IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-10-12
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07:20:40 <Thurak> would trucks/planes be good for an initial startup? to get enough money for buying some rails
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07:31:18 <planetmaker> Thurak, yes. yes. and trains would do, too. Or ships.
07:32:07 <Thurak> with the starting 100k, or 300k if you borrow extra, wouldnt be enough for a long track
07:32:14 <Thurak> tho i suppose i could do a smaller one
07:32:52 <Alberth> very long ones are not so interesting to build imho
07:33:50 <Alberth> they make a lot of money, but that's not a very interesting property, as you'll swim in it soon enough :)
07:34:16 <Thurak> i like the long fast flattened ones :P
07:34:31 <juzza1> i only build trains, and usually start with a short-ish "money maker" cargo train
07:34:44 <juzza1> then build longer rails later on
07:35:33 <Alberth> if you build on non-flat terrain, and leave the terrain mostly alone, it's much more challenging to build tracks.
07:35:57 <Alberth> The "flatten everything and build a long straight track" is so easy :)
07:36:32 <Thurak> but ill be using vacuum tracks, so up to 4100kmh :P
07:37:11 <Alberth> it's just a number :)
07:38:58 <Thurak> shh, im 19 and im supposed to like big numbers in games
07:40:35 <V453000> number which causes the train run so fast that you can barely see it sounds rather dumb though :)
07:40:48 <__ln__> Thurak: you mean: i'll, im
07:41:17 <planetmaker> Thurak, the starting money is enough for me to start rail services
07:41:36 <planetmaker> not from one edge to the next. But medium distance (100 tiles or so)
07:41:43 <planetmaker> good enough for decent money gain
07:41:55 <planetmaker> like juzza said :-)
07:42:22 <planetmaker> and yes. I never terraform terrain :-)
07:42:22 <V453000> I start with trains and then continue with trains
07:42:31 <V453000> sometimes I mix some trains in
07:42:48 <V453000> you dont need to terraform at all for the first few years really :)
07:43:19 <planetmaker> nor actually in the later years
07:43:30 <planetmaker> well. slightly for largish stations or for some elaborate hubs
07:43:39 <planetmaker> but only tile by tile as it's strictly needed
07:43:45 <planetmaker> makes things also look nicer. IMHO
07:45:42 <V453000> ofc just a few tiles :)
07:46:02 <V453000> but I usually expand to LL_RR after around 4 years, that is when a few tiles are usually necessary
07:46:38 <V453000> could generalize that to "tf is needed in first expanding" :P
07:52:53 <planetmaker> yeah. Where 'needed' is a rather chewing gum definition ;-)
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08:58:20 <andythenorth> I tried to reproduce some of the OS X bugs
08:58:33 <andythenorth> but they require old old old OS X versions :(
08:58:43 <andythenorth> and they don't look particularly reliable to reproduce
09:02:15 <andythenorth> one of them reports for 10.4 on a G3
09:02:34 <andythenorth> that's an 8 year old operating system, on a chip which hasn't been available in a new mac for 10 years
09:03:15 <Alberth> that's one way to solve bugs :p
09:03:53 <andythenorth> I look at it this way
09:04:02 <andythenorth> is anybody going to fix it, before the heat death of the universe?
09:05:00 <andythenorth> if you buy a mac and run OS X on it, you've implicitly or explicitly bought into rapid obsolescence
09:05:17 <andythenorth> so why expect old-version support from open source projects?
09:05:34 <andythenorth> if you don't like it, run linux on your PPC, or get VirtualBox for intel macs
09:07:46 <andythenorth> or go buy a dell :)
09:08:47 <__ln__> andythenorth: openttd only supports old OS X versions, not the newer ones explicitly.
09:10:39 <andythenorth> although fonso has been working on it :)
09:12:23 * andythenorth has a trigger-happy approach to closing bugs as "won't fix"
09:13:46 <__ln__> but why the f would that one be a wontfix, as it is even reproducible, and happens on a platform that is well supported by openttd.
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09:14:42 <andythenorth> what does supported mean
09:16:41 <__ln__> if you ask people responsible of the builds, they will tell that ppc was never the problem, only intel.
09:17:16 <andythenorth> why fix bugs for a dead cpu platform though?
09:17:23 <andythenorth> seems like a waste of effort
09:17:27 <andythenorth> unless it's interesting :)
09:18:38 <__ln__> it's obviously not dead, as people are reporting bugs in 2013 and others debugging the bugs in 2013.
09:18:48 <andythenorth> they're mac users
09:18:58 <andythenorth> if they want long-lasting support, they should buy a different OS
09:19:12 * andythenorth isn't trying to start an argument :)
09:19:16 <andythenorth> it's just a point of view
09:19:28 <andythenorth> different OS / hardware /s
09:20:10 <__ln__> i'm not sure if RedHat Enterprise Linux is available for G3/G4.
09:21:02 <__ln__> andythenorth: btw, OS X 10.4 is several years newer than Windows XP.
09:21:23 <andythenorth> I got the impression that MS offer longer-lasting support
09:21:34 <andythenorth> might be wrong, didn't check the dates
09:21:56 <__ln__> true, XP is still supported for a few months. but even they don't offer support for OpenTTD.
