IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-10-09
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01:24:19 <kristal> Is the most popular version win64?
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01:39:19 <Eddi|zuHause> it might be interesting when that tips
01:39:59 <kristal> Create... World Of Transport!
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10:48:20 <bon> do any of you know if callback 14B or 14C has ever been used or not so much that its just more of 'we know its in the spec' thing?
10:53:43 <planetmaker> bon, unlikely that it's not used, if it's in the specs (though not totally impossible)
10:54:38 <bon> can see why a player probably wouldn't like a randomized industry but I still had to ask about that callback now. thanks ^_^
10:54:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure andy was very close to using those for ports
10:55:27 <planetmaker> randomized cargo is being used
10:55:46 <planetmaker> afaik. But be very very careful about it. It will annoy users a lot
10:55:52 <bon> even although its nothing related to ottd I do actually know the port in railroad tycoon indeed always come randomized :->
10:56:09 <bon> indeed, just like I thought planetmaker
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10:56:36 <Eddi|zuHause> it is well known that RRT3 had a big influence on FIRS
10:56:36 <planetmaker> and break the industry chain view as it only checks statically
10:56:59 <bon> rrt3? I never ever did play that thing much beyond trying a demo of it for a few minutes at early release
10:57:15 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a missing feature of the industry chain view, though
10:57:15 <bon> I do own rrt2 and the expansion for it tho
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10:59:39 <bon> I did found the rrt2 port to provide queer options sometimes. for example you could dump passengers in exchange for getting iron ore
11:00:00 <planetmaker> you "did found" or "did find"?
11:00:09 <V453000> the randomized cargo productions are quite wtf :| should call it different industries tbh
11:00:28 <bon> v453000 yeah thats what I had somewhat suspected but this talk pretty much confirms it
11:04:58 <bon> one quick question in a different direction, when do you know you're starting to draw a single locomotive sprite with too long a length instead of breaking it up into articulated section? or theres no hard rules
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11:27:41 <LordAro> it seems my power supply is dying
11:27:46 <LordAro> anyone got any advice?
11:28:09 <SpComb> wait for it to catch fire
11:28:38 <V453000> I declare that a good advice
11:29:57 <peter1139> Possibly better advice: replace it.
11:30:35 <LordAro> i'm not entirely convinced it is though
11:30:45 <LordAro> it was making a not-very-nice noise
11:31:11 <LordAro> vacuuming (seemingly initially) had no effect
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11:34:09 <V453000> hammer fixes anything
11:34:38 <LordAro> V453000: yes, the Jeremy Clarkson method :)
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13:00:26 <AndreasB> now shut the fuck up, and leave me alone
13:01:05 <planetmaker> don't spam here. No foul language. And please be as tolerant with being named as you name others, AndreasB
13:02:02 <AndreasB> Well fuck you too then
13:05:12 <V453000> apparently everything is bad cause you cant shoot people in it
13:06:27 <V453000> BTW pm this was all just a cute discussion where he was agressively against Public Server ever pausing XD
13:06:32 <planetmaker> lol. I just saw the rant in #openttdcoop :D Bad time for him, eh? :D
13:06:48 <V453000> unfortunately whole world was against him
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13:40:17 <Belugas> thank you sir, so much!
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14:11:36 <peter1139> Holy shit, it's past 3pm already :S
14:20:50 <Belugas> done not much, I assume?
14:58:30 <Bad_Brett> i finally got that ssh thing to work
15:01:18 <Bad_Brett> the pushing works properly now :-)
15:06:18 <Bad_Brett> i wonder, when i upload things to the repo, is there any ...license?
15:08:26 <planetmaker> DevZone is home to open-source projects
15:08:58 <planetmaker> 20hosted%20from%20you.%20More%20infos%20follow is the default request for new projects
15:09:15 <Eddi|zuHause> long url is too long
15:09:25 <Eddi|zuHause> didn't we discuss a shorter url once?
