IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-10-29
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01:45:33 <LeandroL> i've left a game running for the past day or so and no my surprise, I'm being charged with interest in the millions, but my loan has been fully paid off literally centuries ago
01:45:45 <LeandroL> here's a screenshot:
01:46:12 <LeandroL> i'm running openttd version 1.3.2
01:47:34 <Markk> LeandroL: That's because you're on minus.
01:48:04 <Markk> You see that your bank balance are on minus, ye?
01:48:22 <LeandroL> having a negative bank balance produces negative interest?
01:48:24 <Markk> That's why you're getting quite an interest.
01:48:35 <LeandroL> i thought you only got interest from your loan
01:48:54 <LeandroL> it obviously makes sense that you have to pay for running on a negative bank balance somehow
01:48:58 <Markk> You're borrowing the money requeried to pay for your trains and infrastructure from the bank.
01:49:19 <LeandroL> thanks for the insight
01:49:20 <Markk> You don't earn enough money.
01:49:37 <LeandroL> at this point there's no way to go back to positive figures, right?
01:49:57 <Japa> Since the max loan is less than your debt.
01:49:59 <Markk> I'm surprised that you aren't bankrupt yet.
01:50:05 <LeandroL> can you go bankrupt?
01:50:14 <Japa> You could try to sell all your trains or something, maybe
01:50:16 <LeandroL> when and how does that happen?
01:50:28 <LeandroL> i only have two trains and like 10 bus stations with 1 bus each
01:50:37 <LeandroL> i was running an experiment on city growth
01:50:38 <Markk> Yeah, there's no change.
01:51:02 <LeandroL> 5 stations per city and just a couple trains to boost my economy initially and make enough money to build a road grid to speed up city growth
01:51:16 <LeandroL> i forgot about it and left the experiment running overnight
01:51:30 <LeandroL> and i came home to a negative bank balance well into the billions
01:51:36 <Japa> Cargodist is great for single-city games.
01:52:55 <LeandroL> here's a whole map screenshot, in case anyone is interested
01:58:24 <Eddi|zuHause> <Markk> I'm surprised that you aren't bankrupt yet. <-- you can only go bankrupt in multiplayer
01:59:57 <LeandroL> Eddi|zuHause: that makes sense, thanks
02:00:33 <LeandroL> ok, different question
02:00:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and in single player there's the money cheat
02:00:49 <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: That's what I thought.
02:01:00 <LeandroL> i've seen there's an autorenew feature that replaces old vehicles with new ones of the same model
02:01:12 <LeandroL> but, is there an autoreplace feature?
02:01:26 <LeandroL> something that periodically replaces my vehicles with newer models
02:01:50 <LeandroL> i'm tired of having to replace my old steam locomotives with newer diesel ones by hand
02:01:58 <Eddi|zuHause> in the vehicle list. use the manage list dropdown
02:02:15 <LeandroL> yeah but i mean, i don't want to do that every few hours
02:02:25 <LeandroL> i want to let the game run for days without human intervention
02:02:53 <LeandroL> after a while the old vehicles become unavailable and so the autorenew feature stops working
02:04:14 <LeandroL> am i explaining myself well?
02:13:40 <Eddi|zuHause> ah. so you want to set a rule before the vehicles become available
02:13:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess nobody ever felt the need to do that
02:14:06 <Eddi|zuHause> so it's not implemented
02:14:34 <Eddi|zuHause> wouldn't it be easier to just start in 2050 and use the latest vehicle only?
02:22:07 <LeandroL> i found a configuration parameter that makes vehicles be available forever
02:22:54 <LeandroL> it's not exactly what i wanted but it's probably good enough to keep the income stable over a few centuries without manual intervention
02:25:25 <Eddi|zuHause> while at it, also turn inflation off :)
02:27:22 <LeandroL> i'm tempted to, but i'd like to keep the settings as close to the default set as possible
02:28:20 <LeandroL> you're probably right though, eventually the inflated prices will surpass the income generated from the transports
02:28:30 <LeandroL> unless the income also increases with inflation?
