IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2014-01-04
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00:04:17 <Eddi|zuHause> George: triggers in callbacks are always ignored, only triggers in the graphics chain are processed
00:04:42 <Eddi|zuHause> when you specify the trigger callback, only the trigger callback is processed and the graphics callback is ignored as well
00:10:20 <George> needs clarification... if I have graphics in CC and the randomisation is done in colour_mapping, and a triger is service, it would never happen?
00:12:24 <NGC3982> I want to create a server game where time stands still
00:12:29 <NGC3982> It's always 1899 or something.
00:12:35 <NGC3982> I guess that is not possible.
00:17:54 <Eddi|zuHause> George: correct, the trigger in colour_mapping never happens, you need to add another random action in the graphics chain which only does the trigger
00:31:27 <NGC3982> I note Eddi's addition to the thread.
00:31:39 <NGC3982> I guess i can forget stopping time in a multiplayer game as it is.
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10:02:06 <George> I can't understand what am I doing wrong, but I can't make parts of ARV to operate correctly with visual_effect_and_powered
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10:38:34 <FrenkyPohodar> I wish you a nice day. I have a problem I do not know how to dispose of the company (dedikate server) One player that annoyed me. I outsourced the Rcon 1234 reset_company but how do I find the client_id (Company 5) thanks very much for your advice.
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11:00:26 <FrenkyPohodar> So I found it much thanks. Field is rcon 1234 "reset_company 5" wanted to quote.
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11:39:52 * NGC3982 still wants to stop time and is stubborn as a moo-moo.
11:43:16 <FLHerne> NGC3982: You could stop the server, cheat back, and reload every year :P
11:43:25 <FLHerne> That might be kinda ugly
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11:57:18 <Alberth> play the year 4999999 ?
12:10:33 <NGC3982> That defeats the purpose a bit. It would be preferable if i could simply play forever on <year>
12:10:38 <NGC3982> In multiplayer, that is
12:10:46 <NGC3982> Although, i know it's not possible with the current platform
12:10:59 <NGC3982> And frankly too much work to be cranky about. (-;
12:12:09 <Alberth> but it does, the year gets reset back to 4999999
12:12:36 <Alberth> although maybe you need to play in 5000000 instead, not sure when exactly the year wrap is done
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12:28:34 <gaghiel> version: 1.3.3 with FIRS here.
12:29:13 <gaghiel> question: same station services a coal mine and iron ore mine. both accepts eng. supplies. I bring eng. supplies. which industry picks it up first ?
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12:29:56 <Alberth> the other industry will not get any
12:30:05 <planetmaker> the industry closest to the station sign
12:31:16 <planetmaker> transfer supplies and transport with vehicles to road stations adjacent to the industries
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12:48:15 <George> planetmaker: could you help me with FS#5848
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13:26:34 <Aristide> Since Subway Extension, go to KFC is faster _o/
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14:17:34 <Flygon> Aristide: They extend the metro line to my area. Then they shut it down for HST works. Yay! :D
14:21:26 <Flygon> They're seperating the Diesel HST's from the Metro EMU's in inner Melbourne, and this requires railway line shutdowns to do so
14:21:38 <Flygon> But the thing is... this was done concurrently with the Sunbury electrification.
14:22:01 <Flygon> So the electrification was completed while the inner urban area's getting random line shutdowns
14:22:13 <Flygon> Oh. Also, for more awkwardness with this.
14:22:32 <Flygon> The Sunbury line's only seperating HST's from Southern Cross (Melbourne) to around Albion...
14:22:54 <Flygon> So there's still going to be the VLocity DMU's catching up to Comengs on the HST section between Sunbury and Watergardens
14:23:04 <Flygon> Simply because the Comeng/Siemens EMUs aren't allowed to go over 115m/h
14:23:25 <Flygon> The work's being done at both day and night
14:23:51 <Flygon> The issue is that they're having to rebuild entire train stations, and build new bridges and... it's a complex mess
14:24:00 <Flygon> But basically. Bus replacements are necessary.
14:24:53 <Flygon> Just a shame the Comengs aren't being allowed to 130km/h (not that they have a very nice time reaching 115km/h going up the steep grades). And the Siemens were designed for 140-150km/h operation (line speed is officially 160km/h between Watergardens and Sunbury)
14:25:12 <Flygon> But neither'll likely be allowed over 115 due to strict crash standards.
14:25:32 <Flygon> In Europe, the Siemens would probably be allowed to do 200km/h with a different gear ratio >_>
14:26:37 <Flygon> Is part of the reason the VLocity HSTs are having congestion issues in non-HST areas (under the Metro area), is.... because they're out-accelerating the EMU's
14:26:54 <Flygon> Only in Australia could Diesels accelerate faster than Electrics
14:27:16 <Aristide> Subway reaching 80 km/h here
14:27:56 <Flygon> (basically, the drivers push the DMUs to accelerate as fast as possible in urban areas to not lose train paths, or else Metro'll screw them over. But the Metro drivers don't have such requirements... note that a lot of lines lack byass tracks in stations)
14:28:23 <Flygon> I was actually surprised to learn that a lot of the world's Metropolitean trains don't break 80km/h
14:28:58 <Flygon> But, then again, your station spacing is much closer than Melbourne's, and you probably have a lower gear ratio for that acceleratory kick
14:29:20 <Flygon> Then again, our Trams practically fill the role of an inner urban subway anyway...
