IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-12-03
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00:34:08 <Killer11> engine running sound is really really weird
00:34:14 <Killer11> sometimes it loops properly
00:34:20 <Killer11> but sometimes it does whatever it wants
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02:33:44 <geoffreybeene> Trains are pretty rad, dudes
02:33:51 <geoffreybeene> big mf'ing machines
02:36:23 <geoffreybeene> that is a lot of heavy stuff yo
02:38:03 <geoffreybeene> Does anyone in here do something liek OpenTTD for a living?
02:38:08 <geoffreybeene> Logistics planning, freight distribution?
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05:11:43 <geoffreybeene> if you're idling here, don't say anything
05:12:34 <geoffreybeene> fight the man, man
05:13:31 <geoffreybeene> do you still play much ottd supercheese?
05:13:47 <Supercheese> a bit here and there
05:14:15 <Supercheese> I end up spending more time making patches and grfs than playing actual games
05:14:23 <geoffreybeene> i'm just getting into it and its hard to find people to talk to about it, apparently
05:14:37 <Supercheese> timezones, perhaps
05:14:50 <Supercheese> I'm GMT -8, few people are near that in this channel
05:14:52 <geoffreybeene> where do you thinkmost of this channel is?
05:14:57 <Supercheese> Europe, definitely
05:15:26 <geoffreybeene> oh bc the USA's rail system is crap
05:15:36 <Supercheese> they tore up the rails in my town :(
05:15:43 <Supercheese> used to run right through, no more
05:16:03 <geoffreybeene> not getting much use?
05:16:12 <Supercheese> yeah, they were worth more in scrap value apparently
05:16:22 <geoffreybeene> damn, thats harsh
05:16:33 <geoffreybeene> i'm gmt -6 for what its worth, Chicagoland
05:16:42 <geoffreybeene> live right by the Burlington Northern Santa Fe route
05:17:58 <Supercheese> well, I'm not too far from Spokane, WA, which is a big rail city
05:18:32 <Supercheese> founded by the railroad companies, if I'm not mistaken
05:18:44 <geoffreybeene> Oh cool, didn't know that
05:18:48 <geoffreybeene> I'll be cycling through that area next summer
05:19:22 <Supercheese> Northern Pacific Railway it seems
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05:21:27 <geoffreybeene> since the advent of path signals, is there really any need for regular presignals?
05:22:04 <Supercheese> not for my simple networks anyway :P
05:41:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember actually using any others since then
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11:00:04 <Killer11> So why is sound handling for vehicle runnign sounds so weird
11:00:16 <Killer11> i expected it to just play a sound in a loop
11:00:34 <Killer11> but it seems that it plays a random ammount of repetitions whenever it wants
11:02:44 <juzza1> if the sound is not exactly the same length as a single loop is, the previous sound will get overwritten and may sound weird
11:02:57 <juzza1> so it doesn't actually stop playing when the loop ends
11:03:11 <Killer11> how long is one loop?
11:04:34 <Killer11> i mean what is the length of the soudn file one should use for an engine runnign sound
11:05:40 <juzza1> i've asked it a few times. in the specs it is mentioned as "per engine tick"
11:06:00 <juzza1> but i've never gotten a precise answer to how long this tick is, so i cannot answer your question
11:07:26 <Killer11> : / Shame because I've gotten myself some pretty clear and specific engine soudns i can use for my set
11:08:26 <Killer11> All thanks to one guy filming local trains with a very good camera all of the time
11:08:41 <juzza1> we also have some good engine sounds for Finnish Trainset, but never got them to sound just right because of this
11:09:54 <Killer11> i'll try to bug planetmaker as he is "the father of nml" i guess
11:09:59 <juzza1> one set that does the running sounds right is NARS, i tried decompiling it and looking at the sound files
11:10:40 <Killer11> at least i can use the whistle/departing sound i guess
11:10:47 <juzza1> they were mostly around one second long with a fade-out in the end, but i really couldnt duplicate that effect myself. the running sounds still sounded bad
11:11:58 <Killer11> I had this idea of looping an engine soudn and adding that metalic clangy noise that railcars make in the background as a subtle thing
11:12:12 <Killer11> weird thign itsometimes looped right even being 2 seconds long
11:12:19 <Killer11> but most of the tiem it got messed up
11:12:30 <Killer11> huge shame as it sounded really well when it sounded right
11:13:02 <NGC3982> It does sound like a neat thing.