09:22:24 <andythenorth> my point is more about the ethics of the platform
09:22:36 <andythenorth> open source has a general ethos of long lasting support
09:22:46 <andythenorth> but the hardware / OS vendor attitudes vary wildly
09:23:04 <andythenorth> and the expectations of users ought to be matched to the hardware / OS vendor they bought
09:23:16 <andythenorth> mac users who expect long lasting support are a bit naive
09:24:02 <andythenorth> anyway, to change the discussion, I can't repro any of the reported OS X bugs with the system I have in front of me :P
09:24:28 <__ln__> andythenorth: you're mistaken. if by open source you mean e.g. Linux, how many distros released in mid-2005 (same time as OS X 10.4) are still supported?
09:26:39 <__ln__> RHEL 4, released in 2005, actually is in some "extended life cycle" phase until 2015. i doubt there are others.
09:27:25 <andythenorth> every day is a school day
09:27:47 <andythenorth> so for a recent RHEL, how far back might hardware support go?
09:29:38 <__ln__> minimum ram for RHEL6 installer is probably 512MB if not even 1GB. that sets some limits.
09:31:15 <andythenorth> also I just upgraded my wife's 10.7 mac to 10.8 :x, so I can't try any of the 10.7.x bugs either :(
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09:40:51 <planetmaker> andythenorth, the interesting thing about ppc support is that it's the "test platform" for big endian (all others are little endian) processors
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09:55:58 <fonsinchen> The ICU binary is broken for PPC
09:59:08 <fonsinchen> Either we have to compile without ICU for PPC or we have to compile ICU properly. The last time I tried ICU wouldn't compile on 10.4/PPC.
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10:23:35 <Eddi|zuHause> ... or we drop PPC support :)
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10:31:58 <bon> heh I don't have much to say other than this being exactly why I like things like ogl etc..they still can be written for one generation but still function just fine on other prior generation cards too
10:38:59 <fonsinchen> We should just build two versions for OSX: 10.3 - 10.4 PPC and 10.4+ universal. For 10.4 PPC the pure PPC build should be used. Then we can build the PPC version without ICU and everyone will be happy.
10:39:14 <fonsinchen> (Except for the guy who has to set up all that mess on the CF)
10:42:19 <bon> mm I'll be inclined to say that 10.3-10.4 restriction sounds good. <=10.2 was always a bit too early and buggy (whatever ran that could run 10.3 anyway)
10:46:29 <TinoDidriksen> Why bother with <= 10.4 at all? Anyone still running that?
10:48:22 <bon> tino its mainly to do with restore cd versions but also from hardcoded "hardware check" limits at times too
10:48:47 <bon> theres other reasons too but not that I've personally seen them so much here yet
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10:54:58 <bon> tino I did a quick check. indeed 10.5 doesn't support several cpus
10:56:16 <bon> interesting article there. I like the parallelism remarks
10:59:53 <andythenorth> c2 wiki is always good value
11:10:02 <bon> heh hey eddi I know its old but looking at the log I see you refered to the bayerische gt 2x4/4 .. thats one of the few favorite german steam locomotives of mine :p
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11:48:07 <peter1138> Hmm, I read @base as abuse :S
11:48:34 <frosch123> abuse would be using octal
12:12:50 <andythenorth> what's it all about eh?
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12:29:58 <peter1138> So singleton or static class?
12:30:44 <Wolf01> singleton, for example I found static classes in PHP are totally shit
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12:43:51 <peter1138> Fortunately I'm not using PHP :)
13:01:05 <andythenorth> you might find you need more than one :P
13:01:13 <andythenorth> margin or padding?
13:03:08 <frosch123> how to test a patch past compilation?
13:07:16 <Thurak> wow found a newGRF for 1850 trains
13:08:25 <planetmaker> frosch123, which patch?
13:08:42 <frosch123> but it crashes loading the title screen
13:08:49 <frosch123> obnoxious savegame conversion :)
13:09:09 <peter1138> That's a lot of trains.
13:09:23 <planetmaker> peter1138, game year maybe?
13:09:26 <andythenorth> @calc 1850 / 150
13:09:26 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 12.3333333333
13:10:12 <Thurak> North american renewal set
13:10:27 <Thurak> trains for 1850 to 2050
13:11:04 <andythenorth> silly old andythenorth
13:11:13 <andythenorth> I thought you meant it has 1850 trains in it
13:12:09 <Alberth> or it can hold 1850 trains :p
13:13:04 <Thurak> hmm this one sounds useful
13:13:18 <Thurak> progressive rail set, makes upgrading rails easier
13:13:49 <Thurak> electric can run on monorail, and monorail can run on maglev
13:17:06 <Alberth> so boring, why not make new tracks instead of upgrading existing ones?
