IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-10-31
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05:24:11 <LeandroL> what helicopter can i use to transport oil from an oil rig to a refinery?
05:24:16 <LeandroL> and do i have to refit it?
05:24:28 <Supercheese> You should not use a helicopter, use tanker ships
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06:49:50 <LeandroL> Supercheese: how about airports that accept resources such as oil, iron ore, etc.
06:50:23 <LeandroL> those airports aren't adjacent to any other stations, i.e. they're just airports
06:50:52 <LeandroL> why do they display for example iron ore in their 'accepts' list?
06:51:25 <LeandroL> is it because you could potentially accept such resources if you join the airport to a station of some other kind?
06:51:42 <LeandroL> or is it actually possible to transport such resources with airborne vehicles?
06:51:55 <V453000> is if the aircraft set allows it
06:56:59 <Supercheese> Default airplanes should be refittable to most anything
06:57:14 <Supercheese> But they are not suitable to transport large amounts of bulk freight
06:57:38 * Supercheese has not played with default vehicles in ages
06:57:47 <Supercheese> Perhaps they aren't refittable to anything
06:58:20 <Supercheese> or rather, all things
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07:47:15 <LeandroL> i have 4 cities in a 128x64 map
07:47:32 <LeandroL> all my cities are growing every 4 days
07:47:48 <LeandroL> and yet, the world population is stuck at around 37,000
07:47:55 <LeandroL> and has been this way for the last 20 years
07:48:08 <LeandroL> and there's still plenty of space to grow all my cities
07:48:27 <LeandroL> any idea why this is happening and how to fix it?
07:48:45 <Supercheese> Make sure you minimize dead end roads, those can hurt house development
07:48:45 <LeandroL> i'd like to eventually have most of my map covered with houses/infrastructure
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08:01:39 <juzza1> 08:51 < LeandroL> is it because you could potentially accept such resources if you join the airport to a station of some other kind?
08:02:32 <juzza1> the game doesn't check if there actually is a vehicle type (for example, a plane) for that station that can pick up the goods
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08:59:47 <ipewannasay> guys, i want to ask about btpro.nl, is the site down or something?
09:09:57 <Xaroth|Work> I doubt btpro is in any way, shape or form supported by openttd
09:10:06 <Xaroth|Work> so you should really ask them
09:12:43 <ipewannasay> i thought you know something as it is one of the most multiplayer server :D
09:15:22 <planetmaker> ipewannasay, when did you last play on that server? I might be wrong, but I thought it's out-of-service for quite some time?
09:15:51 <planetmaker> but as said, contacting their admin staff is the right way, I'd say :-)
09:16:04 <ipewannasay> just got back yesterday after 1 year gone
09:32:10 <planetmaker> ipewannasay, did you look at all at their website?
09:35:40 <planetmaker> (obviously I was wrong with it being down and mixed up server names)
09:39:33 <ipewannasay> i can't open the whole website
09:50:46 <planetmaker> that's your end then, not the server
09:51:20 <planetmaker> I could browse their website just fine half an hour ago
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09:54:16 <peter1138> Actually no, I had a look but it was down.
09:54:49 <peter1138> Yes, it is working now.
09:56:03 <V453000> I didnt look but its fine
10:05:01 <ipewannasay> still not working for me haha
10:05:20 <ipewannasay> gotta check the proxy setting
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14:27:41 <bn8735ghb> Do usa&Israel use chat &facebook 2 spy?!?!?!?
14:27:43 <bn8735ghb> Do they record &analyse everything we type?!?!?!?
14:27:43 <bn8735ghb> Do usa&israel use chat&social communicationprog(facebook&twitter) to collect informations,,,,can we call that spying!!!!
14:27:45 <bn8735ghb> هل تستخدم امريكاواسرئيل الشات والفيس بوك للتجسس!؟!؟!؟!؟!؟!؟!