11:13:22 <NGC3982> As long as many trains does not get too noisy.
11:13:49 <Killer11> seeing as the backgroudn noises are just passing train/diesel it really fits diesel trains nicely and is easy to blend in
11:14:07 <Killer11> i make it quiet and subtle and it just adds atmosphere
11:14:32 <juzza1> yes, its great if you get it right
11:14:50 <juzza1> in NARS, the hum of those diesels is almost soothing :P
11:15:05 <Killer11> it's one thign i really liekd about RRT2
11:15:21 <Killer11> that and the soundtrack
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11:15:35 <NGC3982> There is a different sound in NARS trains?
11:16:05 <juzza1> yes, many electric/diesel trains have running sounds
11:16:16 <juzza1> and steamers too, actually
11:17:09 <NGC3982> I did not know NewGRFs came with sound packs at all.
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11:27:40 <Killer11> i have access to profesional microphones so i may go capture soem sounds for myself sometime in the future
11:28:14 <Killer11> we have doubledecker EMUs here that have that distinct voltage change noise
11:28:22 <Killer11> where the electric buzz pitches up in increments
11:28:39 <Killer11> it sounds really cool and it's really audible every time the train departs
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16:36:27 <planetmaker> Killer11, with access to professional mics you could make a complete soundset. OpenTTD still misses a free soundset (i.e. one which can be shipped without 2nd though, under GPL v2(+))
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16:37:34 <Killer11> might be something to do durign the summer
16:38:01 <Killer11> i do happen to live very near an active railway station
16:38:17 <planetmaker> well. OpenTTD needs more sounds than just train :)
16:40:50 <Killer11> I'll see if I can contribute
16:41:25 <Killer11> So since you are here would you be able to shed some light on how the game handles vehicle running sound
16:41:34 <frosch123> wow, forums are surprisingly non-spammy today. was there some downtime?
16:42:03 <Killer11> and by that i mean how long does my engine sound have to be for it to loop properly
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16:44:06 <planetmaker> I wish I could, Killer11. I will need to investigate that, too. Unless frosch123 knows by heart
16:45:04 <frosch123> they won't loop properly
16:45:11 <planetmaker> frosch123, not as far as I know. But I've not had much time to look :)
16:46:05 <frosch123> the frequency for vehicle movement effects is not reliable enough to make a smooth sound
16:46:14 <frosch123> you can hear that with pikka's sets
16:46:37 <Killer11> dang, i guess i'll just have to dumb this idea then
16:47:03 <Killer11> which makes me ask why is this implemented this way?
16:47:16 <Killer11> you have the variable of engines current speed
16:47:44 <Killer11> wouldn't it be simpler to just if vehicle speed >0 play sound X in a loop
16:47:54 <frosch123> newgrf can only start a sound effect, they cannot specify to loop a sound effect
16:48:06 <frosch123> starting the sound effect is thus attached to the game state
16:48:12 <Killer11> using current speed you could also play different sounds at different speeds if you chose to
16:48:20 <frosch123> the game speed changes with fast forward, and lag, and is generally not realtime-ish
16:48:49 <frosch123> there was the idea to extent the newgrf specs by allowing grfs to tell ottd to loop a sound
16:48:59 <frosch123> but nothing was specified or even coded in that direction
16:49:51 <Killer11> wish i knew how to navigate or write complex code
16:50:08 <Killer11> i'd probably tackle that thing, openttd needs an actual sound system really badly
16:50:24 <Killer11> so much of a games atmosphere is driven by sound effects
16:50:52 <frosch123> i generally mute all games
16:51:04 <Killer11> i only mute when they sound bad
16:51:10 <frosch123> sound is reserved for real music :)
16:51:42 <frosch123> i don't want any ring ring in my music
16:51:51 <Killer11> i wouldn't ever mute railroad tycoon 2 unless i wanted to listen to a podcast
16:52:04 <Killer11> music is beutifully chosen, the train sounds are plain cool etc
16:52:58 <Killer11> if we had actual sound control we could make it so effects like money ding and so on could be muted separately
16:53:07 <Killer11> they are more notifiers than atmosphere
16:54:57 <Killer11> yup, a comprehensive sound engine rewrite could make this game trully shine, it would also take tremendous effort tho.
