IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-01-14
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00:10:33 <NGC3982> Well hey, the year 50000000 unending server loop got the best of me.
00:10:54 <NGC3982> And we haven't even filled a tenth of the map
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09:34:00 <peter1139> Log in with the password ‘(old password)/(new password)/(new password)’
09:34:14 <peter1139> Stupid password change system :S
09:35:18 <Rubidium> changing password is good!
09:35:37 <Rubidium> especially when it's done often
09:36:01 <Rubidium> mostly because then the ones that have a good, and long password will revert to using a simple one that IT can actually recover easily by brute force
09:36:50 <peter1139> Oh, the password has to be chosen from a predetermined list.
09:37:02 <peter1139> Letters and numbers only.
09:37:16 <peter1139> (Obviously / wouldn't work anyway)
09:37:23 <Rubidium> what's even worse, is that the administrator password does not even fullfil the requirements but doesn't need to be changed ever
09:38:31 <Xaroth|Work> i still find it funny that some find 'horsedonkeybollocksite' to be 'less secure' than 123Qwe!@ :|
09:39:31 <Rubidium> Xaroth|Work: just use 1qaz!QAZ (on Qwerty keyboards); fullfils almost all requirements, and easy to remember
09:43:26 <peter1139> Oh yeah, this is on a system that is meant to be automated...
09:59:57 <Eddi|zuHause> am i the only one thinking that "input <format> into field" probably means the password is sent unhashed/clear text?
10:11:09 <V453000> no I totally think the same
10:18:52 <dihedral> <Rubidium> what's even worse, is that the administrator password does not even fullfil the requirements but doesn't need to be changed ever <- i love that one :-)
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14:40:50 <abdu354> Convert to Islam now!
14:41:37 <Superuser> connecting from Indonesia I see abdu354
14:41:47 <Pinkbeast> I only convert to a GIANT ROBOT.
14:42:07 <Japa_> I only convert to metric.
14:42:08 <Superuser> Surabaya Timur Area
14:43:26 <Pinkbeast> ... say yes to a kickban
14:45:40 <abdu354> Save palestinian people from israeli
14:45:56 *** abdu354 is now known as abdu
14:46:03 <__ln__> is there a newgrf for that?
14:46:25 <lugo> maybe peter wrote a patch
14:48:30 <__ln__> abdu: are you sure you are not a spammer?
14:49:08 <abdu> [$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$][]
14:49:43 <lugo> i guess that means yes in spammerish
14:51:00 <Superuser> I played e-Sim myself
14:51:09 <Superuser> it's a shit game sorry pal
14:51:13 <Japa_> Rubidium, I think we have need of your footwear
14:51:26 <Superuser> sign in, click your 'dailies', sign out
14:51:26 * abdu slaps Japa_ around a bit with a large trout
14:51:48 <Superuser> sorry for the bad words mods
14:51:50 *** Rubidium sets mode: +q abdu!*@*
14:51:55 <Superuser> abdu: e-Sim; it's rubbish
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14:57:31 <__ln__> Guest3786: how old are you?
14:59:05 <Superuser> he ctcp fingered me
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15:09:11 <rubenwardy> Can you add a newgrf to an already started game?
15:10:00 <Pinkbeast> rubenwardy: Yes. It's not a good idea, though, and the facility for doing so is well hidden.
15:10:29 <rubenwardy> The ones I am adding don't modify any tiles, just adds new ones.
15:11:01 <rubenwardy> Buffers, new vechiles.
15:13:26 <rubenwardy> I am a fairly good computer user :P
15:17:07 <rubenwardy> Where is the thing to add them? I have enabled scenario_developer, but there is no new stuff in load > game > newgrf settings
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16:01:01 <Xaroth|Work> if you don't agree with it, don't use it?
16:01:08 <Rubidium> it just overrides all vehicles
16:01:50 <Rubidium> that's what NewGRFs do; override basic vehicles (or occasionally add them), but mostly override because they don't want the original vehicles to remain when you use their NewGRF
16:02:57 <Xaroth|Work> if you don't agree with it, don't use it?
16:03:37 <rubenwardy> It will take me about 30 mins to then deactivate it
16:04:04 <Pinkbeast> Xaroth|Work: I imagine rubenwardy won't, but that doesn't mean that the decision on the part of the newgrf author is not a questionable one.
16:04:29 <Xaroth|Work> Pinkbeast: I disagree; the newgrf author has a vision for his/her newgrf, for example, a balancing vision
16:05:10 <Xaroth|Work> if they then didn't replace the original vehicles, that balance could simply be avoided by not using those vehicles
16:05:44 <rubenwardy> "a balancing vision" - Let's make the player transfer goods by foot on the roads!
16:06:35 <Pinkbeast> Xaroth|Work: That doesn't mean that their vision is one that promotes useful gameplay - for example, by adding busses and removing all other vehicles.
16:06:49 <Xaroth|Work> if you don't agree with it, don't use it?
16:06:50 <Pinkbeast> Xaroth|Work: And in this case, it seems more likely that it is a simple error.
16:07:04 <Pinkbeast> Xaroth|Work: Yes. Since you have now said that several times, it is safe to assume we have read it.
16:07:15 <Xaroth|Work> if you think it's a bug, you shouldn't be calling it stupid, you should be filing a bugreport to the newgrf author
16:07:25 <Pinkbeast> Xaroth|Work: But as I said, while not using it, rubenwardy is at liberty to find the decision dubious.
16:07:31 <rubenwardy> Newgrf's are incredibly baddy designed.
