IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-04-30
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00:00:40 <dough> it doesn't appear in my online content list.. hmm
00:00:44 <Supercheese> dough: make sure you're using the most recent version of OTTD
00:01:09 <Supercheese> well, ok, "most recent" is a terrible descriptor
00:01:11 <dough> i literally just installed it from scratch
00:01:26 <Supercheese> 1.3.0 is good, nightly probably better
00:02:04 <Supercheese> It shows up for me as "FIRS Industry Replacement Set"
00:02:08 <Supercheese> right below "Finnish Town Names"
00:02:27 <Supercheese> you can always type "FIRS" into the "Tag/name filter" box
00:05:30 <dough> i've got about a dozen items in the newgrf category
00:06:18 <dough> maybe a configuration issue?
00:07:03 <Supercheese> You're using the "Check Online Content", yes?
00:07:12 <dough> maybe it's because i'm doing it from the wrong place
00:07:29 <dough> oh yes that's my problem
00:09:26 <dough> yeah i was doing it from within "play scenario"
00:10:26 <dough> i'm gathering that it's better to just play a heightmap or a random map with FIRS
00:11:02 <glx> scenario usually have fixed newgrf
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07:21:17 <Rubidium> bugger... too bad Supercheese isn't online. Wanted to ask what he thought is the most recent version
07:29:28 <planetmaker> :-) write him a forum message
07:30:37 <__ln___> congratulations netherlands for your new king
07:35:01 <V453000> some dutchy got extraordinarily high so they declared him a king?
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08:25:00 <MNIM> __ln___: king ale got promoted to king beer :P
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08:56:27 <Rubidium> __ln___: you know that when you said that he wasn't king yet?
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08:57:49 <__ln___> i assumed he might not quite yet be
09:11:20 <MNIM> the queen stepped aside barely an hour ago, he will be crowned in three hours from now
09:12:18 <__ln___> so there's nobody in control right now?
09:15:23 <Rubidium> MNIM: the abdication was the moment WA became king; the crowning is just for "show"
09:17:03 <MNIM> hmmm, then I understood the procedure wrong, but it is my understanding that he isn't king until he signs that document.
09:17:29 <Rubidium> if that document is the abdication document, then yes. Otherwise nope
09:19:40 <Eddi|zuHause> what are the chances of someone else stepping up claiming the throne for himself? :p
09:20:21 <MNIM> being the king isn't all it's hyped up nowadays.
09:20:35 <MNIM> can't even properly execute people who've slighted you now.
09:24:42 <__ln___> will this affect on euro coins immediately?
09:26:01 <MNIM> the new coins probably already are waiting to be shipped.
09:37:23 <Eddi|zuHause> new 5€ bills are about to be released
09:37:51 <Eddi|zuHause> they won't have any king or queen on them, thoug :p
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10:35:16 <frosch123> what is our interpretation of the vehicle sound effect callback?
10:35:26 <frosch123> ttdp only calls it for the front engine
10:35:58 <frosch123> ottd calls it for more vehicles, but using the wrong variables
10:36:21 <frosch123> visual effect otoh is done for all vehicles, including wagons and articulated parts
10:37:09 <frosch123> hmm, there is a callback flag to activate it
10:37:25 <frosch123> so, i guess i just make it called for all things like vis effect
10:37:40 <frosch123> maybe that makes everyone happy
10:37:42 <DorpsGek> frosch123: pikka was last seen in #openttd 5 weeks, 5 days, 1 hour, 54 minutes, and 54 seconds ago: <Pikka> I do not want to watch a half-hour video for the one little piece of information I need and which probably isn't in there anyway
10:41:59 <frosch123> hmm, should the sound effects be synchronised between the vehicles of the same consist though
10:42:55 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't that something the newgrf could do?
10:43:36 <frosch123> no, the callback is called every 16 vehicle ticks, resp. every motion count
10:43:43 <Eddi|zuHause> "synchronised" sound seems like something that would just make things louder
10:44:00 <frosch123> i can now either always use that stuff from the front, or do it per vehicle
10:44:05 <frosch123> vis effect does it per consist
10:44:35 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, that's the other question :) maybe only doing it for the front vehicle is not that bad :p
10:44:41 <Eddi|zuHause> and vehicle motion is not already synchronised between vehicles of the same consist?
10:44:58 <frosch123> but if you then have a cab car, and the engine in the back, you will have no sound
10:45:13 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: specs say it is only valid for the front
10:45:23 <Eddi|zuHause> only for front makes it evil if you "cheat" around newgrf restrictions with the invisible engine
10:47:55 <frosch123> sometimes it is cute how some code just copied ttdp behaviour, while it makes no sense at all :p
10:48:49 <frosch123> ttdp calls the sound effects for vehicle subtype 0, which means "front engine" for trains
10:49:18 <frosch123> ottd translates that check correctly to "only helicopters" for aircraft :p
10:54:32 <Eddi|zuHause> "Samoa Air now charges ticket prices by weight, because 3/4 of the population are overweight"
10:56:27 <planetmaker> I wonder how that goes with non discriminatory regulations :-)
10:57:11 <frosch123> i don't think weight is mentioned in the list of things to not disciminate on
10:57:43 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on whether you classify overweeight/underweight as an illness
10:57:56 <planetmaker> which you well could do
10:57:59 <__ln___> non-discriminating people is not a global phenomenon.
