IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-11-11
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00:11:51 <glx> ok he mixes everything and peek what matches his point
00:14:05 <krinn> he keep saying OOP this OOP that, it appears he doesn't know python & js can do OOP too ^^
00:14:40 <glx> yeah OOP is like XML (the solution for everything)
00:15:10 <Eddi|zuHause> then, why does CETS contain almost no OOP?
00:15:12 <krinn> and portage (python) is not well know for been in python, but well know to works pretty good
00:16:50 <glx> VB is C# with a weird syntax now
00:19:40 <krinn> in fact he doesn't like JS because he gets bore accessing DOM :D
00:25:03 <krinn> i didn't learn programming at school so i'm not sure about that, but from pascal experience, a procedure is just a function that return nothing, is he really arguing about that ?
00:29:42 * Supercheese isn't even sure what object-oriented programming really is
00:38:11 <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: no, he's mixing up stuff and getting confused that other people use the terms differently than he intended
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13:47:08 <Nekomaster> Woah, where did all you people come from?
13:47:28 <Nekomaster> Last time I was on the IRC there was very few people
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13:49:14 <Nekomaster> So anyone alive/awake?
13:50:06 <V453000> I think it is evil Eddi
13:50:47 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the only error of that kind
13:51:07 <V453000> my elaborate diagnosis clearly points at evil matter
13:51:08 <Eddi|zuHause> and it was fine yesterday
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13:51:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and i didn't touch that part at all
13:51:56 <Nekomaster> You know, I wonder why we continue to make ourselves suffer with coding in NFO/NML when we could just have text files with much simpler layouts/coding
13:52:42 <Nekomaster> Rather then use complicated C++ like coding and commands, why not just have text files with the vehicle stats and code for the sprites and offsets?
13:54:40 <Nekomaster> the link keeps loading
13:55:06 <Eddi|zuHause> that's all there is, except for the images
13:55:11 <juzza1> Nekomaster: do a lot more than just stats + graphics, i dont really understand what you are trying to say
13:55:57 <Nekomaster> What I ment is, have the stats like Power, speed, weight, traction, etc, plus any switches like "Articulated" or "Dual headed", in plane and simple english
13:56:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Nekomaster: that's EXACTLY what i do in that link
13:58:24 <Nekomaster> Name : "EMD F-Unit" // Introduction : 1942 // Life : 30 // Decay : 20 // Weight : 120 // Speed : 104 // Sprite : EMD_F_Unit.png
13:58:40 <Nekomaster> something like that, but perhaps each a seperate line
13:59:16 <juzza1> thats how you input stats in NML
13:59:18 <Nekomaster> And in case I havent made my self clear, I'm talking about making it easier to add vehicles to OpenTTD
13:59:37 <Nekomaster> Nu-uh, I've looked at NML, its much more complicated then what I just posted
13:59:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Nekomaster: it won't get any easier than that table above
13:59:59 <Nekomaster> I wasn't talking about tracking tables
14:00:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Nekomaster: it's not a "tracking table", it's the whole set. just press a button (or two) and it creates a newgrf
14:01:13 <juzza1> never mind the ugly aligment
14:01:36 <Nekomaster> I tried NML and I still don't understand it after looking at those NML tutorials
14:01:57 <V453000> trying to code it helps (:
14:02:03 <V453000> the code is quite trivial tbh
14:02:04 <Nekomaster> when I took programing in high school that was more understandable then NML setup
14:02:17 <V453000> sounds seriously strange
14:02:30 <Nekomaster> although NML is much less complicated then NFO, I still can't wrap my head around it
14:02:35 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i think nforenum has an issue with sprite 65536
14:02:46 <Nekomaster> Visual Basic and C++ was much easier then NML
14:04:31 <juzza1> maybe it would be more helpful if you tried to go through each step in the tutorial, and then ask if you dont understand something particular
14:04:46 <blathijs> Isn't the reason that NML is complicated that it has to be compile to newgrf/nfo, which is just a fairly limited format compared to regular programming languages / machine code?
14:05:25 <Nekomaster> but couldn't we just make a compiler that takes a plain english set up and translate it to GRF format for openttd/ttdp
14:05:57 <juzza1> NML is that, it doesn't get any easier if you want to use all of the newgrf features
14:06:09 <Nekomaster> I have an example of a mod file from a content pack I'm making for flans mod for Minecraft
14:06:45 <Nekomaster> Why can't we have something like this instead of complex NML coding where everything has to be a certain way with funky commands and such
14:07:08 <V453000> idk how that is a funky command
14:07:24 <Nekomaster> I dunno how to explain it any better
14:07:46 <Nekomaster> last I looked at NML it looked more like C++ programming code
14:07:46 <V453000> also perhaps sometimes it could be useful to define the speed by some conditon like a switch thingy
14:08:05 <V453000> I dont think wiriting NML is not even coding
14:08:12 <V453000> just filling train values really
14:08:19 <Nekomaster> I still dont understand it
14:08:33 <Nekomaster> like I said I looked at the tutorials they have for NML
14:08:54 <V453000> like I said, tutorials wont solve anything you have to try to code the thing
14:09:12 <juzza1> yeah if you just read it and don't write any code, you won't learn a thing
14:09:28 <Nekomaster> I did try to code, I tookt he example road vehicle thing and tried to change the name and give it a different sprite and it didn't work
14:09:42 <V453000> I dont get how could you do that wrongly
14:09:49 <Nekomaster> Only thing I've managed in NML is the NML-Categories system that I made
14:09:54 <V453000> but well, resigning probably isnt very constructiev either :)
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14:11:05 <Nekomaster> I don't want to resign though, with the way OzTrains has coded the canadian trainset, I'm getting kinda irritated that he's made it so restrictive
14:11:55 <V453000> who cares about simuscape trash :)
14:12:24 <V453000> but yeah getting pissed off at other graphics is very good in order to get yourself to code something :D
14:12:29 <V453000> how do you think NUTS started
14:12:45 <Nekomaster> I'm looking at the NML for nuts and nothing makes sense to me
14:12:58 <Nekomaster> this is why I hate NML just as much as I do NFO
14:13:10 <V453000> well nothing will make sense automatically obviously
14:13:14 <juzza1> it's all in one file so you can't understand it quickly
14:13:32 <V453000> idk I have a lot more problems with understanding multi-file than one file if I am a starter
14:14:21 <V453000> all you do for e.g. a train: 1: define sprites, 2. load sprites in the item thingy - and define stats at item thingy
14:14:35 <blathijs> Nekomaster: Can you point out something specific that does not make sense to you?
