IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-10-15
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15:06:12 * planetmaker ponders introducing a new object property: amount placed upon map generation on a 256^2 map
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17:32:38 <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r25867 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2013-10-15 17:32:31 UTC)
17:32:39 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5764]: Shift dates on link graphs when using scenario editor date tool.
17:36:46 <DorpsGek> DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 21 hours, 40 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: <andythenorth> found it
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18:09:41 <frosch123> can you should people on the internet with that?
18:10:21 <Belugas> i should shout some sholders
18:18:51 <frosch123> i know a topic V could derail :)
18:23:11 <V453000> I am derailed alllll the time
18:23:46 * Belugas does not say what type of tracks...
18:49:11 * Supercheese would use a newobject property to place objects on map randomly, seagulls by default
18:49:46 <Supercheese> might also be nice to have some sort of callback or method to tell them to be placed near things like industries or towns
18:50:04 <Supercheese> for a pony wish :)
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18:51:11 * Belugas wonders... seeing a seagull in gme would mean it's a freaking big whale of a bird!
18:51:40 <andythenorth> self-building new objects? o_O
18:51:54 <Supercheese> at map gen, planetmaker mentioned it earlier
18:51:56 <andythenorth> fuck the GS route, it's an inadequate way to do it
18:52:08 <andythenorth> nah, needs to be on the monthly cb
18:52:28 <Pinkbeast> Seagulls would be a nice ambient noise
18:52:48 <Supercheese> Been there; done that
18:52:57 <Pinkbeast> ... but I guess the fishing harbour could just make the noise directly and now you can tell me it already does.
18:54:48 <andythenorth> grfcrawler must die :x
18:57:46 <frosch123> Supercheese: you have to decide for generation order, either industries or objects first :)
18:57:55 <frosch123> towns are definitely first though
19:03:57 <planetmaker> objects are not game crucial. last. As now
19:05:21 <au> hi, how to load a script ? :)
19:06:17 <andythenorth> is there a reason (I haven't thought of) that it has to be map-gen time, and not in the gameplay loop somewhere?
19:06:19 <planetmaker> au, from main menu: script / ai settings. Then generate a new map
19:06:47 <au> planetmaker: I mean in a console. exec script.scr makes ERROR: script file not found
19:06:51 <planetmaker> andythenorth, there's no reason. But ... map generation makes sense, no?
19:07:20 <au> planetmaker: even though pwd shows the directory is the right one and the file is present
19:08:21 <andythenorth> planetmaker: couple of thoughts (1) landscape evolving over time is interesting (2) industries open (and close)
19:08:40 <andythenorth> I missed some of the discussion, but I assume that objects would be able to try and locate near [something] ?
19:10:01 <planetmaker> andythenorth, objects have the usual capabilities. Up to the newgrf author
19:10:38 * andythenorth should read the spec :P
19:10:51 <planetmaker> au, did you try w/o file extension?
19:12:30 <au> planetmaker: yes, and funny to say ls doesn't show anything too :O
19:12:52 * andythenorth is interested in the age-old pony "extra stuff around FIRS industries"
19:13:00 <andythenorth> objects seems like the cleanest solution to that
19:13:23 <andythenorth> and giving industries the capability to build objects seems a bit unclean
19:13:51 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I think that should rather be an extension of the field idea :)
19:14:05 <andythenorth> is the field idea resurrected?
19:14:13 <andythenorth> last I knew, it was considered very dead
19:14:40 <planetmaker> well, no. But industries spawning objects, or objects checking for industry XY is... strange imho
19:14:57 <andythenorth> practical though...
