IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-04-22
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07:46:03 <peter1139> Top o' the mornin' to ya.
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12:19:40 <Snail> what is the address to report a grfcodec bug?
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12:22:09 <planetmaker> dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/grfcodec
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12:39:39 <Snail> just reported my issue :p
12:39:55 <Snail> I set it a higher priority coz I can’t code without this...
12:40:35 <planetmaker> the test might be easier if you supplied the required images, too
12:40:51 <planetmaker> so that one can actually build the nfo
12:41:50 <Snail> I supplied a RAR file with nfo and png
12:42:17 <planetmaker> just attach each file separately. easier also than downloading zip archives :D
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13:48:49 <Man> i've got a problem downloading newest ottd
13:49:07 <planetmaker> what exactly is the issue?
13:49:50 <Man> it says the file ain`t there
13:50:07 <Man> Not Found The requested URL /binaries/releases/1.4.0/openttd-1.4.0-windows-win64.zip was not found on this server.
13:53:53 <planetmaker> we use several mirrors, so it might be the one near you which failed to sync properly
14:08:06 <Man> could you give me another then please?
14:08:48 <planetmaker> what is the URL you try to retrieve the file from?
14:09:17 <Man> hu.binaries.openttd.org/binaries/releases/1.4.0/openttd-1.4.0-windows-win64.zip
14:21:07 <mg_> i tried downloading about an hour ago, and .hu mirror wasn't wrking
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17:34:03 <fairc> hey, what can I do if a town doesn't allow me to demolish a building/road?
17:35:51 <planetmaker> plant trees and/or wait
17:36:07 <planetmaker> better build a good transport service next time before you try to do that
17:36:11 <Phreeze> the trees make them happy like the boss of greenpeace
17:36:34 <Phreeze> @pm: but towns are sometimes in the mountains, and you have to level 6 squares first...
17:37:11 <fairc> I can't find bribe in the menu of the local auth, or where is it?
17:37:30 <mg_> maybe you dont have enough money
17:38:42 <mg_> btw. has anyone ever been caught for bribing local authorities? ;)
17:40:09 <Phreeze> you can even edit that in the options, if youre caught more often or less often
17:45:17 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26481 trunk/src/lang/polish.txt (2014-04-22 17:45:10 UTC)
17:45:18 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:19 <DorpsGek> polish - 1 changes by wojteks86
17:56:42 <fonsinchen> Maybe I should alter the effect of waiting cargo in stations in order to give an incentive to connect link graphs. The more supply you have in the same link graph the more cargo you'd be able to store at a station without hurting your rating.
17:57:26 <fonsinchen> Easy to do and clearly an incentive. But it again worsen the overcrowding problem.
17:57:50 <fonsinchen> ^... could worsen ...
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18:09:24 <fonsinchen> andythenorth: Any conclusions about the waybill mode?
18:09:41 <andythenorth> I haven’t tried anything complicated
18:09:47 <andythenorth> I’m playing a relatively small map
18:10:01 <andythenorth> for this kind of game It Just Works
18:10:12 <andythenorth> I have another 70 years or so to try and win the GS goal
18:10:20 <andythenorth> will see if I find anything else
18:10:35 <fonsinchen> Does it make a difference compared with asymmetric?
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18:12:02 <andythenorth> I didn’t stick at asymmetric enough to give a fair answer
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18:12:28 <andythenorth> I found with asymmetric that I was trying to reverse-engineer cdist to get things where I wanted them
18:13:11 <andythenorth> I also got annoyed by cargo building up at some stations for reasons I didn’t understand
18:13:18 <andythenorth> that’s not happening with waybill
18:14:05 <fonsinchen> OK, thanks for testing.
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18:32:08 <andythenorth> fonsinchen: what’s your current thoughts about tile demands?