14:14:42 <V453000> extra things like spritegroup for loading stages, specific switch for graphics, etc
14:14:51 <Nekomaster> the use of strings to define commands for certain things
14:15:13 <blathijs> Nekomaster: Looking at the NML format, it looks pretty much like it's mostly property: value pairs, so I guess that part is clear?
14:15:34 <Nekomaster> I can see that but I can't clearly see where vehicles are and other parts of code are
14:16:17 <blathijs> (disclaimer, I never worked with NML, so I'm just trying to get the problem defined more clearly, I probably can't solve it :-p)
14:16:27 <Nekomaster> *sigh* why can't I ever understand anything complex...
14:16:50 <V453000> all I can say for now is that I might write a starter guide to newGRF creation during christmas holidays
14:17:16 <Nekomaster> It would be nice to have a simple step by step guide that shows how to make a couple vehicles rather then just one
14:17:41 <V453000> couple vehicles = copypaste one?
14:17:43 <Nekomaster> thats another problem with the tutorials, they only tell you how to do one, and not multiple vehicles
14:18:20 <Nekomaster> Last time I checked you need more code for mutliple vehicles then just a single vehicle
14:19:00 <V453000> like how about to take code of one vehicle and copypaste it
14:19:11 <Nekomaster> i didn't mean like that
14:19:21 <V453000> obviously you dont need to copypaste e.g. sprite templates but yeah
14:19:40 <V453000> well you might not have meant it that way but that is pretty much how you do it :D
14:19:45 <Nekomaster> this doesnt help that I'm trying to quit smoking and have anger problems
14:20:40 <V453000> I dont get how do you get an anger problem when trying to ctrl+c ctrl+v
14:20:45 <Nekomaster> and i dunno what it is but I can't wrap my head around complex things till someone breaks it down
14:20:55 <V453000> this isnt a complex thing
14:21:02 <Nekomaster> the copypasta isn't the problem, its the coding part
14:21:17 <V453000> well, having coded one vehicle successfully means you can do multiple
14:21:24 <V453000> so I dont understand how is multiple vehicles the problem
14:21:44 <Nekomaster> Where can I get a gun?
14:22:28 <V453000> draw a gun then code it, use it later
14:22:57 <Nekomaster> I can do that for minecraft, at least making a content pack for Flan's mod is MUCH MUCH easier then coding NML
14:23:30 <V453000> well then perhaps minecraft has less properties and stuf than openttd
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14:24:32 <Nekomaster> yes, but what I'm getting at is with the simpiler system I've been using to make content for Flans Mod, I dont get why we can't do something like what I posted, but with OpenTTD values and such
14:25:24 <Nekomaster> I don't know C++ so how can I make a program that translates plain english to GRF files?
14:25:53 <V453000> or idk whatever do you need for that
14:25:55 <Nekomaster> Not so easy when you have a brain that shuts down looking at anything big and complex
14:26:05 <V453000> perhaps start from the smaller things
14:26:26 <Nekomaster> Big mess > shutdown, NML coding > shutdown, Lots of sprite work to do > shutdown
14:26:53 <Nekomaster> Thats why I'm saying we need a step-by-step tutorial on how to code a NML vehicle set
14:27:49 <V453000> look, I managed to code vehicles, that means anybody can do it
14:27:50 <Nekomaster> I can't continue making my Generic Australian Rail Set, make my own North American Train Set, or continue the North American Road Vehicle set with GRF Maker, and currently NML just goes over my head
14:28:13 <blathijs> Nekomaster: I still don't really understand what is the fundamental difference between NML and the minecraft stuff you posted, other than that you apparently don't understand parts of NML and somehow didn't manage to get two vehicles in NML (even though people here seem to agree that just copy-pasting the same code once more, perhaps changing some id values, should work)
14:28:29 <V453000> I will send you a short example ofa vehicle with comments if you are around during some evening and remind me about it
14:28:38 <blathijs> Nekomaster: In essence, both seem to be property+value lists
14:28:40 <V453000> european evenings that is
14:28:47 <V453000> but yeah as blathijs sez
14:28:48 <Nekomaster> thats another problem, nobody ever comments the NML code in the tutorials
14:29:03 <blathijs> Nekomaster: It seems that the MC stuff uses multiple files (I think), where an NML file uses multiple blocks, but that's just a detail
14:29:04 <Nekomaster> so I don't understand what commands\values do
14:29:18 <blathijs> Nekomaster: You do know there is a reference for all properties?
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14:30:10 <blathijs> juzza1: Yeah, the comments aren't too bad either there
14:30:41 <Nekomaster> Yeah thats the page I went to to learn NML
14:31:01 <Nekomaster> I spent a day on that and only figured out enough to make that NML-Category system I made
14:31:12 <Nekomaster> which is probably buried in the forums now
14:53:18 <Nekomaster> btw, how are offsets handled? Do they define the position of a sprite and the center/one of the corners or something like that?
