IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-11-27
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00:35:20 *** treaki_ has joined #openttd
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00:51:12 <geoffreybeene> HELLO openttd friends!
00:51:20 <geoffreybeene> i am happy to see so many people in this channel, and hope not everyone is idling
00:52:39 <Superuser> sorry to disappoint you
00:52:42 <Superuser> everyone is idling :P
00:53:11 <geoffreybeene> I just discovered this game last week and am becoming rapidly obsessed
00:53:13 <LordAro> also doesn't help that you've lost/about to lose the europeans
00:53:21 <geoffreybeene> it scratches an itch i never knew existed
00:55:09 <geoffreybeene> am i too enthusiastic
00:55:29 <geoffreybeene> i just want to talk railroad layout theory and design, and learn tips
00:55:58 <LordAro> other than Superuser, this channel goes a bit dead around this time
00:56:01 <geoffreybeene> no one's so excited about the game anymore?
00:56:16 <geoffreybeene> That's a friggin' ton of idlers
00:56:30 <Superuser> I am, I just suck at it :P
00:56:39 <geoffreybeene> so do i my friend, we have that in common
00:56:42 <alluke> there should be autodisconnect after 1 hour of idling
00:56:54 <LordAro> half of these people are just long forogetten bouncers, still ticking away
00:57:07 <LordAro> alluke: that wouldn't be very helpful, to anyone
00:57:13 <geoffreybeene> Can I ask a simple question then? What mapsize do you like to use?
00:57:22 <geoffreybeene> I just tried 512x512 for the first time and it seems monstrous
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00:57:34 <LordAro> geoffreybeene: try 2048^2 then :p
00:57:45 <geoffreybeene> i feel like 95% of the industries would just disappear
00:57:53 <alluke> tell me what to build into my game and ill provide you a screenshot of that
00:58:22 <geoffreybeene> a cross-island passenger distribution system
00:58:35 <geoffreybeene> passengers must go from one side of the map to the other
00:58:49 <alluke> train-ship-train or so?
00:58:55 <geoffreybeene> train bus train
00:59:27 <geoffreybeene> what's the point of anything in a sandbox game?
00:59:32 <geoffreybeene> because it's fun
00:59:35 <alluke> trains can go same routes as buses
00:59:49 <alluke> only water can stop them
00:59:51 <geoffreybeene> maybe a bus can get passengers from parts of the city your stations cant
01:00:00 <geoffreybeene> i'm new to the game so idk
01:00:18 <alluke> from other side of big city to other
01:00:27 <alluke> ill see if thats possible in my current game
01:00:31 <glx> 512x512 is indeed big for the first time
01:01:11 <alluke> do metros count as trains?
01:03:37 <geoffreybeene> whats multiplayer likew?
01:03:41 <geoffreybeene> is it really competitive
01:03:48 <geoffreybeene> it seems more fun but is intimidating
01:04:05 <alluke> there arent proper servers with proper newgrfs
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01:04:30 <geoffreybeene> I haven't tried any newgrfs yet
01:04:40 <geoffreybeene> i hear NARS2 is cool
01:05:16 <alluke> company colours and unrealistic specs
01:05:29 <geoffreybeene> what would you recommend? any recommendations on an I too
01:05:45 <geoffreybeene> Sorry for so many Q's but I am quite excited about this game
01:06:43 <alluke> well there are many good country-specific train sets
01:07:24 <alluke> then i recommed you us train set and canadian train set
01:09:04 <glx> easier to recommand stuff in bananas
01:09:17 <alluke> those arent in bananas :(
01:16:01 <geoffreybeene> any general tips newbies should know?
01:16:07 <geoffreybeene> i just found out about the advanced orders you can give
01:16:17 <geoffreybeene> experimenting with 3 way junctions
01:16:43 <glx> always start with a coal service
01:17:33 <alluke> ive always started with pasx
01:17:47 <geoffreybeene> I've eben setting up coal
01:17:51 <geoffreybeene> and then some buses in towns i like to promote growth
01:18:00 <geoffreybeene> planes seem like cheat money so i've been avoiding them
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01:39:28 <geoffreybeene> is there an easy guesstimate for train HP = total tonnage
01:44:56 <alluke> for shunting 1000 tons at 35 kmh you dont need much more than 1000 hp
01:45:08 <alluke> but mass and tractive effort
01:46:48 <geoffreybeene> teh more mass a train pulls the more likely it'll break down right?