15:10:08 <planetmaker> well :-) the URL basically contains the issue text :D
15:10:40 <Bad_Brett> i just added the last part, no problem there
15:10:59 <planetmaker> no, don't create such issue now, Bad_Brett :-)
15:13:08 <planetmaker> anyway, there's no license information added automatically to a project. But I will insist on an OSI-approved license being used, preferentially GPL v2+
15:13:08 <Bad_Brett> alright, so i'm allowed to pick a license?
15:13:14 <planetmaker> well, yes. What do you have in mind?
15:13:59 <planetmaker> I very much would like to urge GPL v2+... to keep it easy to collaborate
15:13:59 <Bad_Brett> the thing i want to avoid is, for example, that someone copies every house and include them in their own grf before mine is released
15:14:42 <Eddi|zuHause> well, that would be "no derivatives"
15:14:51 <peter1139> Difficult to prevent that without being open-source.
15:14:53 <Eddi|zuHause> which is generally bad for community-driven projects
15:15:14 <planetmaker> Besides that, I haven't seen that thing happening
15:15:29 <Eddi|zuHause> unless you count sergej :=)
15:15:32 <peter1139> er... *with* not without
15:15:42 <peter1139> Eddi|zuHause, yeah but he did that regardless of license :)
15:15:46 <planetmaker> and the license assures that *you* will need be attributed for the sprites no-matter-what
15:16:00 <planetmaker> But if you want "no derivatives", then the DevZone is not the place for you
15:16:25 <peter1139> No derivatives means if you give up, or something bad happens, it's all lost :(
15:17:30 <planetmaker> which is why I really advocate GPL v2+. It allows derivatives. It requires attribution. It requires disclosing which changes are made and providing the source in turn as well
15:17:58 <planetmaker> For the reason peter1139 just stated: no derivatives is too much a danger for me to actually invest time in
15:18:30 <planetmaker> and I'm also not happy to invest money (=DevZone) into stuff I may not make continue to work with OpenTTD
15:19:29 <Bad_Brett> "and the license assures that *you* will need be attributed for the sprites no-matter-what"
15:19:32 <planetmaker> I'm all happy to give all support, both time and ressources to projects which are open and allow just that: derivatives as anyone sees fit. But always sharing changes and giving attribution
15:20:51 <Bad_Brett> so, theoretically, someone can copy the entire project and add a text files which states "graphics by Bad_Brett"?
15:21:14 <planetmaker> you should add that file yourself ;-)
15:21:46 <Eddi|zuHause> looks like the last discussion about too-long-project-request-url quickly degraded into "look at this geociticizer"
15:22:30 <planetmaker> But yes. Anyone is allowed to clone the project. Make changes as s/he sees fit. State "graphics and code by Bad_Brett. X and Y modifed by myself" and release that.
15:22:42 <Zuu> But yes, someone can use your graphics as long as he/she also follow the GPL2 license and share the source of his/her project. It also need to carry an attribution to you.
15:22:46 <planetmaker> no-one can claim your work as his, Bad_Brett
15:22:51 <planetmaker> and that imho is the important thing
15:22:57 <peter1139> Sharing work is not a bad thing.
15:23:01 <Bad_Brett> i have no problem with that
15:23:16 <peter1139> Obviously if you were wanting to make money from it, open source might not be the best route.
15:23:51 <planetmaker> :-O @ Eddi|zuHause
15:23:55 <planetmaker> where did you find that link? :-)
15:25:04 <Zuu> It was possible created last time the same problem occured :-)
15:25:19 <planetmaker> possibly. But it left not a single residue in my memory :D
15:25:50 <Eddi|zuHause> [Dienstag, 23. Juli 2013] [20:13:06] <^Spike^> ... and we never setup a short url for that?
15:25:58 <Eddi|zuHause> and following discussion
15:26:18 <planetmaker> Zuu, totally yes :-)
15:27:12 <Zuu> At least the former I could do, the later is more hidden where you need to edit the page. Though I don't know if I'm allowed to do that or not.
15:28:19 <planetmaker> I fixed the former
15:29:20 <planetmaker> Bad_Brett, what made you suddenly(?) reconsider the license? Last time we talked you seemed all happy about GPL?