18:47:40 <andythenorth> V453000: I haz FIRS ideaz
18:51:00 <andythenorth> so farms all have to be connected to central transfer stations (slave labour)
18:51:09 <andythenorth> and then, once supplies are being delivered
18:51:18 <andythenorth> all hell breaks loose in an otherwise satisfying network
18:51:23 <andythenorth> and not in an interesting way
18:51:51 <andythenorth> unless they’re all connected and supplied, the cargo volumes are way too small
18:52:01 <andythenorth> and then once they are supplied, the cargo volumes are bonkers
18:52:46 <Alberth> it simulates realistic good year / bad year :p
18:53:02 <frosch123> i still don't get why andy doesn't like the farm transfers
18:53:11 <frosch123> transfering is the most fun part of the game
18:53:19 <frosch123> and firs farms are about the only legit usecase for road vehicles
18:53:43 <frosch123> is it just a trick to not make bandit?
18:54:13 <andythenorth> if I really hated the farms I’d have removed the clustering by now
18:54:17 <andythenorth> I think there’s a better solution
18:56:24 <Phreeze> first thing i read from andy, is a rant vs his great grfs :)
18:56:42 <Phreeze> 20:54:16] <andythenorth> if I really hated the farms I’d have removed the clustering by now
18:56:42 <Phreeze> [20:54:20] <andythenorth> I think there’s a better solution
18:56:42 <Phreeze> [20:56:15] * Pikka (~Octomom@d110-32-20-106.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au) has joined #openttd
18:57:23 <Phreeze> what are those catenaries andy ?
18:57:38 <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway, the key to interesting gameplay is diverse gameplay
18:57:53 <frosch123> so, feel free to add another chain with different mechaincs :p
18:58:23 <Phreeze> interesting varies a lot: some find it interesting in playing realistic as hell, other love details and create giant infrastructure, others want to make perfect tracklayout etc
18:58:38 * Phreeze slaps andythenorth around a bit with a large trout
18:58:47 <frosch123> Phreeze: i wouldn't call "realistic" playing
18:58:53 <fonsinchen> andythenorth: I think I'm going to remove tile demands.
18:59:21 <frosch123> the most extreme realistic players are not playing at all, but just to bullheaded to use photoshop
19:01:14 <andythenorth> fonsinchen: routing is to industry instances (or tiles), not to stations?
19:01:24 <andythenorth> I have two covered industries, one appears to be unsupplied
19:01:31 <fonsinchen> it's to stations with demand
19:01:42 <fonsinchen> probably tile demand again
19:02:02 <fonsinchen> ah, you mean supplied by the same station?
19:02:25 <andythenorth> so the final distribution from station to accepting industry is same as vanilla ottd?
19:02:36 <andythenorth> whichever N tile is nearest?
19:02:40 <fonsinchen> That's just as without cargodist. It only delivers to one industry.
19:03:35 <andythenorth> feel like solving that? o_O (separately)
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19:04:00 <Pikka> so that you can stationwalk across all your farms and not have to build feeder networks? ;)
19:04:45 <fonsinchen> I definitely don't feel like solving that. It's a mess.
19:04:45 <Pikka> little distribution networks are "interesting gameplay" though
19:04:59 <andythenorth> only for the first 5 or so :P
19:05:02 <andythenorth> then they are ‘chore'
19:05:16 <Pikka> they get your trucks used
19:05:48 <andythenorth> I could live without that
19:05:52 <frosch123> andythenorth: how does that no apply to all industries?
19:06:36 <frosch123> connecting the fifth industry is always the same as before
19:06:38 <andythenorth> most primaries only produce one cargo
19:06:44 <andythenorth> so the station building is less tedious
19:06:56 <andythenorth> most / non-farm /s
19:07:08 <frosch123> maybe create a "andy"-economy without farms :p
19:07:18 <andythenorth> it’s quite easy to do a non-blocking dropoff / pickup arrangement
19:07:29 <andythenorth> it’s hard to do two non-blocking pickups and a dropoff
19:07:43 <andythenorth> and omg, realism
19:07:47 <andythenorth> or rather aesthetics
19:07:56 <andythenorth> mines look ok with lots of station around them
19:08:06 <andythenorth> farms look stupid when there are more truck stop tiles than farm
19:08:45 <andythenorth> I think the answer is higher initial production, lower supply boost, and fewer farms per cluster
19:08:45 <Alberth> close the farm when too many stops nearby :p
19:08:56 <andythenorth> Alberth: evil :D
19:09:28 <Pikka> all arable land has been occupied by roads, you have been eaten by a grue
19:09:44 <Alberth> how many farms per cluster do you have now?