10:58:43 <planetmaker> __ln___, airlines usually want to sell tickets... also for flights the other way... thus I'd assume also in EU and Northern America
10:58:44 <__ln___> in most of the world people are being discriminated for various reasons, and it's considered acceptable.
10:58:51 <Eddi|zuHause> but aren't women usually smaller and thus lighter than men?
10:59:06 <frosch123> planetmaker: ah, i guess you get in trouble with charging pregnant women
11:00:15 <oskari892> frosch123: ^ That sfx-behaviour leads to not-so nice side effects
11:00:44 <frosch123> oskari892: it is certainly wrong currently
11:00:50 <frosch123> the question is just, what is correct :p
11:00:51 <V453000> well they could always make a ticket purely based on your total weight transported I guess
11:00:54 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i guess sound effect callback needs some wider discussion audience
11:01:09 <V453000> that wouldnt be discriminating
11:01:24 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: usually the input here is more useful
11:01:48 <frosch123> but pikka is missing
11:01:59 <frosch123> which is one of the few who actually uses sound effects
11:02:08 <Eddi|zuHause> did anybody other than pikka ever do sounds?
11:02:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i wanted to do squeaking brakes, but didn't find the proper variables for that :/
11:03:19 <Eddi|zuHause> like, for the last second before stopping at a station
11:03:32 <oskari892> That could be "the idle" sound too
11:03:38 <oskari892> (stopping at station)
11:03:52 <Eddi|zuHause> no, idle = stopped at station
11:04:05 <frosch123> "idle = speed 0" in ottd
11:04:45 <Eddi|zuHause> but i meant "speed slightly above 0, but decreasing towards 0"
11:04:59 <frosch123> yeah, the train-stopping thing
11:05:27 <frosch123> the newgrf could actually check for idle-sound effect and speed > 0 to play the brakes then :p
11:05:55 <oskari892> The red block signal doesn't count on speed = 0, which should be corrected
11:06:12 <frosch123> oskari892: don't mix up things
11:06:37 <oskari892> Yes, but initially that was the ticket
11:06:53 <frosch123> you are jumping from observations in huge steps to wrong conclusions
11:07:20 <frosch123> the only issue of thaf flyspray is the behaviour of non-front vehicles
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11:08:23 <frosch123> that fs is actually a really bad report (sorry :p)
11:08:59 <frosch123> it makes huge assumptions, does not supply any testcase, and it is up to me to guess what was really done :p
11:09:31 <oskari892> Let's make a testcase
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11:21:31 <planetmaker> close as "unreproducable", frosch123 ;-)
11:21:42 <planetmaker> teaches people to make proper reports ;-)
11:21:54 <frosch123> planetmaker: it is even a feature request :p
11:22:15 <planetmaker> "won't implement" then :D
11:22:34 <oskari892> I just asked, could somebody do a switch for that :P
11:22:56 <frosch123> likely some troll told oskari892 that newgrf specs may no be questioned and that the behaviour is correct or something :p
11:22:58 <planetmaker> granted, I read it and was not more knowledgable about what it was than after reading the title of it
11:23:37 <oskari892> Should be more "concrete" in a few moments
11:32:22 <oskari892> there's a savegame :P
11:32:51 <oskari892> With explanation of situation, hopefully someone understands... Should i make pictures with text too :P
11:34:33 <planetmaker> depending on the savegame, the train number might help. If it's just a test savegame it likely is obvious
11:34:54 <oskari892> I'll edit description
11:35:28 <planetmaker> train numbers are unique in a savegame, thus the best way to point to a train unambiguously
11:40:28 <planetmaker> thanks Eddi|zuHause for the clarification in the spanish thread. That hit the nail spot-on
11:47:15 <oskari892> And it's also a bug, that when train crashes, it is left playing sound effect 7 :P
11:47:40 <Eddi|zuHause> you should put that in a separate report :)
11:48:08 <oskari892> Need a savegame for that?
11:49:11 <planetmaker> possibly... or link to the one you just attached
11:49:25 <planetmaker> it's always nice to have it ready to test / verify
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11:59:32 <oskari892> planetmaker: could you reproduce that "feature" on my previous flyspay? :P
12:00:14 <planetmaker> not yet. But the reason is that I don't want to launch OpenTTD on my work computer ;-)
12:00:54 <planetmaker> could leave a bad impression, if people notice ;-)
12:03:32 <frosch123> so, you still have a good rating?
12:04:59 <frosch123> my company regulary googles for the names of certain functions of the source code and other keywords
12:05:16 <frosch123> recently they triggered on the homepage of a local sports club...
12:05:36 <frosch123> some douche accidentially copy/pasted a code snippet while editing the homepage :p
12:05:50 <frosch123> it was in some comment section or something like that
12:05:58 <frosch123> completely weird :p
12:06:13 <planetmaker> that's how industrial espionage happens ;-)
12:06:42 <planetmaker> but googling for source code... not something anyone here would do
12:07:01 <planetmaker> Our "IT specialist" here didn't even really know what version control software is...