15:30:00 <Bad_Brett> well, i don't want to see half-finished work end up on some russian site
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15:30:36 <peter1139> That can happen regardless of your license.
15:31:07 <planetmaker> those people will not care about the license. Indeed
15:31:52 <Bad_Brett> the thing that scares a bit, is that i know that many people are becoming impatient because the project is taking too long
15:32:21 <Pinkbeast> Conversely, what if you fall under a bus tomorrow? It might be useful if others could complete the project.
15:33:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you'd find anyone crazy enough for that :)
15:34:05 <Bad_Brett> sadly enough, i doubt that anyone would invest enough time to do that
15:34:09 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, but it would still allow then to salvage some parts :-P
15:34:47 <Bad_Brett> yes, and that's the dilemma
15:34:48 <Pinkbeast> Bad_Brett: Surely then the answer is not to release it until finished?
15:34:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: but the point is, people could do smaller tweaks, e.g. to cater for some updates in game mechanics
15:35:32 <planetmaker> Bad_Brett, how is it really a dilemma?
15:35:47 <peter1139> I guess it's all a mindset. I'd rather concentrate on improving my work rather than worry about what others are doing with it.
15:36:07 <Pinkbeast> I think as planetmaker says, if people are going to rip it off, they're going to rip it off, regardless.
15:36:54 <planetmaker> also... peter1139 is right. It's a mindset thing. Personally I don't mind too much, if people just take my work and do whatever with it. As long as they credit my part in it
15:37:26 <planetmaker> People have different ideas of what is 'nice'. So... let them have their joy, I'll have mine. In the end more people will be happy
15:37:34 <planetmaker> And I can always point to my "original work"
15:37:53 <Bad_Brett> well, the problem is, that if there is a grf called "western trains", another one called "western towns", a third one called "western landscape", i'm pretty certain that i would lose interest in the project
15:37:53 <planetmaker> and say that it's the way it's meant to be :-)
15:38:25 <planetmaker> good that there isn't
15:39:20 <Bad_Brett> what i mean is... if someone clones parts of FIRS, it would be rather obvious that it contains parts o FIRS
15:40:44 <Bad_Brett> but if someone clones parts of something that isn't even close to a realised, it might seem like I'm the one who's doing the cloning when my project is released (because who actually reads those license files)?
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15:41:40 <planetmaker> no, it wouldn't seem like. As he's then not crediting you properly
15:42:03 <peter1139> If they can clone it legimately, they're far more likely to make it clear where they came from, imho.
15:42:19 <planetmaker> Like OpenGFX. Or zBase. It's mostly Zephyris' work. All know that. But he didn't write a single line of code for either
15:42:35 <planetmaker> except... scripts for sprite generation / blender stuff
15:42:36 <peter1139> Also the person who would clone might end up wanting to contribute directly instead of cloning.
15:42:45 <planetmaker> ^ I would expect that much more
15:43:18 <peter1139> That does mean a free-for-all with random art styles though, as you are still the maintainer.
15:43:32 * peter1139 looks at his keyboard.
15:44:19 <Taede> if you upload to devzone pre-release, you also automatically have proof that you added the house to your repo well before hypothetical cloner added it to his grf, so i wouldn't worry about ppl thinking you are the cloner
15:44:39 <planetmaker> ^ good point, Taede :-)
15:44:54 <planetmaker> the repo is proof of authorship
15:45:12 <planetmaker> unless you commit stolen stuff :D
15:45:20 <Bad_Brett> i don't think you understand my problem :-)
15:45:33 <Bad_Brett> it's not so much about getting credits
15:47:26 <Bad_Brett> it's more that i have a vision of how i want it it to be
15:47:39 <Bad_Brett> if people don't like it and decide to change it, that's great
15:47:41 <planetmaker> well, yes. Follow that vision. No-one's going to stop you
15:49:25 <planetmaker> but then I don't quite understand your problem indeed :-)
15:50:45 <planetmaker> your fear is that someone releases a newgrf with your artwork before you do. And you don't want that.