13:18:00 <Thurak> upgrade the old, and make new
13:21:36 <V453000> go use universal rails :)
13:22:53 <Thurak> are there any truch newGRFs for 1850 or so
13:23:32 <Thurak> also that makes me start to wonder when would the first trucks have been made
13:23:40 <andythenorth> for mass productions
13:23:52 <andythenorth> try HEQS and egrvts together
13:24:09 <Thurak> arent trams more like rails
13:24:40 <planetmaker> well. In the game they're more like roads
13:24:51 <Thurak> is that a typo? it says 1980-2070
13:24:56 <Thurak> but then says horse drawn carriages
13:25:33 <frosch123> does someone here have a savegame with tons of new objects?
13:26:08 <frosch123> (as in, not only loaded newgrf, but also on the map)
13:26:23 <planetmaker> hm... I guess I don't :-(
13:26:35 <planetmaker> But I think I know where you come from :D
13:27:05 <planetmaker> more different objects, or could it be the same?
13:27:52 <frosch123> wasn't there someone filling the map with dutch road furniture?
13:28:04 <frosch123> or should i search for a drag&drop buy land patch?
13:32:10 <Thurak> think ill start a game on very rough and mountainous now
13:32:29 <frosch123> very rough usually looks boring
13:32:49 <Thurak> what would be a good one to use
13:33:08 <frosch123> mountainious and low variety distribution is a good start
13:33:32 <Thurak> medium roughness, so smooth?
13:34:22 <frosch123> also higher water levels (30% or so) can somehow improve map structure
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13:34:27 <frosch123> though it's kind of weird
13:35:28 <Thurak> ok that looks pretty good
13:39:55 <Thurak> oh my, i could start in 1700
13:40:14 <peter1138> I had a better map generator once...
13:40:34 <Thurak> tho once i get the stuff from 1700, it takes 130 years before i get anything new
13:40:58 <frosch123> Thurak: make sure to disable inflation
13:41:22 <frosch123> noone starting in 1800 has so far managed to reach 19xx without bankrupting
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13:41:48 <Thurak> shouldnt your income also increace with inflation
13:41:49 <planetmaker> try and find out :D
13:41:50 <frosch123> because expenses increase faster than income wrt. inflation
13:42:05 <frosch123> which bankrupts you if technology does not improve at the same rate
13:42:50 <Thurak> also with that inflation.. what would things be costing
13:43:21 <Thurak> 1700 to 2000 at 2% per year, £1 goes to £308
13:45:08 <frosch123> hmm, wiki does not even list a drag buy land patch :/
13:49:05 <Thurak> now... 1700 start, this might be interesting
13:49:22 <andythenorth> starting early is really slow :)
13:49:28 <andythenorth> but don't let me spoil it :)
13:49:37 <Thurak> wel i know transport speed is going to be slow
13:49:43 <andythenorth> just be prepared to make a lot of coffee while you wait for deliveries
13:50:30 <Sturmi> that would need a new industry chain for coffee
13:51:43 * frosch123 hardcodes that purchaseing land is only possible in batches of 256x200 tiles
14:01:25 <frosch123> hmm, triggered an assertion when blitter switched in game :s
14:02:11 <frosch123> deadlocked draw mutex or so
14:07:28 <Thurak> well im making a profit, tho it is pretty small..
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14:19:33 <Thurak> usefull.. i have 2 sawmills right next to each other
14:19:38 <Thurak> they are touching on the corners
14:20:06 <planetmaker> can be. If you ship more wood to the station than one saw mill can process in a month
14:23:03 <Thurak> i wasnt planning on shipping the goods somewhere after
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14:34:45 <Thurak> why is the value of my passengers degresing
14:34:53 <Thurak> before it was 300 or so at the end of the trip, now its less
14:35:26 <planetmaker> payment is only determined upon delivery. You're too slow for the distance :-)
14:36:10 <Thurak> but the time and distance is the same as it was before
14:36:33 <Thurak> before when i looked at the info sheet it said the value was almost 700 for my first one
14:40:00 <Thurak> oh its the value of the truck >.<
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14:51:44 <Thurak> are advanced settigns set when you start a game or can you change in the middle
14:52:40 <FLHerne> Thurak: Depends, most are changeable
14:52:55 <FLHerne> Thurak: Anything you can't change is greyed out
14:53:27 <FLHerne> You can't change stuff while an MP game is running, but you can load the save in SP, change settings, then rehost
14:53:42 <FLHerne> s/stuff/game-state-affecting stuff/
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15:46:21 <Eddi|zuHause> the mother of all anti-features :p
15:46:41 <zydeco> I can see that possibly being abused
15:46:54 <Thurak> when is it a good time to set full load any cargo
15:46:59 <Thurak> and when is it a bad time to do so
15:47:51 <zydeco> maybe a train with the same space for grain and livestock loading at a farm
15:48:24 <Thurak> well atm im only moving pasengers in trams
15:48:31 <Thurak> horse trams, fastest are about 20mph
15:48:42 <Eddi|zuHause> good: if your train carries 300 wood and 8 mail, and the station near the forest doesn't provide mail. bad: if your train carries 300 wood and 8 mail, and the station near the forest provides mail
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15:50:02 <Thurak> well currently i have it set, and one of the stations cant provide enough to fill them
15:50:05 <Thurak> and the other is overflowing
15:50:21 <Thurak> is there a way to change lots of trams at once to full load at the overflowing one only?