19:10:46 <Alberth> it used to be quite nice in setup, but then again, I hardly play with supplies
19:11:56 <Alberth> 5-6 is what I remember
19:12:28 <Alberth> but a very big cluster once in a while could be nice
19:13:32 <peter1139> Hmm, is 4096x4096 playable?
19:14:01 <andythenorth> only if you don’t get bored easily
19:16:00 <Phreeze> 4096 is like an "endless game"
19:16:12 <Phreeze> i'm just into small maps now, 512
19:16:33 <fonsinchen> 4096x4096 is probably a pain, but 4096x64 is pretty cool
19:16:41 <andythenorth> seems coal mins can cluster up to 20
19:16:48 <andythenorth> but spread over a larger distance
19:17:13 <andythenorth> oh I’m reading this all wrong :)
19:17:41 <andythenorth> Alberth: I have absolutely no idea how big a cluster can big be :)
19:19:44 <andythenorth> I suspect there is no fixed limit per cluster, but rather a number of clusters per map
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19:24:47 <andythenorth> a mine running at Gung Ho is easy to serve with trains
19:24:54 <andythenorth> farms with trams or trucks are a PITS
19:25:02 <andythenorth> one day I will learn to type
19:27:44 <Eddi|zuHause> news flash: 512 is not "small" :p
19:28:20 <Alberth> number of clusters per map, interesting :)
19:28:53 <Alberth> I usually play with few industries, which would explain why my farm clusters are quite small
19:29:17 <andythenorth> my last game had 8-16 per cluster
19:29:38 <andythenorth> 256x256 is small
19:29:48 <Alberth> I hope you scale the number of clusters on map size
19:29:52 <Eddi|zuHause> small maps are a problem with FIRS, there are so many industry types that you only get one per type
19:29:58 <Eddi|zuHause> which breaks the clustering
19:30:11 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: 64x64 is fun :)
19:30:15 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: insoluble :D
19:30:26 <Alberth> you get one industry of every type :)
19:31:11 <Alberth> and almost no room left to transport stuff
19:31:51 <Eddi|zuHause> my last 64x64 game was with MiniIN
19:32:36 <frosch123> do a 128x64 map, and build two stations on it
19:32:37 <Eddi|zuHause> but that one 128x256 game i played with YACD was great fun
19:33:14 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise i played 512x512 or bigger
19:33:41 <Eddi|zuHause> usually i prefer "sparse" maps
19:33:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. low towns/industries
19:34:06 <Eddi|zuHause> lots of space inbetween
19:34:40 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a shame the variety distribution is so bad with aspect ratio scaling
19:35:06 <Eddi|zuHause> or i'd try something like 128x2048
19:37:27 <andythenorth> you _could_ fix it o_O
19:49:59 <andythenorth> converting to electric rail on a bridge converted the narrow gauge underneath it
19:51:14 <Alberth> only convert the bridge ramps :)
19:51:45 <andythenorth> drag-drop error :P
19:52:42 <Phreeze> what catenaries are in that screenshot ?
