IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-02-18
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06:43:37 <Supercheese> "Trains will teleport at random intervals"
07:51:43 <Xaroth|Work> V453000: love the category 'meow' and 'brainmelt' :P
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08:39:39 <V453000> anybody shares the opinion that this person is of severe brain illness?
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15:28:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't get this mfans guy, he says he's afraid of bugs in beta, but then he plays a random patchpack?
15:36:47 <peter1139> Because they're not called betas.
15:40:26 <planetmaker> oh, does he? That's cute :)
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17:32:35 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but... it patched a release, so it must be more stable
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17:50:24 * frosch123 ponders a duck only toyland game with sv and toys goal
17:51:20 <frosch123> what is the meow class abuot?
17:54:07 <frosch123> hmm, so my blind coded windows patches did not work :p
17:58:53 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26353 /trunk/src/thread (thread_os2.cpp thread_win32.cpp) (2014-02-18 17:58:46 UTC)
17:58:54 <DorpsGek> -Fix (r26349) [FS#5917]: Win32 and OS/2 ThreadMutex::WaitForSignal always asserted.
17:59:48 <frosch123> maybe coding stuff blindly, committing it, checking whether the farm succeeds, and then letting users test whether it even starts is not the ideal method :p
18:00:02 <frosch123> but it helps with moar cake
18:01:58 <Eddi|zuHause> you could always just throw an r26353 party :p
18:03:36 <frosch123> you could add the numbers of bear bottle which V consumed in his life to it
18:03:42 <frosch123> then we can make a 50k party
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18:06:30 <frosch123> 2 liters of beer per day over 10 years or so
18:07:06 <Eddi|zuHause> how small are your beer bottles?
18:07:13 <planetmaker> you know them, Eddi|zuHause :)
18:07:21 <planetmaker> you drank from V's bottles, too
18:07:22 <frosch123> 0.3 to make it easier for him :p
18:08:06 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i drank some beer bottles which i found unusually small
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18:08:20 <frosch123> there also exist 0.2 bottles
18:08:29 <Eddi|zuHause> you almost exclusively get 0.5 bottles over here
18:09:59 <frosch123> 20 or 24 bottles per box?
18:12:12 <frosch123> i think the spambots on the forums are way too old
18:13:10 <frosch123> is 34 our average age?
18:13:27 <planetmaker> but I think 34 is above average
18:14:03 <frosch123> well, i also enter the twens this year
18:14:28 <frosch123> what did the "h" at the end mean?
18:14:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i only marginally lower that
18:14:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think it's that far off, though
18:15:10 <Eddi|zuHause> and there are 20 bottles per case
18:18:17 <Eddi|zuHause> "A 27-year-old woman was arrested for not returning a VHS-cassete of the film 'Monster-in-law' since 2005"
18:19:18 <frosch123> is that similar to husband-in-law ?
18:21:52 <frosch123> planetmaker: i am not sure about 1.3.3, i have a suspicion that 1.3.2 may be better :p
18:25:52 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the german title is "Das Schwiegermonster"
18:26:17 <Eddi|zuHause> which i don't remember watching
18:26:34 <Eddi|zuHause> which is probably a good thing in either case :p
18:27:19 <Eddi|zuHause> (either it's so bad that i did not bother watching it, or it's so bad that not remembering is a defensive mechanism of my brain)
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18:45:15 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26354 trunk/src/lang/unfinished/frisian.txt (2014-02-18 18:45:08 UTC)
18:45:16 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:17 <DorpsGek> frisian - 22 changes by Geoloep
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19:33:51 * andythenorth played a game for a bit yesterday
19:33:58 <andythenorth> but then had to fix a newgrf for 40 mins :P
19:34:35 <Alberth> all developers seem to have that problem :)
19:34:40 <andythenorth> do the rest of you not find FIRS a bit too intricate btw?