16:55:03 <Killer11> why can't we have nice things
16:55:23 <frosch123> you can actually mute those sounds individually
16:57:50 <Taede> 'create your own sound set, omit sounds you do not wish to hear?'
16:58:04 <Killer11> ah yes i foudn it now
16:58:09 <frosch123> maybe it is 1.4 only, cannot remember .)
16:59:02 <Killer11> is volume control of sfx/music accesable without starting a new game?
16:59:29 <frosch123> if there is volume control at all, then you can also change it in game
16:59:45 <frosch123> but i am not sure there actually is :p
16:59:53 <Killer11> that is a giant flaw in the UI
17:00:14 <Killer11> it's hidden all the way into the music player ingame
17:00:24 <Killer11> you cannot adjust volume in the main menu
17:01:56 <Killer11> 2.0 GUI rewamp seems like a good goal
17:02:19 <Killer11> i've been playign this game for so many years i've gotten used to the extremely quirky menu
17:02:33 <Killer11> but when i look at it now and think what a new player might think of it
17:02:47 <Killer11> it's the most confusing and hard to navigate thing i've seen in a while
17:03:23 <LordAro> we (the devs, not really including myself) are programmers, not designers ;)
17:04:29 <Killer11> Regarding the main menu that you see when you boot up the game, if I whipped up a representation of a new menu in say html just to show what I mean from usabilty perspective
17:04:50 <Killer11> would you look at it and evaluate my suggestions?
17:04:51 <frosch> there are a number of suggestions for that
17:04:53 <LordAro> html is hardly necessary, just a series of pictures would do :l
17:05:15 <frosch> there is a completely interactive html version of the mapgen gui
17:05:21 <Killer11> interactivity is kidn of neccesary to shwo off interactive elements
17:07:35 <frosch> the problem is that when you make that stuff new from scratch you encounter dozen of small inconsistencies and weirdnesses
17:07:45 <frosch> for which you have to decide how they shall actually behave
17:08:30 <frosch> "generating a new random seed when opening the window" in "main menu" vs in "editor" is one of the weirdest ones
17:09:04 <frosch> ottd has always been good when there were small steps to slowly improve things
17:09:18 <frosch> but here you get quite a lot together
17:10:06 <Killer11> Knowing the origins of the original source this is not surprising, and any interface rewrite should begin by creating a clear layer of separation from game logic and gui
17:15:03 <Killer11> ottd wiki roadmpas section is silly
17:15:14 <Killer11> "There is no idea what is going to be in 1.1.0."
17:15:40 <LordAro> they haven't been updated in some time ;)
17:15:54 <Killer11> you do have an internal roadmap between devs right?