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19:54:58 * Phreeze slaps andythenorth around a bit with a large trout
19:55:30 <andythenorth> I don’t know the details
19:59:27 <andythenorth> Pikka: I am very +1 to AV9 so far
19:59:38 <andythenorth> it’s 1927, and choosing which plane to use is very easy
20:01:04 <andythenorth> silly bunching ships
20:01:48 <Eddi|zuHause> those are the default tram catenaries
20:01:59 <Eddi|zuHause> which look ugly as hell with all the double poles
20:02:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea why they were even considered for inclusion
20:04:27 <Pikka> probably because you didn't draw any better ones at the time
20:04:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i think there were alternatives available back then already
20:09:57 <andythenorth> feel free to patch them
20:10:06 <andythenorth> I had never noticed the ugliness until you pointed it out :|
20:10:10 <andythenorth> now I can never unsee it
20:12:10 * andythenorth had stations on ‘planned’ instead of ‘waiting'
20:12:23 <andythenorth> 11,700 tonnes of Iron Ore waiting
20:12:26 <andythenorth> or is that tons?
20:13:01 <Alberth> it's heavy either way :)
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20:23:07 <Phreeze> i think i had an av9 problem
20:23:21 <Phreeze> the newspaper didnt show the sprite, but some "av9" letters
20:23:27 <planetmaker> g'evening (again)
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20:24:57 <Pikka> it's not exactly a proper release ;)
20:26:10 <Pikka> 9.8 is really just a stats test, to see if it's playable
20:27:44 <Pikka> surely it's not playable?
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20:28:37 <Pikka> no, it's still in denial
20:29:48 <andythenorth> shameful egypt jokes
20:30:36 <Pikka> all men are fools, and what makes them so is beauty like what I have got?
20:31:23 <andythenorth> let’s see what cdist does with ‘refit any available’ orders
20:33:04 <andythenorth> not much so far :P
20:34:27 <fonsinchen> andythenorth: You have to run each cargo over the link at least once to bootstrap it.
20:34:40 <fonsinchen> Otherwise it won't know what it can refit to.
20:34:54 <andythenorth> should be ok in this case
20:35:48 <fonsinchen> It only works if it's "existing same link for all available cargos".
20:36:36 <fonsinchen> (or for initially unrouted cargo "to any station")
20:37:36 * andythenorth wonders how the refitted cargo is chosen
20:37:47 <andythenorth> 180t coal waiting, 7809t iron ore
20:37:50 <andythenorth> refit chosen is coal :P
20:38:09 <fonsinchen> Iron probably doesn't have the right routing information.
20:38:33 <fonsinchen> Does it refit all wagons to the same cargo?
20:38:42 <andythenorth> it’s ships, but yeah I think you’re right
20:38:54 <andythenorth> the iron ore has lost its route
20:38:58 <andythenorth> it’s ‘any station'
20:39:20 <fonsinchen> Then it should actually load it. If it doesn't please show me the savegame
20:39:34 <andythenorth> and the trains have stopped dropping off (they don’t have explicit transfer orders)
20:39:38 <andythenorth> hang on I’ll upload
20:39:49 * peter1139 steals andythenorth's smartquotes.
20:40:22 <andythenorth> stupid irc client
20:40:59 <fonsinchen> You're still playing the waybill patch, right?
20:42:38 <andythenorth> maybe it just needs more time to get the links up
20:44:58 <fonsinchen> which of those iron horses is the right one?
20:46:18 <andythenorth> 700M - filename is iron-horse.tar
20:46:19 <fonsinchen> The newest one, I guess? The non-alpha one?
20:46:34 <andythenorth> didn’t realise there were 4 in the dir :P
20:48:01 <fonsinchen> Fiddlewig East, I guess?
20:48:13 <fonsinchen> One thing to note is that the ship will only refit when it's empty
20:48:34 <fonsinchen> Just like without cargodist
20:48:42 <andythenorth> should be empty afaict
20:48:50 <andythenorth> did I mess up an order?
20:48:58 <fonsinchen> one is half full of coal
20:49:03 <fonsinchen> the other one refits to iron
20:49:33 <andythenorth> ok, so it was just patience needed
20:50:12 <andythenorth> does the vehicle just refit to lowest cargo ID with some amount waiting?
