IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-05-24
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00:00:18 <Samu> if my rating is -1000 and i'm unsucessful, it will go back to -50?
00:00:52 <Samu> that's more than +200/+800 if it were sucessful...
00:01:47 <Samu> that's a +950 for being caught, or am I reading this wrong
00:31:23 <Samu> can't add a requirement for clearing trees?
00:31:58 <Samu> and -7 for clearing them?
00:33:29 <Samu> a required rating of some value to clear trees
00:33:48 <Samu> that's what I was intending to say
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00:39:17 <Samu> what about area look up? some tiles belong to local authority
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03:32:11 <Nat_aS> the local authority in OTTD
03:32:27 <Nat_aS> a world where the only lobby that matters is the environmentalists
03:33:02 <Nat_aS> "What, they buldozed half the town? Well they also planted a lot of tress."
03:33:58 <V453000> well, with magic dozer you can unlock destructive lobby
03:34:29 <V453000> in fact the destructives are usually a lot more constructive in the long run, they just need the starting steps :>
03:35:21 <Nat_aS> i just wish there was some easier way to make towns happy
03:35:28 <Nat_aS> without outright bribery
03:37:15 <V453000> well service in the town is quite good, but isnt absolutely instant
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04:09:47 <Samu> send helicopter to depot
04:10:25 <Samu> bug: can't send aircraft to hangar... can't send aircraft to hangar...
04:12:21 <Samu> had some helis going around from heliports
04:13:18 <Samu> so that's what it said when i was trying to send one to a non-existant depot
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06:40:40 <juzza1> can anyone else play thes midi files here directly in firefox? i have quicktime plugin installed & MIME settings configured properly
06:41:10 <juzza1> still says "A plugin is needed to display this content."
06:41:47 <juzza1> it's a different browser, so yes
06:43:50 <Samu> opening multimedia element, looks like some windows media player window but doesn't play anything, just says that message
06:48:56 <Samu> looks like I also need some plugin
06:51:31 <Samu> still opening... yeah I'm gonna wait forever
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06:58:29 <Supercheese> just use Winamp/Media Player Classic/Whatever
06:58:39 <Supercheese> Firefox hates midi, apparently
06:59:51 <juzza1> it works on other sites, seems like the method used in the forums doesnt work that well with midi
07:03:34 <planetmaker> a bit difficult to open. no vlc. no quicktime. only quicktime 7
07:03:47 <planetmaker> maybe that's the reason
07:13:44 <juzza1> <object width="320" height="285" type="video/x-ms-wmv" data="./download/file.php?id=163877"> this is the problem, it's not wmv video
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07:48:39 <Samu> someone was attempting to hack the other day
07:48:57 <Samu> he wanted to give me £20.000.000
07:49:38 <Samu> I got the message that someone gave my company the £20.000.000 but I didn't receive that cash at all
07:49:57 <Samu> and he didn't have £20.000.000 either
07:50:09 <Samu> and got a desync error shortly after
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08:44:43 <Cadmus> Hello. I'm back on OpenTTD after a break and noticed AV8 now has maximum range for aircraft but that this number comes from core. How is it calculated? Is it pythagoras, manhattan distance or something else?
08:48:30 <Cadmus> I'd hate to build an airport and be one square out on range, particularly if I'm paying for a refuelling airport in the middle :P
08:53:33 <juzza1> cargo delivery rates are calculated with manhattan distances, so my bet would be on that
08:55:07 <Cadmus> juzza1: Thanks, I might have a play on the weekend. I'm on a C-shaped archipelago at the moment so the distance between the tips is all-critical :)
08:57:27 <planetmaker> We don't guarantee one or the other distance metric ;-)
08:58:12 <Cadmus> Time for some testing then, for a start what square of the airport does it use? (I would guess top left)
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09:00:38 <planetmaker> Likely av8 gives distance in euclidean, though
09:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause> "the certuficate for this server expired"
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10:11:36 <Samu> ships cargo type displayed on ship list
10:23:05 <tycoondemon> make a feature request
10:23:26 <juzza1> what about refittable ships?