12:07:13 <planetmaker> not did the concept make sense to him when I talked to him a few days ago
12:07:15 <frosch123> it started some months ago, when someone accidentially pasted a function name into the google searchbar, instead of the doxygen search bar :p
12:07:20 <frosch123> and found something :p
12:08:32 <planetmaker> he uses of course the copy&rename "versioning"... which is "just as good". right
12:09:09 <planetmaker> I'd not be surprised honestly, if I was the only person in this institute who uses version control ;-)
12:09:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd not be either :p
12:10:00 <planetmaker> none has an IT background, but at least the guys who do simulations *should* like to use it... oh well.
12:11:35 <planetmaker> he was a bit surprised when I answered to his question "do you use it for all the programming work" like "yes, for several years"
12:11:39 <Eddi|zuHause> just make a presentation to the coworkers how beautiful version control is
12:12:13 <planetmaker> I might setup a server so that people don't need to re-invent the wheel over and over for common stuff many of us use
12:13:32 <planetmaker> sience. university. it's not about productivity. or uniformly managed systems ;-9
12:13:33 <oskari892> If train is running a circle and it hits it's tail, it wont' crash
12:13:54 <planetmaker> yep. known. won't fix, oskari892
12:14:31 <planetmaker> maybe you find an issue in the bug tracker closed with that comment. Not 100% positive, though
12:14:32 <oskari892> Seems that there are at least 10 turns of one train in 3x3 circle :)
12:15:35 <frosch123> planetmaker: oskari892: it's in "known_bugs"
12:15:51 <frosch123> under the headline "we will flame you when you report these again" :p
12:17:14 <planetmaker> good, so I remembered correctly :-)
12:17:56 * planetmaker ignites the 'idle' flame of the big flame thrower. Just for fun :D
12:19:45 <Alberth> I was somewhat surprised of this effort
12:20:34 <planetmaker> sadly, it makes total sense, though
12:21:44 <Rubidium> planetmaker: the best way to introduce versioning is having a project where many are writing on the same large document. Also 'force' them to you LaTeX. The first weeks they'll despice you, after that they're more or less converted ;)
12:22:13 <planetmaker> yes, that makes it easy
12:22:43 <planetmaker> But there's not a single big project where a lot of people programme on. Afaik. Not exactly sure about the simulants
12:23:38 <planetmaker> but there are a few cases which I use myself where it makes sense nevertheless which are written and used by a few from my working group
12:38:04 <oskari892> There is something with dev.openttdcoop.org
12:38:16 <oskari892> "Cannot allocate memory - 'hg' '-R' '/home/hg/finnishtrainset' '--encoding' 'utf-8' '--config' 'extensions.redminehelper=/home/dev/redmine.stable/lib/redmine/scm/adapters/mercurial/redminehelper.py' '--config' 'diff.git=false' 'rhmanifest' '-r' '9ae3d938ecfc' 'lang'"
12:39:24 <Eddi|zuHause> game crashes as soon as i unpause, because of "can't find other bridge end"
12:42:54 <planetmaker> not broken. But out of memory
12:46:06 <planetmaker> I wonder what I break, if I simply reboot
12:46:51 <frosch123> usually everything :)
12:47:14 <frosch123> all the stuff which the admin adjusted since the last reboot, and forgot to also adjust in the boot scripts
12:47:19 <frosch123> but only did them once
12:48:13 <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably all Ammler's fault :)
12:48:58 <planetmaker> Ammler, is quite good in keeping /etc as a hg repo, thus changes can be tracked :D
12:49:41 <planetmaker> but... too little memory to execute 'hg st'
12:50:12 <frosch123> that's not what i meant :)
12:50:23 <frosch123> but stuff wrt. restarting services
12:51:01 <Eddi|zuHause> just kill the process with the highest memory usage :)
12:51:15 <frosch123> like network mounts vanishing after reboot, and suggesting the admin after then n-th power failure to also put them into /etc/fstab, instead of just running mount :s
12:51:43 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the vm? :p
12:52:18 <planetmaker> yes... such *might* happen. It shouldn't. but might. And gunicorn uses ... 1.5G memory
12:52:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean "top" -> "M" and then the one(s) on the top of the list :)
12:52:50 <planetmaker> yes. top 6 contains 5 gunicorn threads
12:53:00 <frosch123> planetmaker: that's the thing which wrote the 60GiB error log file?
12:53:19 <planetmaker> that's basically the http handler for redmine afaik, Eddi|zuHause
12:53:46 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: coop had the problem that the disk quote were exceeded every few weeks
12:53:54 <frosch123> until ammler found the error log file of gunicorn :)
12:55:05 <planetmaker> yes... but disk space is currently not the issue. until we expand zbase a lot... 60G to go
12:55:08 <Eddi|zuHause> whenever something gets out-of-hand-ish-ly full over here, i do a "du --max-depth 1" recursively until i find something unusually large
12:56:26 <planetmaker> I might go for a larger max-depth initially though. I can then grep for size :D
12:56:48 <Eddi|zuHause> things like "i drag&drop-ed 4 .mpg files from an smb:// to kaffeine, and it made local copies in /tmp, 2GiB each"
12:57:23 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe i should just symlink /tmp onto /dev/shm
12:58:16 <frosch123> anyone ever heard about a "D"-battery? or is it a typo for an "A" ?