15:51:43 <planetmaker> suggestion: nightly builds. Thus... you release it whenever you make a change :D
15:51:57 <planetmaker> 'release'. for those daring enough to test test builds
15:52:07 <planetmaker> real releases are different
15:52:31 <planetmaker> just like openttd nightlies. some use it. and get new features earlier. test them. give feedback. provide hints for bugs
15:52:57 <Bad_Brett> hmm yes, that sounds like a good option
15:52:58 <planetmaker> same can work there for your newgrf. And real releases will be published properly so that anyone can obtain them conveniently. via bananananannanananananaassss
15:54:24 <Bad_Brett> many things would be so much easier if i used the repo
15:54:43 <planetmaker> well. The repo is up and running for at least 4 weeks ;-)
15:56:13 <Bad_Brett> i know some simutrans guy actually took houses from my screenshots and included them in some graphics pack, though i don't think it was released
15:57:39 <planetmaker> so... did he ask and attribute you?
15:58:01 <planetmaker> did you tell him what you think of it, if he didn't? And why do you care if he does it in private?
15:59:18 <planetmaker> in private anything goes really. Fun only starts if you distribute stuff :D
16:03:25 <Bad_Brett> i think that 8bpp versions of some of my houses will be featured in danmack's new project
16:03:32 <Bad_Brett> which i think is great
16:04:09 <Bad_Brett> because i love his work and would be happy to contribute
16:06:01 <Bad_Brett> the thing i want to avoid is that someone takes my have finished work and release it without even adding anything
16:08:13 <Bad_Brett> i'm gonna think about this
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16:26:26 <Bad_Brett> well, the whole reason i began doing graphics for openttd, was that i hated what the gaming industry had become... rushed releases, content split up in DLC's... and this is something that, while unlikely, could happen
16:27:01 <Eddi|zuHause> well, effectively, you "only" make a DLC :)
16:27:25 <Bad_Brett> haha... whoopie :-)
16:29:49 <peter1139> Everyone loves DLC. Nobody likes paying for DLC, though...
16:31:43 <Bad_Brett> in my opinion: a train set dlc = good, a single locomotive dlc = potentially game breaking
16:32:13 <peter1139> True, I was thinking big packs of content, not individual.
16:32:30 <matkum> what is the most efficient way to rapidly grow a city
16:32:46 <Bad_Brett> my main issue with dlc is that often screw up the game balance
16:32:50 <peter1139> At least 5 regularly serviced stations.
16:36:47 <Bad_Brett> though i just realised
16:37:31 <Bad_Brett> my train graphics are split up in thousands of parts... good luck copying that :-)
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17:45:29 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25826 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-10-09 17:45:21 UTC)
17:45:30 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:31 <DorpsGek> simplified_chinese - 4 changes by siu238X
17:45:32 <DorpsGek> finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
17:45:33 <DorpsGek> korean - 2 changes by telk5093
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19:04:00 <andythenorth> is this wise? :P
19:04:09 <andythenorth> I'll do it anyway
19:04:47 <andythenorth> wonder if I've done it right
19:04:55 <andythenorth> sometimes I would like a little more debug info
19:04:56 <andythenorth> wrt newgrf trains
19:05:05 <andythenorth> I am used to industry debug, which is good
19:05:20 <andythenorth> I am having vehicles made up of 1/8 parts
19:05:26 <andythenorth> so an 8/8 vehicle is 8 parts
19:05:44 <Supercheese> Did you address the air drag issue?
19:05:47 <andythenorth> but I can't inspect the consist to see if I did right or wrong
19:05:52 <andythenorth> no I didn't address air drag
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19:06:08 <andythenorth> first I need to compose the consist :P
19:06:44 <andythenorth> the game should calculate air drag proportional to length
19:06:44 <andythenorth> shouldn't be my problem, eh?
19:07:19 <V453000> omfg why even care about air drag?