14:30:31 <Flygon> ...then again. They've also been driven to 110km/h in testing, so *waves his arms around like he's just given up understanding everything*
14:30:55 <Aristide> Flygon: Do you have a photo (or video) of your subway ?
14:32:41 <Flygon> Well... sort of subway
14:32:50 <Flygon> Except for the city loop, it's largely overground
14:33:55 <Aristide> (All subway are underground here)
14:34:09 <Xaroth|Work> isn't that the entire idea of 'sub' way ?
14:34:39 <Flygon> I'm not sure how many other cities have had EMUs running underground with openable windows
14:36:16 <Aristide> Subways has not windows here
14:37:06 <Flygon> It's hard to imagine a train without windows
14:38:15 <Aristide> Trolleybus are good solution too
14:39:27 <Flygon> Trolleybuses don't exist here
14:41:37 <Flygon> Diagnostic mode? Or just no input?
14:42:03 <Aristide> But a « point » walking on screen xD
14:42:26 <Aristide> Its maybe a lost of internet connection in bus
14:42:51 <Flygon> Your buses need internet connection?
14:42:56 <Flygon> Such a thing would be impossible here
14:43:16 <Aristide> Flygon: I think, Information was sended in every bus if a problem is detected on NEtwork
14:43:26 <Aristide> INFO TCL appear and information displayed
14:43:40 <Flygon> Everything is manually set by the driver here
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14:44:47 <Aristide> If bus is rerouted, its write on panel (INFO TCL : Line rerouted after <bus stop>)
14:45:08 <Aristide> And after this <bus stop>, INFO TCL : Deviation being
14:45:24 <Flygon> Here, it'd be CB radio+intercom
14:45:30 <Flygon> Except the intercom's usually broken
14:45:41 <Flygon> The route only changes at terminuses
14:46:33 <Aristide> Ahaha on Tram T1 and T4 : « Security problem on « Collège Belcombe » xD
14:47:07 <Flygon> A security problem here is usually just a drunk guy on a train
14:47:13 <Flygon> Then the entire line gets shut down for 3 hours
14:47:29 <Flygon> V/Line and Yarra Trams handle this better
14:51:32 <Flygon> Aristide: How fast do your Trams normally go, anyway?
14:51:58 <Flygon> We have a few French Trams running about Melbourne, but they're restricted to specific routes because we have very tight curve radiuses >_<
14:52:51 <Flygon> Alright, that'd explain a fair bit then
14:53:15 <Flygon> Because we still run a crapload of Z/B-classes on lines with 80-100km/h sections
14:54:39 <Flygon> Interesting to see a map including bus routes
14:54:57 <Flygon> Buses aren't really included on Melbourne's transport maps because nobody rides them
14:55:08 <Aristide> Yes but this map is not up to date
14:55:26 <Flygon> Regardless, you have a nice network
14:55:34 <Aristide> Subway has already extended to Oullins Gare, and Tramway T1 to IUT Feyssine
14:55:51 <Aristide> But extend T1 to Debourg is in test phase
14:56:33 <Flygon> It's not exactly to scale though
14:56:58 <Flygon> There's enough distance between Deer Park and Melton, for example, to allow the VLocity DMUs to hit 200km/h (in testing. 160km/h in reality)
14:57:06 <Aristide> Southern Cross station :')
14:57:35 <Flygon> Flinders Street Station's more well known here... but, really
14:57:40 <Flygon> The two are like Brother and Sister
14:59:44 <Flygon> Aristide: The thing with Melbourne is, is due to how sprawling that map is
14:59:57 <Flygon> Is that the map I showed doesn't actually show the whole commuter belt
15:00:35 <Aristide> How many do you have subway in melbourne ?
15:00:58 <Flygon> I'm not sure I understand how many of what
15:01:33 <Flygon> There's one subway/metro operator, Metro. One Tramway operator, Yarra Trams. V/Line runs the HST and long distance Diesel services (bar Stony Point line)
15:02:05 <Aristide> How many subways line and / or tramways line for City transportation only
15:02:18 <Flygon> City Transportation only?
15:02:25 <Flygon> Do you mean the area that'd be considered Inner Melbourne?
15:02:53 <Flygon> That is a really really hard question to answer, hahaha
15:02:59 <Flygon> Because, the CBD itself is a grid
15:03:37 <Flygon> And there's like... a crapload of track pairs criss-crossing it for the Tramways (that go out to the rest of the inner suburbs... and there's a LOT of independant routes. It's basically like a bus @_@)
15:03:57 <Flygon> The subway section, explicitly underground, goes in a 3/4 circle around the CBD
15:04:31 <Flygon> The section between Southern Cross and Flinders Street is an overhead railway. Inherited from the fact that it was built before electric trains even existed.