10:28:29 <Samu> looks the same no matter what cargo it carries
10:28:42 <Samu> i want to distinguish them somehow
10:30:17 <Samu> perhaps do that only for refitable vehicles
10:33:21 <Samu> Still about ships, the loading indicator
10:33:46 <Samu> overlaps with other ships also loading from the same dock
10:34:34 <Samu> maybe hide ships with 0% load
10:34:46 <Samu> hide the indicator for those
10:35:51 <Samu> or hmm, prioritize the highest load indicator and hide the others
11:05:23 <planetmaker> Samu, it's up to the NewGRF to show different cargos or not
11:09:18 <Samu> planetmaker: those icons displaying what's waiting on a station
11:09:49 <Samu> there's an icon for each cargo
11:10:13 <Samu> place that icon next to a ship when listing ships
11:10:44 <Samu> the ship still looks the same
11:10:51 <Samu> but there's that icon next to it
11:15:20 <Samu> ship number on top, the profit last year icon in the middle, the cargo type on bottom?
11:15:54 <planetmaker> I see what you mean. Makes sense
11:16:07 <Eddi|zuHause> but do you find that room on train/rv lists as well?
11:16:16 <__ln__> so.. were you wearing a uniform or vulcan ears?
11:16:22 <Eddi|zuHause> it should be done for all vehicle types the same way
11:16:30 <Samu> trains don't have enough room
11:16:51 <Samu> maybe reorganizing the icons
11:16:53 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: nobody does that outside some early preview events
11:17:28 <Samu> bottom left is profit last year
11:17:35 <Samu> bottom right, cargo icon
11:17:39 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: i've seen uniform(s) in the premiere of the previous one.
11:17:58 <Samu> and to the right of those 4 icons, the train
11:18:03 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: yes, but that was 2 weeks ago :p
11:19:25 <Samu> problem might be a large number
11:19:38 <Samu> top left+right combined as a number?
11:19:54 <Eddi|zuHause> the only time i remember actually wearing "costume" to a movie was "7 dwarfs 2", where all of us had won some dwarf hat in a previous event, so we wore them when we went to the movie
11:20:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: keep in mind that these vehicles may carry multiple cargos
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11:22:10 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, that room could be made, probably. Though trains is difficult with articulated and different refits
11:22:25 <planetmaker> Samu, so, please go and make concept studies on how the GUI should look like
11:22:40 <planetmaker> no programming. But like graphics work to show what it could look like
11:22:55 <Eddi|zuHause> "mock up" it's called :)
11:23:17 <planetmaker> thanks Eddi|zuHause. I was searching the word, but it was eluding me
11:23:28 <planetmaker> no skills needed there really either
11:23:36 <planetmaker> not much at least
11:24:23 <planetmaker> a tram with several wagons for instance
11:24:39 <Samu> ah and each wagon can refit?
11:25:08 <planetmaker> can have different cargo, yes
11:25:26 <planetmaker> and... what to do with invisible vehicles? which some newgrfs use?
11:26:13 <Eddi|zuHause> IMHO it should be for the whole consist
11:26:33 <planetmaker> that might be easier, yes
11:26:50 <planetmaker> thus a set of icons for each articulated thing. but separate for each wagon in a train
11:27:12 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i mean for the whole train
11:27:51 <planetmaker> it makes sense in the depot to know which wagon is what. For re-arranging trains
11:28:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i use the train details window for that
11:28:48 <planetmaker> bad for comparing trains
11:29:00 <planetmaker> and bad for changing a train
11:29:37 <planetmaker> and type of cargo is one of the most important info really
11:29:54 <planetmaker> questionable though... how does cargo display work with autorefit?
11:30:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the vehicle only has one current cargo
11:31:52 <Samu> i was thinking what the vehicle is capable of carrying, not what it is currently carrying
11:32:10 <planetmaker> that's virtually impossible to determine, samu
11:33:14 <Samu> shows what type of cargo
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11:33:37 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: he means capacity
11:34:16 <planetmaker> it's the newgrf's decision. And maybe you cannot refit to coal on mondays. and fridays only at half capacity
11:34:54 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: again, that is NOT what he meant
11:35:23 <Eddi|zuHause> he means what it's capable of LOADING, not what it's capable of REFITTING
11:35:53 <Samu> when it refits to something else, it will display another cargo icon
11:36:14 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, yes. And an autorefit vehicle, is capable of loading coal, iron ore, copper ore and milk, maybe
11:36:38 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it's capable of loading <whatever was loaded last>
11:36:53 <planetmaker> if empty, it's capable to load anything it can autorefit to
11:37:12 <planetmaker> explain your 'no'
11:37:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it has exactly one cargo it is refitted to
11:37:25 <planetmaker> and it refits to the other, if the station has the other
11:37:36 <Samu> autorefit means it will refit to anything it finds waiting to load on a station?