02:33:03 <Eddi|zuHause> it does, but at a slower rate
02:33:16 <Eddi|zuHause> after 170 years, they're around factor 5 apart
02:34:41 <Eddi|zuHause> there's no possible way you're going to be able to counter that effect without manual interference
02:35:36 <Eddi|zuHause> like discontinuing short, unprofitable routes
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10:41:27 <kero> Is there a way to launch openttd using an alternative .openttd-whatever repository ?
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11:09:09 <planetmaker> kero, what do you mean?
11:09:33 <planetmaker> you can check out openttd sources from whatever repo you feel comfortable to trust and compile that
11:09:35 <kero> well when I launch openttd, it uses and search files in my ~/.openttd
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11:09:55 <planetmaker> it uses the files in all paths as outlined in section 4.2
11:09:57 <kero> I was wondering if it can use another repository
11:10:14 <planetmaker> I'd not call file system paths repository though :-)
11:10:50 <planetmaker> you cannot configure the default paths other than at compile time
11:11:10 <planetmaker> you can force it to use the ones local to your binary, if you put a config file next to it
11:11:11 <MNIM-zZz> wait, seriously, planetmaker?
11:11:26 <planetmaker> MNIM-zZz, read section 4 of the readme please
11:11:50 <MNIM-zZz> would've thought the data folder would be less hardcoded.
11:11:51 <kero> I was meaning changing repository on the fly
11:12:02 <MNIM-zZz> also, readme? hehehehehe ;)
11:12:02 <kero> an option a little bit like the -c for config file
11:12:06 <planetmaker> you hardly can configure the config path in a config file - how should it find it otherwise in a non-default place, MNIM-zZz ?
11:14:00 <planetmaker> kero, as you're on linux you could nicely make use of symlinks, though ;-)
11:14:36 <kero> that's anyway what I do atm :)
11:14:53 <planetmaker> kero, thus what I do, I usually want the reverse: specific config file per server which share the newgrf, ai and base set dirs:
11:15:31 <planetmaker> I put the cfg next to the binary. And symlink the newgrf, ai content_download, game and baseset dirs to their counterparts in ~/.openttd
11:16:11 <planetmaker> thus any download from the server with its individual config file lands in the general-use content-download dir
11:18:31 <planetmaker> but what problem do you try to solve, kero ?
11:20:19 <kero> I wouldn't speak about a problem. Sometimes I wan't to launch openttd completely vanilla, without config changes/newgrf, to check things
11:21:11 <kero> specially because I don't wan't my openttd.cfg file being changed while I try things
11:24:12 <Eddi|zuHause> kero: try the "-c" option to specify the location of the config file, then it should use paths relative to that location
11:25:18 <kero> I already tried, but I doesn't really works. It also loads things in the original ~/.openttd
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11:30:01 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but it wouldn't _save_ them there
11:35:08 <peter1138> Have we not switched to XDG paths yet?
11:40:31 <Rubidium> is that part of systemd? ;)
11:41:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i know that we used xdg open for launching the browser, but otherwise i have no clue
11:42:59 <Eddi|zuHause> kero: if you're worried about "generic" stuff slipping in, don't have an .openttd directory at all, but use the -c option for all instances
11:43:34 <peter1138> Well, as we still use .openttd, that's a no :-)
11:44:57 <kero> Eddi|zuHause : indeed, i'll maybee to that
11:46:01 <kero> Now: it's not as if it was a great deal. I was just wondering if the possibility existed to specify the directory path.
11:49:34 <Eddi|zuHause> www.youtube.com/watch?v=CarpH6OV3xk
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12:15:38 <Eddi|zuHause> kero: well the other solution would be to run them as different users :)
12:18:39 <kero> in french we would call that kind of solution "tuer une mouche avec un bazooka"
12:21:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd assume that means the same as "mit kanonen auf spatzen schießen" :p
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16:21:48 <alluke> swedish houses set lacks big stone houses in early years
16:22:21 <planetmaker> did you draw them?
16:28:16 <alluke> but they seem to appear too late
16:28:34 <alluke> those existed already in 1800s
16:28:50 <alluke> its 1925 and all houses are small ones in the suburbs
16:29:02 <alluke> city centrums are all empty
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17:40:41 <Sacro> Anyone here code Python?