12:58:31 <planetmaker> D are the BIG batteries
12:58:43 <planetmaker> like 5cm * 2cm diameter or so
12:59:01 <planetmaker> cylinder like AA. Just BIGGER
13:00:04 <frosch123> i thought it just gets less A if it gets bigger
13:00:26 <planetmaker> D is significantly less A than AA ;-)
13:00:27 <frosch123> but AA is the biggest of those, then come C = A^1, and D = A^0 :p
13:00:58 <planetmaker> seems like, yes. Funky naming
13:01:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i dunno, i always used the Rxx names
13:01:31 <planetmaker> I wouldn't know RXX names
13:02:22 <Eddi|zuHause> R3, R6, R14, R20
13:03:46 <planetmaker> Your desgination defines also exactly the type. While the A or D-desgination only the size
13:09:17 <Eddi|zuHause> batteries were always sold under these names, until "the west" came along and screwed everything up with names like "mignon" and "baby"
13:09:23 <Eddi|zuHause> which nobody understood
13:11:02 <planetmaker> I never understood battery sizes. Neither then nor now
13:11:17 <planetmaker> But then... I'm a "grown captialist" :D
13:11:53 <Eddi|zuHause> although, they didn't have R3 back then, R6 was the smallest
13:12:24 <Eddi|zuHause> usually you would get R6, R14, R20 and the 4,5V "flat" batteries
13:13:34 <Eddi|zuHause> but i haven't seen a device using the latter for ages
13:13:41 <frosch123> usually there are C, AA, AAA, 9V and crappy non-standard batteries :p
13:14:57 <frosch123> if something is listed as "6xD", in know it's a monster i do not want :p
13:15:15 <Eddi|zuHause> every camera and mobile phone has its own proprietary battery sizes, it seems
13:15:21 <Tvel> well the 4,5V flats are actually 3 AA inside
13:15:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Tvel: no, they are slightly narrower
13:15:56 <planetmaker> and 10 9V blocks in a row will get *pretty* hot, if one of them is faulty internally
13:16:19 <planetmaker> I was scared... they took on already cylindrical size :D
13:16:21 <Tvel> hm, i remeber opening one once
13:16:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Tvel: yes, there are 3 cells inside, but they are smaller than AA
13:17:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really know which one AA is
13:17:27 <Eddi|zuHause> ah R6 yes, then i mean bigger
13:17:45 <frosch123> yeah, the size of a 4.5 flat better fits 3xAAA
13:25:57 <Eddi|zuHause> how do i get a vehicle from the pool in gdb?
13:26:02 <frosch123> "Die Lautsprecher sind regenwasserdicht und somit für Verwendung im Badezimmer geeignet." <- yeah, exactly...
13:26:21 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: _vehicle_pool.Get(123)
13:26:25 <frosch123> or something like that
13:26:57 <Eddi|zuHause> no, wait... i'm in the version before vehicle pools...
13:27:32 <frosch123> either you mean engine pool, or some earlier version of vehicle pools :p
13:27:39 <frosch123> but there has always been a vehicle pool
13:27:55 <planetmaker> oskari892, anyway, try again to push to your repo
13:28:06 <Eddi|zuHause> p _vehicle_pool No symbol "_vehicle_pool" in current context.
13:28:09 <frosch123> anyway, look at the global variables declared at the top of vehicle.cpp
13:29:15 <Eddi|zuHause> DEFINE_OLD_POOL_GENERIC(Vehicle, Vehicle)
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13:32:59 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: have you tried _Vehicle_pool? The define really implies it ought to be that
13:33:08 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it works-ish
13:34:04 <Eddi|zuHause> only i get Assertion `index < this->GetSize()' failed. when i try the same index as in the newer version :/
13:35:00 <frosch123> somewhen in the past the ids were obiwan
13:35:10 <frosch123> with 0 being the invalid id, while it is -1 today
13:35:19 <frosch123> so somewhen all ids were shifted by one
13:37:47 <Eddi|zuHause> but if it says total_items = 1536, how can Get(54) fail this way?
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13:38:07 <planetmaker> non-consecutive numbering?
13:39:10 <Eddi|zuHause> p _Vehicle_pool.GetSize() One of the arguments you tried to pass to GetSize could not be converted to what the function wants.
13:39:17 <Eddi|zuHause> that one i don't get at all
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13:51:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue how this works :(
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14:09:39 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, suddenly it works :/
14:19:22 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 100001101
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14:28:40 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, that can't be the crucial difference :/
14:32:37 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Don't know which patches you old game had, but strange vehicle positions might be because of some bad interaction with r23290.
14:33:12 <Eddi|zuHause> vehstatus = 0 '\000' vs. vehstatus = 9 '\t',
14:37:42 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: as far as i can tell, paxdest v3, yapp v6 and some daylength thingie
14:38:12 <Eddi|zuHause> so nothing which should interact with that in a weird way
15:00:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't get this at all... the only place in afterload which changes vehiclestatus is savegame version 152
15:01:05 <Eddi|zuHause> but this shouldn't do anything because the train is fully inside the tunnel
15:01:13 <Eddi|zuHause> not on the tunnel tile
15:04:33 <michi_cc> A train inside a tunnel *is* on the tunnel tile, just with a different status and trackbit.