14:55:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the anchor point is the back (hidden) corner of the bounding box
14:56:16 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have newgrf developer tools enabled, press ctrl+b to see the bounding box
14:57:33 <Nekomaster> ungh.... and now my motivation to learn NML is dead because I just remembered how much work goes into the offsets and sprite positions and all that stuff
14:57:43 <Nekomaster> *smashes head off desk repeatedly*
14:58:21 <Nekomaster> I'd rather be doing pixel art and have a reliable coder then have to code everything my self as well
14:58:49 <Nekomaster> what is there to enjoy?
14:59:00 <V453000> why do it if you dont enjoy it
14:59:14 <V453000> ps, once you get a template to work you can use it allll the time
14:59:15 <Nekomaster> I enjoy pixel art, I don't enjoy coding
14:59:26 <V453000> soo there isnt that much terrible offset stuff
14:59:38 <V453000> idk, I honestly dont understand how can someone only draw e.g. vehicles
14:59:56 <V453000> it just fits together, I dont want to rely on anyone else to make it work
15:00:04 <frosch123> "I have a 100/10Mbit connection (yeah, only 10Mbit up). Could this be sufficient for a 100-150 player server?" <- what game is he taking about?
15:00:26 <Nekomaster> it must be nice being rich or living in europe
15:01:13 <V453000> quite ugly tbh, not much contrast
15:01:40 <Nekomaster> I don't know how to apply more contrast without things being too bright
15:01:57 <V453000> I always use all 8 shades of colours
15:02:03 <V453000> otherwise you just arent using the palette fully
15:02:11 <V453000> -> less contrast, dull looking stuff
15:02:26 <Nekomaster> I dont even know why I try sometimes
15:02:42 <V453000> presumably because you want to reach some result
15:02:47 <V453000> which probably wont happen by giving up :P
15:03:03 <V453000> I redrew every sprite for nuts at least once to improve it, for comparison
15:03:10 <Nekomaster> I give it my best and people are always better to the point I dont even know why i try
15:03:13 <V453000> it just takes effort, just like most other constructive things do
15:03:30 <Nekomaster> also, right now... I havent sprited in years
15:03:41 <V453000> that doesnt sound like much effort
15:03:55 <V453000> I draw sprites almost every day
15:03:55 <Nekomaster> ive gotten rusty and ive lost all motivation to do spriting yet I want to
15:04:07 <Nekomaster> I use to draw sprites when I was in class during high school
15:04:15 <Nekomaster> some of my best work was during class
15:04:38 <Nekomaster> I hate how everything feels so blah and boring now.... wtf is wrong with me
15:05:33 <V453000> I am afraid I cant help you with that
15:05:43 <Nekomaster> no one seems to be able to help me with that
15:05:44 <V453000> I can give you hints what to improve so you could build on that :) but that is about it
15:05:55 <Nekomaster> it would seem im going to live the rest of my life bored
15:06:07 <Nekomaster> so bored and unmotivated i'd rather die
15:07:22 <Nekomaster> I do not enjoy being bored
15:07:30 <V453000> then go do something else lol :D
15:08:06 <Nekomaster> everything is boring, nothing has that draw that some things use to have
15:08:27 <V453000> beer and tits never gets old
15:08:35 <Nekomaster> I use to be crazy about openttd and simcity and fallout 3, but now all that is boring
15:09:00 <Nekomaster> I'm broke and I live in canada, strip clubs are almost non-existant around where i live
15:09:14 <V453000> I didnt say strip clubs ...
15:09:48 <V453000> I believe it will be easy to get a pair of boobs with your expression of enjoyment about everything
15:09:49 <Nekomaster> well you said tits so I assumed you ment a strip-club
15:10:06 <Nekomaster> ..................
15:10:28 <planetmaker> strip club comes from stripes, yes? Like http://media.auvito.de/images/cache/e4/0a/36/e40a36430cdbc15d564aa4e71571ce78.jpg?http%3A%2F%2Fi21.ebayimg.com%2F07%2Fi%2F000%2F9e%2F2a%2Fdad6_1_bo.JPG,400,400,,,,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,-1,0,0,0 ?
15:10:32 <V453000> all im saying is man the fuck up and go do something you like :)
15:10:33 <Nekomaster> even if I tried getting a girl right now I think I'd bore them to death
15:10:57 <Nekomaster> Theres many things I like, everything has lost its luster
15:11:01 <V453000> pm that looks dangerous :D
15:11:31 <Nekomaster> I dont even know what happened, after about a year of being out of school lif got boring
15:11:31 <V453000> We probably wont be able to help you with that Nekomaster sooo yeah
15:11:49 <Nekomaster> i guess i should just shut up then...
15:12:02 <V453000> grab a beer, start the cheer
15:12:25 <Nekomaster> I wish I could have some beer or a joint.... but I'm so broke that we're short on rent this month by 27 dollars
15:12:49 <Nekomaster> and its not like theres much work around here for a 21 year old without experience
15:13:30 <Nekomaster> Infact when I had a job for a short while earlier this year... that was more fun then coming home and sitting on my computer
15:14:44 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: congratulations?!?
15:15:19 <Nekomaster> And then public transport had to ruin it for me
15:15:45 <NGC3982> While having the worst rating possible in a given town, does it -ever- help to bulldoze areas and re-plant trees?
15:15:52 <Nekomaster> being ill for a few days and then the busses a few times where late on the weekends when I needed to be at work, so I'd be 2 hours late
15:15:55 <NGC3982> Or does that simply remove and add the same rating again?
15:16:10 <Nekomaster> I typically bulldoze and replant
15:16:22 <NGC3982> I can't seem to make it work.
15:16:26 <Nekomaster> Towns can only hate you so much till you reach the lower limit
15:16:35 <Nekomaster> You need to bulldoze LOTS of trees
15:16:36 <V453000> you cant raise authority if there was crash or bribe
15:16:43 <V453000> other cases it should work
15:16:59 <NGC3982> Oh, darn. I bribe'd them some time ago.