15:04:39 <Flygon> The city loop subway was only built in the late 1970s
15:05:36 <Flygon> Outside of the CBD, the rest of the electric heavy rail network is overground, with a few lines having a LOT of grade seperations. The older ones are seperated by becoming overhead railways (or: VR got a lot of dirt, and piles it high, then place railway tracks on it)
15:05:49 <Flygon> This all makes sense when you realize most of the suburban network was built before 1890
15:06:06 <Flygon> And having smoke in tunnels from heavy locomotives going 80-100km/h isn't very nice, hahaha
15:07:11 <Flygon> Anyway, I can't give you a number of how many Tram routes there are, because there is too many, and the number fluctuates every year
15:07:47 <Flygon> There's currently 12 subway/metro heavy rail routes in inner Melbourne
15:08:00 <Flygon> And I say heavy rail exclusively to discount the two that're run by articulated Trams
15:08:34 <Flygon> Pre-1960s, there was a lot more confusion in how many lines there are in Melbourne due to the Inner and Outer city circles
15:09:12 <Aristide> But listen « Two operators » in one city, its strange for me
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15:10:12 <Flygon> Metro and Yarra Trams have 100% seperate networks
15:10:35 <Flygon> V/Line and Metro used to be part of Victorian Railways before 1980
15:10:50 <Flygon> Giving someone emotional support
15:12:04 <Flygon> Yarra Tram's ancestor is the MMTB
15:12:20 <Flygon> Melbourne and Metropolitean Tramways Board
15:12:52 <Flygon> When VR was split into V/Line and the MTA/MTC/The Met (it's had a lot of names for the exact same company)
15:13:02 <Flygon> The MMTB was assimilated into the MTA/MTC/The Met
15:13:19 <Flygon> And a majority of buses were assimilated into the The Met livery
15:13:51 <Flygon> If you've ever been to Helsinki, you'll recognize the vehicle livery used across Trains, Trams, and Buses as a near copy of the one as the ones from the Helsinki Trams (the Green and Yellow one)
15:14:00 <Flygon> This livery was actually inherited from the MMTB's W-class Trams
15:14:51 <Flygon> V/Line operated 100% independantly as a Freight and Passenger operator for regional Victoria
15:15:14 <Flygon> Let's skip ahead a bit
15:16:20 <Flygon> (which looks far nicer)
15:16:26 <Flygon> And the The Met kept everything the same
15:16:54 <Flygon> In the mid-late 90s, the Liberal Government elected (the Liberals here are the Conservatives. Try not to get confused :P) privatized the public transport services
15:18:23 <Flygon> The Geelong/Warnambool line for V/Line was sold off to West Coast Railways. Known for operating a Steam hauled service from 1997ish to 2005 that was faster than their Diesel services (SERIOUSLY. The R-classes are a real determinator). The Seymour line was sold to some coach company that hired stuff from V/Line. V/Line itself was sold to National Express.
15:18:43 <Flygon> Any Brits here just shuddered upon the mention of those two words.
15:19:25 <Flygon> The V/Line Freight division was sold off to various freight companies (National Express, Australia National, uuuuh... QUBE, Pacific National, El Zorro)
15:20:22 <Flygon> West Coast Railways is, by railfans, practically reserecting regional Diesel thanks to offering actual customer service. Despite being forced to use 1950s Diesels and carriages (the R-class are also a 1950s design, and were designed to go over 110km/h for long distances, explaining their out-dieseling)
15:20:38 <Flygon> The coach company did a very "So Okay, It's Average" job (Flygon goes on TVTopes too much)
15:20:47 <Flygon> And National Express ran the rest of the system into the ground :|
15:20:58 <Flygon> Now, to get to the real meat of this
15:21:12 <Flygon> The Met was split into a lot of things
15:21:28 <Flygon> The bus companies got to use whatever liveries they wanted (they were always independant)
15:21:42 <Flygon> The Tramways was split into M>Tram and Yarra Trams
15:22:02 <Flygon> And the railways was split into Hillside Trains and Bayside Trains (iirc for the latter)
15:22:18 <Flygon> Hillside was quickly renamed M>Train, and Bayside was quickly renamed Connex
15:22:46 <Flygon> The M> franchise quickly exhausted all it's money and sold off everything into the respective operators
15:23:05 <Aristide> I know a operator of bus named « Connex » owned by this fucking veolia
15:23:08 <Flygon> The M> company itself was actually really nice (nobody outright hated it, anyway), so it was sad to see it go
15:23:17 <Flygon> Connex and Veolia are the same company
15:23:26 <Aristide> Ok I don't like this company :x
15:23:29 <Flygon> Yarra Trams is generally regarded as a good operator
15:23:40 <Flygon> Connex is regarded as having been idiots.
15:24:13 <Flygon> They would cancel Comengs due to faulty aircons, and scrapped a lot of Hitachi (which outright lacked aircons, and were approaching 40 years old)
15:24:19 <Flygon> This upset a LOT of people
15:24:33 <Flygon> Oh! Just a bit of a side-story with rollingstock aquisition
15:24:58 <Aristide> [04@16:23] <Flygon> Connex is regarded as having been idiots. → +100000
15:25:02 <Flygon> M>Tram and Yarra Trams aquired the C and D-class Trams. Citidas and... Flexity? I forgot about the latter.