15:05:11 <Eddi|zuHause> but that version checks whether the virtual position and the tile match
15:05:45 <Eddi|zuHause> which it shouldn't for this train
15:06:09 <Eddi|zuHause> and now Get(x) doesn't work anymore :/
15:14:19 <Eddi|zuHause> was something i did wrong with my savegame conversion changes
15:14:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess it overwrote unrelated parts then
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16:00:22 <peter1139> # uptime 17:00:10 up 2358 days, 6:09, 2 users, load average: 0.28, 0.25, 0.45
16:00:56 <planetmaker> 6:00pm up 1049 days 4:45, 38 users, load average: 1,08, 1,02, 1,01
16:01:08 <planetmaker> not even half as long :-P
16:01:41 <norbert79_android> Guess updating doesnt happen often :-)
16:02:04 <planetmaker> that machine basically has been replaced by the machine I sit on now ;-)
16:02:35 <planetmaker> I keep it still running to make sure I get stuff I might have forgotten to copy (but I don't want to copy all the old crap :D )
16:03:24 <Eddi|zuHause> whenever you decide to turn off and delete all the old stuff, the next day you want something off it :p
16:03:26 <norbert79_android> Does it run BSD or Solaris?
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16:03:51 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, yes. That's what I fear :D
16:04:24 <norbert79_android> Heh... Custom kernel I guesd
16:06:12 <norbert79_android> Well, need to get off from the bus... Later
16:06:33 <peter1139> yes, well, it could do with an update...
16:06:40 *** norbert79_android has quit IRC
16:07:24 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody abuses 5 year old security holes anymore :p
16:07:44 <planetmaker> yeah. They're exploited long ago. And fixed by the exploit(er) :-P
16:08:34 <Eddi|zuHause> that is standard procedure, if you exploit a security hole, you fix it, so nobody else will abuse it
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16:37:14 <Rubidium> why would you patch it? If it gets infected, you just toss the computer and buy a new one
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16:40:02 <Eddi|zuHause> in which timezone?
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16:43:21 <andythenorth> Can't compile that on a tablet :p
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16:45:13 * andythenorth might try hacking at diagonal river tiles for laughs
16:45:42 <andythenorth> Just needs to set some bits appropriately right?
16:45:53 <andythenorth> How hard can it be? :p
16:46:11 <andythenorth> Probably have to think about valid slopes and crap
16:46:59 <Eddi|zuHause> well all slopes should be valid
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17:16:39 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25213 /trunk (11 files in 5 dirs) (2013-04-30 17:16:32 UTC)
17:16:40 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5537]: clarify on which tiles IsDesertTile and IsSnowTile work, i.e. the ones without infrastructure or buildings
17:16:41 <DorpsGek> -Feature: introduce GetTerrainType which allows one to get that information for tiles with buildings and infrastructure as well
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17:34:13 <oskari892> "Waiting on reporter" :P
17:35:53 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you meant to talk to frosch123?
17:37:07 <frosch123> next task is to write a forum post
17:37:24 <frosch123> just because it's weird to pm pikka
17:38:04 <oskari892> Could be moved to problems section too...
17:38:06 <frosch123> that's not the type of forum post i mean :)
17:39:01 <frosch123> i mean one which summarised the current sound effects, and for which vehicles they are called in ottd and ttdp currently, and for which they should be called instead
17:39:18 <frosch123> and compares the behaviour if visual effects
17:39:47 <frosch123> but on the way to there i might just as well unify the behaviour of tick_counter between trains and rvs first :p
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17:46:23 <fanzeyi> Hi, I noticed that my airplanes was smoking when flying sometimes, and speed of the airplane slows down. How to reduce it? Build a transfer station between origin and terminal?
17:48:31 <Alberth> it means the aircraft is broken down
17:49:31 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25214 /trunk/src/lang (51 files in 2 dirs) (2013-04-30 17:49:25 UTC)
17:49:32 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:50:15 <frosch123> oh, rb pressed some buttons
17:55:55 <dough> i'm getting into scenario editing - are there script capabilities here?
17:56:13 <dough> for instance i'd like to parse geodata on real world towns into a series of calls to CmdCreateTown
17:56:47 <oskari892> Lately i was researching the same thing
17:57:32 <frosch123> you have to patch the source :)
17:57:34 <dough> so the C++ api isn't automatically exposed through some macro magic to some kind of in-game scripting
17:58:09 <dough> i mean i suppose i could expose that myself
17:58:19 <frosch123> but you will have a hard time to feed it with your geo data
17:58:22 <dough> i'd have to whip up a developemnt environment i guess
17:58:42 <frosch123> you would have to include the geo data into your script source or something
17:58:51 <frosch123> because the script cannot touch the filesytem or similar
17:59:08 <Alberth> it may be easier to implement the new scenario format and generate a file for that :p
17:59:15 <frosch123> also you would have to do it in a running game, and later convert the savegame into a sceranio
17:59:20 <dough> i was thinking of something much simpler
17:59:31 <dough> expose a create_town(x, y, population) in squirrel (?)
17:59:37 <dough> or as a console command
17:59:49 <Rubidium> there's no script running in the scenario editor
17:59:57 <dough> but you can run console commands
17:59:58 <Rubidium> they are only running during the game
18:00:03 <oskari892> Could solve when implemented
18:00:27 <Rubidium> and no useful APIs for gameplay are in the console commands
18:03:14 <dough> this text-based format is just being speced out, right
18:18:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i have not seen an implementation of this yet
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19:09:58 <michi_cc> Oh, Eddi already posted that.