16:07:39 <rubenwardy> They should be server side
16:07:47 <Pinkbeast> You'll find rubenwardy has already reported this issue in the thread (which might not be the ideal spot, but...)
16:08:14 <Xaroth|Work> rubenwardy: they -are- server-side?
16:08:22 <Xaroth|Work> try joining a server without the required newgrfs...
16:08:36 <rubenwardy> You have to then download the newgrfs
16:08:42 <rubenwardy> the server should send it to you
16:08:52 <rubenwardy> As images and cpp tables
16:09:19 <Xaroth|Work> then the server owner would have to have permission from the author to distribute it
16:09:57 <rubenwardy> Which the mod maker would supply
16:10:08 <rubenwardy> And it's not really redistributing
16:10:10 <Xaroth|Work> ok, you just made the best joke of 2014, so far
16:10:16 <rubenwardy> See how Minetest does it
16:10:38 <Xaroth|Work> have you any idea how much people can bitch and whine about a distribution system like bananananananas?
16:10:56 <rubenwardy> I have no idea what that is
16:11:03 <Xaroth|Work> the content system openttd uses
16:11:14 <rubenwardy> All the mods I make are LGPL or CC-BY-SA 3.0
16:11:21 <rubenwardy> ND and NC clauses are evil
16:11:27 <blathijs> 17:10:08 < rubenwardy> And it's not really redistributing <-- Copyright law disagrees with you there, AFAIK
16:11:36 <Xaroth|Work> yes, -you- might make them lgpl and cc, but that doesn't mean others do
16:11:37 <Pinkbeast> rubenwardy: But how do you propose to require that in general newgrf authors do that?
16:11:44 <Xaroth|Work> blathijs: it does
16:12:03 <rubenwardy> Server side mods, you can add/delete at will.
16:12:19 <Pinkbeast> OK; how does Minetest require that mod authors make them so redistributable?
16:12:27 <Rubidium> rubenwardy: please start in Hollywood that they are stupid for not allowing to redistribute their content
16:13:05 <Pinkbeast> rubenwardy: So the "answer" is to ignore the redistribution requirements of the mod.
16:13:25 <Xaroth|Work> Pinkbeast: requirements? they are hardly requirements if they are enforced by law
16:13:27 <rubenwardy> It isn't really redistribution: redistribution would be reposting it on the internet again. It is transfering the textures and table defs to the client.
16:13:43 <Pinkbeast> rubenwardy: ie, distributing them to the client.
16:13:50 <rubenwardy> If that was the system in place, then no one would complain about it
16:13:50 <Pinkbeast> Xaroth|Work: Please don't confuse the issue with incomprehension.
16:13:51 <Xaroth|Work> rubenwardy: but you -are- redistributing, the data of the 'mod' is being sent by that server, to that client
16:14:15 <Xaroth|Work> copyright law states as such
16:14:21 <rubenwardy> How does Minetest work if that is the case?
16:14:30 <Xaroth|Work> by not following the copyright law?
16:14:38 <Pinkbeast> rubenwardy: If you mean that in practice most people would turn a blind eye, yes. That is not quite the same as saying it is legal.
16:14:44 <Xaroth|Work> the fact nobody sued them does not mean what they do is allowed
16:15:05 <rubenwardy> ND clauses are evil, and should be banned in open source projects.
16:15:12 <Pinkbeast> rubenwardy: And in OTTD land I think you could be absolutely sure that someone would kick up a fuss, like those idiots who put junk advertising newgrfs into Bananas to advertise their own sites.
16:15:17 <Pinkbeast> rubenwardy: That does not mean they do not exist.
16:15:24 <rubenwardy> Any way, don't use ND mods on servers
16:15:35 <rubenwardy> That is the solution
16:15:49 <Xaroth|Work> rubenwardy: ban them all you want, but if people release things under a nd license, you can't force them not to use it
16:15:57 <rubenwardy> Any way, don't use ND mods on servers
16:16:12 <Rubidium> maybe Minetest had distributing before the mods existed, in which case making the mod makes you kinda accept the distribution. For OpenTTD the mods existed way before the network stuff, so there's no implicit acceptation for distribution
16:16:19 <Pinkbeast> rubenwardy: And if OTTD newgrfs had computer-comprehensible meta-information about redistribution, that might be a workable approach.
16:16:50 <rubenwardy> Pinkbeast, do you mean DRMs.
16:17:24 <Xaroth|Work> you can state 'don't use ND mods on servers' all you want, but the people hosting the server are within their right, and the people playing on them are too
16:17:31 <Pinkbeast> rubenwardy: If I meant "DRM", I would have said it.
16:17:38 <Xaroth|Work> and until they aren't, you can't do anything about it
16:18:03 <rubenwardy> They can use ND mods on servers, but it would "be illegal"
16:18:07 <Pinkbeast> rubenwardy: I mean that _if_ OTTD newgrfs contained such information, _then_ the server could redistribute them if and only if it was permitted.
16:18:17 <Xaroth|Work> rubenwardy: and what law states that?
16:18:50 <rubenwardy> Copyright law, duh.
16:18:58 <Xaroth|Work> that law does not prohibit them from using it
16:19:02 <Xaroth|Work> as long as they don't distribute it
16:19:29 <blathijs> Xaroth|Work: Well, if you just make OpenTTD redistribute the newgrfs you put into it, then putting ND newgrfs in there and letting clients join will make server admins violate copyright law, I guess
16:19:36 <rubenwardy> Under US copyright law, sending textures etc to the client would be considered a core function of the system and would be allowed under the same rules that allow things like loading the program into memory in order to run it.