15:25:12 <Flygon> But one was French, the other Italian
15:25:44 <Flygon> I mean no offense, but the Italian ones are regarded as having performed better (especially with air conditioning). Both types had issues with our sharp curves, though
15:26:24 <Flygon> M>Train aquired the X'trapolis trains that got manufactured here and Italy. The X'traps are regarded as terrible. I could rant all day, so let's halt that one here.
15:27:05 <Flygon> Connex aquired the Siemens (Nexas model). Which actually had a worse reputation than the X'traps initially, due to braking problems (especially with platform overshoots), and other minor issues
15:27:10 <Aristide> I don't like Connex. This company managed an old bus line 101 in Public/Private partnership with Department (Rhône) ... And this busline take one breakdrone per week
15:28:10 <Flygon> And Siemens were refusing to fix stuff up, despite our (rather reasonable) reason that they gave us a faulty product
15:28:34 <Flygon> They're never going to get contracted out to give us anything rail related in Victoria for at least another 25 years. The fiasco was that bad.
15:29:02 <Flygon> The Siemens got fixed up by the local crew (out of Connexes and the Victorian Government's pockets), and are now considered to be the best EMU fleet Victoria has
15:29:08 <Flygon> Now, back to National Express
15:29:25 <Flygon> The Nat Express thing was SO bad, that they basically weren't allowed to renew their contract for V/Line
15:30:52 <Flygon> Everything defaulted back to the Government, who sold off the rest of the freight division (they were only interested in passenger), and ran the passenger service as an interum for the planned "Regional Fast Rail". See, they were in talks with NatExpress, West Coast Railways, and that coach provider (gotta love how Okay and Average they were!) about getting the lines upgraded for, at the time, 145km/h DMUs that could couple with the S
15:31:31 <Flygon> Scope creep ended up with the plan going so long, that West Coast Railways went bankrupt, and the coach provider just shurgged, decided they just wanted to run buses, and gave the license back to the Government
15:32:13 <Flygon> Thus explaining how V/Line became Government owned once more (half the reason WCR went bankrupt is because of the Geelong line being shut down for RFR/'HST' upgrades. Which removed their main source of income)
15:33:35 <Flygon> By 2005-2006, we're running the VLocity at 160km/h (after testing it at speeds from 180km/h to 220-230km/h for... well, the hell of it. The 220km/h tests had vibrations so bad from the Diesel engines that parts of the vehicle fell off. Just asthetic attachements for prettiness sakes, but... wow. The hydralic transmission is rated for only 200km/h)
15:33:51 <Flygon> Now. Connex... Connex, Connex, Connex.
15:34:14 <Flygon> Wait? I'm allowed to say fuck?
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15:34:36 <Aristide> You can catch viruses :3
15:35:20 <Flygon> The Connex fiasco was so bad here, that when their contract lapsed, and the Government put out tender for a new operator (typically the old operator picks up the reigns), Connex were practically blocked from getting it
15:36:13 <Flygon> The resulting consortium was a combination of the Victorian Government, a Hong Kong railway operator (which managed to upset the drivers unions over a few things... Aussies do not work well under Asian style management), and... someone else
15:36:43 <Flygon> "John Holland Group (20%) and UGL Rail (20%).", sourcing Wikipedia
15:37:00 <Flygon> The Hong Kong MTR Consortium has 60% stake, the Vic Govt has the rest
15:37:10 <Flygon> Dunno what John Holland Group even ARE
15:37:33 <Flygon> Anyway, does that explain why Melbourne has a confusing set of operators?
15:38:25 <Flygon> (just a note, Metro're beginning to have a reputation as bad as Connex here, due to shenanigans. Their grace period has worn off)
15:39:19 <Flygon> (V/Line's well loved. But commuters are frustrated by capacity constraints on the Ballarat/Bacchus Marsh/Melton line due to it needing to use crossing loops. Yes, we have a largely single track HST line. Don't expect the TGV here! Hahaha! :D)
15:39:40 <Flygon> (And Yarra Trams is... just sort of there. Not being terrible)
15:41:54 <Flygon> For the pre-1980s history. Basically. Victorian Railways was formed in 1859ish by the (at the time, sort-of national Government. We were a colony) Government to assimilate a railway company building what was considered a vital line, to just finish the damned thing. The resulting company, Victorian Railways, was essentially run as a private company from 1860 to 1970ish (self-sustaining). It assimilated multiple railway companies betwee
15:41:54 <Flygon> n 1860 to 1890 due to them all going bankrupt and having useful lines/assets
15:42:32 <Flygon> The Tramways used to be a lot of seperated Tramway and Cable Car companies, which were all assimilated by the MMTB for the exact same reasons as VR
15:47:14 <Aristide> Here, TCL Network is owned by SYTRAL, and the operator is Keolis Lyon (for 5 or 7 years I don't remember)
15:47:35 <Flygon> VR basically couldn't churn a profit between 1970-1980 due to a combo of car use, and management that lacked the guts to cut stations from routes for timetable reasons
15:47:43 <Aristide> Public/Private partnership
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15:48:41 <Flygon> Yeah, Private/Public is huge here
15:49:03 <Flygon> Even V/Line is technically Private/Public. In that the Government is a 100% shareholder, but lets management do whatever.