15:50:36 <Eddi|zuHause> you generalls yon't use full load for symmetric cargos like passengers
15:51:24 <Alberth> it won't take long before there are more passengers than you can handle :p
15:51:39 <zydeco> if you have vehicles doing the same things, it would be convenient to use shared orders
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15:52:00 <Alberth> they all take and bring stuff?
15:52:38 <zydeco> but if the station already provides more passengers than you can handle, you don't need a full load order
15:52:38 <Thurak> then i need a way to stagger my trams
15:52:46 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: is it possible you're lacking a font for japanese town names?
15:52:55 <Thurak> atm i have this massive bunch up of 20, and the rest of the track is empty
15:53:40 <zydeco> you can make them stop at a station for a given amount of days or ticks
15:53:55 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: keen eye, i wondered whether someone would notice
15:53:57 <zydeco> so they won't leave early even if there's nothing to load
15:54:08 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, it's chinese
15:54:37 <zydeco> or forget everything about it and never mention it again
15:54:50 <Alberth> frosch123: we were so very much overwhelmed by your wealthy possessions :)
15:54:53 <Thurak> would i have to set timetables for each tram?
15:55:13 <zydeco> yes, unless they share orders
15:55:26 <zydeco> if the orders are shared, so is the timetable
15:56:01 <Thurak> i have about 100 trams ...
15:56:05 <Thurak> and i was going to make quite a few more
15:56:13 <Thurak> since they have tiny capacity and cheap cost
15:56:18 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: you can combine the cost into one animation, you know :p
15:56:21 <Alberth> frosch123: a little dent in the bank account :p
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15:57:15 <planetmaker> zydeco, what's that patch? The brown stuff? Emitted by vehicles?
15:57:37 <zydeco> no, that's the usual realistic diesel smoke
15:58:00 <zydeco> look at the sides the busses drive on
15:58:00 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: not in the hackish way i did it :p
15:58:16 <frosch123> otoh, may method might be multiplayer compatible
15:59:49 <Thurak> i guess timetables work better with trains as you dont need to set so many
16:01:58 <planetmaker> you know shared orders and automatic timetable separation, yes/no?
16:02:23 <Thurak> nope, i havent been playing for that long
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16:17:07 <Thurak> nice thing with wait for full is i can just make one, clone it 30 times, then start all of them at once from the depot
16:17:39 <zydeco> if you use control-clic when you clone it, they will have shared orders
16:17:49 <zydeco> so any change in their orders or timetables, will happen on all
16:19:50 <Thurak> when i normally clone stuff they have the same orders
16:20:05 <Thurak> if i tell it to go to london (fill all), all clones will be told to do the same
16:23:09 <zydeco> so then you don't have to set timetables for each
16:23:42 <zydeco> you can just tell them to stop at the station for a number of days, and stop them manually to space them
16:24:34 <__ln__> zydeco: the singular of bus is bus, and the plural is buses.
16:24:57 <zydeco> it will not happen again
16:25:36 <Eddi|zuHause> well it would be awkward if the plural were bussi :p
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16:29:47 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25830 trunk/src/object_gui.cpp (2013-10-12 16:29:42 UTC)
16:29:48 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5742] (r25540): In BuildObjectWindow, ensure the object spec matrix is always initialized. (sbr)
16:30:11 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25831 trunk/src/newgrf_object.h (2013-10-12 16:30:05 UTC)
16:30:12 <DorpsGek> -Change: Increase the object class limit from 32 to 255. (sbr)
16:30:28 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25832 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2013-10-12 16:30:22 UTC)
16:30:29 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Reduce variety of object type test functions.
16:30:48 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25833 /trunk (10 files in 3 dirs) (2013-10-12 16:30:42 UTC)
16:30:48 <peter1138> 32 was the old drop down list limit :-)
16:30:49 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Move ObjectType from map array into pool item.
16:31:39 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25834 /trunk/src (newgrf.cpp object_type.h) (2013-10-12 16:31:31 UTC)
16:31:40 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Use NUM_OBJECTS_PER_GRF instead of NUM_OBJECTS to properly distinguish limits per NewGRF and limits of the pool.
16:31:41 <DorpsGek> -Change: [NewGRF] Lower the limit of object types per NewGRF from 256 to 255 to prevent usage of ID 0xFF in Action3, and thus allowing it to become an extended byte somewhen.
16:32:01 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25835 /trunk/src (object_cmd.cpp object_type.h) (2013-10-12 16:31:55 UTC)
16:32:02 <DorpsGek> -Change: Increase the total number of object types from 256 to 64000.
16:32:21 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25836 /trunk/src (industry_type.h newgrf.cpp) (2013-10-12 16:32:16 UTC)
16:32:22 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Use NUM_INDUSTRYTYPES_PER_GRF instead of NUM_INDUSTRYTYPES to properly distinguish limits per NewGRF and limits of the pool.
