IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-04-01
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00:33:40 <M3Henry1> mm, due to my offset sleeping pattern, it's pretty much that for me too xD
01:02:33 <dizzy__> so is there any reason to not just take out a huge loan and get planes
01:24:22 <Supercheese> Only if planes aren't available
01:24:29 <Supercheese> they're still the best option otherwise
01:32:14 <supermop> the only reason not to is that other vehicles are more fun
01:35:54 <Supercheese> Nothing to stop you from building other vehicles once planes are flying, of course
01:36:08 <Supercheese> but hey, it's OTTD, do whatcha want!
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04:44:52 <Flygon> What if you're playing in the Steam era?
04:45:07 <Flygon> And the best plane you got is the Zepplin? :P
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05:05:17 <Supercheese> Zeppelins print cash
05:05:27 <Supercheese> Very good money makers when I use them
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06:17:16 <Supercheese> April 1... 1.4.0 release day?
06:21:29 <Supercheese> Still plenty of time
06:21:40 <Supercheese> date hasn't even rolled over here in the west coast
06:25:10 <V453000> well dutchies arent very west :P
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06:42:27 <Flygon> But stuff April Fools jokes
06:42:35 <Flygon> I'mma play Pokemon Pinball for the first time in a decade
06:42:46 <Flygon> God DAMN, this game is evil.
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07:00:26 <Supercheese> The only winning move... is not to play
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08:10:21 <V453000> hm, model_life has Anything to do with vehicle_life?
08:10:45 <V453000> cause I have model life on 15, vehicle life on 50, and the vehicle from 1920 is still available in 1956
08:11:00 <V453000> or can that be related to cheating the game from 1930->1950? :D
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08:30:28 <planetmaker> model life: When starting a new game, a random amount between 31 months and 17 years is added to this as well.
08:39:45 <V453000> hm so retire_early wont influence that random amount eh
08:41:49 <planetmaker> I don't think so, yes
08:41:57 <planetmaker> but not entirely sure
08:47:54 <V453000> I guess no way to go around that randomization eh
08:47:58 <V453000> 17 years is a shitload :(
08:48:40 <V453000> it would be super awesome if the spec would allow grf to set precise introduction date, and precise expiration date :|
08:48:56 <V453000> 2 years on introduction is meh, but 17 is really confusing lot
08:49:22 <planetmaker> it's only the lifetime
08:49:30 <planetmaker> so won't move to earlier years
08:49:37 <planetmaker> and newer vehicles are better anyway, no? :)
08:49:51 <V453000> sure but shortening purchase lists you know
08:50:25 <Pikka> something something fewer vehicles
08:51:02 <V453000> fewer vehicles could only be achieved by vehicles changing stats based on year
08:51:09 <V453000> which is awful, but yeah
08:53:16 <planetmaker> I mean... if the purchase list with expiring vehicles is too long. Then you have too many vehicles on that railtype
08:53:43 <planetmaker> The random factor in vehicle life definitely plays an extremly minor role in this consideration
09:10:46 <V453000> it doesnt because if you want to replace one model with another, the expiring would be nice not to delay by decades
09:12:12 <planetmaker> V453000, you can always replace the model by another. The only thing is that the player can still buy the old model. but the new as well
09:12:16 <planetmaker> so... where's the problem?
09:12:43 <V453000> that the purchase list is 7 times longer for no reason
09:12:53 <planetmaker> it won't be 7-times longer...
09:13:03 <planetmaker> you see problems where there aren't any really
09:13:13 <V453000> well if you replace that engine by 7 new trains
09:13:26 <V453000> e.g. it has 7 improvements within the class
09:13:36 <V453000> why have the older 6 available
09:13:36 <planetmaker> yeah, and if model life is 2 months. And if the moon turned blue ;)
09:14:00 <planetmaker> that's at best a factor of two
09:14:31 <planetmaker> *and*, it's random. Thus not *every*, but only very few will be available for long(er)
09:15:24 <V453000> looks suspiciously consisteny in my current game
09:16:09 <planetmaker> for randomness a measurment of n=1 is a bad statistics
09:16:29 <planetmaker> especially when date cheats are in play
09:16:41 <V453000> yes the date cheat had an influence
09:17:56 <Pikka> V453000, why do you introduce updates so frequently that the seventh is introduced while the first is still available?