01:47:57 <alluke> i have breakdowns always turned off
01:48:07 <geoffreybeene> maybe ill do that
01:48:18 <geoffreybeene> i dont feel like a lot of awesome gameplay is being contributed by them
01:56:03 <Japa_> I want an indian train set, but the only way I'll get one is making one, and I'm pretty shit at pixel art
01:58:08 <alluke> the finnish train set took over 8 years to get released
01:59:07 <Japa_> My attempts just end up looking like matchboxes.
02:10:29 <alluke> the 8bpp doesnt look bad at all
02:10:48 <alluke> and zbase is ugly i gotta admit
02:12:32 <Japa_> I kinda want to draw a zbased sized 8bpp sprite, but I fear that would be beyond my abilities to make it not suck
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02:14:35 <geoffreybeene> What year do buses show up?
02:14:40 <geoffreybeene> I'm 1931 and just got a plane, but no bus
02:15:26 <alluke> some newgrfs buses even earlier
02:15:42 <ZacoOne> how do i share my first completed game?
02:16:10 <alluke> upload the .sav somewhere and share a link
02:16:17 <geoffreybeene> you can complete the game?
02:17:09 <alluke> the game "ends" at 2050 which means that you get a poster about the winner and then the playing continues like nothing happened
02:17:12 <ZacoOne> well i reached 2051. it's not really complete i guess
02:17:33 <Japa_> What's the default starting year?
02:18:38 <Japa_> starting earlier than that with some nice newgrfs can be pretty fun, but if you make the mistake of turning on inflation, you get !!FUN!!
02:19:38 <ZacoOne> is there a preffered upload site or will any do?
02:19:54 <Japa_> Depends what you're uploading.
02:20:15 <geoffreybeene> I started at 1925 with default grf
02:20:23 <geoffreybeene> it's fun just having steam engines all over the place right now
02:20:53 <ZacoOne> cool thx. i think i'll try ttforums first
02:20:56 <alluke> i recommed getting dropbox but you can make new topic to the forums and post the save there
02:20:59 <Japa_> 1850 with a newgrf that gives period engines and horse carts. Good times.
02:21:20 <alluke> horse carts that dont work with realistic acceleration >:(
02:23:38 <Japa_> Also don't have realistic stats. 1 horse carriage: 15HP
02:24:06 <geoffreybeene> Does it matter what order on the list your Conditional orders are?
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02:27:31 <alluke> 4:20 went 7 minutes ago
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02:31:03 <alluke> at least its the correct subforum
02:32:20 <ZacoOne> Is there a specific location for me to do this?
02:32:53 <alluke> i see you used maglevs
02:33:36 <alluke> weird way of building you have
02:33:59 <ZacoOne> yes sir! after watching hours of youtube and reading this is what i came up with.
02:34:48 <ZacoOne> I definately want to improve so please let me know where I an make corrections
02:34:56 <geoffreybeene> these implicit orders are screwing me up--I connected two large cities by rail to ecarry passengers
02:34:57 <alluke> i can share some of my old 64x64 games
02:35:00 <geoffreybeene> there are 3 cities in between
02:35:14 <geoffreybeene> I want the train to go between the two end cities, but if it hits 100% load percentage, to go nonstop to the end
02:35:43 <ZacoOne> that would be greatly appreciated. I have a long way to go...
02:36:29 <geoffreybeene> I'm with you Zaco
02:37:16 <ZacoOne> Good to know I'm not alone!
02:38:33 <ZacoOne> yes with the airports. i want to attempt with coal as the money maker next time
02:40:33 <ZacoOne> i've been getting the "missing files" error. how do i fix that
02:41:27 <alluke> there should be the check online content button
02:43:23 <ZacoOne> I dl all online content. i playing version 1.3.2. is not compatable?