16:33:05 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25837 /trunk/src (industry_type.h newgrf.cpp) (2013-10-12 16:32:59 UTC)
16:33:06 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Use NUM_INDUSTRYTILES_PER_GRF instead of NUM_INDUSTRYTILES to properly distinguish limits per NewGRF and limits of the pool.
16:33:07 <DorpsGek> -Change: [NewGRF] Lower the limit of industry tile types per NewGRF from 256 to 255 to prevent usage of ID 0xFF in Action3, and thus allowing it to become an extended byte somewhen.
16:33:25 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25838 /trunk/src (6 files) (2013-10-12 16:33:19 UTC)
16:33:26 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Rename HOUSE_MAX to NUM_HOUSES.
16:34:10 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25839 /trunk/src (house.h newgrf.cpp) (2013-10-12 16:34:04 UTC)
16:34:11 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Use NUM_HOUSES_PER_GRF instead of NUM_HOUSES to properly distinguish limits per NewGRF and limits of the pool.
16:34:12 <DorpsGek> -Change: [NewGRF] Lower the limit of house types per NewGRF from 256 to 255 to prevent usage of ID 0xFF in Action3, and thus allowing it to become an extended byte somewhen.
16:34:28 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25840 /trunk/src (airport.h newgrf.cpp) (2013-10-12 16:34:23 UTC)
16:34:29 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Use NUM_AIRPORTS_PER_GRF instead of NUM_AIRPORTS to properly distinguish limits per NewGRF and limits of the pool.
16:34:32 <SpComb> good things come in batches
16:35:01 <FLHerne> Oh, finally those NewObject patches got trunked :-)
16:35:07 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25841 /trunk/src (airport.h newgrf.cpp) (2013-10-12 16:34:59 UTC)
16:35:08 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Use NUM_AIRPORTTILES_PER_GRF instead of NUM_AIRPORTTILES to properly distinguish limits per NewGRF and limits of the pool.
16:35:09 <DorpsGek> -Change: [NewGRF] Lower the limit of airport tile types per NewGRF from 256 to 255 to prevent usage of ID 0xFF in Action3, and thus allowing it to become an extended byte somewhen.
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16:35:23 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25842 trunk/src/newgrf.cpp (2013-10-12 16:35:18 UTC)
16:35:24 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Rename MAX_STATIONS to NUM_STATIONS_PER_GRF.
16:35:37 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25843 trunk/src/newgrf_station.cpp (2013-10-12 16:35:32 UTC)
16:35:38 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Rename MAX_SPECLIST to NUM_STATIONSSPECS_PER_STATION.
16:35:43 <LordAro> how long have you been saving these up frosch123? :)
16:35:55 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25844 /trunk (6 files in 3 dirs) (2013-10-12 16:35:50 UTC)
16:35:56 <DorpsGek> -Change: Increase maximum number of object instances on the map from 64k to about 16M.
16:36:30 <frosch123> LordAro: first two are from sbr, one month old
16:36:40 <frosch123> next 3 i wrote wednesday or so
16:37:05 <FLHerne> frosch123: I was wondering when those first ones would get in. Crashed me game :-(
16:38:52 <frosch123> don't use it near the map border though, or it will crash
16:40:43 <Eddi|zuHause> needs an if(invalid tile) break;
16:41:01 <Eddi|zuHause> and some more magic for the other map border
16:41:21 <Eddi|zuHause> or, do it properly in the docommand :p
16:41:46 <LordAro> now, i think you should go and give cirdan some love - he's published his patch queue, and as far as i can see, at least the first 80ish are useful without implementing the rest
16:43:30 <zydeco> how do patch reviews work?
16:44:16 <planetmaker> you do that quite alright. You post in the bug tracker and remind us :D
16:44:42 <zydeco> ah, I hadn't reminded anyone :P
16:45:00 <planetmaker> irc is the proper medium for review really
16:45:39 <frosch123> zydeco: any reason you use quarters instead of months?
16:45:49 <zydeco> it's what the update packet uses
16:47:48 <zydeco> I just copied the lines from ServerNetworkAdminSocketHandler::SendCompanyUpdate
16:48:36 <planetmaker> I wonder how clients react which implement the old packet format
16:48:49 <frosch123> LordAro: well, then separate those you think are useful
16:48:51 <Thurak> right, its not 1752... starting to wish i didnt have to wait 130 years till the next unlock
16:49:31 <planetmaker> Thurak, cheat the date
16:49:39 <zydeco> well, if the packet has more data than they expect, they should ignore it
16:50:09 <zydeco> the packet already has its full size, so it won't get mixed up with the next
16:53:31 <dihedral> i can do with your help :-)
16:55:57 <dihedral> planetmaker, with an exception for the line only containing whitespaces :-P
16:56:26 <dihedral> i would like to compare it to the code already being used
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16:58:38 <dihedral> seeing as we did say we would not change the protocol, only append to the end of packets
16:58:55 <planetmaker> ^ ok, that's what I was worried about
17:00:14 <Thurak> well the bright side of starting in 1700 is by the time i get my first trains ill have massive citys for t hem
17:00:31 <dihedral> i do not know why my json code is not being accepted, when i am using the example from zuu
17:03:20 <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r25845 trunk/src/network/network_admin.cpp (2013-10-12 17:03:15 UTC)
17:03:21 <DorpsGek> -Add [FS#5756]: [Admin] Send info on bankruptcy quarters also in ADMIN_PACKET_SERVER_COMPANY_INFO (zydeco)
17:04:57 <dihedral> where is zuu when you need him :-(
17:05:52 <dihedral> does anybody here have experience with the adminport / gamscript json communication?