11:37:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the vehicle has no idea whether at the next station it is loading, autorefit is even enabled
11:38:11 <planetmaker> autorefit means whatever the vehicle allows it to refit to at station or depot at the cost it wants it
11:38:27 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and we decided it should NOT CONSIDER REFITS
11:38:39 <Eddi|zuHause> only what it is currently refitted to
11:38:43 <planetmaker> in this discussion's middle somewhere
11:39:02 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i was trying to tell you what Samu was suggesting
11:39:13 <Eddi|zuHause> as you clearly had something entirely different in your mind
11:39:15 <Samu> that would be kinda like implicit orders?
11:39:22 <planetmaker> sure. I'd say "your interpretation of what he tries to suggest"
11:40:15 <Samu> they show up but no one likes to see those orders
11:40:31 <Samu> messes up the vehicle list
11:45:04 <Samu> is autorefit the same as this example: send cargo ship loading goods from dock1, deliver them to dock2, go to depot, refit to oil, go to dock3 to load oil, go to dock 1, unload oil, go depot and refit to goods?
11:45:24 <Samu> well, oil is a bad example, ok, grain~
11:47:51 <juzza1> autorefitting works without a depot
11:47:59 <planetmaker> autorefit basically allows to skip the depot visits. It's meant to allow loading iron ore or copper ore w/o visiting depot for 'refit'
11:47:59 <juzza1> so no, it's not the same
11:48:50 <planetmaker> or to allow a container freighter to carry either fruits or goods or wool.
11:49:04 <Pinkbeast> And it typically only works on cargos that are fairly uncontroversially similar - coal and iron ore, say - where it doesn't make sense that you need a formal refit to empty a hopper of one and fill it with the other
11:49:34 <planetmaker> where it works is entirely the newgrf's decision
11:49:36 <Samu> i've never played NewGRF :(
11:49:54 <planetmaker> you may allow to load either milk or crude oil in the same vehicle w/o refit. Bon appetit ;-)
11:50:24 <Samu> i understand the problem now
11:51:03 <Samu> so it is sorta like those implicit orders showing up out of nowhere
11:51:17 <planetmaker> anyway, one *could* decide to only display current cargo
11:51:20 <Samu> what is the timer on those implicit orders?
11:51:28 <planetmaker> and no, it's not like that at all. And there's no timer anywhere
11:52:05 <Samu> i have 2 orders but sometimes a 3rd once shows up grayed out
11:52:26 <Samu> as time passes by, it can disappear
11:52:35 <Samu> like some extra road added to the route
11:52:51 <Samu> a bus then won't go to where it was picking up the implicit order
11:53:52 <Samu> what is happening in this example then?
11:54:16 <planetmaker> it went there once. but not the next time it made the tour
11:56:31 <Samu> could work similar to this for autorefit?
11:57:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see the connection
11:57:54 <Samu> if the journey does have the same orders the whole time, it will pick the same cargo types, right?
11:58:17 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it depends on what cargo is waiting on the station
12:01:09 <Samu> well, implicit orders aren't 100% proof either
12:02:00 <Samu> maybe some compromise, what cargo type it carried last journey?
12:07:39 <juzza1> btw if you need to differentiate vehicles in the vehicle list right now, you can rename them. renamed vehicles have their name shown in the vehicle list
12:09:34 <Pinkbeast> Or sort by capacity by cargo type?
