?
18:47:52 <Xaroth|Work> those are two different terms
18:48:01 <frosch123> depends on your os as well
18:48:03 <Xaroth|Work> fullscreen != borderless window
18:48:33 <frosch123> check game options and see what it does
18:48:55 <Samu> it does fullscreen, it seems to be the real fullscreen, not a borderless window occupying the whole screen :(
18:49:22 <Samu> then again, it would only be able to use the desktop res....
18:49:30 <Samu> guess it's a pointless request after all
18:50:50 <Samu> the game is so tiny in 1920x1080
18:51:45 <Samu> "blitter upscaling" - does such term exist?
18:52:11 <Samu> i mean upscale the entire application
18:52:35 <frosch123> you can configure bigger fonts
18:52:38 <Samu> so that toolbars, icons and such are also scale
18:52:40 <frosch123> and you can use bigger gui sprites
18:53:41 <Samu> I can upscale fine from 1280x720 to 1920x1080, the video driver is doing it fine, but that requires fullscreen
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18:54:38 <Samu> in window mode, there's no upscale, it is using the desktop resolution which is already 1920x1080
18:55:11 <Samu> I wanted some way to upscale the entire OpenTTD window in window mode
18:55:16 <Xaroth|Work> as frosch123 said
18:55:25 <Xaroth|Work> zoom + font size adjustment + bigger gui sprites
18:56:01 <Samu> i'm sure it's not that what I'm looking for
18:56:20 <frosch123> but it's what exists :p
18:58:27 <andythenorth> I need much bigger ships :P
18:58:39 <andythenorth> which idiot made this stupid ship set so small?
18:58:56 <frosch123> try redfish, saves you work?
19:03:22 <Samu> that's what is zooming OpenTTD for me
19:03:41 <Samu> it's zooming 1280x720 to fit the whole 1920x1080, I see everything bigger
19:04:32 <Samu> but that's only for full screen :(
19:04:46 <Samu> the lower the resolution I set in-game, the bigger I see
19:06:56 <Samu> if I don't enable image scaling, I get black borders in low resolutions
19:07:10 <Xaroth|Work> we know what you want
19:07:13 <Samu> and the tiny game in the middle
19:07:13 <Xaroth|Work> it's not in openttd
19:07:21 <Xaroth|Work> we gave you the closest possible method
19:07:29 <Xaroth|Work> so you can keep explaining, but the answer won't magically change :|
19:07:59 <Xaroth|Work> no need to be sorry
19:08:08 <Xaroth|Work> just trying to save you wasted energy :)
19:08:37 <frosch123> no need to save wasted energy
19:08:40 <frosch123> we have enough of that
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19:44:28 <andythenorth> “GameScripts wanted, cash paid"
19:45:49 <andythenorth> it should amuse me
19:46:42 <Alberth> hmm, slightly ambiguous requirement :p
19:55:40 <andythenorth> Alberth: what would *you* want in a GS? o_O
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19:56:46 <Alberth> I like nocargoal, except it should do more calculations for me, I miss a prediction for the end result, an I am too lazy to compute it myself
19:57:18 <Alberth> and perhaps it should not stop after 3 goals, but just give me new ones instead
19:58:59 <Alberth> but perhaps they should be more specific
19:59:15 <Alberth> or it will run out of cargos to assign pretty quickly :p
19:59:35 <Alberth> you can only increase demands after that
20:00:45 <Alberth> or require a rate (X tonnes / month coal)
20:03:33 <andythenorth> I am +1 to NCG, but with more cargos, or a difficulty ladder or such
20:07:22 <Superuser> oh you are thinking of a different scoring system?
20:07:37 <Superuser> I see that my complaining has paid off ^^
20:07:54 <frosch123> no, you are behind by 3 years
20:08:09 <andythenorth> what is scoring?
20:08:13 <andythenorth> I don’t understand
20:09:52 <Superuser> is it really such an ignored aspect of the game...?
20:10:09 <Superuser> okay, my bad, perfroamcne rating
20:10:22 <Superuser> that's the official name
20:10:30 <Superuser> it determines your position in the league table
20:10:36 <Superuser> from which the winner of the game is drawn
20:11:11 <Superuser> however, the metrics used for this have serious problems and need a good rethinking, because they do not scale well to the end-game and constrict player choice
20:11:51 <andythenorth> they’ve been around since 1994, perhaps they’re proven?
20:12:11 <andythenorth> 20 years worth of testing
20:12:28 <andythenorth> it’s quite audacious to declare them wrong
20:14:23 <Superuser> :: slams desk :: Call me audacious but :: speedy lines :: the mechanics are faulty!
20:14:47 <Superuser> I may write an extended post about them on the forum, we need to come up with new mechanics
20:15:01 <frosch123> i told you, you are behind by 3 years
20:15:13 <frosch123> if you refust to look up what game scripts are, we can only flame you
20:15:28 <Superuser> you can't just ship a broken game
20:15:43 <Superuser> you should strive to make the default game as good as possible, not rely on people to mod it...