17:06:14 <zydeco> I was writing and admin tool, but didn't implement any of the json stuff because I didn't understand it
17:06:18 <planetmaker> Taede, might as well. And some others who hide :D
17:06:34 <zydeco> although now that I've seen that project, I'll look into it
17:07:20 <dihedral> zydeco, you like java?
17:07:43 <zydeco> no, but I use it sometimes
17:09:00 <dihedral> i would not mind a helping hand with my bot :-P
17:11:44 <dihedral> grapes.openttdcoop.org
17:12:03 <zydeco> oh, I've seen that before
17:12:34 <dihedral> it is modular, works with plugins as jar files
17:12:59 <LordAro> frosch123: i think i will :)
17:13:24 <LordAro> as far as i can tell, the first 241-ish patches are entirely unrelated to the map array changes
17:13:32 <LordAro> and some of them can be merged
17:13:54 <LordAro> what would be your preferred medium for a huge list of patches?
17:14:08 <LordAro> archived folder, rather
17:14:21 <planetmaker> easiest is when patches can be reviewed directly using a browser, thus not archived
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17:14:43 <planetmaker> maybe additionally for checking compilation / building / testing
17:15:18 <Alberth> I am sure someone can unpack them at a browsable location :)
17:16:07 <planetmaker> but he asked for "preferred" :D
17:17:47 <zydeco> isn't the correct spelling "extension", not "extention"?
17:19:24 <dihedral> no wonder i always needed the ide to help me out :-D
17:20:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i find evidence of both spellings in dictionaries
17:20:12 <planetmaker> same thing in green
17:20:22 <dihedral> Xaroth, did you not do some json stuff?
17:23:03 <LordAro> planetmaker: while it won't take too long, i think i'll get a functional patch queue first :)
17:23:39 <planetmaker> well, the latter is also a patch queue ;-)
17:24:28 <zydeco> I'll take a look at grapes in the future
17:27:54 <Thurak> right, i have 2 citys at 25k people each, they are close enough to each other they are starting to connect, if i set a rail station in the middle would it get passengers from both
17:29:23 <Thurak> pitty i wont have rails for another 100 years tho, by which time demolishing space will make them very mad
17:29:29 <andythenorth> it gets whatever is in the catchment
17:29:36 <andythenorth> you can station walk for bigger catchments
17:29:39 <Xaroth|Work> put down land claims?
17:30:00 <dihedral> Xaroth|Work, do you have a little bit of experience regarding the json stuff?
17:30:09 <planetmaker> landscaping toolbar -> buy lands
17:30:10 <Xaroth|Work> dihedral: define "json stuff" ?
17:30:35 <dihedral> admin port to game script
17:30:45 <dihedral> aparently 'data' is empty
17:31:07 <dihedral> and i am using the examples Zuu provides in his readme.txt
17:31:15 <Xaroth|Work> that doesn't look like json
17:31:31 <Xaroth|Work> '{action:ping,number:5}' should be '{"action":"ping","number":5}'
17:32:06 <planetmaker> oh... that sounds familiar from the stuff I use to talk to jenkins :D
17:32:24 <Xaroth|Work> and you can always try it with libottdadmin2 , it should work
17:32:32 <Xaroth|Work> as long as your json is properly formatted
17:33:43 <Thurak> do you have to buy land 1 tile at a time
17:33:44 <dihedral> thank you Xaroth|Work :-)
17:33:49 <Thurak> i cant seem to drag...
17:35:05 <Thurak> derp.. thats why, wrong tool
17:35:18 <planetmaker> yes, you can only buy it one by one
17:36:10 <Thurak> ok, i still had the wrong tool tho :P
17:41:07 <zydeco> I should release my ruby admin library too
17:41:29 <Thurak> can airports be rotated
17:43:41 <planetmaker> no. yes, if you use the NewGRF OpenGFX+Airports
17:43:56 <planetmaker> Or any other airport NewGRF which supports it. Which afaik doesn't exist ;-)
17:45:46 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25846 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-10-12 17:45:37 UTC)
17:45:47 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:48 <DorpsGek> english_US - 4 changes by Supercheese
17:45:49 <DorpsGek> greek - 31 changes by Evropi
17:45:50 <DorpsGek> spanish - 3 changes by Terkhen
18:05:00 <frosch123> LordAro: no, don't do the whole queue
18:05:06 <frosch123> make batches of 10 or so
18:05:26 <frosch123> that saves you from work, in case noone is interested in the result
18:05:44 <frosch123> and it also allows to give feedback in the middle, and change the process
18:06:12 <frosch123> if you make a queue of 500 patches, and then dump them for review, you have already lost
18:06:24 <frosch123> what if at patch 10 something shall be changed?