09:18:19 <V453000> Pikka: because it shouldnt be available, the random adding 17 years made it so
09:18:32 <V453000> well not 7, currently I have 1-4 available
09:18:52 <V453000> it still is strangely chaotic
09:19:44 <Pikka> if the gap between generations was more than 17 years, you'd never have more than one more than you're "supposed" to have available, right?
09:20:11 <Pikka> I realise that sentence is very hard to parse, but with context you know what I mean. :P
09:20:11 <V453000> yes and the player would get bored to death by having engines not frequently enough :)
09:20:44 <planetmaker> and with updates every 2 years the players won't use the vehicles as it becomes pointless to use the new ones. but rather wait for the next or even 2nd next
09:21:23 <V453000> trains within a class update at no less than 10 years in nuts pm
09:21:36 <V453000> if you consider there are 7 or more classes, yes it is less than 2 years
09:24:38 <V453000> but it isnt very common that players would upgrade cross-classes [more often than every 10 years]
09:27:29 <Taede> isnt it also unlikely people will use all classes within one company?
09:27:57 <Taede> you could add a parameter which disables 'advanced' classes, like meow and chami
09:28:51 <V453000> it doesnt maky any sense to reduce amount of choices a player can make
09:29:15 <V453000> and they arent advanced in any way, anybody can use them easily if they have fun with them
09:29:27 <V453000> but yeah all classes within one company are not very likely
09:33:37 <Taede> but you are reducing the list to lower the threshold for new players right?
09:34:22 <V453000> in reasonable fashion
09:34:31 <V453000> removing all but one engine would solve that too? :P
09:34:55 <Taede> wouldnt it make more sense to reduce the number of available classes (by only allowing basic set, superstrong/strong/medium/fast/intercity/local) rather than reducing the number of engines from one class available at the same time?
09:34:58 <V453000> removing useless vehicles which got replaced by better ones isnt harming anything
09:35:08 <V453000> removing classes (== options) is harmful
09:35:30 <Taede> i can easily distinguish the best vehicle in a class, but which class to choose is less obvious
09:35:41 <V453000> not really, parameters like that could be majorly confusing and mainly limiting everybody on the server
09:35:48 <Taede> not unless i read the wiki, which is not what new players will do
09:35:52 <V453000> yes but if the purchase list has 150 vehicles, ... :)
09:37:10 <V453000> I dont want to add parameters which influence how it works, if someone sees nuts, it should work always the same
09:37:41 <V453000> if I wanted it to function differently, I would make different newGRF
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09:39:35 <V453000> the thing I am trying to achieve is make it more convenient to use at no cost
09:44:26 <maddy_> what if the vehicle list had an option that you could toggle, to show 'recommended' engines or all of them?
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09:46:32 <V453000> but it doesnt have that option ...
09:47:00 <maddy_> though doesn't the setting to let vehicles expire kind of do what you want already?
09:48:10 <maddy_> ok I see the problem with that from previous conversation, had to catch up :)
09:50:29 <maddy_> easy fix: add a new advanced setting to disable the randomness which is added to the expiration date :)
09:51:53 <maddy_> no that sucks, what I really mean is add a flag for newGRF trainsets so they can disable it
09:54:01 <Flygon> VR would drive you guys nuts
09:54:20 <Flygon> They basically rehashed the B-class so many times from 1950 to 1980 it's... well, interesting
09:54:29 <Flygon> The S-class, the X-class... the... uh...
09:54:39 <Flygon> Okay, perhaps they did release rehashes that were more powerful :|
10:27:05 <V453000> that is exactly what was suggesting maddy_
10:35:32 <maddy_> yeah, I know, I just agreed that would be a good idea
10:38:39 <maddy_> I haven't looked at the GRF interface, but I would imagine adding one simple boolean flag would not be a huge task? I hope it is easily extendable with new stuff
10:39:44 <V453000> consulting with frosch123 sounds like a good idea
10:39:56 <V453000> -> me iz waiting for that
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11:48:00 <V453000> that basically means I can forget about such a function I assume
11:49:01 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: what problem do you have? retire_early other than 0 should circumvent the end-of-life randomization
11:50:05 <Eddi|zuHause> it randomizes the length of phase 3, but retire_early is based on phase 2?
11:50:15 <Eddi|zuHause> (or have i misunderstood stuff?)