02:44:33 <ZacoOne> oh ok. get it! which newgrf are you using?
02:44:45 <alluke> which are you missing?
02:46:37 <ZacoOne> none. all online content is accounted for. are newgrfs elsewhere that i don't know about?
02:49:29 <ZacoOne> i dont have any currently active though they are downloaded.
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03:00:09 <geoffreybeene> How do you upgrade your HQ?
03:00:12 <geoffreybeene> Just company value?
03:00:54 <geoffreybeene> Zaco: re coal as moneymaker, I started the game in 1925 and set up 4 routes, 2 Coal routes with 3 mines each, and 2 iron routes with 3 mines each
03:01:08 <geoffreybeene> Making over 400k a year by 1927
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13:06:08 <djgummikuh> some days back I asked around here for gamescript functions to alter company balance. The API in 1.3.2 only has limited support for that, someone here (I hate my bad memory) told me that the next version of OpenTTD would have extended support - my question is, does 1.3.3-RC2 already have this extended Script support?
13:06:41 <Xaroth|Work> it should if it was planned for 1.3.3
13:06:49 <Xaroth|Work> else it's not due for 1.3.3
13:07:13 <djgummikuh> I assume it is. SOmeone here showed me a javadoc page or something with these functions, do you know where that is?
13:07:51 <Xaroth|Work> me? no, I only work with the admin port
13:08:13 <Xaroth|Work> haven't looked at nogo since it was designed
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13:13:11 <kostiak> I'm trying to run the USA scenario and I can't figure out how
13:13:25 <kostiak> I mean i downloaded it and it starts, but I can't build any stations of any kind
13:15:43 <Xaroth|Work> none what-so-ever
13:15:51 <Xaroth|Work> but I'm probably not the best person to ask
13:24:45 <planetmaker> djgummikuh, the changelog is available for those versions :-)
13:24:56 <planetmaker> Generally new features are only due in major version,s though
13:25:50 <planetmaker> kostiak, I don't know that scenario. But there's a couple of broken scenarios which start too early, so that no vehicles are around
13:26:06 <planetmaker> try to date-cheat yourself forward to 1950 and see whether you then have vehicles available
13:26:14 <kostiak> when should the earlist vehicles be around?
13:26:30 <planetmaker> depends on choice of newgrf. default vehicles start around 1930s
13:27:53 <kostiak> ok yeah, edited it so it starts in 1930 and have bus stops now
13:28:08 <kostiak> never understood newgrfs really :(
13:29:12 <planetmaker> well. this is not about newgrfs now. The scenario designer clearly set a wrong date for the scenario
13:30:03 <kostiak> i think he used some other newgrfs
13:30:39 <kostiak> but his post is in german, and with the google translation coupled with my total lack of newgrf knowledge, no idea what to do to make it work properly
13:42:55 <planetmaker> ah. well. I guess that's one of those scenarios where the authors thought it's a good idea if you modify NewGRF settings before you actually start
13:45:37 <planetmaker> sadly modifying NewGRFs on an existing map makes it easy to wreak havoc with the map
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13:49:11 <djgummikuh> planetmaker: so where do you have the API Doc for the game scripts
13:49:20 <djgummikuh> is that the name of the Scripting language?
13:49:34 <djgummikuh> Xaroth|Work: what exactly do you do via the admin port?
13:50:11 <djgummikuh> I would like to take or give money from / to a company via the admin port
13:53:12 <planetmaker> NoGo is another name for game scripts
13:53:47 <planetmaker> nogo.openttd.org is your friend for the docs
13:54:20 <Xaroth|Work> djgummikuh: the admin port does not do that, however, it can communicate with nogo scripts who can then facilitate actions (like giving/taking money)
13:54:36 <Xaroth|Work> and I made one of the libraries around that implement the admin port protocol
13:55:36 <planetmaker> Join #openttdcoop to see how it's used to manage the servers ;-)
13:55:50 <planetmaker> but then, not much to see really
13:56:29 <Xaroth|Work> i should actually hop by there every now and then
13:56:57 <planetmaker> honestly, I'm not sure whether our PublicServer already uses Soap or not yet
13:57:09 <planetmaker> but the Welcome server and ProZone do
13:57:21 <planetmaker> indeed, very nice
13:57:29 <planetmaker> Taede does an excellent job there
13:57:35 <Xaroth|Work> single bot instance, or multiple bots?