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19:30:38 <andythenorth> michi_cc: is your river patch from a git branch? I can't get hg to apply it
19:31:08 <andythenorth> ach that makes no sense
19:31:12 <andythenorth> I'll start again
19:31:44 <Alberth> patch -p1 < the_patch.patch
19:32:48 <andythenorth> that's what I thought :P
19:32:49 <andythenorth> patch unexpectedly ends in middle of line
19:34:02 <michi_cc> I hacked that in a non-clean checkout, so I wouldn't expect the line numbers in the diff chunk header to be correct, but the context itself should match.
19:34:46 <michi_cc> Just apply it by hand if it doesn't work otherwise. Simple enough in this case.
19:35:30 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like you need to add a new line at end of file
19:36:18 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the paste removed that or it wasn't copied properly
19:42:03 <andythenorth> src/landscape.cpp: In function ‘bool RiverMakeWider(TileIndex, void*)’: src/landscape.cpp:1050: error: cast from ‘void*’ to ‘TileIndex’ loses precision
19:42:28 <andythenorth> could be EAndythenorth, but I double checked my application of the diff
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19:43:13 <frosch123> insert a (size_t) inbetween
19:43:21 <michi_cc> No, just a different compiler :)
19:43:39 <frosch123> or pass the TileIndex as pointer instead of by-value
19:44:22 <michi_cc> CircularTileSearch modifies the first tile parameter I think so that wouldn't be a good idea.
19:44:36 <Eddi|zuHause> that looks extremely dirty :p
19:45:23 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Change it to GetTileSlope((TileIndex)(size_t)data) and it should work.
19:46:14 <andythenorth> if (IsValidTile(tile) && !IsWaterTile(tile) && GetTileSlope(tile) == GetTileSlope((TileIndex)(size_t)data)) {
19:46:17 <michi_cc> And if you get another error further down, change that to (void *)(size_t)tile
19:46:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i should just stop watching Revolution, but somehow i can't :/
19:46:28 <andythenorth> still fails on l1050
19:46:57 <andythenorth> same error as above :)
19:47:45 <Eddi|zuHause> and if you (TileIndex)data&0xFFFFFFFF?
19:48:48 <Eddi|zuHause> get a better compiler
19:49:12 <Eddi|zuHause> there's no reason why that should be an error instead of a warning
19:52:30 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: every magic with pointers should be an error
19:53:04 <frosch123> if you use operator & with a pointer, it should call the police or something
19:53:23 <frosch123> hmm, ok, that was ambiguous
19:53:48 <andythenorth> rivers aren't wider afaict :)
19:53:52 <andythenorth> but it's progress
19:54:11 <andythenorth> do I need to build gcc btw?
19:54:24 <andythenorth> I can do that if it's nececssary
19:54:36 <michi_cc> It depends on the river length, you can vary it by making the 15 smaller.
19:55:36 <andythenorth> doesn't seem to handle the coast tile case
19:55:43 <andythenorth> so narrow rapids on the coast tile
19:55:54 <andythenorth> I figured out that one last night, I can look at my diff
19:56:04 <Eddi|zuHause> implement a MakeDelta() :p
19:56:24 <andythenorth> interesting case when a river joins another river
19:56:34 <andythenorth> the second river gets wider before the junction
19:57:30 <andythenorth> or maybe that's something else causing that
19:59:14 <michi_cc> Yeah, that's because the game takes the first river as the end tile which means my length calculation doesn't match.
19:59:55 <andythenorth> I wonder about doing a circular search out from the coast tile
20:01:44 <Rubidium> and use the flight-of-bird distance?
20:02:20 <Rubidium> then you might end up with a wide river at the begin, small in the middle and wide at the end (if it flows away from the coast for the first bit)
20:02:34 <andythenorth> well it might be funky :)
20:03:37 <michi_cc> Admittedly it's often no the case because the landscape generator rarely generates a sufficient straight coast.
20:03:42 <Rubidium> alternatively you pathfind from the 'junction' to the ocean through the river and add that length
20:04:57 <FLHerne> So all that water is pouring into that tiny little pond? :P
20:05:13 <FLHerne> Looks even sillier than with the current rivers
20:05:17 <Eddi|zuHause> it might be turning into an underground river
20:06:01 <FLHerne> While you're at it, could you make it generate rivers 1 level below the surrounding terrain? :D
20:06:22 <michi_cc> Rubidium: That wouldn't really work either. The diff is using the absolute and not the relative length to widen the river. I didn't want to make every river get wide no matter how short.
20:06:38 <michi_cc> You'd have to retroactively widen the existing river.
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20:09:04 <michi_cc> Oh, and I have a bug report about CircularTileSearch() (the overload without uint w, uint h). It crashes with size == 1.
20:12:45 <LordAro> michi_cc: you should report the bug to a dev.. oh wait.. :P
20:16:51 <Supercheese> Sheesh, it's snowing
20:17:18 <Eddi|zuHause> WINTER IS COMING!
20:17:22 <LordAro> but it's (nearly) May...
20:18:05 <Supercheese> We have had snow in May before
20:18:36 <LordAro> wait, you're in the US, right?