16:20:07 <Xaroth|Work> since when are you a copyright lawyer, lolz
16:20:07 <Pinkbeast> Rubidium: EXPN TMTFTLB ?
16:20:18 <Xaroth|Work> Too Much Talk, For Too Little Benefit
16:20:19 <Rubidium> rubenwardy: but we need to send the logic too, due to the way OpenTTD works
16:20:23 <rubenwardy> According to my lawyer friend on IRC
16:20:36 <Rubidium> Pinkbeast: too much trouble for too little benefit
16:20:48 <Pinkbeast> Xaroth|Work: Errr so that makes no sense to say to me, since I was explaining to rubenwardy why their idea would be a lot of work.
16:21:11 <blathijs> rubenwardy: Interesting view, but I'm not so sure that's true. Loading a program to memory is within the context of a single user. In a client/server system, you distribute something from one user to another, which I'd expect to be relevant.
16:21:12 <Rubidium> rubenwardy: did you tell him that the textures and all logic of the NewGRF needed to be sent to the client; effectively everything but comments
16:21:40 <rubenwardy> What does logic imply? Scripts?
16:21:42 <Pinkbeast> Unreal Tournament used to do this with mods, but again I suspect that was done by turning a blind eye.
16:21:52 <Rubidium> rubenwardy: scripts, code, etc
16:22:04 <rubenwardy> If you sent scripts, it won't be server side
16:22:16 <rubenwardy> The scripts need to be run on the server
16:22:27 <Pinkbeast> rubenwardy: Er, do you know how OTTD implements multiplayer?
16:22:28 <Rubidium> game scripts and AIs need to be ran at the server
16:22:37 <blathijs> Pinkbeast: Probably they just moved the burden to server admins, (technically) requiring them to check the redistributibility of mods
16:22:42 <Xaroth|Work> Pinkbeast: if he did he wouldn't be having this discussion
16:22:43 <Rubidium> the logic of NewGRFs (when what image it to be shown) needs to be at the server and client side
16:22:57 <rubenwardy> It's a bit late to do this to OpenTTD, but it should have been designed like that when it was built
16:23:09 <rubenwardy> Pinkbeast: irrelevant, see above.
16:23:16 <Pinkbeast> blathijs: That's exactly what I'd do, yes, in the expectation that they'd ignore it completely and everyone would be happy.
16:23:41 <Pinkbeast> rubenwardy: Not really; your proposal implies a complete reconstruction of that architecture, just to save people a bit of newgrf downloading.
16:24:11 <rubenwardy> No, to make NewGRF's logical, and to make them be able to enable/disable with out terrible effects.
16:24:28 <Rubidium> and people need vast internet pipes to get the sprites to the client
16:24:34 <blathijs> Pinkbeast: Huh? You mean dropping the parallel simulation principle of OTTD?
16:24:38 <rubenwardy> Oh. ND is non-derivative.
16:25:08 * blathijs suspects everyone in this discussion has been using it to mean Non-Distributible
16:25:10 <Pinkbeast> rubenwardy: "Making them logical" isn't a statement about actual effects for users; and nothing in what you've written solves the enable-disable problem.
16:25:16 <Xaroth|Work> blathijs: I think he means rewriting the entire netcode
16:25:40 <Rubidium> generally a screen contains over a thousand sprites, with X and Y and the sprite ID... that would be 12 kB / frame -> 400 kB/s per client
16:25:59 <Pinkbeast> blathijs: I've been talking about mods that can't be redistributed.
16:26:05 <Rubidium> instead of the way less than 1 kB/s per client right now
16:26:21 <Pinkbeast> blathijs: I figured I'd leave the "CC-ND isn't actually that" surprise for later. :-)
16:26:48 <Pinkbeast> blathijs: If all scripts are to be only server-side, as rubenwardy suggests, yes, parallel simulation is gone.
16:26:49 <rubenwardy> What is the enable-disable problem? My understanding is that it is just missing tiles/scripts/etc
16:26:56 <Pinkbeast> rubenwardy: Well, you're wrong.
16:27:19 <Pinkbeast> rubenwardy: NewGRFs can have all manner of side effects.
16:27:25 <Rubidium> as I said... TMTFTLB
16:27:34 <Xaroth|Work> Rubidium: meh, bit of smart compression, then again, 400kB/s isn't -that- bad
16:27:54 <blathijs> Xaroth|Work: We could even use the VNC protocol, then! ;-p
16:28:20 <Xaroth|Work> blathijs: <insert witty comment containin XML here> :P
16:28:26 <Rubidium> Xaroth|Work: ofcourse you can compress stuff, but then you add even more complexity
16:28:39 <Xaroth|Work> Rubidium: aye, hence why I agree, TMTFTLB
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16:29:16 <blathijs> Pinkbeast: But I thought that rubenwardy's initial suggestion was to send over newgrfs from the server to the client on join, though reading back it seems that indeed he thinks NewGRFs should be "server side", whatever that means
16:29:38 <Xaroth|Work> blathijs: from what I gather, exactly that; the server distributes them so the clients have the proper textures
16:29:55 <Pinkbeast> blathijs: Suppose you think that newgrfs are nicely divided "art and vehicle stats" and "other gameplay logic".
16:29:57 <rubenwardy> Script run on server, definitions on server, mods on server. Textures sent to client, as well as definitions.
16:30:17 <Pinkbeast> blathijs: Then the former is sent by the server, and the latter is run on the server. (You also don't know how multiplayer works).