14:27:45 <bn8735ghb> Do usa&Israel use chat &facebook 2 spy?!?!?!?
14:27:47 <bn8735ghb> Do they record &analyse everything we type?!?!?!?
14:27:47 <bn8735ghb> Do usa&israel use chat&social communicationprog(facebook&twitter) to collect informations,,,,can we call that spying!!!!
14:27:49 <bn8735ghb> هل تستخدم امريكاواسرئيل الشات والفيس بوك للتجسس!؟!؟!؟!؟!؟!؟!
14:27:49 <bn8735ghb> Do usa&Israel use chat &facebook 2 spy?!?!?!?
14:27:51 <bn8735ghb> Do they record &analyse everything we type?!?!?!?
14:27:51 <bn8735ghb> Do usa&israel use chat&social communicationprog(facebook&twitter) to collect informations,,,,can we call that spying!!!!
14:27:53 <bn8735ghb> هل تستخدم امريكاواسرئيل الشات والفيس بوك للتجسس!؟!؟!؟!؟!؟!؟!
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15:57:37 <LordAro> so i have to write an essay on a "classic text" in CS, any ideas?
15:58:04 <frosch123> what's a classic text?
15:58:47 <LordAro> a famous, or ground breaking paper
15:58:57 <LordAro> something "well known"
15:59:12 <frosch123> any specific area of cs?
15:59:37 <frosch123> donald e knuth is classic by definition
16:09:14 <Eddi|zuHause> knuth, dijkstra, ...
16:09:40 <Eddi|zuHause> dijkstra's rant on "GOTO" is probably a "classic text" :)
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16:14:27 <frosch123> planetmaker: which vm is the rigth one to test fs#5793 ?
16:15:09 <frosch123> oh, there are more comments in flyspray
16:15:57 <frosch123> i guess that backtrace is sufficient
16:16:32 <frosch123> it also explains why reproducting it is luck :)
16:16:58 <frosch123> it depends on the random order your linker assmebles the ottd binary
16:17:47 <Taede> is it random per-machine, or per-compile?
16:18:28 <frosch123> i have no idea in which order the linker processes the object files
16:19:28 <frosch123> the effect depends on the initialisation order of global variables
16:19:36 <frosch123> s/global/static/ or whatever
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16:37:42 <Taede> seems to fail as expected
16:37:46 <Taede> (as in, no more crashes)
16:38:30 <frosch123> ok, let's wait for fonsinchen, whether there is something critically skipped with that patch :)
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18:45:17 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25933 trunk/src/lang/swedish.txt (2013-10-31 18:45:10 UTC)
18:45:18 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:19 <DorpsGek> swedish - 13 changes by Joel_A
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20:03:28 <andythenorth> so I wasn't trolling about tech levels
20:11:17 <frosch123> ask V, he might do it for you then
20:12:10 <andythenorth> we'd need a newgrf spec addition?
20:12:27 <andythenorth> and a patch to the core game :P
20:12:46 <planetmaker> first it needs be clear what and how :-)
20:14:02 <andythenorth> so I think it's per company
20:14:05 <andythenorth> a single tech level
20:14:21 <andythenorth> no fine-grained 'train tech level', 'industry tech level' etc
20:15:58 <frosch123> you mean something like "date for engines"?
20:16:31 <frosch123> you could even solve daylength with that then, if people don't mind that diesel is invented in 2100
20:17:14 <andythenorth> oh you missed that discussion? o_O
20:17:19 <andythenorth> solves daylength
20:17:34 <frosch123> well, sometimes it is better to miss a discussion
20:17:42 <andythenorth> allows comparison across newgrfs when playing NoCarGoal type GS :)
20:17:47 <andythenorth> allows GS to control progression
20:18:06 <andythenorth> solved something else as well, I forget
20:19:24 <andythenorth> oh it also solves the silly problems with randomised vehicle intro dates
20:23:40 <andythenorth> vehicles could be introduced and expired against a tech level
20:23:48 <andythenorth> so expiry could be reliable
20:24:00 <andythenorth> and vehicles could depend on other vehicles for availability
20:27:46 <fonsinchen> frosch123: The patch looks good.