20:50:22 <fonsinchen> hmm, no it prefers coal
20:50:34 * andythenorth bets on lowest ID
20:50:36 <fonsinchen> whenever there is coal it refits to coal
20:50:53 <Pikka> Wolf01, yes, but on the other hand it's Trainz
20:51:02 <andythenorth> coal is ID 1, iron ore is 8
20:56:01 <fonsinchen> It will only refit to something else after trying one cargo successfully if the consist's free capacity for the new cargo is lower than that for the old one.
20:56:18 <fonsinchen> Works fine for trains or other things with multiple vehicles per consist
20:56:24 <fonsinchen> not so much for ships ...
21:00:07 <Pikka> the obvious solution is articulated ships
21:00:14 <Pikka> and articulated aircraft
21:00:25 <andythenorth> they won’t be able to overtake
21:07:19 <andythenorth> fonsinchen: FWIW, I don’t think an incentive is needed to connect nodes
21:07:31 <andythenorth> but then again, I only play with GS now, and that controls the incentives
21:08:04 <andythenorth> speaking as the failed designer of a large industry set, I would recommend leaving gameplay incentives to GS :P
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21:24:20 <andythenorth> ‘close dock’ anyone?
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21:27:57 <Eddi|zuHause> softly caressing
21:28:17 <Pikka> peter1139, so what was the problem with the shortened diagonal patch?
21:28:43 <peter1139> It does but doesn't.
21:29:02 <peter1139> It doesn't always get the distances right. Needs more sub-positioning accuracy.
21:30:03 <Pikka> knock it over in an afternoon?
21:31:22 <Eddi|zuHause> multiply the number of substeps by 3?
21:32:24 <Eddi|zuHause> 1.5 is "almost" sqrt(2)
21:33:51 <peter1139> Might as well do it properly and have smoother motion in 4x zoom
21:34:30 <Eddi|zuHause> multiply by 12 :)
21:36:36 <Eddi|zuHause> (this was done by exposing "progress" to newgrfs
21:36:53 <Eddi|zuHause> which is in original TTD specs, but somehow omitted by OpenTTD
21:37:41 <Pikka> well if it's a newgrf specific thing it might not be so bad
21:38:18 <Pikka> but I don't want to have to choose between having sliding animated vehicles, and having 4 times as many animation frames. :)
21:38:52 <Eddi|zuHause> + case 0x38: return (v->GetAdvanceDistance() - v->progress)*256/v->GetAdvanceDistance() - 1;
21:39:26 <Eddi|zuHause> the original specs had something weird in there
21:39:46 <Eddi|zuHause> could just expose progress directly, though
21:39:56 <Pikka> 38 B On each round of vehicle processing, if the vehicle is not stopped, the low byte of current speed (or 3/4 of the current speed, if bit 0 of vehicle direction is clear) is subtracted from this field; if the result overflows the vehicle is to move by 1 unit of location (for trains, the vehicle additionally is to move by the number of units equal to the high byte of the current speed)
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21:41:01 <Eddi|zuHause> progress is counting up while varB8 is counting down
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21:42:17 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/
21:42:37 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/varB8_proper.patch
21:42:49 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, did i not upload that?
21:43:30 <Eddi|zuHause> not entirely sure what the other two hunks do
21:43:43 <Eddi|zuHause> seem to just shuffle around stuff
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21:59:07 <qwebirc76812> Hey folks, running into a problem with the android version
21:59:20 <qwebirc76812> "failed connectiong to ....." after install
21:59:50 <qwebirc76812> this a temporary issue? known? workaround?