19:07:34 <Sturmi> the game calculates air drag? o.O
19:07:54 <andythenorth> V453000: I don't care about air drag
19:08:14 <andythenorth> but some players have provided pikka with detailed bug reports about why their trains can't reach max speed :P
19:08:40 <Supercheese> and apparently the air drag calculations in the code have some issues with articulated parts
19:08:48 <andythenorth> hmm, this is looking all wrong
19:08:51 <andythenorth> oh, actually this wrong is right
19:09:03 <andythenorth> means everything works so far, it's just not finished :P
19:09:10 * andythenorth would like a prize
19:09:22 <andythenorth> I hope you all appreciate what I'm doing :P
19:09:26 * Supercheese gives andy a booby prize
19:09:30 <andythenorth> this is 30 mins of code
19:09:52 <V453000> peeerhaps pikka used broken values for power?
19:10:06 <andythenorth> it took 4 days of thinking about how to write only 40 mins of code
19:10:06 <andythenorth> otherwise I'd have spent hours writing it :P
19:12:33 <Bad_Brett> i usually code first, think later
19:13:00 <andythenorth> I done that already :)
19:13:10 <andythenorth> code first, think 4 days, write more code
19:13:31 <Bad_Brett> for me it's more like...
19:15:37 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> the game should calculate air drag proportional to length <-- that makes absolutely no sense. as the gaps between vehicles cause air drag, not the vehicles themselves
19:15:50 * andythenorth neglected that :)
19:15:53 <Bad_Brett> code, find 10 bugs, fix those bugs with really dirty solutions, to the point that i can no longer understand my own code... i figure out what i did wrong, think again, and finally code something decent
19:16:04 <andythenorth> so what, I have to fix airdrag myself?: P
19:16:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what's wrong with using the CETS method of 3-part-vehicles?
19:16:39 <andythenorth> don't know, I didn't look :)
19:16:42 <andythenorth> probably nothing
19:16:50 <andythenorth> I just found this way easy ;)
19:16:55 <Eddi|zuHause> you can leave out the turning state part
19:17:24 <Eddi|zuHause> it won't be much of a problem with 10lu vehicles
19:17:28 <andythenorth> so how did you do it?
19:17:34 <andythenorth> how long is each part?
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19:19:44 <Bad_Brett> i love that solution
19:20:25 <andythenorth> 3G modem on a moving train :P
19:20:31 <andythenorth> that page is loading slowly
19:21:00 <andythenorth> yeah that makes total sense
19:21:23 <andythenorth> any reason not to just use 8 1/8 vehicles to compose an 8/8 vehicle?
19:21:26 <andythenorth> other than elegance?
19:21:40 <andythenorth> do you put the sprites on the second part?
19:21:42 <Eddi|zuHause> number of vehicle-IDs etc
19:21:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i assign different vehicle IDs to the front and back parts
19:22:08 <Eddi|zuHause> so i don't have to think about position-in-consist
19:22:26 <andythenorth> I am using same vehicle for all invisible trailing parts
19:22:31 <andythenorth> it's working now, I'll see if it has any problems :P
19:22:47 <Supercheese> are your graphics only on the first 1/8 part?
19:22:48 <andythenorth> dunno if the sprite offsets will be wrong, if they're always attached to 1/8 lead part
19:22:49 <Eddi|zuHause> so the front gets X, the middle X+2000 and the end X+4000
19:23:00 <andythenorth> Supercheese: yes
19:23:01 <Bad_Brett> my vehicles actually consist of 8 1/8 parts
19:23:06 <Supercheese> might have tunnel glitches
19:23:11 <andythenorth> Supercheese: ok, ta
19:23:15 <Supercheese> I think Eddi mentioned some stuff about that
19:23:21 <andythenorth> disappears too early?
19:23:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you should use the middle part as reference, to better match the turning point
19:23:25 <Supercheese> somethin like that
19:24:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: my method makes sure it's odd-symmetric, so there is actually a middle
19:24:36 <andythenorth> I was really trying to avoid shenanigans where I have to put sprites on middle part
19:24:36 <andythenorth> it's really boring to figure that out :P
19:24:42 <andythenorth> load state sprites become a real cluster fuck
19:24:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i do that with templates
19:25:04 <andythenorth> that's what I would have to do too
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19:25:15 <andythenorth> I am trying to avoid code that is complex to remember how it works
19:25:19 <Supercheese> well, borrow from Eddi's already existing stuff, then :)
19:25:40 <andythenorth> Supercheese: then I have to remember how Eddi's stuff works :)
19:25:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't think your way is better in that respect :)
19:26:00 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how do you handle load sprites?