13:57:42 <planetmaker> one bot, multiple servers
14:08:37 <djgummikuh> ok regarding nogo.openttd.org
14:08:51 <djgummikuh> "trunk" -> does that resemble upcoming 1.3.3 or 1.4?
14:09:05 <planetmaker> current development branch. thus -> 1.4
14:09:38 <djgummikuh> ok I'm asking because there is no 1.3.3 on the page.. only 1.3.2
14:10:15 <planetmaker> well. There *is* no 1.3.3. So why should it be there?
14:10:40 <djgummikuh> because it's coming up and ppl might want to adapt their scripts pre-release?
14:10:53 <djgummikuh> anyways :-( I need this setBalance functions from 1.4
14:11:09 <djgummikuh> but I don't want to wait another year or whatever it takes for openttd to reach 1.4 :-/
14:11:16 <planetmaker> wait for 1.4.0-beta1... :-)
14:11:38 <planetmaker> and looking at the past release cycles that's not too far off ;-)
14:12:16 <djgummikuh> Is there any tutorial for NoGo <-> Admin Port interaction or for NoGo programming in general?
14:12:38 <Xaroth|Work> nogo <-> admin port interaction is just 2 small things, sending and receiving
14:12:40 <planetmaker> Not that I know of. They can communicate via JSON
14:12:41 <Xaroth|Work> both sides need to be aware
14:13:18 <djgummikuh> ok but I generously would describe my experience with NoGo as Level "0"
14:13:45 <djgummikuh> or actually, for 0-based countings, -1
14:15:17 <planetmaker> djgummikuh, if you have experience with AI writing: most things work identical
14:16:17 <djgummikuh> well my experience with writing ANYTHING (but a company name) for OpenTTD is about the same level
14:16:38 <djgummikuh> I am developer though so I'd expect to catch on quite quick but I best learn with tutorials or examples to take from
14:17:40 <planetmaker> there's a decent number of examples around. After all, every instance of a script is an example, it#s a script language
14:18:09 <planetmaker> and I've seen so far only gpl-licensed scripts, so you'll not have trouble to actually learn from them and even build on them
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14:42:27 <djgummikuh> planetmaker: woah can you please point me to an actual script there? I found some AIs but some of these Projects are C++?
14:43:59 <djgummikuh> hmm... any chance that I can convince somene to write a game script for me? ;D
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14:45:07 <planetmaker> djgummikuh, I don't say that every project there is a GS or AI. Those GS projects tend to start with "gs" and the ai projects with "ai"
14:45:30 <planetmaker> and no, both must be written in squirrel; other languages simply don't work for GS or AI
14:46:17 <djgummikuh> mmh ok. I expected all .nut files to be squrirel but there are Mode: C++ logs in it and the syntax clearly looks like C++ as well (Class::function etc)
14:46:30 <djgummikuh> Mode: C++ comments, not logs, sorry
14:47:13 <Xaroth|Work> the C comment style is used in more than just C :)
14:49:05 <djgummikuh> that's what I mean: /* -*- Mode: C++; tab-width: 6 -*- */
14:49:42 <peter1138> That's a editor instruction, not code.
14:49:53 <djgummikuh> ah ok. nevermind then :)
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16:42:01 <Vinnie_nl> Hello guys, is it me or does the login at flyspray take a long time to proces?
16:42:15 <Vinnie_nl> trying to get a bug report added
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16:52:00 <LordAro> Vinnie_nl: not usually, iirc
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17:36:19 <Eddi|zuHause> oooh, widelands actually got ships now
17:43:45 <zydeco> I patched the PNG heightmap export/import so it preserves rivers
17:43:54 <zydeco> but it only imports rivers if it has a certain text chunk
17:44:45 <zydeco> maybe it should check the palette instead, and it would be more useful
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17:49:48 <Japa> zydeco, why not just always assume a river if the red and green channels are zero?