12:10:17 <Samu> that was where I first based my idea, but... seems a bit random at times
12:11:04 <Samu> it carries 160 units of a lot of different cargo types
12:11:47 <Samu> yate cargo ship still looks the same, so there's still no easy way to distinguish
12:12:14 <Samu> they just happen to have the same cargo be grouped
12:20:07 <Eddi|zuHause> my solution to that is usually group them by route or by cargo type
12:20:24 <Eddi|zuHause> but it's tedious to set up for a running game
12:20:41 <Eddi|zuHause> and to keep it tidy once you add vehicles
12:23:46 <planetmaker> I usually go by route for the groups
12:23:58 <planetmaker> But often that includes only one cargo
12:25:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i usually do routes for passenges, and cargo type for cargo
12:25:48 <Eddi|zuHause> as there aren't that many cargo routes usually
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12:37:02 <Samu> my paint skills are terrible
12:39:33 <Samu> i'm coming up with something more as well, it's shaping up
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12:52:39 <Samu> where can i upload images?
12:55:44 <Samu> I'm going to edit another image for ship listing
12:55:54 <Samu> will be about what I was talking here
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13:07:11 <planetmaker> that definitely won't work with autorefit, samu. Nor need not work without it either
13:07:34 <planetmaker> e.g. I buy a passenger train. And give it those orders. Then the symbols will never be correct
13:08:54 <Samu> i'm editing the other image, finding those little icons is slowing me
13:10:17 <planetmaker> oh, even caching would not work... with shared orders, trains of different cargo and refit capability could share the same set of orders... difficult to display then.
13:29:03 <Samu> if it carries moar cargo types
13:29:30 <Samu> push ships to the right and put more cargo types next to others
13:30:00 <Samu> ships, or trains, or whatever vehicle
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13:30:55 <Samu> or grid the cargo types by 2 for trains and road vehicles, 3 for aircraft and ships
13:31:14 <Samu> pushes to the right by each 2 or 3 cargo
13:32:52 <Samu> i have to go to bed, say something so i can go :p
13:43:15 <Samu> can't stay any longer or I die on my desk
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17:45:19 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25280 /trunk/src/lang (finnish.txt korean.txt) (2013-05-24 17:45:11 UTC)
17:45:20 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:21 <DorpsGek> finnish - 10 changes by jpx_
17:45:22 <DorpsGek> korean - 22 changes by telk5093
17:57:52 <Wolf01> today I finished building my new lego 42000 (f1 car), it, is, enourmous
17:58:36 <Wolf01> yes, but it won't move until I'll purchase the power pack
17:59:14 <Alberth> sell your car, as you now can use the f1 car
17:59:38 <Wolf01> too bad I can't use it on road, I need a license plate :P
18:00:39 <Wolf01> I think it's the largest lego I purchased so far
18:01:25 <Wolf01> (the power pack leaves me with a big question: what is the purpouse to add a motor if you need to put your hands on it to steer)
18:02:03 <Alberth> doesn't make a lot of sense imho, unless you put in a radio controlled steer as well
18:02:30 <Wolf01> or you have a big room and let the car go in circles
18:02:31 <Alberth> perhaps it is too heavy to push manually ? :)
18:02:38 <juzza1> buy the rock crawler, and get the good stuff from it :P
18:03:16 <Alberth> maybe if you put the power pack in as well :p
18:04:32 <Wolf01> the next one will be the excavator (42006)
18:05:26 <juzza1> lego will release the biggest technic so far later this year
18:05:33 <juzza1> i think that is a must for me
18:11:10 <Wolf01> at first I believed it was built with large pieces, but then I looked better
18:12:14 <juzza1> i like how it even has the lego text on top of the studs
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18:51:59 <Guest6522> they're a bit dusty
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19:08:41 <DorpsGek> Commit by alberth :: r25281 trunk/src/object_gui.cpp (2013-05-24 19:08:35 UTC)
19:08:42 <DorpsGek> -Add: When opening the object-build window, make the last selected class visible in the class selector (sbr).
19:11:35 <DorpsGek> Commit by alberth :: r25282 trunk/src/object_gui.cpp (2013-05-24 19:11:30 UTC)
19:11:36 <DorpsGek> -Add: When opening the object-build window, try to restore the last selected object (sbr).
19:12:51 <DorpsGek> Commit by alberth :: r25283 trunk/src/object_gui.cpp (2013-05-24 19:12:45 UTC)
19:12:52 <DorpsGek> -Add: When opening the object-build window, make the selected object visible again in the selector (sbr).