15:17:10 <V453000> unsuccessful bribe that was
15:17:11 <NGC3982> The bribe was successfull, though.
15:17:12 <V453000> if you get punished basically
15:17:41 <V453000> just kill a lot of trees and replant, should do it
15:18:07 <V453000> if in singleplayer, you could enable magic dozer not to lose authority points
15:18:18 <Nekomaster> Sometimes I wish I could murder the council of towns when I've done everything to get them to like me, and yet they wont let me remove a building or peice of road I need to move to build a station or my network
15:18:52 <Nekomaster> I use cheats but lately I'm trying to do things the good ol fasion way by playing without cheats
15:20:04 <Nekomaster> BTW, does anyone have an old version of the Canadian town names grf? the new version doesnt like being added with other grfs unless they're canadian
15:20:08 <Pinkbeast> Nekomaster: I tend to start operations in every town with a tram line, which builds up a good reserve of rating for when I need it.
15:20:44 <Pinkbeast> ... and also means, no matter how bad things get, I'm not in the situation where my rating's so bad I can't build stations, and yet I need stations to recover rating.
15:21:21 <NGC3982> V453000: It did work. Although, "a lot of trees" was an understatement.
15:22:49 <krinn> NGC3982, for my AI, tests show you get the best by removing all trees (get hate at max), then bribe
15:22:55 <Nekomaster> sometimes I wish there was a cheat that let you nuke towns, litterally, like wipe out large swaths of land and put a hole in the ground at the same time (rather then just demolish an area by hand and then dig a hole)
15:22:56 <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: congratulations?!? <-- for reaching 64k sprites? yes. thanks :p
15:23:24 <Nekomaster> 64,000 sprites? WTF?
15:23:26 <krinn> as a success bribe put you back in love, but a bad to a lower hate rating
15:23:38 <Nekomaster> save before you bribe if you can
15:23:47 <Pinkbeast> Nekomaster: I thought you weren't cheating?
15:24:08 <krinn> It's in the wiki -> Unsuccessful bribe n/a Set to -50.
15:24:22 <krinn> so remove all trees, goes to -1000 : bad bribe upto -50
15:24:25 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: it's not quite liking to compile at all for me though
15:24:27 <krinn> and you need few trees then
15:24:45 <Pinkbeast> krinn: Cor, that's a bit gamey.
15:25:10 <krinn> that's the rule : but you'll have to put money in bribe anyway
15:25:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i haven't pushed my latest changes yet. but the version on devzone did compile properly
15:25:23 <V453000> Nekomaster: that is the amoutn of sprites you get with a lot of effort :)))
15:25:36 <krinn> or going from -1000 to -200 with only trees, would create the amazon
15:25:53 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: it ain't for me
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15:26:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: you need eddi-nml
15:26:48 <Eddi|zuHause> because $someone was against including actionC support
15:27:17 <Rubidium> I'm currently hitting a gcc misfeature
15:27:43 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, the standard header thingie
15:28:41 <Eddi|zuHause> try editing scripts/Makefile.in and replace the .onml line with this: $(_V) $(CC) -I. -I./src/ -D REPO_REVISION=$(REPO_REVISION) -C -E -nostdinc -x c-header -o $@ $<
15:30:03 <Rubidium> are the comments used in later steps?
15:30:29 <Rubidium> let me guess... they are
15:30:47 <Eddi|zuHause> they are needed for "partial compilation"
15:31:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i could try to make it detect whether eddi-nml is installed and output a version without that. but not today
15:31:40 <Eddi|zuHause> but chances are it will blow up with OOM then
15:32:18 <Nekomaster> I kinda feel like making some sprites, but I know once i open up GIMP ill just close it after 5 seconds
15:32:28 <Nekomaster> The want is high but the motivation is low
15:33:59 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: how is push support coming along?
15:35:47 * peter1138 pushes Eddi|zuHause
15:37:28 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: what countries are supposed to be covered by that set?
15:37:49 <Rubidium> it looks kinda "Germany-ish only"
15:37:58 <Nekomaster> Last I remember a MP40 is around the size of a F59PH
15:38:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: we temporarily removed the austrian and swiss vehicles to get it to compile, but i'll restore those now that partial compilation is workable
15:38:46 <Nekomaster> Then again, Eddi, you work with a larger scale right?
15:39:28 <Eddi|zuHause> technically, i work with a slightly smaller scale. but it's "properly" scaled length-wise
15:39:56 <Nekomaster> Ahh.... still, I don't think an MP40 is 12/8
15:39:58 <Eddi|zuHause> (it's not entirely possible)
15:40:28 <Eddi|zuHause> in my scale, 12/8 would be 24m. most engines are shorter than that, most modern wagons longer
15:40:28 <Nekomaster> going with NARS scale 12/8 would probably be a Mallet/Santa Fe
15:40:56 <Rubidium> the devzone head doesn't trigger the nforenum bug though
15:41:30 <Nekomaster> Im actually kinda confused about TTD's messed up scaling. Which is unrealistically bigger? The vehicles or the buildings?
15:41:48 <Rubidium> could you attach the compressed nfo?
15:41:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i can give you the current NFO, and if necessary the graphics.
15:44:08 <Rubidium> the NFO would definitely be needed, don't think the graphics are needed though
15:44:22 <Rubidium> and the NFO is only half a MB or so (when compressed)
15:44:45 <Eddi|zuHause> 448816 11. Nov 15:41 cets.nfo.xz
15:45:20 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, as said, I'm happy to offer you ssh push access for now
15:45:34 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: maybe tomorrow
15:46:02 <Nekomaster> Hmm.... if I did a Canadian/North American train set, which scale would be more appropriate? TTD scale or something larger like the scale used in xUSSR or CETS
15:46:07 <planetmaker> just send me the public key of yours by whatever means and I'll add it
15:46:09 <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, why did it upload the file twice?