15:49:11 <Aristide> But Sytral is again owner of this network
15:49:25 <Flygon> Oh, owning the rail network.... oh my god
15:49:38 <Flygon> Do not get me into explaining what a s***storm that is in Victoria xD
15:49:38 <Aristide> And Keolis Lyon must respect contract
15:49:43 <gaghiel> version 1.3.3 with FIRS: suddenly a transfer station in the middle of nowhere starts accepting food/goods/petrol. it just transfers grain from a feeder system.
15:50:25 <gaghiel> anyidea how to check this ?
15:50:59 <Flygon> The MMTB had the same issue as VR. They had issues churning a profit, and couldn't actually raise fares (100% Government owned, like current V/Line). Raising fares was one of the few things management couldn't do. But they lacked any other real way to raise profits. The Trams were already decked out with adverts.
15:51:30 <Flygon> The only real positive thing about 1970s Melbourne was that everyone loved Astro Boy
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15:52:49 <Flygon> Then he became even more popular in the 80s thanks to the 80s series :P
15:55:07 <Flygon> How popular is Astro Boy in France?
15:55:47 <Flygon> x3 France is really weird to me, I must admit
15:55:51 <Flygon> Completely different world
15:56:08 <Flygon> You guys? You see a country with Kangaroo and go "OhmygodKANGAROOOOO"
15:56:24 <Flygon> And think "OhmygodIWONTHITAKANGAROOWHENDRIVING"
15:57:41 <Flygon> I got the 1980s Astro Boy theme stuck in my head now
15:57:50 <Aristide> Ok Free mobile has only 700 4G antennas ><
15:57:55 <Flygon> "Da-da dah da duh-daaah"
15:58:17 <Flygon> Sounds better than Optus :P
15:58:26 <Aristide> Flygon: Yes but operator deply 4G network
15:58:32 <Aristide> Since End of December
15:58:43 <Flygon> 700 antanna since December? O_o
15:59:05 <Aristide> Yes 3G antennas already installed has already 4G Ready \o/
15:59:15 <Flygon> Here, there's issues with... hard to explain
15:59:22 <Flygon> Basically, Telstra has a gigantic 4G network
15:59:25 <Aristide> « qui a la meilleure 4G » is outdated
15:59:30 <Flygon> Then there's Optus, where it's patchy between 3/4G
15:59:37 <Flygon> And Vodaphone. Vodaphone are like Connex
15:59:39 <Aristide> A other website (independant) say 1445
16:00:09 <Flygon> Even if I had 4G, it'd be useless for me
16:00:16 <Flygon> Best plan I'd be able to get is 25GB/mo
16:00:22 <Aristide> Flygon: Me too, but 20GB of data per month is cool
16:00:25 <Flygon> Screw 150/150mbits internet if I can only get 25GB/mo
16:00:38 <Flygon> I'd rather just get ADSL2+ in my house
16:00:52 <Flygon> I'm lucky to get 19/1mbits. Most ADSL houses here get just 1.5-9mbits :(
16:01:14 <Flygon> Cable is rare, and Fibre is... ... hard to explain. I won't bother explaining Fibre.
16:01:42 <Aristide> Ok in November, 168 Antennas has installed by Free Mobile :(
16:01:54 <Aristide> BUt I don't know if its 3 or 4G LTE
16:04:35 <Flygon> Rolling out 3G by now would be dumb
16:05:02 <Aristide> Yes, but I thinks, Antenna installed can emmit in many frequencys (Both 3G and 4G)
16:05:44 <gaghiel> guys, when the the "auto-refit" button in the train orders is enabled?
16:07:07 <gaghiel> cant seem to find anything in the wiki ?
16:07:34 <juzza1> the vehicle/wagon must allow it
16:08:26 <gaghiel> so it's just an API thing?
16:09:31 <gaghiel> let me rephrase that, so the train grf must support it explicitly
16:14:20 <frosch> there are only like 2 sets, which support it
16:14:45 <frosch> some version of ogfx+trains (though no idea which), and maybe heqs and fish
16:15:20 <frosch> though i do no consider it useful for rv and ships, which leave some version of ogfx+trains :p
16:16:24 <Flygon> The UKRS (or a version of it) supports it
16:16:41 <Flygon> It's been over a year since I did a UKRS related game
16:16:58 <frosch> has there been a version of ukrs in 2012 or 2013?
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16:18:47 <gaghiel> thanks! ogfx+trains indeed support it. 2cc does not
16:19:02 <gaghiel> however i'm taking a peek at the repo
16:19:19 <frosch> ogfx+trains repo is very different from 0.3.0
16:20:24 <frosch> it tried to head towards 32bpp graphics, which look very different to the previous 8bpp ones, which more or less resulted in derailing the whole set due to disagreement
16:21:03 <Flygon> I'm guessing the El Paso solution didn't come along?
16:21:26 <frosch> basically you can consider ogfx+train 0.3.0 and nightly separate train sets :)
16:24:52 <frosch> nah, i guess whoever picks it up, may branch it into two different projects
16:25:17 <frosch> both the 8bpp and 32bpp graphics are fine, but they do not fit under one "brand"
16:26:30 <Eddi|zuHause> so "opengfx+" and "z+"?
16:28:08 <frosch> i thought "z" stands for zephyris :p
16:29:18 <frosch> immediately or after a minute or so?