19:14:05 <DorpsGek> Commit by alberth :: r25284 trunk/src/object_gui.cpp (2013-05-24 19:13:59 UTC)
19:14:06 <DorpsGek> -Feature: When opening the object-build window, restore the object build-window to the previous state (sbr).
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20:53:44 <frosch123> it's an approximation
20:54:03 <frosch123> in fact curve length is measured in number of wagons, not in tiles
20:54:23 <frosch123> so a train with short wagons can go faster through a curve than a train with long wagons
20:54:54 <V453000> I just count it as a short wagon bonus :D
20:55:39 <frosch123> anyway, you do quite colourful slides :)
20:56:21 <V453000> I just wanted to have this image highlighted as most people do not know this basic mechanic how curves work
20:56:35 <V453000> if people ask you what curve lenght is it for 5 tile Lev4 ...
20:58:53 <V453000> but yes I have illness for overcolouring
21:00:26 <planetmaker> one would think what you show there does not need pointing out... but yes...
21:00:49 <V453000> it does, it one hell of a lot does :)
21:09:23 <Rubidium> V453000: but you forgot tilting trains ;)
21:11:12 <planetmaker> and the curve speed bonus of railtypes
21:11:17 <V453000> not really, tha is all within curve speed
21:11:30 <V453000> shorter wagons, maglev, monorail, tilt, actual length of the curve
21:12:59 <V453000> the image is just the demonstration of the basic logic, not of the actual calculation
21:13:29 <V453000> that is the problem people generally do not understand
21:14:16 <V453000> they just learn in some game "ok this game we use CL3 for train AB", but they are able to ask if another 3 tile train has curve length of 5
21:14:28 <V453000> and a whole variety of other questions
21:16:13 <V453000> but none of them has as simple explanation to the mechanic as this image I just made
21:16:20 <V453000> it might be written there, but that clearly isnt enough
21:17:29 <planetmaker> the point is, not too many people read complete wikis
21:17:45 <planetmaker> like you did at one point with the coop wiki. And so did I ;-)
21:18:03 <V453000> well obviously, I also skim through text to the important things
21:19:21 <V453000> especially if something is so simple as that
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22:17:12 <Guile> Ya t il une bonne âme pour m'aider un poil s'il vous plaît? :)
22:17:24 <DorpsGek> Supercheese: English only
22:18:19 <Guile> Does anybody here to give me a little help?
22:18:31 <Supercheese> What do you require help with?
22:19:13 <Guile> about how to manage with a product in a station which requires and provide the same product
22:19:52 <Guile> is there anyway to make it take the product and deliver it in the same station?
22:21:06 <Supercheese> A situation like a bank requiring valuables and producing valuables?
22:21:37 <Supercheese> You cannot deliver the valuables from one bank to the same station you picked them up from
22:21:47 <Guile> in my case is : a train station + airport between iron mine and steel factory
22:22:25 <Supercheese> You could theoretically build a second station right beside and deliver them there, but you would make no profit
22:22:46 <Supercheese> Cargo transport earns more money the farther it goes from station-to-station
22:23:32 <Supercheese> I'm not sure I understand your iron mine and steel mill route, though...
22:23:55 <Supercheese> You can use transfer orders to transfer cargo at a station
22:32:21 <Guile> oh uh.... iron mine delivers iron, required by steel mill... (not sure of english terms)
22:33:27 <Supercheese> That shouldn't result in one station both providing and accepting a cargo, though
22:33:41 <Supercheese> unless the iron mine and steel mill were right next to each other
22:34:12 <Supercheese> You will require two stations, then
22:34:30 <Guile> but I made a big big big airport
22:35:07 <Guile> that increased the area that covers now both buildings :(
22:35:30 <Guile> now I have useless iron in that station :(
22:37:31 <Supercheese> Yes, that happens sometimes. You'll either have to make the station that has the excess iron the new pickup station and build another delivery station, or bulldoze the station with the excess iron and rebuild it so it doesn't get any iron
22:38:02 <Supercheese> rebuild it after the station name disappears, that is
23:08:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i never played that game
23:15:35 <Supercheese> I sing that song a lot, basically like that :O
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