19:26:05 <andythenorth> you have to check lead vehicle?
19:26:29 <Eddi|zuHause> no, the middle vehicle has capacity, the other parts reference the middle part through var61
19:26:37 <andythenorth> where is your cargo capacity?
19:26:46 <Eddi|zuHause> which is another reason why they get different IDs
19:27:02 <andythenorth> do you have any visibly articulated vehicles?
19:27:13 <andythenorth> e.g. a triple-pack container wagon or similar
19:27:28 <Eddi|zuHause> lots of DMUs and EMUs
19:28:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a regexp-style pattern that generates the articulated vehicle callback
19:28:47 <andythenorth> that makes sense
19:28:56 <Eddi|zuHause> so i have "front, 3x middle, back"
19:29:24 <andythenorth> the problem I've got is that I don't know if it's worth binning (some large amount) of the current set templating just to provide 10/8 long coaches
19:29:46 <andythenorth> and I didn't want to special case anything over 8/8 (I already tried that, it's simple, but special case smells)
19:30:35 <Eddi|zuHause> you just make the sprites larger, and port over my slicing mechanism.
19:30:51 <andythenorth> I have to shuffle all the properties to middle vehicle too
19:31:06 <andythenorth> this set is just not structured for that :)
19:31:07 <Eddi|zuHause> you can make it front vehicle as well
19:31:14 <Eddi|zuHause> just a matter of var61 offset
19:31:23 <Bad_Brett> i use the front vehicle
19:31:52 <andythenorth> Bad_Brett: you use it for sprites or just for properties?
19:32:05 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, if you use position-in-id-chain front is easier
19:32:23 <andythenorth> so you have to handle all loading states and crap manually?
19:32:29 <Eddi|zuHause> as you just pass that position to var61 parameter
19:32:37 <andythenorth> can't just rely on the spritegroup for loading states?
19:32:52 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that won't work
19:33:04 <andythenorth> I was trying to avoid all this stuff :)
19:33:24 <andythenorth> I have no interest in 10/8, but I don't mind them, and Dan wants it
19:33:31 <Eddi|zuHause> but i find the stepping bad anyway, i'd rather have 0-10-90-100 for 3 loading steps than 0-33-66-100
19:33:55 <Eddi|zuHause> when i handle that manually, i have that freedom
19:34:23 * andythenorth will have to think on some more
19:34:34 <andythenorth> the CETS table will port straight over
19:34:43 <andythenorth> but I'd have to adapt or write my own templating
19:35:03 <Bad_Brett> i haven't added any loading graphics yet, but out of curiosity, is there any way i can animate them?
19:35:28 <Eddi|zuHause> just use the whole CETS script/table/template (with turning angles and all)
19:35:35 <Eddi|zuHause> way easiest method :)
19:35:57 <andythenorth> have you written a docs generator for it?
19:36:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: there is no animation state, so either you have palette animation, or you use movement steps or somesuch
19:36:38 <Eddi|zuHause> you might have a tick counter though, not checked
19:36:50 <Bad_Brett> there is that global counter
19:36:55 <Bad_Brett> but i haven't tried it
19:37:07 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: want to take over Iron Horse? o_O
19:37:09 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i have not (yet) coded a docs generator
19:37:14 <Bad_Brett> might be a problem with the sprite cache
19:38:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: well if there was no problem with the movement substeps, there won't be a problem with this either :)
19:38:22 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: if you worked with Dan you'd actually get some sprites supplied ;)
19:38:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't think i can get anything done in the near future
19:39:34 <andythenorth> you've got support for vehicle generations (epochs?)
19:40:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so either you take CETS as-is (there are a few configuration parameters you can tweak) and provide your own tracking table and sprites, or you let it be
19:40:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, i have support for that
19:40:58 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I'll let in be :)
19:41:15 <andythenorth> thanks for the CETS offer, but a good part of this is that it helps me do my job if I write code often
19:41:34 <andythenorth> it helps me work with programmers
19:42:55 <Supercheese> You can (ab)use the global animation counter for animations
19:45:25 <Eddi|zuHause> NOOO, orudge killed the forum :p
19:49:31 <juzza1> why multiple parts for vehicles with 1-8 visual length?