17:41:25 <frosch123> python is likely the most popular language in this channel
17:41:46 <frosch123> though it's hard to rate against c++ considernig all the idlers :p
17:41:54 <V453000> what, even people who dont know what python is hate it around here
17:42:18 <frosch123> V453000: python is the language, nml is written in. no python, no nuts, ok?
17:42:46 <Sacro> I'm trying to move some classes into modules, but the class inherites from a variable decalred from an ORM
17:42:53 <Sacro> I'm unable to figure out just how this works ><
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18:00:14 <Alberth> Sacro: what's the problem?
18:00:55 <Sacro> db = Database('sqlite', 'cifimporter.sqlite', create_db=True)
18:01:30 <Sacro> and then I can define class foo(db.Entity): ...
18:02:09 <Sacro> however I want to move these classes into seperate files
18:02:20 <Sacro> but I need to pass the db ... poi nter to them
18:02:36 <Sacro> also I'm getting stupid amounts of packet loss over wifi
18:04:49 <Alberth> make a global db in one file, then import that in the file of class foo
18:05:39 <Sacro> I put global db in both files
18:06:18 <Alberth> you need 1 db, unless you want two dbs, of course
18:06:59 <Alberth> a.py: db = .... b.py: import a class foo(a.db.Entity): ...
18:08:15 <Sacro> Doesn't then that couple foo to a?
18:08:45 <Sacro> this is why I don't code ><
18:09:15 <Alberth> it is coupled, isn't it? foo is a derived class from a.db.Entity
18:11:24 <Sacro> Well, I wanted to have all my ORM classes in seperate files
18:11:53 <Sacro> if I have to pass the calling class then that makes it rather pointless
18:12:19 <Alberth> Python is not Java; it's fine to have classes that belong together in one file
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18:13:10 <DorpsGek> frosch123: zuu was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 0 days, 20 hours, 53 minutes, and 14 seconds ago: <Zuu> hello
18:13:45 <Sacro> Alberth: yes but it was more so I could easily bring them all togeher
18:14:59 <Sacro> so why does 'from foo import bar' fai
18:15:05 <Sacro> but 'import foo.bar' works
18:17:38 <Alberth> the last time I checked, Python recommended to use full package paths, ie from the root of the package.
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18:17:56 <Alberth> could that be an issue here?
18:18:22 <Alberth> there were ideas to make it more flexible, but I didn't check what was eventually changed
18:19:42 <Alberth> it may also depend on how you use the imported module
18:19:59 <Alberth> in the former, you have "bar" but not "foo"
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18:45:21 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25930 /trunk/src/lang (english_US.txt italian.txt) (2013-10-29 18:45:14 UTC)
18:45:22 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:23 <DorpsGek> english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
18:45:24 <DorpsGek> italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
18:48:38 <Eddi|zuHause> <Sacro> so why does 'from foo import bar' fai <-- that only works if foo/__init__.py contains "import bar"
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19:34:17 <andythenorth> I do enjoy this thread
19:34:24 <andythenorth> "OpenTTD is basically no good" :)
19:34:43 <V453000> the 552 or 2158th edition?
19:37:45 <andythenorth> what we really need is a way to level up
19:37:50 <andythenorth> and two forms of in-game currency
19:37:51 <Pinkbeast> I'm not sure anything has _changed_ to make it easier...
19:38:01 <andythenorth> one of which can only be obtained by buying it from us for real money
19:38:09 <andythenorth> and experience points
19:38:23 <andythenorth> and mini-challenges that unlock bonus items
19:38:36 * andythenorth has been exposed to too many casual games with in-game purchases recently :P
19:40:08 <Eddi|zuHause> there were lots of changes that made the game "easier"
19:41:04 <Alberth> reduce mapsize back to 256 x 256 ?