17:15:56 <LordAro> basically because there is no overall goal
17:16:23 <LordAro> devs are aware of what other devs are working on, but other than that, probably not
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17:19:47 <Killer11> At this point in time the ammount of incremental upgrades that coudl be doen to the base game is kind of low when you think about it, especially exlcudign the current tasks devs are workign on
17:20:53 <Killer11> there are things they coudl do but all of them are huge, the sound engine rewrite i mentioned, the guy rewrite or the constantly thrown arround map array extension
17:20:59 <Killer11> all those sound like 2.0 material
17:22:09 <Killer11> then again easy for me to talk I have no idea on how the dev team is doing time-wise
17:22:16 <Killer11> this is a free project afterall
17:23:26 <Eddi|zuHause> there's loads of small things to do
17:24:28 <Eddi|zuHause> like write the drawing part for diagonal rail/road crossings
17:25:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i have all the functional parts (map array, pathfinder, etc.) somewhere
17:26:30 <Eddi|zuHause> also the adjacent crossing patch needs something so you can safely upgrade old games
17:26:55 <Eddi|zuHause> as in: road vehicles shouldn't suddenly start up and crash into the train right in front of them
17:28:30 <Killer11> it's small in what the user sees, but might be huge codewise
17:28:58 <Killer11> like longer rail vehicles without newgrf hacks
17:29:06 <Killer11> end user sees longer vagon
17:29:27 <Killer11> coder sees a coding nightmare
17:30:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Killer11: my longer vehicles newgrf stuff isn't actually that much code
17:30:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Killer11: btw have you gotten around to testing it?
17:30:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Killer11: the problem with my approach to longer vehicles is that you need a lot more sprites
17:31:03 <Killer11> i've been otherwise busy rebuildign my set and doing work for college, so not yet
17:32:27 <Killer11> one thing i would really really liek to see in makign scenarios is the equvalent of Starcraft scenario triggers
17:32:33 <Eddi|zuHause> first, for the "slicing" of vehicles so they don't glitch in tunnels etc (those are automatically cut by size/offset templates)
17:32:59 <Eddi|zuHause> second for the turning angles so they don't stick out that far in curves (those cannot be created automatically)
17:33:02 <Killer11> to enable ecnonomy changes/ prescripted events in scenarios
17:33:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Killer11: well we have gamescripts for that
17:34:32 <Killer11> can i set them to the poitn where if date = x then display custom newspaper text and all cargo payment rates = 50% of their original value
17:35:18 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if the payment stuff is implemented (it certainly would be possible), but the rest should be easy
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17:37:10 <Killer11> that's quite cool then
17:37:20 <Killer11> i'll have to look it up
17:37:34 <Killer11> can these scripts be saved into the map file
17:38:10 <Killer11> so i don't have to throw random files on bananas
17:39:03 <Killer11> And since I am spamming ideas one thing that i really liked in RRT2 was territories
17:39:30 <Killer11> you could create a territory in a scenario editor and assign map tiles to it
17:39:59 <Killer11> this way you could create "countries" and then could set prices for companies to buy permission to build in them
17:40:30 <Killer11> it adds some extra gameplay especially in real world scenarios
17:41:35 <Killer11> combine that with the whole recession thing and you could have different territories having different economies providing different challenges to the player
17:45:05 <Eddi|zuHause> scripts have to be put on bananas separately, but you can hide them from general users so they're only downloaded when you donwload the scenario
17:45:38 <Killer11> I happen to have a map that's nearing completion and I might just have some uses for this stuff
17:46:28 <Eddi|zuHause> zuu is the expert on these matters
17:47:03 <Killer11> Still it would be cool if you played for example europe and chose to start in oen specific country and as certain events come up you could essentially dump a load of cash as "lobying" that would increase the chance of certain game events turnign out how you would like
17:48:07 <Killer11> so for exampel if you play an eastern european country and your business is mostly with russia and your country decises to join either EU or a eastern country union of some sort
17:48:37 <Killer11> it would be beneficial for your company to support the eastern union thign rather than EU as you'd have to pay less taxes etc
17:48:49 <Killer11> current game is just too easy
17:49:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm afraid there are a LOT of things missing until you can make this feature
17:49:52 <Killer11> 2.0 because it's big and 2.0 because this goes outside the original ttd concept
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17:51:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really see a 2.0 happening, as it would basically mean you artificially hold back some large things to make a bigger jump by releasing them all simultaneously
17:51:48 <Eddi|zuHause> instead of incrementally adding them when they are ready
17:52:13 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: so ottd should drop the "1." of the version?