19:49:53 <Bad_Brett> more turning angles :-)
19:51:40 <orudge> Eddi|zuHause: now unkilled
19:52:16 <andythenorth> so if graphics need to be on part #3 or #4 or whatever
19:52:22 <andythenorth> I could just use a different vehicle id for that
19:52:37 * andythenorth is thinking aloud
19:53:15 <andythenorth> I can switch graphics based on numeric id of leading part, right?
19:54:19 <Eddi|zuHause> can you rephrase that?
19:55:02 <andythenorth> I can write a switch for a trailing part of an articulated consist, which checks the numeric id of the leading part as the var?
19:55:26 <juzza1> Bad_Brett: i see, very naughty... but clever too :D
19:55:28 <andythenorth> count_veh_id would do it
19:55:38 <andythenorth> or vehicle_type_id
19:55:56 <Bad_Brett> juzza1: yeah, it was eddi who taught me the trick... that bastard
19:55:57 <Eddi|zuHause> something like that
19:56:20 <Bad_Brett> my life is ruined now :-)
19:56:37 <andythenorth> meh, my idea won't work without some hideous shuffling around of code at compile time :P
19:56:38 <juzza1> yeah. i've tested cets, but didn't realize at the time what was happening
19:56:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Bad_Brett: i stole that idea from other people :)
19:56:52 <Bad_Brett> ...those bastards :-)
19:57:37 <andythenorth> what is the fascination with longer vehicles anyway?
19:57:43 <Eddi|zuHause> partially influenced by MB and George
19:58:16 <andythenorth> 8/8 is enough, surely :X
19:58:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: passenger vehicles are really long, which makes the game vehicles look rather toy-ish
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19:59:32 <andythenorth> but I don't mind longer either :P
20:04:50 <andythenorth> I thought I'd found a cunning hack to avoid using more ids
20:07:05 <Eddi|zuHause> just make sure the IDs are <8192
20:07:09 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: presumably somewhere you generate a 'consist' or something - a list of all the sub-parts comprising a vehicle?
20:07:17 <andythenorth> and then you repeat over that in your template?
20:07:53 <andythenorth> e.g. a tender locomotive will be made up of 3 + 3 parts
20:08:19 <LordAro> urgh, train stuff in #openttd
20:08:30 <Eddi|zuHause> the locomotive has a "attach tender" entry in the tracking table
20:08:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and the tender has a flag that it's not a buildable vehicle
20:08:52 <andythenorth> any idea which file? :)
20:09:07 <andythenorth> my train is nearly arrived, but I can read your methods later
20:09:39 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: most likely processing.py and write_engine.py, look for "artic"
20:26:14 <peter1139> I'd forgotten how long Lift Yr Skinny Fists Like Antennas To Heaven was.
20:26:17 <peter1139> And not just the title.
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20:43:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: am I reading your templating correctly? Do you also use c-pre-processor? (I am seeing #define - I didn't look into the makefile though)
20:44:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i use everything you can think of :)
20:44:44 <Eddi|zuHause> python, c-preprocessor, nmlc, grfcodec, shellscript, makefile
20:44:51 <andythenorth> sounds like FIRS :P
20:45:04 <andythenorth> kitchen sink compile stack :P
20:45:10 <Eddi|zuHause> not necessarily in this order
20:45:21 <andythenorth> so now I have to expand your CPP stuff in my head :)
20:45:40 <Eddi|zuHause> well you can just run it :)
20:45:52 <Eddi|zuHause> it will keep intermediate files for each engine
20:46:34 * andythenorth looks for 'articulation'
20:46:41 <andythenorth> I am guessing that's a list or similar
20:47:13 <andythenorth> oh yeah, found it
20:47:27 <Belugas> Card Processing Payment?