18:06:44 <frosch123> do small steps, that helps everyone
18:07:23 <planetmaker> we're not linux kernel hackers :D
18:07:51 <LordAro> well, i only (initially, i guess :p) will touch the first 240-ish patches in his queue
18:08:16 <planetmaker> does he have a repo?
18:08:19 <LordAro> but yes, i shall try to do something like that
18:08:26 <planetmaker> or is it all the zip'ed patch queues?
18:08:32 <LordAro> i have a feeling he does, but i can't find it linked anywhere
18:09:01 <planetmaker> ok, then it's not me :-)
18:09:25 <LordAro> i do seem to have a memory of exploring his git repo in a browser, but that could've been michi-cc's :p
18:17:51 <Zuu> dihedral: Hello, let me read back what you said :-)
18:19:19 <Zuu> dihedral: The JSON code in my readme.txt is actually not valid JSON. It use the Squirrel object syntax rather than correct JSON.
18:20:13 <planetmaker> that's evil, Zuu ;-)
18:21:48 <Zuu> I sort of assumed that you would use a JSON builder rather than writing the json string by hand.
18:22:16 <Zuu> dihedral: If you like, I can send you my test client for Joan
18:31:03 <Snail> ok, that's something that affects my set as well
18:31:25 <frosch123> current response time on fs is around 2 months or so
18:31:56 <frosch123> there are lke 68 tasks or so
18:34:57 <LordAro> damn, i don't have anywhere to store these patches
18:35:07 <LordAro> at least, in an easily viewable form
18:35:30 <LordAro> recommended places, anyone?
18:35:44 <frosch123> disk full or what? :p
18:35:52 <Zuu> I have now updated the readme of ServerGS to use correct JSON that validates OK.
18:36:26 <LordAro> although, my website hosting thing seems to be complaining of a full disk, despite me only using ~30MB :L
18:36:52 <LordAro> nope, just removed some stuff, with the same result :L
18:37:09 <LordAro> any other places you can recommend? :L
18:37:36 <frosch123> usually we just spam the devzone
18:37:45 <Alberth> if you make it a tgz or so, I can store it for you :)
18:38:26 <oskari89> LordAro: Put it on DevZone :)
18:38:40 <LordAro> how? (without a project)
18:39:19 <LordAro> all i need is a folder, nothing else
18:40:58 <planetmaker> LordAro, you got an ssh key?
18:43:13 <planetmaker> or... do you use dropbox? that could provide you with what you need
18:45:32 <LordAro> wait, i can use dropbox on linux? maybe i will try that
18:46:30 <planetmaker> works very well for me
18:47:24 <zydeco> oh nice, I'l polish it a bit and put it somewhere eventually
18:47:26 <Zuu> Dropbox also has a browser interface.
18:47:55 <planetmaker> dropbox needs on linux no browser interface. It integrates well with file browser
18:48:09 <planetmaker> at least on my debian7
18:49:45 <andythenorth> unless anybody wants to talk ponies :P
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19:09:07 <LordAro> so, 2 graphics related restarts later, did anyone comment on my link?
19:31:44 <planetmaker> LordAro, I'd aggregate 001 with possibly more doxygen. I'm not exactly sure about how 003 compares to 005... they go basically different direction imho; I'd skip 3
19:32:32 <LordAro> 001 was intended to be extended, should more doxygen only stuff be 'found'
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20:06:00 <bon> hi djura-san and planetmaker
20:07:12 <frosch123> hmm, how did the old station gui look like?
20:07:24 <frosch123> it was a dropdown for the class, and then a list for the specs in the class, right?
20:09:12 <planetmaker> yes, scroll list right of class drop-down
20:09:28 <andythenorth> all I remember is the new one :)
20:09:36 <andythenorth> btw, we should fix the company colour gui
20:09:41 <frosch123> hmm, i need some advice
20:09:49 <frosch123> i think the category system for stations and objects is crap
20:09:49 <andythenorth> it's (a) bonkers (b) I can never use it © my toddler can never use it
20:09:58 <frosch123> so i want to add a text filter to it
20:10:17 <frosch123> but only filtering and still keeping the classes is weird
20:10:18 <planetmaker> authors don't properly use it ;-)
20:10:31 <frosch123> so, in wonder whether to show all filter results on a single page, ignoreing the class
20:10:34 <planetmaker> though classes work rather well with stations
20:10:51 <frosch123> or whether to add an "all classes" item to the top of the list
20:11:05 <frosch123> or whether to allow multi-select with ctrl and a "select all" button
20:11:29 <frosch123> basically i would like to type "steel" in the box, and then pick from the pictures
20:11:44 <andythenorth> what would feed the filter results?
20:11:50 <frosch123> all those "chips tiles" and "dwe tiles" are just nonsense
20:11:50 <andythenorth> what's the schema?