19:34:47 <Eddi|zuHause> as soon as you start playing the metagame, you can't enjoy the game anymore
19:34:54 <andythenorth> too many connections contending in FIRS
19:35:08 <andythenorth> spoils the fun of original TTD imo
19:35:13 <Pinkbeast> FIRS: nah, it's not like one has to move every cargo
19:35:26 <Eddi|zuHause> because you get incomfortable with the game limitations, you think about how easily they could be extended
19:35:30 * andythenorth is playing a GS challenge (Silicon Valley)
19:35:47 <andythenorth> so I have to move farm cargos to a town
19:35:51 <andythenorth> and manufacturing supplies
19:36:05 <andythenorth> to get man. supplies I need metal, which means coal, iron and scrap
19:36:14 <Pinkbeast> ... but it delays the point where there's nothing to do because everything's hooked up, without having to play on a stupidly huge map
19:36:22 <andythenorth> then I have to drop it all at a massive transfer station, and use trucks or small trains
19:36:37 <andythenorth> then I have to build another network in that mess to get farm supplies back to the farms
19:36:52 <andythenorth> and another one to get engineering supplies to the mines for coal, iron and scrap
19:36:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought that was the entire point of FIRS
19:36:56 <andythenorth> and this is just 'Basic'
19:37:13 <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't want that, play the default industries
19:37:53 <andythenorth> or I make another Basic, low-connectedness economy
19:38:26 <andythenorth> also I would restore the default station-rating-influences-industry-production behaviour....
19:38:31 <andythenorth> ...if I could understand my code
19:38:38 <andythenorth> not mine, yexo's :)
19:39:21 <frosch123> ah, the meow class belongs to the purr tracks
19:39:54 <Eddi|zuHause> wtf is a purr track?
19:40:03 <andythenorth> some questions better not asked :)
19:40:30 <Taede> its track where the meow engines start to purr
19:40:34 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that was a mistake
19:40:35 <Alberth> andythenorth: I never really bothered with the supplies
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19:40:44 <frosch123> you are an evil alien who captured the real eddi!
19:41:11 <frosch123> what did you do to him, give him back!
19:41:51 <Eddi|zuHause> he got replaced by someone who is actually trying to finish studying
19:43:15 <frosch123> sounds like eddi, let someone else finish it
19:50:04 <andythenorth> Alberth: how do you increase industry output? o_O
19:51:30 <andythenorth> maybe that is much more relaxing
19:51:43 <andythenorth> I kind of wonder about an OTTD equivalent of a fishtank :)
19:51:43 <Eddi|zuHause> that is a perfectly valid use of the game mechanics :p
19:51:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's called a title game
19:52:20 <andythenorth> or browsing servers?
19:52:47 <andythenorth> I'm really reluctant to distribute these farm supplies
19:52:54 <andythenorth> the network is boring to build and run
19:53:00 <andythenorth> can someone write an AI to do it? o_O
19:53:43 <Eddi|zuHause> put a supplies wagon on every farm train
19:54:23 <andythenorth> cargodist doesn't understand how to do it
19:54:30 <andythenorth> I tried it in a game
19:57:04 <andythenorth> let me see if I can load the save
19:57:17 <andythenorth> we discussed it before at length, but I never provided the save :|
19:57:57 <fonsinchen> I think it boiled down to the fact that no one likes the distribution by covered tiles thing
19:58:29 <fonsinchen> However, once you know how it works, you should be able to get a somewhat useful distribution of supplies
19:58:36 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, for supplies, you probably want equal amounts to every industry, independent of distance or "demand"
19:59:04 <frosch123> hmm, they changed something in the matrix
19:59:13 <fonsinchen> You can level out the demands by setting the influence of distance to 0 and covering the same number of tiles on every target.