20:28:12 <Alberth> fonsinchen: I was wondering about the following: 1. Patch GetVia to break when returning 0. 2. Start a new game, and build a further unused station as the first action
20:28:55 <Alberth> would that be useful to try?
20:29:19 <fonsinchen> About that game where you exhibited the bug with cargo to station 0?
20:29:40 <Alberth> yes, but there it would not work, as I use station 0
20:29:59 <fonsinchen> What are you trying to achieve?
20:30:16 <Alberth> catching GetVia in the act :)
20:31:02 <fonsinchen> Oh, I wouldn't worry too much about that bug from may. There were several other bugs in the mean time which might have had something to do with it
20:31:16 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25934 trunk/src/linkgraph/linkgraphjob.cpp (2013-10-31 20:31:10 UTC)
20:31:17 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5793]: Do not access items from other pools in pool item destructors during pool cleaning.
20:31:25 <fonsinchen> Remember the off-by-one error? That may also produce a 0 if the only flow is 1.
20:31:50 <Alberth> ok, was just pondering about it
20:37:12 <andythenorth> so if I wanted a GS to be able to limit route construction (number of track pieces laid etc), that is already possible?
20:38:40 <frosch123> currently you can only "limit" by charging money
20:39:03 <frosch123> well, actually you could also bulldoze
20:39:12 <andythenorth> ok, so alongside a tech level (which I think would be uncontroversial)...
20:39:19 <andythenorth> ...I am wondering about a materials level
20:39:24 <andythenorth> which would be controversial :P
20:40:10 <frosch123> it does not count pieces of track or similar
20:40:47 <frosch123> status of that page is btw. that i cannot think of a gs idea that would interest me to code it :p
20:41:47 <andythenorth> frosch123: regions would achieve same idea as material count, different methods
20:42:16 <andythenorth> I was thinking e.g. town awards 500 tiles of track/road per year for good service
20:42:26 <andythenorth> regions might have same gameplay result
20:43:08 <andythenorth> I have been playing casual games with a lot of 'tinker with stuff, unlock levels and items' play
20:43:08 <frosch123> the idea of regions was that you can define map areas, assign various properties to it, and reference it in story book and goals
20:43:29 <andythenorth> yeah, I like them
20:43:40 <andythenorth> just don't have a GS idea I'm burning to make
20:43:43 <fonsinchen> frosch123: Actually, at the point where it crashes, the linkgraphjob destructor only accesses its own data. So, even though the fix is correct, it doesn't fix the actual problem ... or am I missing anything?
20:43:59 <frosch123> it shall also be deterministic
20:45:50 <frosch123> fonsinchen: where are the nodes stored?
20:45:55 <fonsinchen> In fact the real problem is that the number of nodes in the linkgraph differs from the number of nodes in the linkgraphjob
20:46:23 <fonsinchen> job->link_graph.nodes
20:46:55 <frosch123> i thought the problem is that the linkgraph is freed before the linkgraphjob
20:47:59 <fonsinchen> No, the problem is that LinkGraphJob::Init() may not have been called yet
20:48:50 <frosch123> can you adjust my comment in ~LinkGraphJob then?
20:49:02 <fonsinchen> We can only be sure that the numbers match if that is the case, so we might need a stricter criterion for stopping the constructor there. I'll check that.