20:15:46 <andythenorth> empirically we can
20:15:54 <Alberth> commercial companies have been doing that forever
20:15:56 <Superuser> makes me think back to unpatched Morrowind
20:16:14 <Superuser> wouldn't you agree that Morrowind without patches was a terrible experience?
20:16:25 <frosch123> let's say, ottd is not for narrowminded people
20:16:36 <Alberth> Superuser: no idea, I never played that
20:16:44 <andythenorth> also there is no way we could change the scoring mechanism
20:16:55 <andythenorth> someone with an elaborate savegame would go nuts on the forum
20:16:59 <andythenorth> or even worse, here :P
20:17:04 <andythenorth> Nothing May Change
20:17:08 <Alberth> nor the can the default game be changed, I think
20:17:45 <Superuser> I bet you I can come up with a better system, in fact I promise you that
20:17:55 <Superuser> you just wait and see :D
20:18:16 <planetmaker> cool. Better system means a person submitting a patch queue and going through review
20:18:19 <Superuser> you will be very impressed and I'll make sure I link you to Superuser's superior competitive OTTD
20:18:26 <Superuser> I may even write a script for it
20:18:32 <andythenorth> no you have to use the version in game, not some mod based on an open architecture
20:18:41 <andythenorth> you can’t rely on people to mod it
20:19:03 <Superuser> surely the current win conditions are implemented as a script right?
20:19:33 <Superuser> that's bad design :(
20:19:34 <andythenorth> Nothing May Change
20:19:42 <andythenorth> Nothing May Change
20:19:59 <Superuser> I take it that's your development philosophy...?
20:20:05 <Alberth> Superuser: in 1994 there were no scripts
20:20:35 <Superuser> I don't know, I think you'll have to cut support for the old TTD at some point if you wish to move the game forward
20:21:01 <Superuser> maintaining compatibility for that whole stack is surely quite taxing
20:21:12 <Superuser> hopefully this will be the first step ^^
20:21:15 <andythenorth> we don’t wish to move the game forward
20:21:19 <Superuser> now I need to take a month or so to think about this
20:21:22 <andythenorth> Nothing May Change
20:21:40 <Superuser> you say that until you see my proposition... that is all :)
20:21:57 <andythenorth> do you have a project manager?
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20:24:52 <andythenorth> it’s very amusing that GS has nothing to do with high score table or the win conditions
20:25:26 <frosch123> noone considered it important enough
20:25:37 <frosch123> why would you bother with highscores if you can work in gameplay?
20:26:24 <Superuser> so different win conditions would be... impossible?
20:26:31 <Superuser> in its current state, at least
20:27:02 <frosch123> @kban Superuser 86400 24 hours for you to look up game scripts
20:27:02 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +b *!~superuser@2a02:e00:fffe:fbee::b5a2:2197
20:27:03 *** Superuser was kicked by DorpsGek (24 hours for you to look up game scripts)
20:28:14 <andythenorth> oh he was such fun too
20:28:21 <andythenorth> I’ll have to go to bed now :(
20:30:37 <andythenorth> frosch123: your GS might beat me again :P
20:30:51 <Alberth> gn andy, and others too
20:32:04 <andythenorth> has nobody made the 2048 GS yet?
20:32:08 <andythenorth> should be easy, no?
20:32:53 <frosch123> everyone wanting that is busy playing 2048
20:32:58 <frosch123> it's an unsolvable problem
20:34:37 <Phreeze> it's like those picture shifting games from the 80s...
20:34:58 <frosch123> isn't the original shifting game from 1925 or something?
20:37:16 <andythenorth> patience is a boring game, but it’s still played a lot
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20:52:50 <Eddi|zuHause> <Samu> is it possible to run the game in fullscreen (borderless windowed mode)? <- on useful OSes you could just right-click the window and say "remove frame"
20:58:31 <Eddi|zuHause> <Phreeze> it's like those picture shifting games from the 80s... <-- i had an interesting shifting game once, it had blocks of 1x1, 1x2, 2x1 and 2x2, and you had to get the 2x2 block from one corner to the opposite one
20:59:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the empty space was 2x1
20:59:58 <frosch123> 4 times 1x1, 4 times 1x2, 1 time 2x1, 1 time 2x2 iirc
21:01:34 <frosch123> anyway there is a whole family of thsoe
21:02:13 <frosch123> "klotski" is even part of standard kde4
21:02:25 <frosch123> with various dozen of those
21:02:50 <frosch123> oh, it's part of gnome games
21:02:56 <frosch123> why does it start with k then?
21:03:38 <peter1139> Because that's the name of the game?
21:08:09 <Samu> benfica > juventus, 2-1 aggregate
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21:35:06 <Eddi|zuHause> the funniest thing about 2048 is how it says "you won" and then the actual game starts :)
21:36:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never seen that part of openttd
22:18:23 <peter1139> I guess Eddi|zuHause manages, with German precision, to reach 2048 every single time with no effort.
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22:18:51 <Eddi|zuHause> almost every time, at least
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23:10:49 <Aristide> Navitia is open source now x)
23:11:04 <Aristide> (Navitia is used on TCL website for calculate path)
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continue to next day ⏵