19:59:37 * fonsinchen has seen a cat above
20:00:03 <andythenorth> can't find the save :(
20:00:05 <Eddi|zuHause> which brings us back to the problem that the demand calculation settings are global, and not per cargo(-category)
20:00:23 <andythenorth> the problem I had was trains sitting waiting for cargo
20:00:25 <frosch123> let's add 78 settings for all registered cargo labels
20:00:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i name my savegames by a random town, so i easily can distinguish different games
20:00:30 <andythenorth> with thousands of crates at the station
20:00:44 <frosch123> 3 settings per cargo ofc, so 134
20:00:57 <fonsinchen> andythenorth, that's a different problem then
20:00:58 <andythenorth> also there was somewhat conflicting advice about whether capacity influences distribution or not
20:01:21 <andythenorth> fonsinchen: yes, I wonder now if it is a bug, so trying to find save
20:01:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the stockpile at intermediate stations lowers the rating at the source station, or so
20:01:47 <fonsinchen> Capacity doesn't influence the demands, but it influences the routes the cargo will take to fulfill the demands
20:02:32 <andythenorth> Jingleville Tanner road was getting no cargo allocated
20:04:58 <andythenorth> problem #2 - non-bananas newgrfs :P
20:05:30 <Pinkbeast> "let's add 78 settings for all registered cargo labels" - yes please, even if hidden from J. Random User.
20:05:51 <andythenorth> fonsinchen: cdist bugs go on flyspray?
20:06:01 <andythenorth> frosch123: that sounds ideal :)
20:07:50 <fonsinchen> andythenorth, maybe check if you have just covered only one tile of the industry with Jingleville Tanner road and more with the other stations.
20:08:17 <fonsinchen> And look at the "Planned" view of the station GUI.
20:08:42 <andythenorth> fonsinchen: I'm making a zip of the save and newgrfs
20:09:19 <andythenorth> how do I check if the save was made with a patched ottd?
20:09:44 <fonsinchen> You crash it and look at the crash.log
20:09:48 <andythenorth> it loads in recent trunk, so I guess it's fine
20:10:05 <fonsinchen> Yes, just upload it and I will take a look at it.
20:13:46 <fonsinchen> If the win32 video driver behaves remotely similar to the SDL one it will want to be mutex-protected in ChangeResolution, ToggleFullscreen, and AfterBlitterChange, too.
20:13:55 <fonsinchen> thanks andythenorth
20:14:13 <andythenorth> I am playing for now with cdist for mail and pax, and manual for other cargos
20:14:23 <andythenorth> which is fine, but makes reverse feeder networks painful :P
20:14:36 <andythenorth> and FIRS demands a lot of reverse feeders :(
20:15:38 <andythenorth> frosch123: can SV avoid showing the 'only x towns found' message on load of a savegame?
20:16:06 <andythenorth> ah, I can use planes for distributing farm supplies
20:16:11 <andythenorth> we need new airports :P
20:16:25 <frosch123> it is said it shall be moved to the story book
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20:23:59 <andythenorth> 'double' and 'quadruple' are too much as production boost
20:24:04 <fonsinchen> andythenorth, the planned amounts are 12 crates per month to jingleville, 30 to tinklebury south, and 19 to tinklebury pit
20:24:13 <fonsinchen> The difference is not that dramatic ...
20:24:20 <andythenorth> fonsinchen: so is it just bad service causing them to pile up?
20:24:52 <fonsinchen> of course there is still a difference, part of that is due to the fact that the coal mine has 9 tiles and the pit much more
20:25:04 <andythenorth> how do I find out the planned amounts?
20:25:06 <fonsinchen> You're covering 18 tiles at tinklebury south
20:25:18 <fonsinchen> you switch to "Planned" mode in the station GUI
20:25:33 <fonsinchen> The "Waiting" text is a dropdown
20:26:39 <Pinkbeast> 3x1 dirt strip? I'm holding out for the 1x1 cannon. Transports pax and circus supplies
20:26:44 <andythenorth> so I am covering 100% of Jingleville Coal Mine
20:26:48 <andythenorth> but it's a smaller industry
20:26:52 <andythenorth> so less cargo is routed to it
20:26:55 <andythenorth> how interesting :)
20:27:10 <andythenorth> I would not have thought of that :)
20:27:26 <fonsinchen> It depends on the total tile acceptance covered
20:27:59 <fonsinchen> And then the distribution is not 100% accurate. You can increase the accuracy setting at the cost of CPU time
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20:29:43 <andythenorth> so how would I distribute more to Jingleville Coal Mine?
20:32:20 <fonsinchen> The whole thing doesn't really make sense. You cover 20 tiles at Tinklebury pit but you only get 19 crates there. Let me play around with the accuracy a bit
20:32:38 <andythenorth> how does 'planned' cargo relate to industry production?