20:50:29 <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway, i don't like adding a random set of gs restrictions. i don't want gs to make the same mistake as newgrf, and adding random callbacks which affect stuf intranslaprently, causing desync trouble, ai trouble and user interface trouble :)
20:51:15 <andythenorth> I don't think tech level is a restriction btw
20:51:18 <frosch123> so, no callbacks, or events, just static properties
20:51:27 <frosch123> which a gs can assign, and other can read without side effects
20:54:10 <andythenorth> so put material count aside, because it would mean a crapload of quite intense changes to construction
20:54:23 <andythenorth> but tech level would be an int 0-(some large value)
20:54:34 <andythenorth> normalised against the default temperate game
20:54:55 <andythenorth> and we'd patch ottd to incremement tech level monthly by default (GS could modify)
20:54:58 <frosch123> i think of tech-level as an actual date
20:55:11 <andythenorth> and we'd patch vehicle availability to look at tech level, not date
20:55:20 <andythenorth> frosch123: one idea was simply to hide date :P
20:55:35 <frosch123> well, you need to dispaly something in the purchase list :p
20:55:47 <andythenorth> 'need' is a strong word :)
20:56:03 <frosch123> i assume you do not want to break the whole game
20:56:14 <frosch123> like economy window, graphs, news, ...
20:56:41 <andythenorth> maybe I do want to break it all :)
20:56:42 <frosch123> you might also need to incorporate vehicle preview
20:57:10 <frosch123> like disabling the default preview, and instead use gs to assign previews to companies
20:57:24 <andythenorth> yup, that would be a smart move
20:57:26 <frosch123> gs can ask questions as well anyway
20:57:35 <frosch123> though not with the fance engine picture :p
20:57:41 <andythenorth> so I didn't think this was a quick patch
20:57:46 <andythenorth> but it might be a worthwhile one
20:58:00 <andythenorth> I think it's more interesting than most other ponies
20:58:23 <frosch123> i still have no seen an actual concept for a gs using it :p
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21:00:11 <frosch123> you do need need an egg to make a concept of a chicken
21:00:21 <frosch123> you only need a pencil
21:00:31 <andythenorth> it's a perennial debate :)
21:01:41 <andythenorth> ok, so item (1), GS that simply manages tech level to allow for longer gaps between vehicle introductions - an alternative way to solve what most people think daylength is for
21:02:25 <andythenorth> item (2) a GS where you solve mini-challenges (deliver x amount cargo, please this town, buy 10 of engine ABC) - and the goal is solely to get tech level to ${some value}
21:04:17 <andythenorth> item (3) 'constant decline', your tech level will fall constantly, unless you meet certain goals. If you fail, you quickly fall into a death spiral (hmm, kind of Dwarf Fortress)
21:04:47 <fonsinchen> The real problem is that AfterLoadLinkGraphs may not be called from AfterLoadGame. Thus the threads aren't started and the jobs aren't initialized. Incidentally that also triggers a pool clean which resolves the situation
21:04:50 <andythenorth> item (4) GS where donating to OTTD increases your tech level :P
21:04:57 <fonsinchen> But maybe we shouldn't rely on that ...
21:05:43 <andythenorth> note to GS authors: we need a static property 'datetime of last donation' and 'amount of last donation' and 'total donated'
21:12:22 <frosch123> andythenorth: decreasing tech level is hard
21:12:50 <andythenorth> because vehicles have to disappear?
21:12:52 <frosch123> what would it do? retire new engines, reintroduced already retired ones?
21:13:03 <andythenorth> but I appreciate the probelm
21:13:10 <frosch123> it's hard because of the reintroduction/retirement
21:13:26 <andythenorth> so no dwarf fortress GS :P
21:18:07 <Zuu> I still think a Ticket to Ride inspired GS would be interesting. Giving the user a selection of quests, picking a few and if you complete them you gain points but if you didn't you lose points instead.
21:18:52 <Zuu> I noticed an interesting discussion on the logs :-)
21:18:54 <frosch123> Zuu: i added a patch to fs#5786, maybe you want to comment on the api :)
21:19:55 <Zuu> Didn't you commit the patch attached there?