16:29:52 <Eddi|zuHause> how would i know...
16:30:15 <frosch> yeah, rhodecode crashed or so
16:34:01 <gaghiel> frosch: the actual tcpdump contains a 301 moved permanently response. hg reports is as 502 bad gw though
16:38:00 <andythenorth> so is the original terrain generator better than terragenesis?
16:38:32 <frosch> depends on the settings :p
16:38:44 <andythenorth> I used it by accident
16:38:52 <frosch> usually tgp is better, but you with the right/wrong settings it can be worse than original
16:38:59 <andythenorth> original seems to make better temperate and tropic terrain
16:39:07 <andythenorth> pretty shocking in arctic
16:39:12 <andythenorth> they're both shocking in arctic
16:40:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the original generator gets very repetitive
16:40:31 <frosch> the original generator also depends on the baseset
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17:01:03 <andythenorth> what does it depend on in baseset?
17:01:44 <frosch> the baseset contains small heightmaps as sprites, the original mapgen somehow composes them to a map
17:02:24 <frosch> so, most likely you get better results with the original baseset, since noone cared in ogfx age :)
17:15:35 <Flygon> Is it planning ahead too far if you're building Maglev lines for the 2CC set in 1985?
17:16:34 <Eddi|zuHause> early development versions of transrapid?
17:17:50 <Flygon> I'm using one of those sidings lines as a placeholder
17:18:05 <Flygon> So clearly the Transrapid prototypes ran on 35km/h iron rail track
17:18:25 <Flygon> I'm 20 years early... at least I get to reserve the corridore :p
17:18:40 <Flygon> Though, having the early Transrapids in 2CC would be neat
17:19:39 <Flygon> Is the point the speech or the Gimmick?
17:19:43 <Flygon> Because I can't speak German x3
17:19:59 <andythenorth> right, what can we fix?
17:20:07 <andythenorth> maybe I could learn how a patch queue works again :P
17:20:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the point is that the speech is famous for the speaker struggling a lot to find the words that he meant
17:20:41 <Eddi|zuHause> so that guy made a "drum solo" out of this
17:21:16 <Flygon> Nobody ever accused the Europeans of being sane :D
17:22:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the topic of the speech was a planned transrapid line from munich main station (city center) to munich airport (far outskirts)
17:22:25 <Eddi|zuHause> which would have a travel time of 10 minutes
17:22:25 <andythenorth> frosch: so how do I apply the newsmoke patches?
17:22:52 <Eddi|zuHause> the project came into scrutiny for being too expensive
17:23:08 <Eddi|zuHause> (it was later cancelled completely)
17:23:37 <Flygon> They lodged the same thing here
17:23:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the speech was supposed to point out all the advantages the line would have
17:23:44 <Flygon> A radial railway line around Port Phillip bay
17:24:35 <Flygon> From Geelong, to Tarniet, to Whydnam Vale, to Sunshine, to the Airport, to... Thomastown I think it was? And then basically follow the Ring Road Freeway Corridore to Frankston
17:24:57 <Flygon> A 500km/h Maglev circle around Melbourne basically. Costed at $5bil
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17:25:41 <Flygon> The idea was scrapped and the Regional Rail Link plan was implemented (same price) to desperate Diesel HST traffic from EMU Metro traffic, while also building a line for Tarniet and Vale
17:26:07 <Flygon> The only reason I can think that the Transrapid plan failed is because it didn't go through the CBD =/
17:26:16 <Flygon> Because we desperately need an airport link
17:26:27 <Flygon> And it'd have really helped connecting the Eastern suburbs to the airport
17:26:31 <Flygon> I hope Transrapid try again
17:26:38 <Flygon> When the Regional Rail Link is complete
17:26:44 <Flygon> The idea will actually work very very well
17:26:58 <frosch> andythenorth: curl first diff | patch -p 1
17:27:04 <frosch> andythenorth: curl second diff | patch -p 1
17:27:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i think transrapid is fairly dead by now
17:27:14 <Flygon> Because it'll be very easy to run a HST service to Sunshine express from Southern Cross, to connect with a Transrapid airport train
17:27:29 <Eddi|zuHause> the test track was closed down after a serious accident
17:27:44 <Eddi|zuHause> and all projects within germany failed
17:28:06 <andythenorth> frosch: I guess the test grf is declared failure? o_O
17:28:14 <Flygon> (it wouldn't be going 160-200km/h, only 80-100km/h to Sunshine, but still, no stops. They achieve much nicer speeds past Sunshine, due to lack of signal confusion possibility)
17:28:32 <Flygon> And the Japanese solution would likely shape up to be very expensive
17:29:13 <Flygon> And building the same sort of system with Iron Rail is impossible
17:29:18 <frosch> andythenorth: i wrote some lines in the logs
17:29:25 <Eddi|zuHause> there was some western USA project (las vegas), which i have no information on whether it was actually picked up
17:29:46 <Flygon> Half the appeal is the fast acceleration to 400-500km/h (or hell, even 100km/h) getting out of stations as fast as possible, to get good service frequency
17:29:47 <Eddi|zuHause> and the shanghai line, which is operational but a planned expansion was scrapped as well
17:29:54 <Flygon> And actually allow trans-outer suburb commuting
17:30:00 <Flygon> The USA thing was scrapped
17:30:17 <Flygon> The plan is an LA/SF to Las Vegas HST
17:30:26 <Flygon> But it's a bit of a s***storm
17:30:43 <Flygon> Considering they can't even get LA and SF linked by a HST
17:31:09 <Flygon> Honestly, at this rate, they're better off just creating Diesel-Hydralic DMU's like the VLocity, but with tilt functionality
17:31:20 <Flygon> Er, except the line's probably electrified...