20:32:57 <andythenorth> the amounts look like they correspond well
20:33:10 <andythenorth> industry is delivering 40% of 180 crates to station
20:33:35 <andythenorth> which is 72 crates. 62 crates are planned for delivery
20:33:45 <andythenorth> kind of matches?
20:34:29 <fonsinchen> At maximum accuracy both tinkleburies get 25 crates and jingleville gets 12
20:34:39 <fonsinchen> that's actually about correct
20:35:06 <fonsinchen> Yes, it's an average of monthly cargo
20:35:27 <Andreas> if I use {BIG_FONT} in a string, how do I return to normal font size?
20:36:33 <andythenorth> I forget, did we discover any alternatives to counting tiles covered?
20:36:47 <frosch123> Andreas: you actually cannot :p
20:37:02 <frosch123> all strings use at most one size code in the very front
20:37:21 <frosch123> mixing sizes does not really exist
20:37:49 <Andreas> well at least this time I am not stupid :p
20:38:11 <fonsinchen> Yes, I can just make that a 1 or 0 decision. If any cargo accepted, distribute to the station, otherwise not. Don't weigh it.
20:38:23 <fonsinchen> That would be a change of about 2 lines of code.
20:39:18 <frosch123> sounds like a setting per cargo class again
20:39:29 <andythenorth> sounds like it's worth trying in a patch
20:40:20 <frosch123> letting andy test a patch sounds excellent :p
20:40:43 <andythenorth> I think what I found counter-intuitive is to have 2,000 crates waiting, and they don't get reassigned
20:40:52 <andythenorth> so another train sits loading for ~long time
20:41:21 <andythenorth> I almost wonder if there should be a cargo pool at a station, and aging cargo gets reassigned
20:41:29 <andythenorth> but then that probably has unexpected consequences
20:41:45 <frosch123> cargo that waits longer than 5 days should get stolen :)
20:41:53 <andythenorth> unless you build warehouses
20:41:56 <andythenorth> then you get 10 days
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20:42:13 <andythenorth> frosch123 I don't think that's as stupid as you think it is :)
20:42:20 <andythenorth> I assume you're trolling?
20:42:37 <Pinkbeast> Simutrans has warehouses and finite station capacity and this lets you make some really _magnificent_ logjams
20:42:38 <frosch123> no, i honestly think that if you have 2000 cargo waiting
20:42:44 <frosch123> you cannot solve that with cdist
20:42:51 <frosch123> you have to remove the cargo somehow
20:43:06 <andythenorth> it would screw with people who want to use that really popular ship grf
20:43:20 <andythenorth> it's still #4 on bananas
20:43:33 <frosch123> well, that is just a matter of the timespan
20:43:54 <andythenorth> I thought cargo slowly decayed at stations?
20:44:00 <andythenorth> or did I imagine that?
20:44:00 <frosch123> well, it's fine if there is a vehicle waiting for loading
20:44:20 <frosch123> but originally cargo vanished due to low rating
20:44:36 <frosch123> with cdist you would need a rating per destination or something
20:44:43 <andythenorth> and I fucked ratings anyway with FIRS
20:44:53 <andythenorth> although I turn that off currently in my games
20:45:26 <andythenorth> - the new UI confuses me :)
20:45:40 <andythenorth> - the newgrf handling of display for waiting is borderline stupid :)
20:45:48 <andythenorth> - and waiting cargo should disappear if not collected?
20:46:29 <frosch123> i do not exactly know how cargo rating currently works at transfer stations
20:46:57 <frosch123> and how low of a rating you can get if you service only some destinations badly
20:47:17 <andythenorth> it's a puzzle eh?
20:49:09 <andythenorth> I spend too much time in games looking at overflowing transfer stations :D
20:49:36 <andythenorth> this might be somewhat self-inflicted due to....