19:41:35 <V453000> not worth bothering with these threads anymore :D
19:42:03 <V453000> also you need to be able to shoot people in the game
19:42:09 <V453000> otherwise its just sub par
19:42:30 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I found the most interesting thing that the person argues with difficulty levels which don't exist anymore for quite some time :-)
19:43:16 <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, try to make money on a 64^2, a 256^2 and a 1024^2 map :-)
19:44:14 <Pinkbeast> On a 64^2 one can make enough money to connect every industry and town and transport all their cargo (that vehicle speed will permit rating to allow) and terraform the whole map to a pancake... what would you _do_ with more?
19:44:48 <andythenorth> it's such a spurious issue anyway :P
19:44:57 <Pinkbeast> I mean, I think using earning money as an insight into difficulty only matters when there's something to buy (or if, Simutrans-style, you might go bankrupt).
19:45:57 <andythenorth> it's intriguing: many of the suggestions for make it harder revolve around 'make it a more realistic simulation'
19:46:11 <andythenorth> because, fuck yeah, reality has such great gameplay :P
19:46:18 <V453000> those threads should actively be trolled by andythenorth I feel like
19:46:27 <andythenorth> I am in a trolly mood
19:46:36 <andythenorth> I did some epic Lego trolling this week
19:49:45 <andythenorth> the casual games I've been playing are stuff like Pocket Trains and Dragon City
19:49:58 <andythenorth> they are really beautiful, really nice sound effects, and really addictive
19:50:12 <planetmaker> and really expensive pay2win
19:50:12 <andythenorth> but they are free-to-download. The business model is in-app purchases
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19:50:32 <andythenorth> so all the 'gameplay' is really tedious menial tasks, with loooong time delays
19:50:50 <andythenorth> and basically you can then spend £1.49 - £99 to just win stuff
19:51:01 <andythenorth> so it's basically menial work and/or shopping
19:51:09 <andythenorth> zero strategy or tactics
19:51:44 <Alberth> but then you'd need to think, which takes brain power you could spend on buying stuff
19:53:04 <andythenorth> they are *really* addictive
19:53:16 <andythenorth> and quite rewarding for first few days, as you make level progression quickly
19:53:25 <andythenorth> and they are really well crafted
19:53:31 <andythenorth> but I'm going right off them :P
19:53:43 <V453000> mor nuts - time well spent
19:54:28 <andythenorth> it's boring to realise that the only thing I'm playing against is my own attention span
19:54:37 <andythenorth> and whether I cave in and hit 'purchase'
19:55:01 <andythenorth> I have no point here, just observing
19:55:18 <Eddi|zuHause> we are clearly in the last days of our civilization
19:56:20 <andythenorth> I think we're always in the last days of our current civilisation :P
19:56:43 <Eddi|zuHause> it's obvious that it's completely falling apart in the next 50-100 years
19:57:44 <andythenorth> afaik, from some tiny historical knowledge, that has been obvious for at least 2000 years
19:58:15 <andythenorth> and as at least Indian civilisation history goes back about 5k years, I _think_ it has been obvious that long
19:58:37 <Pinkbeast> Pretty sure some of the Chinese dynasties thought they'd last forever
20:00:26 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i mean like the easter island, the khmer empire or the maya empire kind of "falling apart"
20:00:27 <andythenorth> anyway, I had an idea, might be nonsense
20:00:41 <andythenorth> trying to figure out what an OpenTTD with no dates would be like
20:00:58 <Eddi|zuHause> where 100 years later nobody even remembers there being an empire
20:01:03 <andythenorth> time progression remains
20:01:04 <Xaroth|Work> a timeless game, andythenorth.
20:01:17 <andythenorth> but vehicle introductions etc are triggered against goals, not dates
20:01:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: implement "research"
20:02:10 <Xaroth|Work> make a bigass skill tree
20:02:13 <Xaroth|Work> like path of exile
20:02:50 <Pinkbeast> Eddi|zuHause: I daresay the survivors will _remember_ the USA's hegemony
20:02:53 <Eddi|zuHause> could make your engines 3% faster or 5% stronger
20:02:56 <andythenorth> I've been playing a game with crafting
20:02:59 <planetmaker> the concept of skills and the tree there is actually quite nice
20:03:11 <andythenorth> crafting in a pay-for-stuff game is really lame
20:04:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: after the first european expeditions crossed north america to the mississippi region, they found a civilisation that built pyramids and stuff, when the settlers moved there 100 years later, the inhabitants were so decimated that they didn't have any knowledge of who built these ancient pyramids
20:05:23 <Pinkbeast> Eddi|zuHause: Indeed, but the present arrangement is much, much better at producing written artifacts
20:05:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: that was true 20-200 years ago, but nowadays most things are electronic
20:06:11 <Eddi|zuHause> and who's gonna be able to read a DVD in 20 years time?