19:15:04 <planetmaker> and imho it wasn't exactly shot dead. Rather died due to insufficient food supply
19:15:12 <andythenorth> frosch123 thoughts? o_O
19:16:29 <frosch123> i think industries spawning objects would be a cool thing
19:16:41 <frosch123> mostly for extracting industries
19:16:55 <frosch123> destroying the nature around them
19:17:01 <frosch123> and leaving pits behind
19:18:31 <planetmaker> hm. seen that way... maybe a good idea :-)
19:18:53 <andythenorth> can objects self-destroy? o_O
19:18:56 <frosch123> it's different from traditional fields though
19:19:06 <planetmaker> not necessarily much different
19:19:15 <planetmaker> depends on the object
19:19:22 <frosch123> most weird is how players clear those things
19:19:25 <frosch123> per tile or as whole
19:20:06 <andythenorth> as a whole I guess
19:20:23 <frosch123> hmm, one could also allow spawning objects on destruction
19:20:42 <frosch123> like leaving a crater behind :p
19:20:51 <planetmaker> right. you got me convinced :-)
19:21:13 <frosch123> anyway, might as well grow out of hand :p
19:21:31 <andythenorth> so how does it work? Specific cb? Or modify existing cbs to also allow spawning an object as part of result? o_O
19:21:32 <frosch123> if half of the map is covered with busted nuclear plants after 500 game years
19:21:47 <frosch123> i think there is a wiki page with a draft about it
19:21:58 <andythenorth> somewhere on froschwiki :P
19:22:14 <au> why does loading files from console doesn't work? :( is it a bug?
19:22:21 <frosch123> i think it's on the post-grf-v8-new-cb-results page
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19:22:55 <planetmaker> au, might be that they must be in the scripts dir
19:23:03 <planetmaker> is yours there and has the extension scr?
19:23:14 <au> planetmaker: which is a script dir?
19:23:46 <planetmaker> eh. The one where the example / default scripts are placed in?
19:23:54 <planetmaker> relative to your binary
19:25:34 <au> I run a binary from a compiled version
19:26:13 <planetmaker> well. Without compilation there's no binary.
19:26:53 <au> anyway, when I do ls in that directory, it shows it's empty :O
19:27:11 <au> it shows directories only, not files
19:28:19 <planetmaker> you know, currently I can only speculate as of your setup. Not a good thing. Nothing I fancy
19:29:13 <au> I made no setup changes at all
19:30:08 <frosch123> oh, there are pcs with preinstalled ottd?
19:30:17 <planetmaker> ... good. Still my crystal ball fails to show what your setup looks like
19:31:19 <planetmaker> OpenTTD version. OS version. place of config file. place of binary (did you use installer or downloaded it?)
19:32:14 <planetmaker> command you use to call openttd. command you tried in order to have your script executed
19:32:33 <au> 1.3.2 linux, I compiled it, bin is /home/au/tmp/original/bin/openttd
19:32:52 <au> config is ~/.openttd/openttd.cfg
19:33:52 <au> command to run openttd: just ./openttd ;)
19:34:08 <planetmaker> so your script is in ~/tmp/original/bin/script ?
19:34:09 <au> and trying to execute the script via exec in console
19:35:54 <au> my script is ~/tmp/original/bin/script/aaa.scr
19:36:10 <au> my script is ~/tmp/np2/original/bin/script/aaa.scr to be correct
19:36:40 <au> I did cd to the ~/tmp/np2/original/bin/script directory
19:36:49 <au> pwd to confirm it's the right one
19:37:27 <au> actually script file not found
19:38:13 <planetmaker> so... did you try to place it in ~/tmp/original/bin/script/aaa.scr ?
19:38:26 <au> when I do ls command it shows only "0)..(Parent dictionary)" even though there is 12 files
19:38:47 <au> planetmaker: it is exactly there
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19:43:17 <planetmaker> I've no clue with what you mean that it's there and not there
19:45:37 <planetmaker> did you simply try "exec aaa"?
19:52:12 <planetmaker> as said: try to place the file in the dir scripts are meant to be. Not something else which you need to cd into
19:52:42 <planetmaker> But honestly, I don't know. I guess I hardly ever use a script except a slight default one on player join
19:52:55 <planetmaker> which needs no manual execution
19:54:19 <au> the bad thing is these things are very poorly documented
19:55:20 <planetmaker> ask in the forums
19:55:34 <planetmaker> maybe someone uses them and knows
19:55:46 <au> when I run a new instance, the first pwd is ~/.openttd/save so is this one the deffault dictionary?