16:30:51 <rubenwardy> This whole US Copyright law thing with redistribution. It is legal because it falls under "Fair Use". Heh
16:30:54 <blathijs> rubenwardy: Not sure if you got this point by now, but OpenTTD uses parallel simulation: every client and the server do the same calculations for simulating the game world, only (player) actions are sent over the network. This means that all logic of all newgrfs must be available on all clients.
16:31:11 <Rubidium> rubenwardy: that doesn't work with OpenTTD's design, doing a redesign makes OpenTTD use way more bandwidth
16:31:17 <Pinkbeast> rubenwardy: "Heh" indeed, as in that is an oh-so-funny idea.
16:31:21 <blathijs> rubenwardy: This is why "keeping NewGRFs on the server" is not really a useful idea for OpenTTD
16:31:41 <rubenwardy> As I said earlier, this can't be done now, but it could have been thought of in the design process.
16:31:43 <Xaroth|Work> Rubidium: would be a "fun" project ... to see....
16:32:48 <planetmaker> rubenwardy, if one would design a game like OpenTTD from scratch, one would do many things differently. But sure it wouldn#t be OpenTTD either
16:33:04 <Rubidium> rubenwardy: then I still think the design process would have chosen the same path w.r.t. network design
16:33:13 <blathijs> rubenwardy: It's not a matter of "We would have done it differently if". It's not just that changing the approach is a lot of work, it also means (as Rubidium showed) that we'd get a whole new bunch of fundamental problems, like big bandwidth usage and added latency)
16:33:17 <Pinkbeast> Wasn't the NewGRF design originally invented for TTDP ?
16:33:39 <Pinkbeast> Er well I think the bandwidth usage is a bit of a contrived case
16:34:03 <blathijs> Pinkbeast: I believe it would be many times bigger than right now
16:34:46 <Xaroth|Work> blathijs: tbh the latency/bandwidth issues would be 'solvable'.. the main issue more is, I think, that it'll take an excessive amount of work to get this done.. and, as Rubidium stated: TMTFTLB
16:34:51 <blathijs> Pinkbeast: Though if you actually copy sprites to the client and just send over drawing instructions, things might improve a bit, but it'd still be a lot more than now
16:34:55 <Pinkbeast> blathijs: I don't. If you were designing it from scratch with a conventional client-server architecture, you wouldn't be blatting sprite appearances every frame.
16:35:17 <Rubidium> Pinkbeast: really? I'm seeing quite often that people can't download the savegame for MP. Those usually show that there are a lot of people that have like 150 kB/s bandwidth
16:35:40 <Rubidium> most of the time it's server side. Then the server can't run with more than one user before it buckles
16:36:20 <Pinkbeast> Rubidium: I think the figure for bandwidth usage is silly, not that people all have that much bandwidth so who cares.
16:36:24 <rubenwardy> Anyway, the developers are pretty good to have made a game in SDL and C++: pretty low level.
16:36:32 <planetmaker> I guess the few major server we have could probably handle that as they're likely located in data centres
16:37:04 <planetmaker> however playing with a adhoc setup started from your home PC would likely then not work nicely any longer
16:37:18 <Rubidium> Pinkbeast: why is it silly?
16:37:23 <Rubidium> or rather, what is silly about it?
16:37:52 <Pinkbeast> Rubidium: Because as I said to blathijs, in a conventional network game architecture, you're not going to be blatting the appearance of every sprite on screen across each frame.
16:38:20 <Rubidium> Pinkbeast: then what do you expect us to send over?
16:39:11 <Rubidium> most games I know are synchronizing game state, i.e. sending differences
16:39:14 <Pinkbeast> Rubidium: "vehicle X, sprite Y". (Yes, I am aware that the present NewGRF architecture makes this unlikely).
16:39:44 <Rubidium> OpenTTD does this to the extreme by only sending the inputs for the game logic
16:39:51 <rubenwardy> That's called Serialisation in game networking terms, Rubidium.
16:39:58 <rubenwardy> (At least according to RakNet)
16:40:00 <Rubidium> if you were to put all the game logic in the server, then you need to send the game state to the client
16:40:10 <Rubidium> or... the game state changes
16:40:23 <rubenwardy> Meh, serialisation is turning the properties into sendable data.
16:40:44 <rubenwardy> My lawyer says "tell them that the basic rule is that if it can't be done any other way, if this is core to how it functions, a copyright infringement suit would most likely fail.
16:40:44 <rubenwardy> and if they say someone can still sue, tell them ANYONE can sue for ANYTHING.
16:41:00 <Rubidium> every tick vehicles move, trees grow and whatever. Sending the difference between two ticks is, for somewhat larger games with lots of vehicles, going to require even more bandwidth
16:41:06 <rubenwardy> I could due you if you told me to go to hell.
16:41:06 <rubenwardy> I'd lose, but I could still sue.
16:41:06 <rubenwardy> (welcome to American justice :-/ )"
16:41:41 <Pinkbeast> rubenwardy: So your law student friend hasn't really had it explained.
16:41:48 <Rubidium> rubenwardy: but I think you haven't understood American justice... usually the one with the most lawyers and/or money wins because the other side goes bankrupt
16:42:08 <rubenwardy> I posted a copy of the talk to her, and she knows openttd
16:42:09 <Rubidium> since we have barely any money, we lose by default
16:42:32 <Pinkbeast> rubenwardy: If I want to stream you a movie across the Internet, distributing you that movie is core to the function etc etc. I guarantee you, I'll still lose in court because the function is fundamentally infringing.