17:50:49 <zydeco> right now I'm using the palette index
17:50:59 <zydeco> so the low 4 bits are height, and the 5th is river
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17:52:31 <Japa> That works for palleted images, I guess. I was thinking about RGB images.
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17:55:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Japa: the general idea was to have several image files and a description file that selects which file means which. they can be put into directories/tar-files to keep them together
17:56:13 <Eddi|zuHause> so you have one image that shows the height, one image that shows the rivers, one image that shows the roads, etc.
17:58:09 <Eddi|zuHause> where "description file" means some sort of .ini format, like .obg/.obm etc.
17:58:43 <Eddi|zuHause> pretty much all code for that is there, just has to be assembled :p
17:59:00 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a wiki page somewhere
18:00:01 <Alberth> assuming that's the topic :)
18:00:37 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but Japa_ probably missed my lines :p
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19:26:22 <Superuser> This is the final evolution of the tycoon genre:
19:27:44 <TinoDidriksen> Hmm, that depends. Has anyone done a Porn Tycoon? If not, that is clearly missing before we can consider the genre closed.
19:28:25 <Superuser> Utilitarian tycoon?
19:28:47 <TinoDidriksen> Concentration Camp Tycoon? We have that Prison..something management game.
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19:35:09 <Alberth> what about a tycoon game about making tycoon games?
19:36:19 <frosch123> game dev tycoon or so
19:47:22 <peter1138> That's the one where if you pirate it, you can't win...
19:50:36 <__ln__> what about a tycoon game about making free software?
19:55:21 <__ln__> Red Hat would disagree, but yeah, I was more like thinking about a Stallman simulation.
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20:29:53 <V453000> hm for some reason multiple people already told me that trunk under windoze sez virus danger, unsafe, etc bullcrap ... got any clues on that? :D
20:30:08 <V453000> I mean I always knew openttd isnt safe for your brain but for your pc its like a cure? :P
20:31:29 <frosch123> the nsa certificate expired
20:31:42 <frosch123> so it warns that the transmission in insecure
20:34:06 <glx> V453000: they all use the same antivirus ?
20:34:12 <frosch123> well, if i google for "openttd" and "virus" i certainly end up a some malware sites
20:35:21 <frosch123> wow, this site is awesome
20:36:16 <frosch123> it's a template text which apparently can insert any application name (in this case "openttd.exe")
20:36:26 <frosch123> and warn you about it, and tell you to download something to fix it :p
20:36:54 <frosch123> "openttd.exe is a legitimate windows process used by many applications of Windows operating systems. So it is not a problem in most cases if you see several even copies of this process running in your background because they plays a core role for the connected programs. In most case, openttd.exe process is safe in supporting the programs which require this process/file in order to function correctly. However this process may have more
20:36:56 <frosch123> than one variants and one of them may be spyware or malware. To be sure we suggest that you scan your system for openttd.exe errors."
20:37:17 <frosch123> and so on, more than 5 screen pages
20:37:26 <Xaroth|Work> actually quite good spelling for crapware
20:37:28 <frosch123> with various screenshots and even a video
20:37:36 <frosch123> the application name is blurred out on those though
20:43:02 <glx> frosch123: I guess their tool has the MS certified logo :)
20:59:27 <Xaroth|Work> 1990 called, they want their software back.
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21:07:02 <Kjetil> Well.. The 90's can sodd off. This is our transport simulator
21:20:19 <Taede> could always class it as a cheat
21:20:30 <Taede> just means you cant use it in mp
21:20:41 <planetmaker> it actually technically doesn't work
21:20:47 <planetmaker> the game state is changed
21:21:32 <Taede> trains dont like it when rails suddenly dissappear from beneath them
21:21:34 <planetmaker> openttd doesn't remember what was done either
21:22:38 <planetmaker> draw 2000 sprites
21:22:43 <planetmaker> and then also for all newgrfs
21:22:58 <planetmaker> not impossible. But ... a stretch
21:23:12 <alluke> multirail bridges would be nice
21:23:35 <andythenorth> I didn't understand the double tracked bridges request
21:23:36 <alluke> but they should recognize that theres another bridge next to them and then load matching sprites
21:23:49 <andythenorth> so a visual thing?