19:55:51 <frosch123> i think these scripts are unchanged since version 0.4
19:56:06 <frosch123> so, no active developer knows about them :)
19:56:51 <au> well I just wanna find out how to let ai play instead of me in a multiplayer.. lol.. thought this was thrugh these scripts
19:57:11 <planetmaker> well. That is something which we specifically do NOT support
19:57:47 <planetmaker> scripts acting in a human company in multiplayer
19:58:02 <Sturmi> stupid ai or stupid human player... where is the difference? :D
19:58:17 <planetmaker> AIs don't feel ashamed to be stupid
19:58:23 <planetmaker> nor mind being told so :-P
19:59:03 <au> can't I program AI to be really good? :O
19:59:42 <au> so I just wanna test it against real players
19:59:47 <planetmaker> but most AIs can be beaten economically
20:00:03 <planetmaker> au, yes... but you don't want those scripts for that
20:00:11 <planetmaker> start a multiplayer server and start an AI there
20:00:31 <planetmaker> an AI player cann noever be run via those kind of scripts you try to run there
20:00:35 <au> planetmaker: I wanted to do this on an already existing server
20:00:37 <planetmaker> those scripts have no such capability
20:00:54 <Alberth> it's much more productive to publish the AI and let people play against it in single player, I think
20:01:16 <planetmaker> oh, as admin you can run them on a server just fine, too
20:01:24 <planetmaker> though... I don't know anyone doing that
20:02:46 <au> is it possible to let ai do city building and huge railline nets? if so, it should deffinitly be better than human players
20:03:03 <planetmaker> what's "city building"?
20:03:21 <planetmaker> AIs can (or should be able) to do what a human player can do. Not more. Not less
20:03:45 <au> let a city grow on purpose..
20:04:57 <planetmaker> it's up to you what you tell the AI to do
20:05:31 <planetmaker> There's a couple of different one. with different focus...
20:06:01 <planetmaker> probably you can make a very decent one, if you do not re-invent the wheel everywhere, but if you build on what others have invented before. And improve that
20:06:48 <au> just simulate the behaviour of human players would be enough, I think
20:07:01 <au> of the best human players, of course
20:07:17 <Supercheese> how do you quantify "best"?
20:07:33 <planetmaker> :-) the usual question
20:07:49 <planetmaker> a very important one
20:08:09 <au> there's a 15 bilion server on btpro.. I wanna write AI that would beat the best human player so far
20:08:59 <au> that should be possible if the AI builds fast
20:10:34 <planetmaker> difficulty increases for AIs if playing against humans. Competition can be strong :-)
20:11:06 <au> that's why I wanna let it play instead of a user :P
20:11:21 <planetmaker> yes, on your own server: well feasible
20:11:28 <planetmaker> on others: it's not
20:11:48 <planetmaker> or only with rcon rights
20:11:52 <au> but why not on others? .. not for cheating, only for experimentation
20:12:00 <planetmaker> where's the difference?
20:12:09 <planetmaker> it's cheating if I play against you + your script
20:12:35 <au> if you play against the script and you know it, is it cheating?
20:12:51 <planetmaker> doing that on another server, no-one would know it.
20:13:30 <au> they would know if I told them ;)
20:14:16 <Sturmi> make your own server and invite players to compete against your ai.
20:14:17 <planetmaker> I'd perma-ban a person who tried on my servers
20:15:53 <planetmaker> scripts in human companies are general a fun killer. There'd be nothing to stop people using them for whatever. Then the people with the better script have an advantage. That's not fair. However you make it
20:16:00 <planetmaker> so no scripts in human companies
20:17:01 <planetmaker> that was discussed in great length when the current AI framework was implemented
20:18:09 <au> I guess this is like saying that all drivers in Formula 1 should have the same cars so that richer teams are not in advantage ;)
20:18:56 <Sturmi> cant compare it like this
20:19:26 <planetmaker> as said: you're free to run an AI on your server or servers where you have rcon. In their own company
20:19:33 <planetmaker> which everyone will be able to see as AI company
20:20:04 <planetmaker> it's not that it's unfair or anything. It's fair competition
20:20:37 <au> I'd just make a competition where any scripts whatsoever are allowed ;)
20:20:58 <planetmaker> make a competition AI vs AIs.