17:31:43 <Flygon> so, get Electric-Hydralic EMU's. Much faster acceleration, and the 200km/h speed cap isn't an issue anyway, given the line probably won't allow much higher...
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17:32:35 <Flygon> It's a shame Hydralic transmissions for over 220km/h aren't a practicality. The acceleration benefits for that sort of transmission are marvelous
17:34:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think anything in california is electrified
17:34:45 <frosch> i believe the light is
17:34:51 <andythenorth> frosch: visual effect property should be 0x41 or so?
17:34:51 <Eddi|zuHause> only afaik, only eastern USA has significant electrified lines
17:35:10 <andythenorth> I wonder what nml has done there
17:35:46 <andythenorth> cb160 returns 1 = correct ?
17:36:03 <Flygon> I'm genuinely surprised LA-SF isn't some sort of electric
17:36:22 <Flygon> Isn't there some sort of at-least-hourly rail service existing that also services communities between those two cities?
17:36:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i really don't know.
17:37:09 <Eddi|zuHause> but the USA are known to be very diesel-centric
17:37:33 <Flygon> Only region with long distance electrics is Queensland
17:37:54 <Flygon> And two lines in Sydney that act as commuter services to Sydney, so... not sure if I count them as long distance
17:39:36 <frosch> oi, var 61 fails hard in debug gui :s
17:40:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i found debug gui for trains very useless
17:40:33 <Flygon> Though, with Diesel-Hydralic transmissions, a lot of advantages of electric (bar running costs for ultra-high frequency services... my god. V/Line only knows the pain of consuming absurd amounts of fuel when running services every 10-20 minutes on some lines with those HSTs) are lost
17:40:51 <andythenorth> debug gui is essential for industries, bit 'meh' for vehicles I've found
17:41:11 <andythenorth> meanwhile, I always try to visualise nml switches as varaction2, but I'm not smart enough
17:41:24 <andythenorth> and I can't seem to learn the proper nml syntax either
17:41:34 <andythenorth> so is this valid (no range checks)?
17:41:50 <andythenorth> nlmc compiles it ok
17:42:33 <frosch> also, maybe return two values, makes it more fance
17:45:42 <andythenorth> having one work would be good :P :)
17:45:46 <andythenorth> still failing :P
17:47:39 <andythenorth> frosch: I'm putting 0xFA in the registers, but shouldn't it be 32 bits?
17:48:15 <frosch> well, it's at position 0,0,0 relative to the vehicle
17:48:25 <frosch> if you supply more steam, you may want to vary the positions :p
17:49:06 <andythenorth> I don't know what nml does with the bits if I only supply a byte :P
17:49:18 <andythenorth> I was never good at this, and it's been a while :)
17:49:27 <andythenorth> something's wrong here anyway :)
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17:52:03 <andythenorth> might be my nml patch, might be my grf
17:55:25 <andythenorth> do I have to go read uncommented nfo :o
17:59:11 <Rubidium> andythenorth: nah, just open it in your favourite coding tool. Then select the whole contents of the file and do (usually edit->) comment. Then you got commented nfo ;)
18:01:24 <NGC3982> Alberth: Ill try it out.
18:04:52 <andythenorth> nmlc puts out pretty readable nfo
18:06:55 <andythenorth> this looks ok to me
18:07:06 <andythenorth> the varaction2 looks ok, and var 1C looks correct
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18:15:12 <Alberth> perhaps look a bit more at your paste?
18:16:24 <frosch> andythenorth: is there some callback?
18:16:34 <frosch> visual_effect also exists as callback
18:20:22 <andythenorth> frosch: look again at my paste order :D
18:20:43 <andythenorth> I'm returning 0xF2020202
18:20:53 <andythenorth> I had forgotten about endian-ness
18:21:44 <andythenorth> these effects are offset by about 2 tiles :P
18:25:00 <andythenorth> this grf is definitely doing something now
18:25:09 <andythenorth> might not be correct yet :)
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18:41:05 <andythenorth> frosch: 2 smoke plumes :D
18:41:15 <andythenorth> I won't screenie until I've got a nice example
18:41:23 <andythenorth> this one is....ugly
18:41:29 <frosch> can you test the rotation and such?
18:42:09 <andythenorth> you mean the custom effects?
18:42:30 <frosch> the relative position of the effect to the vehicle rotates with the vehicle orientation
18:43:36 <andythenorth> so on a large offset from 0,0,z it should look correct?
18:45:12 <andythenorth> I _think_ it's correct
18:45:33 <frosch> both longitudinal and cross offsets?
18:46:55 <frosch> not as easily routable like a train :)
18:47:05 <andythenorth> ships go where they want :(
18:48:10 <andythenorth> meh, don't test with ships where the offsets are questionable :P
18:48:31 <frosch> enable the bounding boxes?