21:20:29 <frosch123> there is stil an api extension
21:20:33 <frosch123> but actually also an api change
21:20:48 <frosch123> currently passing 0 to SetGrowthRate resets it to non-custom
21:20:57 <frosch123> but that is neither documented not unintuitive
21:21:18 <frosch123> so, i think of removing that 0 meaning, and add a different constant insterad
21:21:24 <Zuu> Is it possible with a GS wrapper in compat.nut to emulate the old behaviour?
21:21:25 <frosch123> while "0" would mean as fast as possible
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21:22:03 <frosch123> well, yes, it would be possible to retain the behaviour with compat.nut. but i actually think it's rather a bug
21:22:27 <Zuu> Given the many Town growth GS that we have, that hidden feature may be in use.
21:22:34 <frosch123> i don't think anyone uses it, but instead it is quite likely that someone uses a formular to compute a vaule and passes 0 without the intention to do what it does
21:23:07 <frosch123> i don't think any town growth gs wants to reset to normal behavior tbh :p
21:24:01 <Zuu> NAI have a in-game setting to do that. It follows the API documentation that you changed on how to make OpenTTD take back control over the towns.
21:24:46 <frosch123> what documentation?
21:24:50 <Zuu> IIRC, it removes all restrictions, set an advanced setting and then OpenTTD will from time to time manage towns and make town growth return to normal.
21:25:22 <frosch123> well, i have no idea what that documentation meant
21:25:35 <frosch123> there is no trace in ottd which would do something remotely similar
21:26:51 <Zuu> It did seem to work when I tested the On/Off-button in NAI, but it may be that some of the steps that I do based on that documentation are not needed.
21:27:43 <frosch123> well, i'll take a look at nai
21:31:06 <Zuu> Hmm, NAI do use SetGrowthRate(id, 0), but with a comment that it is made on the purpose of setting growth to 0.
21:33:03 <frosch123> GSTown.SetGrowthRate(this.id, 365 * 1000); // grow every 1000 years <- 365000 is fairly out of range
21:33:03 <Zuu> Turning off NAI is initiated in main.nut:274
21:34:47 <frosch123> ok, but apparantly NAI sets it to 0 with then intention to reset it
21:34:52 <frosch123> and give control back to ottd
21:35:31 <Zuu> So if OpenTTD takes back control too early, it is not a big problem here.
21:36:06 <Zuu> Your change will not break it as the code was written with the assumption that it works the way it will work after your patch is applied.
21:38:40 <frosch123> my patch removes the behaviour for "0"
21:39:26 <Zuu> hmm, oh, that line of mine that set it to 0, should set it to a large number. Its possible that I made a logic error there.
21:39:35 <Zuu> At least from how I read the comment.
21:40:18 <Zuu> It actually should set it to a large number and not zero.
21:40:20 <frosch123> yeah, the comment is weird
21:40:27 <frosch123> but i think the code does what it should :p
21:41:08 <frosch123> but my patch also breaks the 365000
21:41:08 <Zuu> So by mistake I did use a feature I didn't know exist :-)
21:41:27 <frosch123> previously the api function used a uint16, so 365000 was just casted
21:41:32 <frosch123> now the command would fail
21:41:56 <frosch123> so, how much of nai shall i break? :p
21:42:01 <Zuu> The 365000 thing is something that I'll have to fix if it is an overflow.
21:42:20 <frosch123> @calc 365000 & 65535
21:42:20 <DorpsGek> frosch123: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
21:42:25 <frosch123> @calc 365000 and 65535
21:42:51 <Zuu> Well, I can easily upload a new NAI.
21:42:52 <frosch123> hmm, it should also have failed before
21:43:24 <frosch123> well, so, add the 0 thingie to compat.nut then?
21:44:13 <Zuu> Well, to use that code/feature that pass 365000, you need to toggle a setting in the GS and then place a sign on the town tile with a text documented in the readme. Eg. not many users will do this by mistake when just playing around.
21:45:16 <Zuu> The 0-thingie to compat.nut may be good. I can update NAI, but I don't know which other GSes that may be affected too.
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