20:47:43 <andythenorth> ok, so the basic pattern you've used is about same as I've arrived at
20:47:51 <andythenorth> I'm probably going to steal some of that
20:48:19 <andythenorth> particularly I couldn't be bothered to figure out how to track the offset
20:49:01 <andythenorth> in what cases would "artic_ident = 'custom'" ?
20:49:33 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a remnant from when the pattern wasn't so flexible yet
20:49:54 <andythenorth> oh the pattern stuff is quite neat
20:50:06 <andythenorth> I am reading processing.py
20:50:08 <Eddi|zuHause> the earlier version could only do "A - n*B - C"
20:50:23 <Eddi|zuHause> so a "A-B-C-D-E" train had to use custom
20:51:09 <Eddi|zuHause> "custom" basically means "i manually type in the articulated callback"
20:51:20 <andythenorth> so the parts you define with the patterns....
20:51:32 <andythenorth> are those 'real' parts, or pseudo (invisible) parts?
20:51:43 <Eddi|zuHause> those are real parts
20:51:49 <andythenorth> that makes sense
20:51:57 <Eddi|zuHause> the pseudo-parts are strictly taken from the length table
20:52:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and IDs calculated by a fixed scheme
20:52:29 <Eddi|zuHause> X, X+2000 and X+4000 or so
20:52:57 <Eddi|zuHause> that allows for 2000 vehicles in total :)
20:53:51 <Eddi|zuHause> the "offset" can be larger, but must make sure that you don't exceed 8192, as the articulated callback has that limit
20:54:13 <andythenorth> so I need to find the code that handles pseudo-parts
20:54:20 <andythenorth> defining the visible parts I have covered already :)
20:54:47 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if "artic" doesn't bring you further, then try "slice"
20:55:47 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you're interested in sprite offsets, look at write.py and search for template
20:56:06 <Eddi|zuHause> and in helper.py i think
20:58:20 <andythenorth> so you consume a new ID for each part of each vehicle?
21:05:31 * andythenorth has to rebuild templating
21:08:00 <andythenorth> trains basically present complications
21:08:08 <andythenorth> ships and RVs do not have these problems :P
21:08:49 <V453000> that doesnt make sense!
21:09:08 <V453000> there can only be bad code, trains are awesome by default :P
21:11:15 <andythenorth> must be bad code
21:12:40 <Alberth> bad brain alignment with the problem at hand :)
21:15:42 <andythenorth> with RVs there is simply no case (in the ones I've written) for a vehicle to be used as both lead part and articulated trailing part
21:16:04 <andythenorth> whereas trains do that crap
21:16:28 <andythenorth> which is 20 kinds of complicated
21:19:10 <andythenorth> I have to start special casing everything
21:19:13 <andythenorth> it's basically shit :)
21:20:03 <V453000> isnt it easier to simply code it directly in nml? XD
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21:21:36 <ST2> well, a random message... good to display here: <ttd-srv12A> REX (Spectator): I love OPENTTD!!!
21:22:18 <andythenorth> V453000: dunno, do you want to try? o_O
21:22:32 <andythenorth> it's easier, but craploads slower
21:22:53 <andythenorth> copy-paste, find-replace :P
21:23:14 <V453000> I certainly dont want to randomly code things I didnt draw :)
21:23:18 <V453000> coding is just slave labour to me
21:23:40 <V453000> obvioutly it is fun if it makes things work, but I try to limit coding to minimum :P
21:24:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i do, too, that's why i do code generators :p
21:25:42 <V453000> well yeah but nobody is going to draw 600 engines either :P
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21:38:25 <andythenorth> so where is var 61 in nml?
21:44:32 <Rubidium> var 61 of what? industries?
21:46:08 <andythenorth> trains / vehicles /s
21:50:09 <Rubidium> can't find it either, though you could possibly use the deprecated thing
21:50:29 <andythenorth> problem for tomorrow I guess :)
21:50:30 <Rubidium> or... do all variables have an optional parameter for the offset (which is how I would implement it)
21:51:34 <andythenorth> that would be a nice implementation
21:51:41 <andythenorth> anyway, bed <- andythenorth
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22:10:14 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i always used var[0x61,...]
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