18:49:15 * andythenorth counting on fingers for signed bytes :P
18:49:34 <andythenorth> that's how I know the offsets are borked
18:50:31 <andythenorth> rotation _appears_ correct
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19:28:51 <supermop> do you use any means to sketch stuff out
19:28:52 <andythenorth> I've got a branch started for the FISH stuff, I'll push commits in there until the toolchain is properly fixed
19:29:04 <andythenorth> supermop: pencil?
19:29:13 <supermop> or just go straight for the sprites
19:29:21 <supermop> i want to try to start drawing again
19:30:09 <supermop> i find drawing pixel artis so detailed right from the start that its hard to make quick passes to get an idea for things
19:30:54 <supermop> rather than very rough ideas for a vareity of houses, i spend hours getting partly through one sprite, then bored and frustrated
19:31:28 <supermop> i dont know if i would like modelling buildings withought rendering them any better
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19:32:38 <supermop> and i get unenthused about 'wasting effort' drawing in a scale or style that i might want to abandon in a few sprites
19:33:23 <supermop> has anyone made themed base sets? like a japan set base set? or .se base set?
19:34:00 <frosch> themed base sets make little sense
19:34:11 <frosch> you would rather make a newgrf
19:34:25 <supermop> i wonder if it would be easier to get started on a town set if one instead approached it first as a base set, with no new features, and instead aimed to produce a 1:1 equivalent of each default house
19:34:27 <frosch> "themed" means you want to use it for a specific game, so it should also be part of the savegame
19:34:52 <supermop> and then after that is complete, expand from there to create a fuller stand alone new grf
19:35:22 <supermop> i am assuming swedish houses are gpl
19:35:29 <frosch> anyway, newgrf are easier to make than basesets
19:35:52 <frosch> with basesets you have to deal with all the weird default offsets and such, with newgrf you can just set useful ones
19:36:55 <supermop> lets say i just compile a base set that uses an appropriate sprite from the swedish houses for each of the default houses, and the swedish rails sprites for the default rails, etc
19:38:00 <supermop> but that way if we so desired, we could play a multiplayer game where i play with swedish things, and you play with japanese things, even though they are functionally identical
19:38:30 <supermop> just one of many silly ideas i've had lately
19:39:35 <supermop> if i play a tropical game but load japan landscape, its the same as if i play a temperate game with jpn land loaded right?
19:40:05 <supermop> there is no effect on terrain or trees? just default industries and vehicles?
19:40:13 <supermop> sorry to be spamming the thread here
19:40:14 <frosch> except for town growth, vehicles, industries, ...
19:40:15 <NGC3982> Alberth: It works out great. I'm starting a server right now.
19:40:56 <supermop> so one could abuse the desert/rainforest elements in some way?
19:41:20 <supermop> or can a landscape newgrf introduce it's own similar effects?
19:43:02 <supermop> for example, i could provide green grass tiles for desert, but rain forest trees would still not grow there, so i could simulate different highland and lowland ecologies
19:44:52 <juzza1> all the different climates have their own landscape sprites, a landscape newgrf only replaces one or several of them. i'd assume japanese landscape only replaces temperate sprites, so it would have no effect in other climates
19:46:30 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26225 trunk/src/cpu.cpp (2014-01-04 19:46:24 UTC)
19:46:31 <DorpsGek> -Document: more tidbits about cpuid and PIC (Eagle_Rainbow)
19:47:25 <tyteen4a03> how do I see a list of airports? can't find the Stations button on the UI
19:48:31 <juzza1> supermop: sure you could do that, but then you wouldn't have desert. there is no "spec" for landscape, only the possibility to replace sprites
19:48:51 <andythenorth> frosch: so what's next? Test the custom stuff?
19:48:55 <andythenorth> or extend nml properly?
19:50:48 <frosch> i haven't coded the custom stuff
19:50:55 <frosch> i have some ideas for nml
19:51:08 <frosch> and some buildin function for the register value
19:53:56 <frosch> tyteen4a03: it's the rightmost button of the second to leftmost group
19:54:02 <frosch> next to townlist and such
19:55:20 <frosch> andythenorth: anyway, is it any good?
19:55:26 <frosch> does it solve the requirements?
19:56:16 <andythenorth> perfectly so far :)
20:05:37 <Rubidium> is anyone using 32 bits OpenTTD on a 64 bits computer because that's faster?
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20:18:42 <andythenorth> Rubidium: not intentionally, how could I check?
20:19:05 <andythenorth> iirc OS X had some thing about running apps in 32 bit, but that might be old
20:31:41 <andythenorth> frosch: FISH sprites have wrong proportions in / and \ views :D
20:31:49 <andythenorth> so funnels are in wrong place :P
20:32:05 <andythenorth> I could probably handle that in the cb if I could be bothered
20:35:54 <andythenorth> maybe the interface should be: I draw pink pixels in the sprite, the game generates effect vehicles there :P
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21:55:49 <DorpsGek> DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 1 hour, 19 minutes, and 51 seconds ago: <andythenorth> way easier :D
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23:40:53 <Xaroth|Work> LordAro: thought you'd appreciate it
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