15:46:27 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'll need someone to walk me through creating one
15:46:40 <planetmaker> you surprise me, Eddi|zuHause :-)
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15:46:55 <Nekomaster> I do a Canadian/North American train set, which scale would be more appropriate? TTD scale or something larger like the scale used in xUSSR or CETS
15:47:15 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: practical appliances are always a mystery to me :)
15:48:03 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: like setting up a compile environment and stuff :)
15:49:21 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, windows or linux?
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15:50:37 <NekoMaster> Anyone? Any advice on scale?
15:50:50 <planetmaker> NekoMaster, whatever suits *you*
15:51:01 <planetmaker> it's the artistic license any artist has
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15:51:14 <NekoMaster> I'm use to TTD scale but I kinda like the look of CETS/xUSSR scale
15:51:41 <NekoMaster> Plus north american trains are typically bigger then most european trains except for Russian/Eastern Bloc stuff
15:55:05 <NekoMaster> You know, now that I look at it, vehicles like trains look smaller then they should be compared to the buildings and trees
15:55:10 <Pinkbeast> NekoMaster: I think the thing to ask is, which existing sets might yours combine nicely with?
15:55:54 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: linux
15:55:57 <Pinkbeast> For example, I often want a smattering of 2cc vehicles in UKRS2 games, so I prefer they are not in wildly disproportionate scales
15:56:00 <NekoMaster> Well part of this is why I'm asking if I should go with a larger scale. Larger scale = more detail\different but might not bode well with other sets
15:56:11 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, then just run ssh-keygen. And give us ~/.ssh/id_rsa.pub
15:56:33 <Pinkbeast> NekoMaster: You're stuck with the existing track gauge; I wouldn't make a huge change.
15:56:58 <planetmaker> NekoMaster, add 'more details' to the sprites for higher zoom levels
15:57:12 <planetmaker> i.e. provide special sprites for 2x and 4x zoom.
15:57:21 <planetmaker> you can put *a lot* of detail into those
15:57:39 <NekoMaster> dont start talking about that... you'll make me think about more work and kill my mojo XD
15:57:52 <NekoMaster> I just want to do some default zoom stuff
15:58:23 <NekoMaster> So could the scale that NARS uses be acceptable for North American rail vehicles?
15:58:50 <NekoMaster> because like I said, TTD\NARS scale kinda looks a little smaller then a train should be
16:02:47 <adf89> i see that mip-mapping is discussed
16:03:10 <NekoMaster> wtf is mip mapping anyways?
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16:03:37 <adf89> separate sprites for differnt zoom levels
16:03:44 <Nekomaster> ARGH! I hate the back button on my mouse sometimes
16:03:58 <adf89> i know they are available for 32bpp
16:04:02 <Nekomaster> Though I'm currently not in the mood to draw multiple zoom levels
16:04:03 <planetmaker> adf89, yes... iirc there's a nearly complete implementation in icosahedron
16:04:25 <Nekomaster> I just want to draw some default zoom stuff, but I'm still undecided with the scale
16:04:34 <planetmaker> adf89, and no, bit depth is totally irrelevant and they're not exactly available there, too
16:04:48 <planetmaker> zooming for those need be handled the same for those like for any other sprite
16:05:08 <adf89> yes, i know some code details
16:05:14 <planetmaker> (and should - least duplication principle :-) )
16:05:49 <planetmaker> sprites need not be done. But they do exist for 1x, 1.5x and 2x OpenGFX
16:07:24 <adf89> will there be "mipmapping" in 8bpp ?
16:07:40 <Nekomaster> I believe thats done in 8bpp for 8bpp graphics
16:08:03 <planetmaker> adf89, what is 'mipmapping'? you mean the automatic scaling?
16:08:22 <peter1138> adf89, yes, you can provide different zoom levels for 8bpp sprites.
16:08:23 <adf89> to provide differnt sprites (via GRF)
16:08:28 <adf89> for differnt zoom levels
16:08:42 <planetmaker> there's no difference in bit depths
16:08:49 <adf89> I was browsing lates trunk code
16:08:53 <planetmaker> except that 8bpp 1x zoom is the only required sprite type
16:09:06 <planetmaker> all other bit depths and zoom levels are treated equally
16:09:07 <peter1138> Rather, different bit depths are not treated differently.
16:10:09 * peter1138 still ponders a decent accelerated renderer.
16:11:21 <peter1138> Allows for efficient sparse updating.
16:11:46 <peter1138> And possibly compositing for windows, though that would be quite some work.
16:15:05 <Nekomaster> So has anyone seen the scale\size of the vehicles in CETs or the xUSSR set?
16:18:08 <Nekomaster> im going to rip my hair out debating scale! argh!
16:18:25 <peter1138> Stick to 8/8 unless it's obviously shorter.
16:19:16 <Nekomaster> but first I need sprite templates, pikka's wiki doesnt have them anymore :(
16:20:46 <Nekomaster> argh why did pikka remove the sprite templates from pikkawiki!? I need them now more then ever
16:24:07 <Xaroth|Work> first world problems right there
16:25:00 <Nekomaster> I know it says tram vehicle templates, but I'd prefer to have the shapes their for reference of how I should draw my vehicles
16:30:19 <Nekomaster> btw, is it possible to draw sprites in unpaletized 32-bpp
16:30:35 <Nekomaster> aside from CC blue and CC green
16:32:55 <Nekomaster> Though I'm going with "TTD" scale, looking at NARS cars versus CETS cars, yeah, TTD scale cars look kinda short
16:33:22 <Nekomaster> then again most people go with what, 7/8 for passenger\mail cars?
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16:48:15 <krinn> is there a /restart/reset for GS ?