20:11:57 <frosch123> i do not care what grf author is proud of them
20:11:59 <planetmaker> frosch123, it makes sense to ctrl-select several classes
20:12:04 <andythenorth> I am +1 that it's nonsense :)
20:12:06 <andythenorth> I hate that crap
20:12:12 <andythenorth> I only have two categories :P
20:12:13 <planetmaker> with buttons for 'all' and 'none' :-)
20:12:53 <frosch123> i also wondered about adding a "<<" button, to shift the list out of the window, and never use it
20:13:00 <frosch123> but i am not sure what to put in the remaining space
20:13:05 <frosch123> it would kind of end up empty
20:13:09 <frosch123> which is also pointless :p
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20:57:49 <djura-san> 10y more and i will get magliev. i wonder what is it
21:11:41 <Taede> does rcon save save the game in the working directory (as shown by pwd) or in the save/ directory?
21:12:43 <Taede> in the first case, is there a way to tell it to save in the save/ directory without having knowledge of the directory structure?
21:18:20 <djura-san> oh, this magliev looks nice.
21:19:14 <djura-san> but they are not reliable at all. only 55° :\
21:20:04 <Taede> ooh, handy, rcon save ignores pwd
21:20:46 <planetmaker> yes. But uses one, if you use a filename different from 'game.sav'
21:20:53 <planetmaker> i.e. with parameter you need the pwd
21:21:06 <Taede> but its relative to save/
21:21:08 <planetmaker> or so I believe from our usage of ap+
21:21:16 <Taede> eg autosave/blub will always save in the autosave directory
21:21:38 <planetmaker> oh... pwd. not rcon password
21:37:05 <djura-san> what is the purpose of HQ? Will it grow larger or will it look like a farm forever?
21:37:58 <Supercheese> it also generates a few passengers, IIRC
21:38:05 <Taede> but it can be used to get a small town to accept passengers/mail
21:38:05 <Supercheese> and maybe also accepts passengers
21:39:23 <djura-san> i see. so it is a good thing to put it somewhere near the rail (since i only use 2 tracks across whole map)
21:40:15 <Taede> put it anywhere it will look prety, unless you have need of it in a small town
21:40:41 <frosch123> hmm, most of the times ottd on yt is weird
21:40:57 <Taede> i would personally not put it too near rails, as it may be in the way if/when you expand said railway
21:40:58 <frosch123> ottd is so complicated to play :p
21:41:05 <frosch123> i have no idea how i ever learned it
21:41:38 <djura-san> i have 2 towns. One is pretty small (for >100y it got about 300 new citizens) and other one is biger and it grew from 1200 to 5200
21:42:03 <djura-san> so i'm stuck here. I wanted to build 2 banks too but the prices are skyrocketing (10mil € per bank)
21:42:47 <Supercheese> welcome to inflation
21:43:20 <frosch123> yeah, why do banks cost money?
21:43:29 <frosch123> aren't they about getting money from other people?
21:43:44 <Taede> you have to spend money to earn money
22:01:26 <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r25847 trunk/src/landscape.cpp (2013-10-12 22:01:21 UTC)
22:01:27 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Comment for GetFoundationSlope was wrong (cirdan, LordAro)
22:03:19 <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r25848 /trunk/src (4 files) (2013-10-12 22:03:13 UTC)
22:03:20 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Refactor check for if a tile is not an edge tile to new IsInnerTile method (cirdan, LordAro)
22:03:40 <Supercheese> commit storm today, whew
22:08:04 <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r25849 /trunk/src (11 files in 2 dirs) (2013-10-12 22:07:58 UTC)
22:08:05 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Introduce IsTileFlat to not compute full slope information for situations when we only want to know if a tile is flat or not (cirdan, LordAro)
22:17:17 <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r25850 trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp (2013-10-12 22:17:11 UTC)
22:17:18 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Merge IsBadFarmFieldTile and IsValidFarmFieldTile into IsSuitableForFarmField (cirdan, LordAro)
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22:21:27 <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r25851 trunk/src/clear_cmd.cpp (2013-10-12 22:21:21 UTC)
22:21:28 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Avoid recalculations in DrawClearLandFence (cirdan, LordAro)
22:23:49 <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r25852 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2013-10-12 22:23:43 UTC)
22:23:50 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Merge GetFenceXX/SetFenceXX into one common GetFonce/SetFence for all directions that take an extra direction parameter (cirdan, LordAro)
22:28:44 <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r25853 trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp (2013-10-12 22:28:38 UTC)
22:28:45 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Simplify SetupFarmFieldFence by replacing the Axis and north parameter with a direction parameter and taking adventage of the new unified SetFence function (cirdan, LordAro)
22:45:00 <pasky> Hi! My Openttd (1.3.2) does not offer the "Replace vehicles" action. Any idea where is it gone or how to enable it?
22:45:24 <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r25854 /trunk/src (rail_gui.cpp road_gui.cpp) (2013-10-12 22:45:19 UTC)
22:45:25 <DorpsGek> -Change: Display the cost to upgrade a bridge at the end of bridge that was clicked and not the other end, which could be outside of the screen in some cases (cirdan, LordAro)
22:52:48 <Zuu> pasky: Open list of all (for example) trains, in the bottom of the list click on the "v" button (arrow) which pulls down a list where you find the option to replace vehicles.
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