12:01:47 <V453000> I dont think I understand how this works anymore :D
12:02:44 <planetmaker> V453000, try to set an early retirement
12:03:08 <planetmaker> which may be negative. But set one
12:04:12 <mg_> hi, if i would like to start a new game with 1.4-RC1, will my save be compatible with final stable 1.4 when it comes out?
12:05:18 <planetmaker> mg_, any game started with an official OpenTTD version can be loaded with any later official OpenTTD version
12:05:55 <planetmaker> so: yes. of course.
12:14:26 <planetmaker> what does *not* work, is going back to an *earlier* version of OpenTTD. That usually includes going back from a nightly release to a stable or testing release. But that's not what you asked :)
12:18:36 <mg_> btw. i'm here first time and i've been playing original tycoon when i was a kid. so, i would like to thank all of you for doing this :)
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14:02:23 <__ln___> i guess he wants to se he won't buy the record because it's scratched
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14:46:43 <Eddi|zuHause> "it would be cheaper to tear down berlin and rebuild it near an operational airport"
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15:21:54 <andythenorth> no April 1 trolls?
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17:48:57 <frosch123> fs#5961 is funny, wouldn't have thought of that
17:52:22 <Eddi|zuHause> now someone finally decouple road side from signal side. and then make it a company setting. and then show the links depending on whether it's a road link or a train link :p
17:53:24 <frosch123> the former has been done 2 years ago
17:53:29 <frosch123> the latter makes no sense
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17:56:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't played for two years
17:56:15 <Eddi|zuHause> (and i probably would not have noticed anyway)
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18:29:40 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26439 /branches/1.4 (7 files in 4 dirs) (2014-04-01 18:29:34 UTC)
18:29:41 <DorpsGek> [1.4] -Update documentation
18:33:22 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26440 /tags/1.4.0 (9 files in 3 dirs) (2014-04-01 18:33:16 UTC)
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18:34:04 <Xaroth|Work> 1.4.0 on 1/4/14 \o/
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19:41:36 *** DorpsGek changes topic to "1.4.0 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | #openttd.dev for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices"
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19:48:46 <LordAro> frosch123, wiki updated ^^
19:50:58 <LordAro> hmm, aren't there "feature" templates, which show which feature was added when?
19:51:06 <LordAro> i wonder if those have been updated..
19:51:42 <frosch123> they are updated on making the branch
19:52:04 <frosch123> we may need a new concept for them at some point though :p
19:52:12 <frosch123> they keep getting wider and wider :p
19:54:01 <LordAro> jusdt remove the old ones :)
19:54:13 <frosch123> well, but they contain the most info :p
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19:54:45 <frosch123> i guess we just need a more compact representation
19:54:55 <frosch123> some type of gauge with labels, instead of individual checkboxes
19:57:22 <LordAro> i've never been good at mediawiki templates, so i'll let you do that :p
19:58:43 <frosch123> pff, it's more html magic than mediawiki :p
19:59:16 <frosch123> i learned html in the first browser war, around 1999; no idea about css and stuff :p
20:00:06 <frosch123> but apparently javascript is stilll around :p
20:00:24 <frosch123> while jscript is not
20:00:36 <LordAro> i'ts more jquery now though, afaik
20:01:15 <LordAro> i don't do a huge amount of webdev stuff, i don't use me as a reliable source ;)
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20:06:33 <Eddi|zuHause> todays episode of "grandpa tells stories from the war"?
20:08:31 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: so, whose side were you on during the war?
20:09:56 <peter1138> netscape navigator, hah, ver 3
20:10:54 <frosch123> i think the hpux machines in the student pool ran 2.1 or something
20:14:14 <andythenorth> ver 3 was like a serious upgrade
20:14:21 <andythenorth> it had more colours
20:26:37 <frosch123> blathijs: heffer: we have a new release (surprise) :)
20:27:04 <planetmaker> best WS I worked on was an Irix with True64
20:27:43 <planetmaker> they also had something like that netscape. And also there was an internet explorer 2.x or so
20:31:32 <planetmaker> maybe I'm wrong in my memory about version. But I *think* it was the Irix.
20:33:23 <planetmaker> hm... maybe I was wrong and it was one of the SPARCS or HP-UX and version then 4.
20:34:04 <planetmaker> But I (and not only I) wondered back then in 1997 about the IE on a machine one definitely wouldn't expect to find it
20:34:32 <frosch123> hm, didn't know those existed either
20:35:17 <frosch123> but, actually, ... from mac to unix it is not that far
20:35:55 <planetmaker> looking at that wiki page it was vice versa ;)
20:36:41 <__ln___> frosch123: mac os classic wasn't unix at all.