20:19:02 <Eddi|zuHause> you're probably one of the most southern persons in this channel :p
20:19:10 <Supercheese> We're only at elevation 2,579 ft (786 m)
20:20:24 <Supercheese> not too far from Canada though, just ≈3-4 hours drive time
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20:21:31 <Eddi|zuHause> even the northern border of the US is more southern than most of europe
20:21:55 <Supercheese> Hm, I don't think I've ever checked
20:22:13 <Supercheese> with the various map projections it is kinda hard to tell at first glance
20:22:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it was 49°N
20:22:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm at around 51°N
20:23:14 <Supercheese> Yeah, looks like you've got me beat
20:23:30 <Supercheese> 46° N, rounded down I suppose
20:24:45 * Rubidium is at 52N (rounded down as well)
20:26:25 <Supercheese> if it's snowing here, y'all must have blizzards :P
20:27:02 <LordAro> nah, Gulf Stream stops all that
20:27:15 <Rubidium> which'd be midway between Calgary (51N) and Edmonton (53N)
20:27:48 <LordAro> it's also rougly level with Siberia, right?
20:27:55 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, europe is known for its blizzards in may :p
20:29:14 <Rubidium> Alaska starts just below 55N, continental US ends just below 49N
20:30:29 <Rubidium> which'd roughly mean Germany fits in between the north of continental US and south of Alaska
20:31:40 <Rubidium> hmm, that reminds me about that reasoning why solar power in US is so crap; it simply has no sun, compared to e.g. Germany
20:31:55 <frosch123> lol, just wanted to mention solar power :p
20:32:45 <Supercheese> we get lots of wind though, the river gorge an hour's drive away is littered with wind turbines
20:33:10 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, in the fox news world, the USA has no sun :)
20:33:17 <frosch123> how many MW is lots for you?
20:34:01 <Eddi|zuHause> there are about 100 wind turbines in sight radius here...
20:34:23 <Eddi|zuHause> and we have next to no wind
20:37:03 <frosch123> mind that you can select the date at the bottom
20:41:03 <Supercheese> If I'm reading that correctly, the river gorge has more wind capacity in MW than the entire US has in Solar?!
20:41:34 <Supercheese> Oh, in 2008 anyway
20:41:38 <Eddi|zuHause> that isn't so surprising
20:42:22 <Eddi|zuHause> solar power is very expensive to set up
20:43:09 <andythenorth> michi_cc: I thought the crash for CircularTileSearch with size = 1 was my fault :P
20:43:14 <andythenorth> had a lot of that yesterday :P
20:43:39 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the guy who installs it on your roof is already the most expensive part of it
20:45:35 <Eddi|zuHause> that's the same thing everywhere :)
20:46:02 <Eddi|zuHause> except in bangladesh or something :)
20:46:03 <frosch123> well, it was different 10 years ago :)
20:46:12 <Rubidium> I think the main reason why it's not used in the US yet is the lack of energy taxes
20:46:19 <andythenorth> michi_cc: so I checked IsInclinedSlope(slope)) to get coasts working
20:46:53 <andythenorth> but not sure how to add that to the current condition check
20:47:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, because energy in the US is so cheap, the regenerative energy is just not amortizing fast enough
20:48:24 <Eddi|zuHause> imagine getting heating oil for twice the price, and the solar heating system amortizes in 15 years instead of 30
20:52:10 <Rubidium> back when I was there I think a gallon of petrol (US) costed as much as a liter of petrol (NL)
20:52:36 <Supercheese> seems about right
20:53:06 <Supercheese> roughly $3.50 per gallon for gasoline here
20:53:26 <Supercheese> rounded to nearest 10
20:54:04 <Rubidium> Supercheese: right now?
20:54:21 <Supercheese> "US Average $3.505"
20:54:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i saw yesterday 1,55€/l
20:54:46 <Supercheese> it also has some historical data there
20:54:53 <Supercheese> "One Year ago 3.807"
20:55:14 <Rubidium> hmm, what's the European equivalent of that?
20:55:40 <frosch123> hmm, diesel is more expensive in us?
20:55:53 <Supercheese> diesel has fluctuated a lot over the past years
20:56:00 <Supercheese> sometimes significantly less, sometimes a lot more
20:56:20 <Rubidium> here a liter of Euro95 (cheapest of the two) has an advertised price of E1.78/L
20:57:07 <Rubidium> and 3.505 $/gallon is about E0.71/L
20:58:25 <Supercheese> more than I thought
20:58:26 <Eddi|zuHause> it depends a lot on the €-$ exchange rate
20:58:57 <Eddi|zuHause> a few years ago when all of the US complained about 4$ per gallon, i calculated that it was around 8$/gal in germany
20:59:29 <michi_cc> frosch123: US taxation is based on energy content and diesel just has more.
21:00:23 <Rubidium> in Norway they must really tax the hell out of that stuff ;)
21:00:45 <Supercheese> too bad we can't have cars that run on natural gas, it's piped into everyone's homes, you'd just need a compressor and you could fill up in your own garage
21:00:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i think in germany a lot of tax is on diesel engines instead of diesel fuel
21:01:00 <Rubidium> they produce their own oil, so it could be pretty cheap (like 10% of the price)
21:01:02 <frosch123> Supercheese: you can't?
21:01:18 <Supercheese> frosch123: I've never found one on the market
21:01:20 <frosch123> they are fairly common in public transport here
21:01:22 <Supercheese> only large city buses
21:01:30 <Rubidium> what's the advantage of natural gas?