16:58:02 <planetmaker> krinn, no, that's for admin port. You can try talk to your favourite admin port script though :-)
16:58:24 <planetmaker> krinn, though of course a GS can stop the game
16:58:43 <krinn> i would rather let the game keep running while the gs restart
16:59:00 <krinn> (yep like a save/restore)
16:59:02 <planetmaker> uh, you mean just to reload the script?
16:59:17 <planetmaker> like stop_ai; start_ai?
16:59:36 <planetmaker> I don't think that's feasible
16:59:38 <krinn> or more like the reload button :)
17:00:05 <planetmaker> or rather: not implemented. could be a script_developer debugging thing
17:00:32 <krinn> would be better if kept out of user eyes
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17:01:42 <krinn> but changing anything in the GS while having AIs running doesn't help as quit/restart and all AIs restart from 0
17:02:08 <krinn> would be a fine feature for debug to just let them keep going while the GS restart
17:09:32 <frosch123> reload ai also clears company property
17:09:48 <frosch123> so, either you can save/load the game and it will load the new gs
17:09:56 <frosch123> or you can restart the game with the same settings
17:10:40 <krinn> lmao and if you put your hands in the grease, will your at it, move the "AI/Game log script" option after "about openttd" : i keep taking screenshots :)
17:11:14 <krinn> frosch123, i would like the players to stay alive, and the GS "jump" into that state and start
17:11:54 <krinn> frosch123, of course the good solve is the save/load, but kinda slow
17:19:22 <frosch123> you can load the game via console
17:19:46 <frosch123> so if you load it once with console, you can just do "open console", "cursor up", "enter"
17:20:05 <krinn> there's also the save ?
17:20:20 <frosch123> there are load and save console commands
17:20:53 <krinn> ah great ! save test / load test
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18:30:00 <Wolf01> does somebody know how to code some will power?
18:33:22 <krinn> i think you can code something in xanax++
18:34:30 <Wolf01> maybe I could just ask Green Lantern
18:58:21 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25965 trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp (2013-11-11 18:58:15 UTC)
18:58:22 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5800]: the wrong vehicle would be taken in a shared order vehicle list window when the ID >= 65536, causing assertions triggering later on
18:59:23 <Rubidium> emperical evidence that "large number of vehicles" kinda implies "not using shared orders"
19:00:39 <frosch123> not the other way around?
19:01:10 <frosch123> hmm, or do you refer to it not being noticed earlier?
19:01:44 <Rubidium> yes, the not being noticed earlier
19:07:48 <Rubidium> but then, it's only a relatively new feature
19:09:56 <Rubidium> (relatively being 3+ years in trunk)
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19:46:08 <zydeco> I'm not sure if that's a detached hand
19:51:45 <planetmaker> zydeco, did you ask the other day about processing the blender stuff from zbase?
19:53:04 <krinn> lol fench TV announce : 3x more angry, they touch at the colonel ! 3x more dangerous : "He is not God, God is merciful and he is not"...
19:54:03 <glx> I know what you are watching krinn :)
19:54:20 <krinn> did you smile with the rambo announce too
19:54:59 <krinn> i was waiting for homeland
19:55:21 <krinn> hehe, i like that actor, saw him in life
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20:03:55 <Supercheese> You have progressed to the Bronze Age
20:04:14 <Supercheese> Unlocked: Swordsman, Mounted Swordsman
20:04:22 <Supercheese> oh wait, wrong game :P
20:04:40 <zydeco> you have progressed to the maglev age
20:05:17 <Supercheese> Unlocked: Stupid fast trains. Obsolete: Good-looking screenshots.
20:07:14 <planetmaker> lol, Supercheese :-)
20:07:39 <Supercheese> I dunno about anyone else, but screenshots of 100% maglev track look horrible to me
20:07:48 <planetmaker> would it be an outcry to replace maglev by what smits provides as maglev?
20:08:10 <Supercheese> same goes for monorail
20:08:16 <Supercheese> with default sprites, of course
20:08:21 <planetmaker> monorail is better
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20:12:33 <NekoMaster> Anyone want to evaluate my WIP horizon car?
20:13:00 * andythenorth needs an 'always start with $100m' cheat, for newgrf testing
20:13:28 <Supercheese> andy: Gamescript ;)
20:13:54 <andythenorth> also I have to write more switches to check grfid :(
20:14:04 <andythenorth> this was pleasingly small amount of code :P
20:14:54 <frosch123> andythenorth: alt+1 in debug build
20:18:01 <andythenorth> would we consider providing alt+1 if newgrf dev tools are enabled?
20:18:53 <planetmaker> yes, we could consider that imho
20:19:10 <planetmaker> hm... and single-player
20:19:26 <andythenorth> I don't mind using normal cheat ui
20:19:33 <andythenorth> but it's wearing out my ctrl-alt keys....
20:19:41 <planetmaker> I know what you mean
20:19:54 <planetmaker> saving two clicks. On multiple starts
20:20:02 <andythenorth> an alternative: instead of 'newgame' 'newtestgame'
20:20:09 <andythenorth> or 'newdebuggame'
20:20:25 <planetmaker> or simply allow insane amounts of start money configured
20:21:17 <Supercheese> any reference photos?
20:21:17 <andythenorth> NekoMaster: it doesn't suck, do the other angles
20:21:37 <andythenorth> NekoMaster: views for / and \ are much harder than -
20:22:00 <andythenorth> it doesn't suck, keep going
20:22:17 <Supercheese> are you using both CC and 2CC for the bi-color stripe?