20:06:43 <planetmaker> the present is terrible at leaving artefacts which last beyond 50 years time span
20:06:53 <Rubidium> even reading flash cards from a camera of half a decade ago is troublesome ;)
20:07:04 <planetmaker> unless it's printed books.
20:07:47 <Pinkbeast> Hey, my 64M Flash card still works (but more seriously, "paperless office", my arse - computers are astonishingly good at producing print)
20:08:26 <yorick> "to unlock more than 100 trains, press the donate link below!"
20:09:34 <Eddi|zuHause> germany makes an archive for future generations to find, in some abandoned mine in a remote forest. there they don't store anything electronic, but on microfiche, so something a human could decipher if the archive is found in 500 years
20:09:58 <andythenorth> assuming magnifying glasses survive
20:10:40 <andythenorth> planetmaker: how would skills tree work?
20:10:45 <andythenorth> I haven't played many games like that
20:11:05 <andythenorth> games now all seem to have endless 'you won a fricking gold star' constant reward mechanics
20:11:10 <andythenorth> 'achievment unlocked'
20:11:23 <Pinkbeast> Turning vehicle arrival dates into an R&D budget could be interesting
20:11:28 <planetmaker> andythenorth, in which game? OpenTTDPay2Win?
20:11:37 <Eddi|zuHause> one of the problems of our current time is that we dig up so many archeological artifacts that when that knowledge gets lost again, the next civilization will have problems finding artifacts not only about our current time, but also about times before ours
20:13:24 <planetmaker> andythenorth, Indeed I like the path of exile way: define a few character 'classes'. And then they can move on in a web of paths from that point
20:13:35 <planetmaker> and each step along a path gives you +X in a certain skill
20:13:58 <planetmaker> skills not every time the same, but you know what comes
20:14:02 <Eddi|zuHause> you never ever have enough skill points :p
20:14:03 <planetmaker> thus you can choose
20:14:09 <planetmaker> and know which paths are nice
20:14:15 * andythenorth went searching for Achievement Unlocked
20:14:24 <andythenorth> "Who needs gameplay when you have ACHIEVEMENTS?"
20:14:30 <andythenorth> "Focus solely on your ultimate destiny... doing random tasks that have nothing to do with anything. Metagame yourself with ease! Self-satisfaction never felt so... artificial!"
20:14:47 <Pinkbeast> "Upgrade Complete" is quite cute as well, in a similiar vein
20:14:59 <V453000> yeah unlocking nuts train levels and classes for example XD
20:15:01 <Alberth> andythenorth: sounds like your random GS :)
20:15:26 <andythenorth> It's all just a bit bizarre
20:15:28 <Pinkbeast> V453000: NUTS would be a good fit because the "next" vehicle is actually expected to be better, yes.
20:15:40 <andythenorth> when I grew up you had 'level complete' etc
20:15:51 <andythenorth> but now kids get achievements, and for fricking everything
20:15:57 <andythenorth> cleaned teeth: have an achievement
20:16:07 <andythenorth> went to school: have an achievement
20:16:23 <andythenorth> and this isn't a rant about 'kids today', it's nothing to do with them, they're 3 and don't choose this stuff
20:16:48 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, the "achievement unlocked" generation :)
20:16:49 <V453000> achievements doesnt have to influence gameplay
20:16:59 <V453000> e.g. starcraft - you get a shitload of various achievements which are fun
20:17:07 <V453000> but it wont cause your game to be cuter etc
20:17:16 <V453000> well yeah you can get portraits and meh, but not gameplay wise
20:17:32 <Eddi|zuHause> achievement unlocked: unicorn bonus level
20:17:39 <andythenorth> Car games that unlocked new car parts makes sense
20:18:06 <andythenorth> I was playing Euro Truck Simulator for the last few months...Achievement: You Drove To Frankfurt
20:18:09 <andythenorth> fuck yeah, I'm winning
20:18:13 <andythenorth> let's keep playing
20:18:19 <andythenorth> I'm really motivated
20:18:27 <Eddi|zuHause> which frankfurt?