21:01:50 <Supercheese> I'm not sure about cheaper w.r.t energy density, but it is cheaper
21:01:58 <Supercheese> and piped to your house
21:01:58 <Eddi|zuHause> less contamination with sulphur and stuff?
21:02:00 <Rubidium> (besides having to switch to something else for heating?)
21:02:16 <Eddi|zuHause> more complete burning?
21:02:36 <glx> and forbidden in some car parks
21:03:01 <Eddi|zuHause> we have a few "gas" stations in the city
21:03:26 <Eddi|zuHause> and a friend of mine has a gas-powered car
21:03:39 <Eddi|zuHause> he works at a gas company, incidentally :)
21:03:59 <Rubidium> anyhow, isn't it just a variant of LPG?
21:04:11 <frosch123> i just have to figure out how to read it :p
21:05:01 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i have no clue what that says :p
21:05:22 <glx> Rubidium: LPG comes from refined petrol
21:05:25 <frosch123> WTT means well-to-tank, TTW means tank-to-wheel, wtw mean well-to-wheel
21:06:33 <Rubidium> bioethanol is stupid
21:07:05 <Rubidium> just use plants to feed people to run your car
21:07:05 <frosch123> hmm, no, actually, in general, yes :)
21:07:17 <Rubidium> right... who had that bright idea?
21:08:43 <Supercheese> original Ford autos ran on alcohol
21:08:43 <Rubidium> biogas, if captured right, might help in two ways ;)
21:08:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Bioethanol in its current production-form is useless. you need a way to generate it from waste products
21:08:43 <Wolf01> we should have stayed with horses
21:08:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: wrt xkcd -> yes, where are those nuclear powered cars they promised us 60 years ago? :p
21:09:13 <Supercheese> Model T could even run on ethanol, interesting
21:10:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: during and after WWII, many german trucks were refitted to burn CO from a wood-burning-oven on the back, because fuel was so scarce
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21:10:28 <Supercheese> must've destroyed the poor forests
21:10:53 <Rubidium> at least burning methane is replacing a very potent greenhouse gas with two less potent ones
21:13:33 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: used in france too at the same time (same reasons ;) )
21:14:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: i've not heard anything about mass-deforestation due to WWII
21:15:45 <Eddi|zuHause> and certainly not in the same orders of magnitude deforestation in england happened in the "discovery" centuries
21:16:48 <Rubidium> anyhow, I wonder if hydrogen cells might be the future of travel; coupled with charging them in the more deserty areas of the world (although there then needs to be some source of water there)
21:17:04 <Supercheese> Huh, the process is apparently much more efficient that I thought
21:17:23 <Supercheese> autos that run on wood
21:17:38 <glx> well on gaz generated from wood
21:17:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: there were a LOT fewer cars than nowadays :)
21:17:52 <frosch123> Rubidium: do you want to use a pipeline? if you would use tankers, you could transport the water back on retour :p
21:18:00 <dough> apparently substantial parts of the north korean army truck fleet run on wood
21:19:00 <Rubidium> frosch123: not sure; tankers might have some use, although we are having an extensive gas network
21:19:56 <frosch123> i am not sure whether you can transport hydrogen in gas form efficiently
21:20:03 <FLHerne> Apparently both world wars were very bad for balsa trees in Peru :P
21:20:10 <frosch123> i would expect it needs to be liquid
21:21:06 <Eddi|zuHause> pure hydrogen can't be liquid
21:21:20 <Eddi|zuHause> it goes from solid to gas at about 4K
21:22:47 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe with insane amounts of pressure :)
21:28:28 <frosch123> oh damn, silly me, i should have known that :s
22:14:01 <Eddi|zuHause> so high pressures wouldn't even help?
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22:16:14 <planetmaker> it would solidify it. Except in the small region around normal pressure and 4K... there we can have liquid H2
22:17:01 <planetmaker> according to that diagramme a google search gave me at least
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22:28:34 <Eddi|zuHause> 151 liters per capita, that would be almost one beer (0.5l) per day
22:29:07 <Supercheese> Well German beer is certainly far superior to American beer
22:29:45 <Eddi|zuHause> well you could just get german beer in america :p
22:29:56 <Supercheese> Beck's is the stuff
22:30:33 <Eddi|zuHause> that means "real" budweiser, not the crappy stuff you call budweiser :p
22:30:53 <Supercheese> Belgium also puts out quality brews
22:31:14 <Supercheese> and the Netherlands, of course
22:31:36 <Supercheese> ...we get Coors and Miller -_-
22:31:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really remember ever seeing dutch beer anywhere
22:31:50 <Supercheese> Heineken is dutch innit?
22:33:18 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly, but i haven't actually seen that anywhere either
22:33:53 <Eddi|zuHause> beer sold around here is either from the region or czech
22:33:56 <Supercheese> Huh, the Champions League spams its advertisements so much I'm tired of it ;)
22:34:19 <Eddi|zuHause> advertising != selling
22:34:27 <Eddi|zuHause> and i don't watch football
22:35:50 <Eddi|zuHause> and who really can tell netherlands and belgium apart :p
22:36:35 <Eddi|zuHause> except for which of them is blocking the autobahn with caravans :p
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23:28:55 <Wolf01> 'night (this time for real)
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continue to next day ⏵