20:36:43 <michi_cc> MacOS Not-X to Unix is actually very far.
20:37:44 <frosch123> but ok, \r does not sound unixy
20:39:10 <frosch123> planetmaker: according to that wiki page 5.2.3 was releassed before 5.1.7
20:39:50 <frosch123> oh, and actually both way after 5.5b1
20:39:59 <frosch123> those dates are completely random
20:40:18 <planetmaker> yes, those versions were in 2005 or so. the unix ones in 1998
20:40:27 <planetmaker> but I wonder when the first mac IEs appeared
20:47:00 <planetmaker> mac 8.1 is 1998. So seems about the same time
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21:10:17 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i think i learned html in 10th grade, 1998-ish, but i didn't really use the internet back then
21:11:13 <frosch123> well, i have no idea when i learned basic html
21:11:39 <andythenorth> I was born knowing *basic* html
21:11:57 <frosch123> but at some point there was the issue that you had to program all advanced scripting twice
21:12:01 <frosch123> for two browesers :p
21:12:23 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that's why i favoured non-script-y stuff :)
21:12:35 <frosch123> scripts were the fun part :p
21:12:43 <andythenorth> scripts were the non-working part
21:12:50 <andythenorth> I lost a whole day to a simple image gallery once
21:12:53 <rubidium> isn't that still the case?
21:12:56 <andythenorth> hence flash instead
21:13:03 <frosch123> i remember writing a spring-physics engine to let a navigation bar flly in
21:13:06 <frosch123> and expand subitems
21:13:09 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i learned a bit of java applets at start of university
21:13:20 <rubidium> (at least if you still need 'support for at work', i.e. IE6)
21:13:38 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but i have never ever seen a use for it
21:14:41 <Eddi|zuHause> my diploma thesis included a "export this interface as webservice" bit
21:15:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know if it actually worked properly
21:15:51 <frosch123> ah, it was actually 98
21:16:43 <frosch123> with some mates i participated in a start-up game organised by some banks
21:16:53 <frosch123> which involved creating a website for your virtual company
21:17:42 <frosch123> which was such a fake-scam that we actually got a cooperation-contact-query by a real company :o
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21:20:53 <planetmaker> lol, awesome, frosch123 :)
21:23:30 <frosch123> hmm, the way-back-machine nows the url and the page title, but does not seem to have the actual data stored
21:26:41 <frosch123> well, i guess it was due to us listing all important companies on our "partner" page :p
21:29:00 <frosch123> hmm, the url is even used by a company today
21:29:09 <frosch123> same company name :üp
21:29:34 <frosch123> maybe we could have sold the url, if we kept it
21:45:06 <planetmaker> what is / was it?
21:46:46 <frosch123> we used some dodgy contract to get a free url, which required us to run the website for years
21:47:13 <frosch123> until the company offering the free urls went defunct
21:47:32 <frosch123> but since we were hosting it on university servers, there was no issue with keeping it up :p
21:47:58 <frosch123> your do silly things as pupil :p
21:48:43 <frosch123> anyway, the only thing that is archived apparently is the frameset
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21:49:00 <planetmaker> yeah, seems so. Not much to see. Sadly
21:49:23 <frosch123> well, likely it would not run properly anyway on current browsers
21:49:33 <frosch123> it runs on ns 4.0 and ie 4.0 :)
21:49:48 <planetmaker> the html should still work?
21:50:20 <frosch123> yes, the plain pages, but the navigation was all javascript
21:50:30 <frosch123> animated buttons which move around and such
21:56:41 <glx> animated gifs everywhere ?
21:57:10 <planetmaker> hm. I just got a vote for a titlegame :D
21:58:20 <planetmaker> Round2. He voted for the one we shipped today.
21:58:48 <frosch123> fast reaction time :)
22:00:02 <planetmaker> I think I'll reply that we released it already in anticipation of his decisive vote :P
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22:18:29 <planetmaker> seems to have been the typical case of "first read, then send, then read the rest of the page". He said he noticed at the moment he sent the e-mail :D
22:18:52 <planetmaker> that deadline was 2 weeks ago
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23:09:21 <supermop> very tempted to go out for a magic but i reckon i should save the money and make coffee at home
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