20:49:43 <andythenorth> - FIRS 'improved' station rating
20:50:05 <andythenorth> - FIRS quadruple production multiplier at primaries, and boost behaviour at secondaries
20:50:26 <andythenorth> - CHIPS gives the impression of a lot of cargo waiting :P
20:50:54 <andythenorth> - I use a lot of slow things like trams and ships :(
20:51:23 <andythenorth> it's not a problem in default game, just add more trains, more platforms, build high-capacity ro-ro stations :P
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20:57:39 <fonsinchen> If you change demands.cpp:123 to just return from.Supply() you get 24/17/15 crates with default accuracy and 19/19/16 with maximum accuracy
20:57:56 <fonsinchen> I doubt that this would make a real difference in that game.
20:59:18 <andythenorth> nah probably not :)
20:59:51 <andythenorth> the dist. looks like it is doing the right thing
21:00:07 <andythenorth> the main confusion arises from the amounts waiting + I don't understand the station UI
21:00:24 <andythenorth> when explained, it makes sense
21:02:29 <fonsinchen> The supplies must have been piling up there for about 3 game years at that rate of production.
21:03:04 <fonsinchen> You might have considered increasing the capacity on that route before. That's what cargodist is about, you know ...
21:03:07 <frosch123> what is the cargo rating at those transfer stations?
21:03:18 <andythenorth> and at Tinklebury South cargo is piling up
21:03:25 <fonsinchen> It's not a transfer station, it's the origin
21:03:40 <andythenorth> there is one transfer - 80%
21:03:44 <andythenorth> the source is 40%
21:03:56 <frosch123> hmm cargo vanishes only at < 25%, right?
21:04:38 <fonsinchen> I've never actually done the math on the piece of code that discards cargo
21:04:39 <frosch123> in what order is cargo loaded onto vehicles?
21:04:57 <frosch123> does it pick random packages? or does the age of packets have any influence?
21:04:58 <fonsinchen> First by next hop, then by age
21:05:13 <frosch123> hmm, actually ... cargo does not age at stations
21:05:22 <frosch123> so it all has age 0 at the origin
21:05:26 <frosch123> maybe that is the problem :p
21:11:12 <andythenorth> fonsinchen: wrt to increasing capacity, FIRS is in conflict with cdist there :(
21:11:19 <andythenorth> I think FIRS is doing it wrong tbh
21:11:34 <andythenorth> FIRS wants only small cargo amounts
21:11:44 <fonsinchen> That's fine for cargodist
21:11:57 <fonsinchen> some 10 to 30 crates is a small amount
21:12:26 <fonsinchen> just make sure you actually deliver them to where they want to go and don't leave them around for 3 years
21:14:56 <frosch123> andythenorth: your transporting staff is quite corrupt. there is not enough capacity to transport all, so they take bribes on what to transport
21:15:04 <frosch123> that decreases the efficiency overall
21:15:27 <andythenorth> it's common in FIRS games to have a lot of cargo piling up
21:15:27 <frosch123> those industries who do not get enough supplies did not bribe enough
21:15:51 <frosch123> andythenorth: add a setting for controlling the influence of amounts?
21:16:15 <frosch123> some supplies: +10%, +20%, +50%
21:16:23 <andythenorth> I think that's necessary
21:16:30 <frosch123> lots supplies: +20%, +100%, +200%
21:16:39 <andythenorth> I did 200% and 400% when we were playing 2 hour long NoCarGoal games
21:16:47 <andythenorth> and we needed cargo fast
21:17:13 <andythenorth> I really think I should restore the standard production behaviour, and then layer supply boost on top
21:17:20 <andythenorth> but I don't understand Yexo's code :)
21:18:27 <andythenorth> I would rather that supplies adjusted the production multiplier instead
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21:25:46 <andythenorth> frosch123: thanks. What do you think about also restoring default prod multiplier behaviour?