16:42:54 <Pinkbeast> Rubidium: Er, well, the proposal puts the burden on OTTD server operators.
16:43:39 <rubenwardy> She says "um, no", Rubidium.
16:43:51 <rubenwardy> ""he difference there is streaming a movie is not a core function of the product in question. the product would continue to function without streaming the video
16:44:04 <rubenwardy> "but the product can't function without sending the code and data files to all clients."
16:44:18 <Pinkbeast> rubenwardy: The "product" does function _right now_.
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16:44:21 <rubenwardy> [WARNING!] Module logic.py not found.
16:44:52 <rubenwardy> (that was to her, not you Pinkbeast)
16:45:52 <rubenwardy> She's given up "well in this case there's no legit claim"
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16:47:17 <Xaroth|Work> and then one realises this discussion has been going on for >45 minutes.......
16:49:07 <rubenwardy> Time for some c++ development!
16:49:36 <Pinkbeast> rubenwardy: If you like, I can explain the misconception there.
16:49:56 <rubenwardy> What stops a newgrf in OpenTTD from being able to supply an install/uninstall function?
16:51:10 <Pinkbeast> rubenwardy: No support for same, and since the decision to so discourage loading/unloading during a game, I doubt you'll ever see it.
16:51:33 <rubenwardy> So nothing technical, just lack of support? Ok.
16:52:06 <Pinkbeast> Er well in the sense that everything one might like which is not provably impossible is in that category
16:53:12 <Pinkbeast> It's tricky, though, since NewGRFs can be a tangled mess around each other.
16:54:16 <rubenwardy> I can't see any newgrfs that add Highways/motorways/dualcarrige ways/etc. Is it not done yet, not possible, or have I missed it?
16:54:46 <Pinkbeast> Doesn't exist, and having map tiles interact like that would be... tricky
16:54:51 <planetmaker> it's not done from having game effect. But there's a NewGRF which adds the illusion
16:54:58 <planetmaker> Dutch Road Furniture
16:55:41 <rubenwardy> You would just need two one way roads linked together, but the logistics of doing the linking etc is overly complicated, I imagine.
16:56:03 * rubenwardy is optimising his road network
16:56:11 <Pinkbeast> On one-way roads, RVs don't use both lanes usefully, even now.
16:56:27 <planetmaker> yeah, they're mostly pointless
16:56:27 <Pinkbeast> And RV routing is terribad at using two parallel roads effectively. :-/
17:07:00 <rubenwardy> What do you think of having leaderboards that show stuff like average time played in a level, top players, largest cities, largest infrastructure.
17:07:13 <rubenwardy> other than the obvious security risks / cheating
17:13:18 <rubenwardy> Does the productivity of a farm decrease if it is surrounded by rails?
17:13:55 <Pinkbeast> Also, farms are jolly useful for local authority opinion; field->trees->field->trees etc
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17:31:23 <rubenwardy> Why doesn't "drive on left" work?
17:32:15 <Eddi|zuHause> can only be changed before you start a game
17:32:25 <Pinkbeast> rubenwardy: It does. It can't be changed in a running game.
17:32:37 <Pinkbeast> Oh, beat me to it, Eddi|zuHause. :-)
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17:53:17 <planetmaker> Can't you change it after start when there's no vehicles yet?
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17:53:43 <Pinkbeast> planetmaker: I thought so, but not totally sure.
17:55:15 <planetmaker> seems to be the case
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18:05:29 * rubenwardy is actually getting better at OpenTTD! Shock horror!
18:06:12 <planetmaker> what's your scale of success?
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18:07:32 <rubenwardy> Haven't gone bankrupt yet
18:07:52 <Pinkbeast> Are you sure you aren't playing Simutrans? :-)
18:07:52 <rubenwardy> Good cashflow, lot's of assets
18:08:55 <glx> it is possible to go bankrupt ? ;)
18:09:44 <rubenwardy> But out of money, and liquidated by bank.
18:09:50 <planetmaker> with everything default it needs some cunning, thouigh
18:11:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i've had some games where the beginning i almost went bankrupt, but once you have a significant network up, it's practically impossible
18:12:12 <planetmaker> well. you need to know how to make money
18:12:52 <planetmaker> for instance. Or passenger
18:13:01 <rubenwardy> My city went from 2,000 population to 7,000 population. Some servers have 1,000,000 pop
18:13:36 <planetmaker> that's feasible, yes
18:13:46 <planetmaker> but 1M does take considerable time
18:13:49 <Eddi|zuHause> it depends heavily on which newgrfs you use
18:13:50 <planetmaker> and some planning
18:20:06 <rubenwardy> Can you automatically change a old bus to a new bus?
18:21:19 <Eddi|zuHause> to a bus of the same model (if still available) under advanced settings->autorenew, and to a new model under vehicle list->manage list->replace vehicles
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18:52:13 * frosch123 wonders whether pm and zeph have seen total recall
18:52:37 <frosch123> (the 1990 version, i haven't seen the 2012 one myself)
18:54:11 <rubenwardy> What happens if the borders between two towns (or cities) merge?