20:21:06 <planetmaker> there's also various such threads in our forums
20:21:14 <planetmaker> they can be quite interesting
20:21:27 <au> no it's not boring, building lots and lots of lines manually is boring
20:21:28 <Sturmi> reminds me of the movie "war games" :D
20:22:04 <planetmaker> so, play the AI game. Publish your AI. Make others play with it. You'll then get feedback on how it performs
20:22:22 <au> ok we'll see, give me few months ;)
21:01:09 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, kamnet has found the magic of animated gifs
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21:49:40 <Eddi|zuHause> "Hans Riegel, founder of Haribo died aged 90"
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23:01:36 <planetmaker> so... object placement on map creation? :D
23:13:11 <Supercheese> Just randomly places them, no way to tell objects to be near things?
23:13:54 <Riaku> ok, probably a stupid newbie question, but how cna you install mods on a dedicated server? been fooling around with this for a few days, and any mention of manual install tells me to use a gui... not so manual
23:14:19 <planetmaker> Supercheese, the normal placement callback is used. So the usual placement rules apply
23:14:39 <planetmaker> thus make it what it should be. Your task :-P
23:15:01 <planetmaker> Riaku, rcon content is your friend
23:16:19 <Riaku> yup, i discovered the content command
23:16:26 <Riaku> ended up installing everything :/
23:16:43 <Riaku> oh im nto worried about that.
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23:17:32 <Supercheese_> Internet asploded
23:17:32 <Riaku> that's about as far as i get
23:18:23 <planetmaker> Supercheese, the normal placement callback is used. So the usual placement rules apply. You define via NewGRF where things can be placed (if you should have missed the comment)
23:18:46 <planetmaker> Riaku, single downloads work by using content select ID. And content state is helpful to define which
23:18:58 <planetmaker> and before that a content update
23:19:41 <planetmaker> but really, on a dedi server... just content update; content select all; content download. easy. simple
23:19:42 <Supercheese_> Object var 44 (owner) should allow me to distinguish between a player placing an object vs. the map gen placing the object, right?
23:19:46 <planetmaker> unless bandwidth is a problem
23:19:51 <Riaku> i get the downloads, but enabling an actual mod, i am lost with, i've attempted editing "a" config file, (apparently on debian, running a server as root won't generate a config file in the root directory, not sure where it pulls things from
23:20:11 <Riaku> so i've been directing it with ./openttd -D -c openttd.cfg
23:20:15 <Supercheese_> Righto, think I know what to do
23:20:30 <planetmaker> oh, don't run openttd as root. Or anything :-)
23:20:43 <Riaku> i get that's a bad idea... but damn >.> no config
23:20:43 <planetmaker> Supercheese, but not yet in trunk, so... :-)
23:21:08 <planetmaker> Riaku, ~/.openttd/openttd.cfg is only generated when you exit openttd
23:21:21 <Riaku> exited it many times :p
23:21:39 <planetmaker> root... might create it next to the binary. which might be bad
23:22:06 <planetmaker> what does 'locate openttd.cfg' tell you?
23:22:33 *** Supercheese_ is now known as Supercheese
23:23:00 <Riaku> actually.. view hidden lol
23:23:09 <Riaku> .openttd, didn't realise it was hidden
23:23:16 <planetmaker> anyway... do yourself the favour, create a non-root user. And use that
23:23:47 <planetmaker> configuring games on a dedicated server... yes, edit openttd.cfg. But much easier to upload a savegame and start that
23:23:48 <Riaku> yeah. i know, im just lazy, set this up for a few friends
23:24:16 <planetmaker> a lazyness you might pay a very high price for...
23:24:23 <planetmaker> setting up a user is cheap and quick
23:25:49 <planetmaker> useradd -d -D -m --passwordPASSWORD
23:26:08 <planetmaker> maybe also --shell/bin/bash
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