22:01:57 <Pikka> you should ask the developer, the android port isn't an official release
22:03:36 <Pikka> his name is pelya on the forums afaia
22:05:03 <Eddi|zuHause> 1st step: change your nick
22:05:14 <Eddi|zuHause> 2nd step: tell what you're trying to do and which step fails
22:05:23 <Eddi|zuHause> 3rd step: provide the full error message
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22:20:28 <seriously> okay that's a bit of a strange request
22:20:53 <seriously> I installed the game on Android
22:21:17 <seriously> it tries to connect and grab the data files
22:22:13 <seriously> on the SDL loading screen
22:23:35 <seriously> a url which doesn't respond on my desktop either
22:25:17 *** Neil is now known as Guest7264
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22:31:33 <seriously> seems like something silly like a bad url reference in the sdl wrapper installer
22:32:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that seems to work here
22:32:54 <Pikka> here too. either the server was temporarily down, or the problem is on your end.
22:33:19 <seriously> maybe it was just an internet burp
22:34:22 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it was a mirror that was not available
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22:35:01 <seriously_> was doing that all day
22:36:04 <Guest7264> is it possible to install and run openttd from one folder after its been built from source?
22:36:11 *** Guest7264 is now known as NucWin
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22:36:34 <Eddi|zuHause> create an empty openttd.cfg in the folder
22:36:45 <Eddi|zuHause> then it will use all data and save files from there
22:36:56 <Eddi|zuHause> instead of the personal directory
22:37:25 <NucWin> im also trying to avoid make install
22:37:58 <NucWin> do i just need openttd from bin folder after make
22:38:14 <Eddi|zuHause> try "make bundle"
22:38:49 <Eddi|zuHause> the binary is not enough
22:39:08 <Eddi|zuHause> you also need language files and stuff
22:39:10 <NucWin> ah nice thats what i needed
22:39:37 <NucWin> will have to remember that one for when compiling other stuff
22:39:39 <Eddi|zuHause> also, you need a graphics pack additionally to the source/compile
22:40:00 <Eddi|zuHause> but it will usually try to download those on first start
22:40:30 <Eddi|zuHause> except if you're on OSX, because nobody implemented that there
22:42:28 <NucWin> it was complaining about lzma even though i had its dev packages installed so just installed build-deps including sdl stuff
22:43:07 <Eddi|zuHause> it needs "lzma2" (also called "xz")
22:43:39 <Eddi|zuHause> it works without, but you can't open other people's savegames or join multiplayer servers
22:44:55 <NucWin> will have to try and remember that, wiki pages could do with stuff for building dedicated server only as package is not provided
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22:45:31 <Eddi|zuHause> wiki pages do stuff you put on them :)
22:46:05 <Eddi|zuHause> if you found something missing from the wiki page, and you did that, then you're the expert :)
22:51:32 <luaduck> hoy folks, is there any way to do something akin to file includes with the OTTD config file?
22:51:41 <luaduck> got a banlist I want to share between servers
22:51:52 <Eddi|zuHause> not that i know of
22:52:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but you could do a "on server start" script
22:52:48 <Eddi|zuHause> in the script subdir
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23:41:04 <NucWin> how do i get my dedicated server to use newgrf ive downloaded using content command
23:49:27 <Eddi|zuHause> put them in openttd.cfg as "path/file.grf = parameters"
23:49:43 <Eddi|zuHause> or use a savegame made by the client
23:49:45 <NucWin> umm i tried that but it seemed to delete them
23:50:06 <Eddi|zuHause> do not edit openttd.cfg while the server is running, it is overwritten on exit
23:50:31 <Eddi|zuHause> (or use the "reload config" command)
23:50:57 <Eddi|zuHause> note that newgrf changes only apply to new games, not savegames
23:52:21 <NucWin> i thought i had stopped the server and copied [newgrf] section from local client but didnt seem to wokr
23:53:26 <Eddi|zuHause> you probably missed something
23:56:10 <NucWin> content_download/newgrf/Total_Town_Replacement_Set-3.14.tar
23:57:36 <NucWin> total_town_replacement_set-3.14\ttrs3w.grf = 1 0 2 1
23:58:04 <NucWin> but when i quit the server its deleted again
23:58:14 <NucWin> and i have checked 3times that i stopped the server first
continue to next day ⏵