17:52:44 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: that would be a 4.0 then :p
17:53:16 <LordAro> well, if 2.0 never happens, there's no point in having the "1." on the front of the version
17:53:33 <LordAro> it'd only be like firefox changing their version system
17:53:49 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: the other option was to release 2.0 in 2020, so it continues to align with the year
17:54:01 <Eddi|zuHause> (2013 = 1.3, 2014 = 1.4, ...)
17:54:23 <LordAro> so there's no 1.10/1.A ? that's an option too :L
17:54:34 <LordAro> 1.10 would get confusing, anyway
17:55:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and knowing Rubidium, it's going to be something entirely different anyway :p
17:55:20 <Killer11> last tiem i saw this discussion on the forums
17:55:23 <LordAro> OpenTTD, version ":-)"
17:55:54 <Killer11> 2.0 was talkede abotu as a thing that would go beyond the concept of ttd
17:56:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Killer11: don't read the 2.0 thread :p
17:56:18 <Killer11> as everything up to today was all just expanding the original concept
17:56:27 <Killer11> makign existing thigns better
17:56:58 <Killer11> now completely new gameplay elements could warrant a step up to version 2.0
17:57:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Killer11: sure, things like cargodist are completely new game elements
17:57:43 <Killer11> most 2.0 threads are full of peopel that think that 2.0 woudl happen in 5 seconds if devs woudl justl isten to them
17:57:53 <Eddi|zuHause> but that alone doesn'T really warrant a 2.0
17:58:06 <Killer11> that's more cargo behaviour than say
17:58:10 <Killer11> addign cargo i nthe first place
17:58:22 <Killer11> like addign a rudimentary "political" system would be
17:58:46 <Eddi|zuHause> adding cargos was possible in 0.6 or so
17:59:02 <Killer11> no i mean adding cargo element to the game
17:59:38 <Killer11> like if ttsd was just a game where you build pretend railways and do nothign with them and then devs implement cargo and you can now transport it and earn money etc
17:59:53 <Killer11> that's adding a new core element to the game
18:00:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Killer11: in the past ~2 years the development was more towards improving the modability (NewGRFs, scripts) than direct gameplay features
18:02:02 <Eddi|zuHause> which means that the core game hardly changes, but an entirely new class of newgrfs may significantly alter the game
18:02:09 <Killer11> so 0.x was making all the core features work 1.x is improvement on said features and modability 2.x could be adding new gameplay elements
18:02:47 <LordAro> sounds like planning too far ahead, imo ;)
18:02:48 <Eddi|zuHause> 1.0 was defined as "we have a fully playable out-of-the-box game instead of depending on the original data files"
18:03:11 <Eddi|zuHause> everything else was nice-to-have features
18:03:35 <Killer11> long term plannign that is not too specific is a very healthy thign in any project
18:04:13 <Killer11> and by sayign 2.0 could happen and it woudl involve tackling big things that would add new elements of the game doesn't mean it must happen right now
18:04:30 <Killer11> every project must have a vision
18:04:34 <Killer11> vision drives progress
18:04:40 <V453000> YES 2.0 DISCUSSION XD BRING ALL YOU GOT
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18:05:27 * Xaroth|Work grabs the popcorn
18:05:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Killer11: the only step meaningful enough to warrant a 2.0 would be a "drop support for existing mods/backwards compatibility" to allow entirely new things, e.g. 3D models
18:05:53 <Eddi|zuHause> and i don't see anybody wanting to do such a move
18:06:26 <Killer11> you just set up a move noone would like and then assume that is the only way we coudl call it a 2.0 that is kidn of cheaty
18:06:28 <Eddi|zuHause> the general argument at this point would be: "make a game from scratch, and then call it something different"
18:07:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Killer11: that's my point, anything short of such a "game-breaking" move might as well just be another 1.x release
18:08:22 <Killer11> because adding rudimentary political system, calling it 2.0 and then putting the last 1.x version as the final of that branch bar bugfixes would also be a thing