18:54:25 <Eddi|zuHause> a big nothing happens
18:54:40 <frosch123> rubenwardy: the citizens start to hate each other even more
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18:57:08 <Alberth> presumably, it's the pre-recall era :)
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19:23:03 <Eddi|zuHause> come to think of it, i don't remember seeing either version
19:49:56 <Eddi|zuHause> nothing is ever new
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19:50:16 <Eddi|zuHause> by the time you can determine whether something was new, it got already old
19:53:42 <frosch123> andythenorth: the forums are discussing how to get an atmosphere on mars, and noone has seen total recall (1990)
19:54:49 <andythenorth> that is actually important news :)
19:55:42 <frosch123> on other important news: i cleaned dishes, and can make coffee now :p
19:56:07 <andythenorth> also important :)
19:57:00 <andythenorth> how is smoke? o_O
19:58:19 <frosch123> i wanted to cleanup the first diff, but then did something else :p
20:13:09 <Rubidium> why would you need a clean dish for coffee? Don't you need cups for that?
20:15:42 <andythenorth> frosch123: coffee self-cleans any container
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20:20:39 <Hadrien> hi ! I have a dev question, is there someone to help me ?
20:22:57 <__ln__> if the question is "should i add a space before the questionmark and exclamation mark in english?", then the answer is no.
20:23:53 <Hadrien> Oh, sorry. I'll try to do my best as i'm just a poor french trying to speak english! < note that
20:25:29 <__ln__> that's one easy way to spot even those frenchmen that speak pretty fluent english otherwise. :)
20:25:48 <Hadrien> I'm trying to update the daylengh to patch to the latest revision, but i'm a just a beginner in C++ (i've learned C before). My problem is the headers "/src/table/settings.h" was removed after the version 1.1.5 and was dispatched in others files.
20:25:49 <frosch123> i like to put a space in front of ? as well
20:26:23 <frosch123> Hadrien: the header is now generated from settings.ini and .ini friends
20:26:44 <Hadrien> oh ok, i'll look at it!
20:27:32 <Hadrien> why? is this a nightmare i'm entering into?
20:28:18 <frosch123> when you talk about daylength roll a D20
20:28:59 <frosch123> 1-10 you are talking to a troll, 11-19 you are talking to a douchebag, 20 you are talking to someone who contributed to your discussion
20:29:24 <Wolf01> I started it all, years ago, and I'm still frustrated
20:30:34 <Hadrien> :D so you are in doubt concerning a beginner to manage to update the patch to the current trunk? Maybe i should roll this dice.
20:32:21 <Alberth> the biggest worries are about what the patch itself is aiming to do
20:32:24 <frosch123> when talking to __ln__ you can use the same number range, but you need to roll with a D6
20:34:37 <Hadrien> you're claiming the patch isn't very well thought? I'd like to know if it's worth trying to update it?
20:36:52 <Alberth> there are a number of such patches floating around, and they all fail to work properly in some way
20:37:59 <Alberth> so the question popping up is perhaps whether it is the right approach for the problem
20:38:02 <andythenorth> I swear we could solve it with tech levels :P
20:38:07 <andythenorth> but that has died a death :P
20:40:03 <Wolf01> I *could* have a working patch, but it's really far to be complete, the nice thing is that it doesn't touch the economy as all the others do
20:40:11 <Eddi|zuHause> <__ln__> that's one easy way to spot even those frenchmen that speak pretty fluent english otherwise. <-- and here i was thinking it was the .fr domain that gave it away :p
20:40:36 <andythenorth> what is the goal for daylength?
20:40:45 <Hadrien> and what happened to infrastructure sharing? Did it died in philosophic questions about "what to do about trains which are on a died company railroad network"? or was it too big?
20:41:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Hadrien: i'm pretty sure there are more modern daylength patches that already use the .ini method instead of settings.h
20:41:54 <Wolf01> the main goal is to play an era for a longer time, but you can achieve the same result by changing the grfs introduction dates, if you don't mind the date printed on the bottom of the screen
20:42:13 <Hadrien> the goal of daylenght is to add a factor on a day lenght. The day could, for ex., last 4x longer, so you can enjoy the era for a longer time
20:42:58 <andythenorth> and other than the date shown, what would need to change?
20:43:26 <Hadrien> thanks eddi, i'll try to find one, but this give me some pratice to programmation!
20:43:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Hadrien: which starts the actual questions: how should industry production be altered, how should vehicle payment be altered, how should ... be altered
20:43:46 <Wolf01> it should change nothing, that's why other patches failed
20:44:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: you can't change "nothing"
20:44:11 <andythenorth> so why is it so hard?
20:44:15 <andythenorth> just lie about the date
20:44:24 <Alberth> andythenorth: a chance in the head of the user to get rid of the idea that the number is in any way related to real world years?
20:44:25 <andythenorth> date = date * multiplier
20:44:29 <Hadrien> This is kind of easy to change nothing. Just do nothing!
20:44:42 <Wolf01> in fact, mine works just by faking the date
20:44:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Hadrien: yes, but that means you're not changing daylength either :p
20:44:49 <andythenorth> do all the patches dick around trying to change ticks or something?
20:45:02 <Wolf01> but I need to do the part which tells the grfs to use the faked date
20:45:22 <andythenorth> the lie has to be comprehensive :)
20:45:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: yes, so you change vehicle introduction dates and stuff. that's not "nothing"
20:46:42 <Wolf01> but all the patches try to modify the tick length or something very related to it
20:46:46 <Hadrien> but, obviously, this isn't just a date question! The daylenght has to change the day of the lenght by a factor, but the pace of the game should be the same. Basically, you should multiply all others factors by your daylenght
20:46:49 <Wolf01> and that's not the right way
20:47:16 <Eddi|zuHause> basically, there is no "right" way
20:47:24 <Hadrien> if daylenght is just about make the game last longer, it will be boring!