20:22:30 <Supercheese> or heck, it's tri-color red white and blue
20:22:52 <frosch123> planetmaker: andythenorth: alt+1 actually bypasses the cheat stuff
20:22:56 <NekoMaster> unless I went with a larger scale I can only do bi-color
20:23:06 <NekoMaster> I wish I could do tri-color
20:23:26 <andythenorth> pixel art = compromose
20:23:28 <frosch123> however, we could make most cheats advanced settings like "allow cheating money" or "changing date", and then attach them to mousewheel action on the statusbar
20:23:48 <andythenorth> money cheat = essential for toddlers playing :)
20:23:59 <planetmaker> hm, sounds like a good idea actually, frosch123
20:24:03 <andythenorth> child #1 is not profitable
20:24:06 <NekoMaster> Money cheat = Pretend the government loaned you 20 mill
20:24:17 <andythenorth> also, we really need to fix vehicle colouring :P
20:24:27 <planetmaker> just become supercritical, too big to fail and you don't have to pay back the loan
20:24:30 <NekoMaster> I think a 1,000,000 loan limit is silly
20:24:34 <MNIM> NekoMaster: no, bailout :P
20:25:11 <NekoMaster> Nah, I pretend that the only 20 mill that I add is a government loan to get a company started because they need shit moved
20:25:23 <andythenorth> meanwhile /me looks if grfid is in scope
20:25:30 <andythenorth> someone will now tell me it's an nml var :P
20:26:20 <NekoMaster> Hmm, at least i have my 7 inch Note II as a second screen for showing referense pictures while spriting :)
20:26:31 <planetmaker> you told yourself, andythenorth ! ;-)
20:26:39 <andythenorth> hmm, but I need the grfid of iron-horse
20:26:45 <andythenorth> I probably have that somewhere :P
20:26:50 <planetmaker> you know your own, don't you?
20:26:58 <andythenorth> somewhere in this warren of code, yes
20:27:14 <planetmaker> I usually add a list of #define GRFID_XXX "blah"
20:27:26 <planetmaker> so that I can use the grfIDs later in the code easily w/o remembering any
20:28:34 <andythenorth> oops, I put it directly in a template :P
20:28:36 <andythenorth> silly andythenorth
20:28:50 <andythenorth> planetmaker: there's no known case for the makefile needing the grfid?
20:28:54 <andythenorth> before I move it to the wrong place :P
20:29:00 <NekoMaster> OMG I hate it when you goto add something to a URL and you replace the whole URL
20:29:15 <andythenorth> NekoMaster: cmd-z?
20:29:16 <planetmaker> andythenorth, there actually is one: to put it also in a scripted way into the readme
20:29:29 <andythenorth> so I could add it to repo vars
20:29:37 <andythenorth> or I could have it in python global_constants
20:29:39 <NekoMaster> I dont have a command key
20:29:50 <andythenorth> NekoMaster: ctrl-z?
20:29:54 <planetmaker> yes. it could be given the compiler via -DGRFID=$GRFID
20:29:56 <andythenorth> dunno, might just be a mac thing
20:30:20 <andythenorth> planetmaker: makefile.config?
20:30:21 <Alberth> andythenorth: lol, ctrl-z is EOF at windows :p
20:30:26 <NekoMaster> CTRL+Z does little help when you've already replaced the URL and pressed enter
20:30:29 <planetmaker> and then you could define the GRFID="blah" in Makefile.config
20:30:35 <andythenorth> Alberth: :) lulz, I iz a mac user
20:30:55 <NekoMaster> I'm allergic to apples D:
20:30:59 <planetmaker> or maybe w/o the "". Needs test :-)
20:31:20 <Alberth> NekoMaster: use Linux or *BSD instead :)
20:31:20 <andythenorth> planetmaker: testing :)
20:31:24 <NekoMaster> I prefer looking at Windows with my Androids :3
20:31:34 <NekoMaster> I use to like linux but they're going the wrong way with it
20:31:53 <NekoMaster> making it too user friendly and bogging it down with flashy interfaces and flashy code
20:32:10 <NekoMaster> even the high performance linux stuff still is sluggish compared to my windows 7 install
20:32:13 <Alberth> that's just default behavior :)
20:32:29 <planetmaker> andythenorth, CC_USER_FLAGS=-DGRFID=$GRFID also in Makefile.config
20:32:56 <Alberth> takes a bit of configuration to make the system work like you want it
20:32:56 <andythenorth> planetmaker: any particular place to add that?
20:32:58 <NekoMaster> Besides, with a more powerful computer now, I need windows 7 if I wanna play things like Call of Duty, Fallout 3, Skyrim or MOrrowind, SimCity 4 or 2000 or 3000
20:33:09 <planetmaker> below the definition of the GRFID="blah" :-)
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20:33:57 <NekoMaster> Plus I find linux still lacks proper 3D acceleration so 3D games suffer having to use software rendering
20:35:51 <LordAro> my computer is being very weird - if i have boinc running, and the pc is running medium-high load, it *randomly* sometimes shuts down, as if a loss of power
20:35:51 <LordAro> but only if boinc is running - it just survived an hour of mprime torture with no incident
20:36:39 <andythenorth> otherwise appears to work
20:36:51 <Alberth> LordAro: sounds like an overheating problem?
20:37:21 <andythenorth> LordAro: read the logs?
20:37:23 <planetmaker> andythenorth, do you need any "\" at all?
20:37:28 <LordAro> nope, temperatures are apparently normal (max of 61C)
20:37:41 <LordAro> andythenorth: as far as i can tell, there are no logs, it just turns off
20:37:50 <LordAro> unless i'm looking at the wrong logs
20:37:51 <andythenorth> planetmaker: not sure, they are copied from the definition in my nml grf block
20:37:51 <planetmaker> if yes, then... dunno escape as much as is needed :-)
20:38:14 <andythenorth> I could fix it in python, but that seems wrong :)
20:38:28 <andythenorth> the escapes are probably not wanted in the makefile I am guessing
20:38:56 <planetmaker> andythenorth, doesn't exactly matter. No problem to define it the way that it reaches code properly
20:39:16 <planetmaker> but before you go into too great lengths: currently the docs do not use GRFID, iirc
20:39:22 <planetmaker> but it would be a nice addition
20:39:28 <andythenorth> my docs are built with python anyway :)
20:39:37 <andythenorth> so this might be unnecesary? :)
20:39:50 <planetmaker> yeah, then just define it in your header
20:39:56 <planetmaker> hardcode. I actually do that, too
20:40:07 <andythenorth> it goes in global_constants.py :)
20:40:10 <planetmaker> everything else was too much hassle for me really. For very little gain
20:40:17 <andythenorth> makefile could always look in that .py file :P
20:41:44 <Taede> lordaro: did you not just install a new psu?