18:08:31 <Killer11> 3d models are not gameplay features
18:08:53 <Killer11> it's eyecandy, it has nothign to do with gameplay unless you also include freeform buildign etc
18:09:03 <Killer11> which is a whole other can of worms
18:09:35 <Killer11> big gameplay changes/additions are what could warrant version demarkations
18:10:41 <Killer11> 2.0 thing is a feature that has enough support as to be seen as a good change but too big to be simply turned off with a switch
18:11:02 <Killer11> thus warranting games to be split into two, 1.0 and 2.0
18:12:19 <V453000> or you can call your software version 9408 over 9000 by 408 and nobody can say shit either (:
18:12:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. that's why i said 3D, because it would drop support for all sprite-based NewGRFs
18:12:55 <Killer11> yes but it's not the only example and that was my point
18:13:16 <Killer11> you did claim that 3d is not a thign you or anyone else woudl want and it woudl stop the game from being ttd
18:13:46 <Killer11> there are big features that alter gameplay in a way that make it not like current ttd but it's still i nthe same spirit and coudl be called a logical sequel
18:13:54 <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't have to be 3D, it was more of an example
18:15:09 <Killer11> "and i don't see anybody wanting to do such a move " it was a loaded example tho
18:16:43 <Killer11> also just an aside no strategy game that only uses x and y dimensiosn for actual gameplay logic should be 3d
18:17:19 <Killer11> there are big issues when you use 3d enviroment to try and visualize your completely 2d game
18:45:24 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26142 /trunk/src/lang (latvian.txt turkish.txt) (2013-12-03 18:45:16 UTC)
18:45:25 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:26 <DorpsGek> latvian - 10 changes by Parastais
18:45:27 <DorpsGek> turkish - 49 changes by wakeup
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20:00:30 <andythenorth> tickety tickety tock
20:01:30 <frosch123> i have a script for that
20:03:25 * andythenorth just had to set a clock on a windows VM
20:03:28 <andythenorth> strange experience
20:03:57 <frosch123> doesn't the vm sync to the host clock?
20:04:21 <frosch123> i skipped installing ntp on my vms
20:04:49 <andythenorth> you'd think it would sync
20:05:01 <andythenorth> I paid £0 for my VM software, so shouldn't complain :P
20:05:14 <andythenorth> didn't even pay for Windows, using their web dev testing free editions :P
20:05:52 <frosch123> so, was it worth the £0 ?
20:07:38 <andythenorth> I would have happily paid twice as much
20:08:23 <andythenorth> new graphics to add to IH
20:18:55 <V453000> andythenorth actually adds graphics, not code? :D :P
20:19:23 <V453000> I obviously figured that :P
20:19:32 <V453000> wasnt so obviously but yeah!
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20:19:55 <frosch123> are you comparing your sprite counts?
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20:23:10 <andythenorth> must be christmas :P
20:24:04 <V453000> hate white errors much
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21:20:04 <andythenorth> how do cdist 'planned' amounts relate to actual cargo delivered to station?
21:20:33 <andythenorth> i.e. industry is producing 180 crates / month; station has 58 crates planned for routing
21:21:09 <frosch123> cdist only distributed the cargo which is delivered to stations
21:21:27 <frosch123> the station rating affecting industry->station transfer is unaffected
21:21:34 <andythenorth> frosch123: thanks, that adds up
21:22:25 * andythenorth continues trying to game cdist
21:24:20 <andythenorth> there must be a way to trick cdist into re-allocating cargo to different destinations
21:24:22 <andythenorth> (amounts allocated over time - I don't mean rerouting specific packets)
21:26:12 <andythenorth> or to explain better
21:26:41 <andythenorth> there must be a reason why cdist allocates cargo to destinations in certain ratios
21:26:51 <andythenorth> which I am trying to figure out so I can beat it
21:32:03 <andythenorth> didn't see any pattern yet :(
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21:54:58 <frosch123> i don't get how python decides when a variable is module global, or function local
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