20:47:38 <Eddi|zuHause> there have been half a dozen approaches, and each one had their own kind of drawback
20:48:24 <Wolf01> the problem Hadrien, is that you could slow down the entire game, also the speed of the trains to keep the balance with the economy, or you'll end up making ridicously ammounts of cash
20:49:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i've been thinking it should be broader than just "daylength", i.e. introduce "scale factors" for many different game concepts: speed, acceleration, production, development, ...
20:49:10 <Hadrien> so you need to slow down revenues by the same factor?
20:49:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i've also thought about the money problem:
20:50:11 <Hadrien> yeah. the final idea is to keep the pace of the game! The gamestart is already slow sometime so it shouldn't last 4x longer!
20:50:11 <Eddi|zuHause> - if you earn the same in the same real-time, the game-time cost must be scaled to match
20:50:19 <Wolf01> but then you need to play for 4x time longer the game to be able do get enough income to do the same stuff
20:50:27 <Eddi|zuHause> - you can't scale down the income because of rounding
20:50:51 <Eddi|zuHause> - so you scale up the (monthly, etc.) costs, and introduce a new currency factor that scales it back for display
20:50:55 <Rubidium> you only need to scale up the monthly/yearly costs, right?
20:51:06 <andythenorth> faking the year would keep the same pace....
20:51:19 <Rubidium> well, and daily costs
20:51:24 <andythenorth> I never understand why this is so hard tbh
20:51:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: because a) everyone wants to change the pace in a different way, and b) lots of internals make assumptions that you destroy
20:52:00 <Hadrien> actually, reducing the revenues isn't needed. You'll get a greater income, but that's just because the day last 4 times longer ! The pace of the game will be the same !
20:52:33 <Hadrien> (sorry for the space, that was emotion!)
20:52:44 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: but a) is false. Everyone is not right
20:53:26 <Wolf01> my latest approach was to keep all unchanged, just the grfs introduction dates and the date printed on the bottom, the economy is not scaled at all, if a train make $1.000.000 in one year at 1x, it makes 4.000.000 in one year at 4x, it's just changes the time on which the end of the year happen
20:53:26 <Rubidium> andythenorth: conceptually it's not hard; just make the day last longer. Once you dive into the details it gets complex. Just like nuclear fission/fusion; conceptually it's easy, just get a bit of A, hit it with B and get E
20:53:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: even if a) is "false", it still prevents you from arguing your patch past the powers that be, and nobody wants to do "work" :p
20:53:49 <andythenorth> well in that case, it's not hard :)
20:53:59 <andythenorth> it's just not happening
20:54:18 <andythenorth> I can action 6 or something for intro dates
20:54:26 <andythenorth> shall I just fix it in newgrf? o_O
20:54:41 <Rubidium> you still have inflation
20:55:06 <andythenorth> inflation is firmly 'off' in my world
20:55:16 <Hadrien> oh boy. i always desactivate it.
20:56:54 <andythenorth> really, we think it's not an interesting problem to solve no?
20:57:19 <Hadrien> Would'nt it be possible to just scale daylenght and cargo generation by this factor and let the others unchanged ?
20:57:24 <andythenorth> i.e non-significant
20:58:09 <Wolf01> Hadrien, you'll slow down the economy doing so
20:58:09 <andythenorth> Hadrien: there is a crapload of newgrf stuff that uses ticks directly iirc
20:59:51 <Eddi|zuHause> ECS had big problems with some versions of daylength because of that
21:00:17 <andythenorth> iirc, there are also animation counters...motion counters, dunno what else
21:00:36 <andythenorth> the correct solution is to sovle it in newgrf :P
21:01:08 <andythenorth> maybe we could make a utility that decodes a grf, finds all the date props, multiplies them, and re-encodes
21:01:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Hadrien: conclusion, the whole thing is a mess, and probably a bad idea to "just dive into" with no experience
21:01:14 <Hadrien> ok. wordreference tell me the translation of the expression i want to tell you is: "i smell a rat" :D
21:01:33 <andythenorth> what is the original? o_O
21:01:42 <Hadrien> "Il y a anguille sous roche"
21:02:12 <Hadrien> ok Eddi. Thanks for the advice.
21:02:45 <Wolf01> now you sould understand why I'm really frustrated about this :)
21:02:47 <Hadrien> So i guess the "town generation factor" is in the same boat ?
21:03:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Hadrien: not really, because it affects way fewer things.
21:03:30 <Alberth> that's much more clearly newgrf solvable
21:03:41 <Hadrien> thanks to give me your frustration :)
21:04:00 <andythenorth> maybe I could add a compile time parameter to grfs: base year, multiplier
21:04:12 <andythenorth> sometimes I think we should ditch real dates, and just have 'years since epoch'
21:04:28 <Alberth> like rct: year 0, year 1, ... :)
21:04:48 <andythenorth> I think other sim games take that approach?
21:04:51 <Hadrien> I've updated the "town generation cargo factor" and made a thread on the dev forum.
21:04:52 <Eddi|zuHause> and count "progress" to advance epochs?
21:04:56 <andythenorth> it would piss of the foamers
21:05:18 <Wolf01> oh, and one thing to keep in mind: do not let to change the multiplier once the game is started, just as happen with newgrfs
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21:06:31 <andythenorth> epoch, tech levels triggered by GS goals
21:06:40 <andythenorth> whole new game :P
21:06:41 <Hadrien> the foamers ? what does that mean ?
21:06:51 <andythenorth> the subset of players who don't play
21:07:08 <andythenorth> but are instead building model railroads without the real-world space constraints ;)
21:07:09 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean everyone here :p
21:07:42 <andythenorth> the ones who will report bugs if you have the wrong llivery on a locomotive
21:07:48 <andythenorth> or the wrong intro date...