20:18:56 <andythenorth> the teeny tiny pseudo one (Frankfurt-am-Main I think) in the game
20:18:59 * Pinkbeast did go to most of the cities just to see which landmarks they got in the skybox
20:19:01 <andythenorth> or there could be some kind of strategy...and tactics :P
20:19:06 <Eddi|zuHause> # Weil Frankfurt so groß ist teilt man's in zwei ein
20:19:21 <Eddi|zuHause> # In Frankfurt an der Oder und Frankfurt am Main
20:19:35 <andythenorth> anyway, we should put achievements into OpenTTD so that we can attract many more players
20:19:38 <andythenorth> and be truly successful
20:20:51 <planetmaker> goals are achievements, no?
20:21:08 <planetmaker> And yes, even when achievements do not influence the gameplay, they can be there
20:21:15 <andythenorth> goals are different to achievements
20:21:19 <planetmaker> they give a 'purpose' in open-end games otherwise
20:21:22 <planetmaker> andythenorth, how?
20:21:39 <planetmaker> really depends on how you utilise openttd's 'goals'
20:21:41 <andythenorth> goal is a thorny word in English
20:21:47 <andythenorth> can mean different things
20:21:51 <planetmaker> it could simply give you a medal - and do otherwise nothing
20:21:58 <planetmaker> and keep track of those in the storybook
20:22:06 <andythenorth> I view a goal as a win condition, with some progression
20:22:13 <andythenorth> either closer to winning, or unlocking new gameplay
20:22:29 <planetmaker> the baby had to have a name :-) And yes, you *can* do that
20:22:34 <andythenorth> of course, getting an achievement can be a goal, because the word goal is quite flexible in English
20:22:43 <planetmaker> but you can simply unlock nothing other than a wall of text.
20:22:52 <planetmaker> and a golden plastic crown
20:23:54 <V453000> man nuts would be so awesome with tech tree :D especially e.g. unlocking the kinds of bonus engines
20:24:14 <V453000> I cant think how would you evaluate when does a player get engine X (by what values), but yeah :D
20:24:17 <andythenorth> what causes progression along the tree?
20:24:33 <V453000> or time if talking within train class
20:25:03 <andythenorth> built 30 evil horse engines, get an evil zebra
20:25:10 <andythenorth> build 50 evil zebras, get a unicorn
20:25:37 <planetmaker> like that. Or transport Xtons of cargo Y in one year
20:25:45 <andythenorth> or travel 300,000 kilometers using evil zebras, get an evil giraffe
20:25:53 <planetmaker> Or grow a town to 5000 population (for express trains)
20:26:03 <V453000> something like that andy
20:26:09 <andythenorth> deliver x tons of steel to evil train plant
20:26:10 <V453000> perhaps with a time limit
20:26:35 <V453000> e.g. transport W amount of cargo X by engines Y, you get Z
20:26:37 <andythenorth> I think the forced isolation between newgrf and GS makes this...hard?
20:27:38 <andythenorth> it is interesting that the newgrf spec mostly developed in a foamer direction, not a gameplay direction
20:28:31 <andythenorth> the set I am doing with Dan is getting more and more gameplay focussed, and less and less about making a model train sim based on real world
20:28:32 <V453000> myeah, grf = grafix :P
20:28:35 <Eddi|zuHause> transport X cargos for next level, and then exponential growth of X
20:29:55 <andythenorth> I can't explain why, but I think hiding the real-world year would help this in some cases
20:30:09 <andythenorth> I also see why so many of you like toyland, after playing it with child #1 a lot
20:30:13 <andythenorth> I still hate it :P
20:30:21 <andythenorth> but yeah, it's more fun, not so much model trains
20:30:33 <Eddi|zuHause> civilization has a tech tree and a "real world year"
20:30:54 <Eddi|zuHause> never had a problem with launching the spaceship in 1850 :p
20:32:18 <andythenorth> but the dates are controlled by newgrf
20:32:34 <andythenorth> and newgrf is golden, may never be touched, may never be over-ridden lest an author complain
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20:32:43 <andythenorth> so what are we to do?