21:25:50 <andythenorth> and having supplies adjust that
21:26:07 <frosch123> we tried in the past and considered it terrible
21:26:09 <andythenorth> it's much fiddlier to code I think
21:26:28 <frosch123> the idea of supplies was that they only affect production temporarily, not permanently
21:26:41 <andythenorth> I've also considered some random weighting
21:26:46 <andythenorth> for 'efficiency' or such
21:26:55 <andythenorth> so that some industries demand more supplies
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21:27:08 <frosch123> sounds like details which noone notices :p
21:27:32 <andythenorth> I can't patch that tonight, but will look tomorrow
21:27:40 <andythenorth> need to add action 14 and such
21:33:28 <frosch123> andythenorth: the way the supplies are coded is actually funny. it does not conflict with the change-production-cheat
21:33:32 <frosch123> you can use them in parallel
21:33:41 <andythenorth> that is pretty useful imho
21:33:49 <andythenorth> I use it for testing all the time :)
21:33:56 <andythenorth> and it's nice not to break cheats
21:36:10 <andythenorth> dakotas delivering supplies
21:36:23 <andythenorth> planes, always planes
21:36:30 <andythenorth> looks a bit silly at farms
21:36:35 <andythenorth> maybe I should add a crop duster
21:36:51 <andythenorth> can new airports state machine support flying at 3m above fields?
21:37:32 <Kjetil> Supersonic cropduster ?
21:37:43 <Andreas> hehe that actually sounds kinda nice
21:38:37 <Andreas> Kjetil, speeds, distances and dimentions are out of proportion anyway so not much harm can be done in that respect imho
21:44:13 <andythenorth> could station tiles show 1 cargo from a list of n meeting the thresholds?
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22:09:50 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> no, i honestly think that if you have 2000 cargo waiting <-- but how do you define the limit? i had perfectly well working stations with 11000 passengers waiting
22:10:20 <frosch123> i read in andy's case the cargo was 3 years old or so
22:11:15 <Eddi|zuHause> in theory(tm) the station rating should take care of not overloading the network, but nobody has managed to get this to work properly
22:11:42 <frosch123> i thought about that earlier, but i don't think it's the right thing
22:12:08 <frosch123> you make it less obvious for the player, where the problem is
22:12:25 <V453000> too much unnecessary game control :)
22:12:28 <frosch123> so, it should not prevent the overload, just cut what is way too much
22:12:35 <V453000> just let the players struggle, let them have too much cargo so they can never win
22:12:48 <Eddi|zuHause> it initially sounds like the right place, but then there is industry growth and closure tied to it, plus the cargo disappearing mid-way if ratings are <50%, which make it work bad...
22:13:44 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but on huge map there mey very well be valid routes that take 3 years
22:13:59 <frosch123> but not at a single station
22:14:05 <planetmaker> especially on 4096^2
22:14:18 <Eddi|zuHause> but if they get transferred close to the end?
22:14:21 <andythenorth> hmm, do we support 0/8 long vehicles? o_O
22:14:32 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i am not talking about absolute cargo age
22:14:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: unfortunately not, would make a few problems easier
22:14:43 <frosch123> but more like time waiting at a station since last unload
22:14:47 <Andreas> well if cargo is in tranit for scu long times you won't make much money, not even without cargodist
22:14:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: indeed :P
22:15:09 <andythenorth> with 3 part vehicles, a 2/8 long vehicle is no-go :P
22:15:32 <andythenorth> that is a problem when the graphics are drawn for 2/8
22:16:03 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's why i don't make short vehicles with 3 parts
22:16:17 *** kais58_ is now known as kais58|AFK
22:16:26 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: also, i don't make vehicles of length 2 :p
22:16:26 <andythenorth> that makes sense
22:16:38 <andythenorth> I don't fancy recoding all of Iron Horse again though
22:16:44 <andythenorth> it's getting kind of boring
22:16:47 <frosch123> make all vehicle lengths multiple of 8
22:17:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, that's why i put this stuff into a table, so it can easily be adjusted
22:17:44 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I am not as clever as you :)
22:17:53 <Eddi|zuHause> in theory(again tm) it can do more than 3 parts as well
22:17:54 <andythenorth> I can't even fathom how to write a code generator
22:18:20 <Eddi|zuHause> it's totally easy: read input, transform data, write output
22:19:01 <andythenorth> it's also easy for you to speak german :)
22:19:21 <andythenorth> these are 3/8 long
22:19:26 <andythenorth> maybe I dodge this bullet :)
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