21:07:51 <frosch123> well, if you do not have tanks in 1300 in civ, you probably lose
21:08:04 * andythenorth never played civ, maybe I should
21:08:14 * andythenorth mostly plays dice wars
21:08:21 <Eddi|zuHause> well we've had bug reports about the wrong conversion factor from kW to hp :p
21:08:29 <Eddi|zuHause> or from mph to km/h
21:08:43 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I have reports about wrong units in FIRS :(
21:09:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: didn't frosch123 commit this unit stuff?
21:09:12 <andythenorth> yeah, but give me a minute to catch up :)
21:09:24 <andythenorth> I somehow pissed off every FIRS contributor, and now have to do it on my own :
21:09:26 <Eddi|zuHause> NO! IT MUST BE DONE INSTANTLY!
21:09:47 <andythenorth> foobar is gone, yexo is gone, pm is busy, terkhen is (mostly) gone :)
21:10:01 <Hadrien> :D i think i understood the concept now.
21:10:16 <Terkhen> nah, I'm around, just not involved
21:10:59 <andythenorth> my favourite foamer report is the one about the scale being off
21:11:09 <andythenorth> specifically that tiles are wrong size
21:11:58 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. rail wagons are too short!
21:12:05 <Hadrien> nice one! He ask you to make all the models again?
21:12:20 <Hadrien> I think you should get to work NOW!
21:16:17 <Hadrien> Back on the cargo generation factor, don't you think this is really hard to satisfy all theses passengers with default vehicles and cargodist ? That's why i think this patch is essential
21:18:13 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: no! houses are too big! I have calculated the size of a tile from the speed of a train
21:18:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Hadrien: i very much agree
21:19:00 <andythenorth> Hadrien: I think adding patches with problems on top of features with wrinkles is undesirable
21:19:15 <andythenorth> I would say turn off cargodist
21:20:42 <Hadrien> cargodist is a top feature! Try to use TTRS and the problem will be by far more important.
21:21:31 <andythenorth> sounds like the lady who swallowed a fly :)
21:21:40 <andythenorth> now she's eating spider to catch the fly
21:22:13 <andythenorth> now she needs a bird to catch spider...
21:22:53 <andythenorth> what will daylength do to GS?
21:24:04 <frosch123> maybe you can also fix the pax amount by reducing the station catchment radiius and max station spread :)
21:24:05 <Hadrien> is that a traditionnal song ?
21:24:11 <frosch123> forces to add more local targets
21:24:52 <frosch123> andythenorth: let the gs decide themself? :)
21:25:08 <Hadrien> frosch123: it just workaround the problem because a 5000 town could generate 10000 if badly handled
21:25:36 <andythenorth> I would look for the root cause of the problem with cargo generation
21:25:50 <andythenorth> what causes too much cargo to be generated?
21:26:06 <frosch123> well, the issue that cdist "generates" more pax is due to pax staying longer on the train to reach certain destinations
21:26:22 <frosch123> so, maybe they should just go elsewhere
21:26:37 <andythenorth> so actually there isn't more generation?
21:26:50 <andythenorth> but throughput is reduced?
21:26:53 <frosch123> no, its'just that trains do not unload everything at next hop
21:27:06 <frosch123> so, your train capacity is lower, since it can only load a few percent
21:27:19 <andythenorth> so use bigger trains? o_O
21:27:36 <andythenorth> but that's not root cause
21:27:55 <andythenorth> pax get off the train at next stop?
21:27:57 <frosch123> or make pax travel in town only, except that the capacity of most rv is even lower :p
21:28:10 <andythenorth> don't stay on the train, throughput problem is solved
21:28:22 <andythenorth> we already have an option for that
21:28:37 <andythenorth> why is TTRS a factor?
21:29:00 <frosch123> because ttrs has 99% skyscrapers
21:29:06 <andythenorth> ok, so don't use TTRS
21:29:12 <frosch123> so town size is something like 10 times bigger and denser
21:29:25 <andythenorth> we have an option for "don't use TTRS" I believe?
21:29:28 <andythenorth> it's not compulsory?
21:29:58 <frosch123> andythenorth: maybe rename the "pax reduce" setting to "ttrs fix"
21:30:29 <frosch123> maybe you can also adjust the blitter zoom scaling so it makes the houses smaller
21:31:11 <andythenorth> I could do a compile time patch with PIL :P
21:31:51 <andythenorth> see, no need for daylength, all problems solved easily :)
21:31:56 <andythenorth> no patches required at all
21:32:18 <frosch123> planetmaker: finished watching total recall (1990) ?
21:32:54 <andythenorth> what was his other awesome film?
21:33:08 <planetmaker> it is a film I used to like a lot
21:33:22 <planetmaker> I'm not 100% positive anymore that it's actually a good film :P
21:33:23 <andythenorth> robocop - of course :)
21:33:28 <andythenorth> planetmaker: it's an awesome film
21:34:18 <andythenorth> he's from dutch land
21:56:52 <Hadrien> (sorry i'm back) so andythenorth you've fixed the generation problem by demonstrating there is no problem? :D Nice!
21:57:05 <andythenorth> Hadrien: it's always a nice solution ;)
21:57:49 <frosch123> andy is the best one when it comes to closing bugs as won't fix
21:58:16 <Hadrien> (i was answering the previous statement)
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22:18:45 <Hadrien> good night ! thanks for the tips
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