20:42:54 <LordAro> it's either cpu or motherboard, imo
20:43:02 <planetmaker> unstable power might do, too
20:43:43 <LordAro> perhaps, but there's been nothing else reported
20:44:26 <Taede> if it didnt do it with the old psu, and you still have it i'd swawp em over just to eliminate it
20:44:48 <Taede> all it needs is a single rail to dip between readings
20:46:46 <LordAro> i did do it with the old psu, hence replacing it ;)
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20:50:15 <andythenorth> python somewhat understands these escapes
20:50:21 <andythenorth> with unwanted results
20:50:28 * andythenorth has to read the nml docs about grfid :P
20:51:15 <planetmaker> andythenorth, 4-byte literal string
20:51:38 <planetmaker> "blah" or "bla\0"
20:51:54 <andythenorth> it's the \ escapes there that are the problem
20:52:32 <andythenorth> so "CA\12\1E" seems to be evaluated by python, even though it's a string
20:52:48 <andythenorth> resulting in "CA [newline] E"
20:53:05 <Alberth> yes \12 = 8+2 = 10 = NL
20:54:11 <Alberth> ie you want a literal \ in the string, which you need to escape
20:54:44 <Alberth> in Python that would work
20:56:31 <andythenorth> doesn't for me :)
20:56:48 <andythenorth> oh, now nml is sulking about it :(
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20:58:28 <andythenorth> small victories :P
20:58:52 <planetmaker> many small victories win the battle ;-)
21:01:51 *** Djohaal has joined #openttd
21:03:19 <andythenorth> that is also my approach to dice wars
21:03:21 <andythenorth> which I am playing
21:03:27 <andythenorth> between compiles :P
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21:44:23 <andythenorth> maybe str2number() is my friend for grfids in switches
22:03:01 * andythenorth made a very silly mistake with logic
22:03:06 <andythenorth> maybe it's bed time :)
22:39:56 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: so how do i get this public key to you?
22:43:34 <planetmaker> paste it somewhere. forum mail. create a ticket at devzone help centre
22:43:44 <planetmaker> it's public, thus no secret :-)
22:50:28 <Eddi|zuHause> hm. so forum didn't like the extension...
22:50:49 <planetmaker> just paste it in a private irc conversation
22:52:49 <planetmaker> ok, key installed, should work now
22:55:48 <Eddi|zuHause> "Entfernt: Fügte 29 Änderungssätze mit 64 Änderungen an 27 Dateien hinzu" <-- sounds weird
22:56:41 <planetmaker> would sound slightly less weired if it was like "Entferntes Repo: ..."
22:57:00 <Eddi|zuHause> first, the ambiguity between "remote" and "removed", second, the unusual past tense...
22:57:55 <planetmaker> :-) Actually true, though. You only get the message after the changesets have been integrated into the remote repository
22:58:03 <planetmaker> it's in the post-commit hook
22:59:40 <Eddi|zuHause> what i always wondered: why does the project page have no link to the nightlies?
23:01:35 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, for example
23:02:37 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: personally, i'd expect it as one of those tabs
23:03:16 <planetmaker> Well, that requires a custom plug-in to redmine which does not exactly exist :-)
23:03:26 <planetmaker> I added to CETS the tab to hudson (=jenkins)
23:03:37 <planetmaker> that can be done by each project manager
23:04:02 <planetmaker> see settings->modules
23:04:26 <planetmaker> for old redmine versions there used to be an URL tab plug-in. But that does not work with newer versions any longer
23:04:35 <Eddi|zuHause> mäh, why does that say failed
23:04:42 <planetmaker> because it failed
23:04:52 <planetmaker> see the build logs. Missing graphics file
23:05:05 <Eddi|zuHause> looks like missing directory to put the file in
23:05:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i did have a "create directories" step somewhere...
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23:15:16 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: why does the console log start with listing the _previous_ head and not the current head?
23:19:33 <Eddi|zuHause> interesting "progress bar" :p
23:19:51 <Eddi|zuHause> what does it base its progress on?
23:21:12 <planetmaker> valid questions. I don't know :-)
23:21:33 <planetmaker> though the progress bar likely depends on the previous build time. It remembers that
23:22:19 <planetmaker> ok, that only failed to publish the build...
23:23:07 <Eddi|zuHause> "Error on sprite 759." <- not using grfcodec tip, i presume
23:24:00 <planetmaker> changeset: 965:a3e37207880b
23:24:32 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, rubidium fixed those errors a few days ago
23:25:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but that's not critical, just clutters the output
23:26:08 <Eddi|zuHause> the error message is bogus anyway
23:26:17 <Eddi|zuHause> something with "ID out of range"
23:26:33 <Eddi|zuHause> where the range is just larger in openttd
23:26:53 <Eddi|zuHause> it won't have anything to do with failing to publish
23:32:11 <planetmaker> no, that's different
23:34:18 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone besides me find it weird that nforenum just says "error" and leaves you to manually look into the file to find out what kind of error?
23:36:33 <planetmaker> could certainly be improved upon
23:40:39 <planetmaker> right. Just updating to tip won't update the repository if it's not preceeded by a pull :-)
23:40:48 <planetmaker> so grfcodec should now update itself properly, too
continue to next day ⏵