21:25:12 <planetmaker> Taede, with undo you also have fun when terraforming, e.g. when a single click tears down a whole piece of a mountain or floods some plains as you killed a dike
21:25:56 <andythenorth> undo is for MS word
21:26:04 <planetmaker> also building affects your standing with local authority, tree growth, ...
21:26:12 <planetmaker> in single player your have autosaves :-)
21:26:13 <andythenorth> it's fricking insane
21:26:23 <andythenorth> we'd have to diff state for every single state change
21:26:32 <andythenorth> even diffing it, the memory usage would be bonkers
21:29:44 <planetmaker> thus the culprit basically is: "what do you mean with 'undo'?"
21:30:06 <planetmaker> and then a full rewind is not feasible. And just un-building stuff would cause more harm than gain
21:30:59 <planetmaker> maybe not harm. But sadness and annoyance
21:31:25 <planetmaker> though it might harm my sanity :-P
21:32:08 <planetmaker> "no, it's undo, not rewind. It doesn't reverse the effects of the action, just the action. Like if you stab s/o, pulling out the knife won't fix it"
21:32:24 <andythenorth> rewind would be plausible, if you had enough memory, or dumped to disk
21:32:53 <andythenorth> and there were no unexpected engineering changes
21:32:55 <planetmaker> but that's basically what autosaves are for
21:33:14 <planetmaker> though transferring the whole game to a new memory buffer also takes time. you notice it
21:33:25 <andythenorth> autosave every 1s? :P
21:34:01 <planetmaker> every 2 minutes is fastest IIRC
21:34:33 <andythenorth> so the game is a very complicated dynamic simulation containing many many state machines *and* randomised stuff
21:34:41 <andythenorth> whereas MS word, only I make changes :P
21:34:49 <andythenorth> so state is only changed by my actions
21:35:06 <planetmaker> basically that's what we use on our main server ;-) Every minute actually
21:35:10 <andythenorth> I guess this stuff is non-obvious unless you've been around code for a year or two
21:35:25 <planetmaker> it's totally not obvious, indeed
21:35:40 <planetmaker> you click, something happens. Same in MS word
21:36:27 <planetmaker> actually... rewind in steps of one minute is not *that* bad, is it?
21:36:33 <glx> but in MS word there are only user actions
21:36:52 <planetmaker> yes, glx *we* know that slight but important difference
21:37:05 <planetmaker> but it's not obvious
21:37:06 <andythenorth> well you might have an MS word macro-virus :P
21:37:09 <andythenorth> changing your doc
21:37:17 <andythenorth> or some kind of collaborative editing crap
21:37:25 <andythenorth> Word In The Cloud
21:37:36 <andythenorth> I hate using undo in Google docs :P
21:37:43 <planetmaker> I wonder whether one could abuse the autosaves to allow for in-game rollback. Nice interface and probably half of these questions would not occor
21:38:02 <andythenorth> planetmaker: does gimp have a history palette?
21:38:19 <glx> in word I remember you couldn't edit a document open by someone else
21:38:20 <andythenorth> it's last 32 or so actions, click the one you want
21:38:24 <planetmaker> it does have history. What's a history palette? selective undo of past steps?
21:38:36 <andythenorth> I can never figure out how selective it is :P
21:38:57 <andythenorth> but yeah, simple version is just rollback to a recent version, UI is a simple list
21:39:08 <glx> usually when I undo it's the latest changes
21:40:09 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes it seems to have that. I never noticed or used it though. It's called 'journal'
21:40:24 <andythenorth> yeah journal is fitting
21:40:40 <andythenorth> aggressive autosave = journal
21:40:49 <andythenorth> go backwards in the journal at your own risk
21:41:08 <glx> yeah like restauration points
21:41:53 <andythenorth> see, even silly suggestions sometimes produce solutions, eh?
21:42:30 <glx> for openttd autosaves should be enough ;)
21:42:48 <planetmaker> it's not exactly silly. Just ignorant. And that's not something to call him stupid for
21:43:07 <andythenorth> yeah, point well made
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