20:32:46 <andythenorth> it's a real puzzle
20:33:02 <andythenorth> the like of which is beyond minds like mine
20:33:34 <Eddi|zuHause> transform newgrf's year of introduction into a tech level
20:33:52 <andythenorth> and have the game manage that per player?
20:33:57 <andythenorth> or per company perhaps
20:34:01 <Eddi|zuHause> like vehicles introduced in 1920 cost 500 research points and vehicles in 1980 1 million
20:34:17 <andythenorth> oh so there's some integer that increases up from 0?
20:34:38 <andythenorth> and we could scale that against the default game, for those who want a boring real-world experience?
20:34:48 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, and you could focus on one engine which gets double points and all others half, or so
20:34:58 <andythenorth> and it's up to GS how tech level changes?
20:35:44 <andythenorth> wouldn't that also conveniently solve the utterly unrelated problems with randomised-per-model intro dates?
20:36:00 <andythenorth> (and model expiry)
20:36:51 <andythenorth> and afaik, most daylength requirements are about slowing down the rate of vehicle introduction?
20:37:01 <andythenorth> so this would solve daylength for some fraction of players
20:39:23 <planetmaker> that *would* be an interesting gameplay for sure :-)
20:39:44 <V453000> randomized intro dates are wtf anyway
20:39:54 <andythenorth> they're pretty much unworkable
20:39:55 <planetmaker> the GS could also introduce new industries etc depending on tech levels
20:40:06 <andythenorth> solving a whole load of specific date crap
20:40:21 <planetmaker> replacing it by specific tech level crap :D
20:40:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with that is that the newgrf must somehow define the tech levels
20:40:32 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise the GS can't do anything
20:40:45 <Eddi|zuHause> or whatever the GS is doing will suck
20:41:15 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: can't we just use an integer value, normalised against default TTD?
20:41:23 <andythenorth> 1950 in default game = 500 or whatever
20:41:41 <andythenorth> and newgrf just says 'this engine arrives at tech level 500'
20:41:46 <andythenorth> again normalised against default game
20:42:01 <andythenorth> we have to have some kind of baseline?
20:42:37 <andythenorth> btw when we play MP NoCarGoal or whatever, games are too short to care about dates and new vehicle introductions and stuff
20:42:52 <andythenorth> but still a NoCarGoal challenge (or high score league) could track tech levels
20:43:33 <andythenorth> and we could try playing with different newgrfs without needing an intimate knowledge of which ones introduce which vehicles when
20:44:08 <V453000> well yeah because you are lazy bastards and play too short games :P
20:44:33 <Eddi|zuHause> extended CETS with vehicle every 2 years :p
20:44:41 <andythenorth> anyway, this is all waffle, but in summary:
20:44:58 <andythenorth> - ottd can't go manipulating the game date, people will whine, industries will break etc
20:45:08 <andythenorth> - ottd can't currently over-ride newgrfs intro dates
20:45:12 <andythenorth> - so let's have an abstraction
20:45:26 <andythenorth> what can go wrong?
20:46:00 * andythenorth is going to the pub
20:46:08 <andythenorth> first decent pony idea in a while though :D
20:46:42 <andythenorth> maybe it will get worked out while I am away?
20:53:16 <jrambo> is there a way to hotkey buying vehicles, or if not, to implement that in the game?
20:57:36 <jrambo> there seems to be something in the hotkeys.cfg about it, but i cant get it to work :/
21:00:03 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds tricky, as you have to select a depot
21:01:08 <Eddi|zuHause> so you can't just put "GLOBAL+key" on a button
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