IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-04-29
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01:34:15 <TheBix> when my trains have to go to a station behind the one they just entered
01:34:26 <TheBix> they drive forward and turn around at the next junction
01:34:29 <TheBix> I want them to just back out
01:37:06 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a setting to allow reversing trains in stations
01:37:27 <TheBix> they used to reverese anyway
01:37:34 <TheBix> until I continued the line
01:37:59 <Eddi|zuHause> the setting is reversing at end of line only, or at end of line and in stations
01:38:15 <TheBix> do I need to start a new game?
01:38:22 <Eddi|zuHause> it used to be in difficulty settings, but in 1.3.0 it was moved to advanced settings
01:39:02 <Eddi|zuHause> there is a search/filter box in the settings menu, just type reversing there
01:43:45 <TheBix> Eddi|zuHause, I enabled it
01:43:49 <TheBix> and they still drive forward
01:44:25 <Eddi|zuHause> then they think the path is shorter, or the path is blocked otherwise
01:44:39 <TheBix> another interesting thing to note
01:44:48 <TheBix> the setting is called "disallow train reversing in stations"
01:44:51 <TheBix> and it was off by default
01:45:10 <TheBix> so they should've been doing it anyway
01:45:43 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but only if the pathfinder thinks it's viable
01:46:07 <TheBix> the thing is both paths work
01:46:12 <Eddi|zuHause> what happens if you reverse them manually while they are loading/unloading?
01:46:22 <TheBix> Eddi|zuHause, it works fine
01:46:25 <TheBix> the only problem I have
01:46:38 <TheBix> is that it puts load on sections of track where there shouldn't be
01:46:43 <TheBix> because they don't need to drive forward
01:46:51 <TheBix> reversing is quicker in every way
01:46:58 <TheBix> I have no idea why the pathfinder is moving them forward
01:47:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that can only be answered with a savegame, which i won't be able to look at right now
01:47:42 <TheBix> i'll show you a screenshot
01:47:52 <TheBix> nedxt time I catch one
01:48:22 <Eddi|zuHause> screenshot is probably useless
01:59:03 <TheBix> what stops a city accpeting goods and stuff
01:59:13 <TheBix> cuz that pisses me off i have a station and I supply heaps of shit to it
01:59:30 <TheBix> then it doesn't want any of my stuff and it builds up at the station and I get a super bad rating
02:17:38 <Eddi|zuHause> you need enough office buildings near the station (use the ? tool)
03:01:58 <TheBix> also the game can't calculate profits on vehicls properly
03:02:19 <TheBix> cuz I have an oil tanker takingoil to a railway station
03:02:23 <TheBix> which takes it to a refinery
03:02:41 <TheBix> yet it tells me the oil tanker has got negative profit
03:19:16 <Eddi|zuHause> do you use "unload" or "transfer"?
03:20:01 <TheBix> didn't know about that
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05:52:54 <TheBix> the more coverage tiles you have over an industry the faster your train fills up or something?
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06:40:17 <juzza1> doesnt matter for industries
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06:58:18 <JdGordon|> is there any way to increase the amount of cargo new industries generate as the game progresses? It's crap having a new (i.e) copper mine which does <80T/m late game, not worth building the train to it
07:03:43 <Alberth> serve the mine well, and it will increase output in time
07:03:54 <Alberth> always have a train loading
07:04:17 <Alberth> short trains are better since you deliver the ore faster then
07:04:35 <Alberth> building a statue in the associated village also helps
07:05:37 <Alberth> there are a couple of other things you can do, see the Game Mechanics page at the wiki for all the details
07:05:59 <Alberth> you can also start with trucks :)
07:06:41 <JdGordon|> sure, but thats just slow
07:06:51 <JdGordon|> and pointless after 2000
07:07:50 <Alberth> not sure, iirc you need to have regular visits to the station, which will happen automagically with trucks
07:08:59 <Alberth> and with 80T/m being slow doesn't really matter, as it won't make a huge difference no matter how you transport it
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07:20:37 <TheBix> if you have like a simple shuttle train
07:20:43 <TheBix> and its using a dual head engine
07:20:49 <TheBix> and the station is say 4 units long
07:21:30 <TheBix> the head can sit outside the station so you can still have 7 carriages
07:21:38 <TheBix> and a total length of 4.5
07:22:06 <planetmaker> you can also send a 18-tile train to a 4-tile station. Loading time will suck big time, though
07:22:36 <TheBix> yeah I think loading time is decreased with my train
07:22:54 <TheBix> which is bullshit since it theoretically should be the same considering all carriages are in the station
07:23:02 <TheBix> (I meant increased loading time)
07:23:21 <planetmaker> yeah. Sadly the engine driver can't get to the loo quickly. Thus it takes longer
07:23:29 <planetmaker> work safty regulations
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07:27:54 <planetmaker> besides this reasoning, the statement: "train must not be longer than station" is easy to comprehend.
07:28:53 <planetmaker> or next it will be "oh, I only have 3 grain wagons - it should load at normal speed" etc. Which would be totally over-engineered
07:40:10 <Alberth> there are always limits, and users always wants to go just beyond the limit. We can move the limit, but users just move along with it and want the next step. Also, it makes the game less challenging.
07:40:33 <Alberth> Eventually, you'll end up with an empty field, and a button "you've won"
07:41:10 <Alberth> Personally, I prefer a little more challenge than pressing a button ;)
07:44:04 <juzza1> when will openttd get epic cutscenes and xp system?
07:44:21 <juzza1> maybe a closeup "kill-cam" for a huge train unloading
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07:50:14 <Alberth> probably when hell freezes over
07:53:07 <TheBix> how often do farms rebuild
07:53:17 <TheBix> they all just shut down and then I have huge patches of empty land
07:54:00 <Rubidium> Alberth: Hell freezes over yearly
07:57:25 <Rubidium> apparantly miss universe 1990 came from Hell ;)
08:07:18 <TheBix> guys how often do you end up doing something like this?
08:07:42 <TheBix> by "this", I mean making a really tiny railway like that
08:08:39 <sla_ro|master> you can make a canal for that
08:08:51 <sla_ro|master> cost more, but you get more profit overtime
08:09:21 <Rubidium> you're better off building the station next to the oil rig
08:09:36 <sla_ro|master> That what i mostly like :P
08:09:44 <sla_ro|master> i did that in few maps
08:09:52 <sla_ro|master> made a small island and a station on it
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10:26:58 <JdGordon|> is there any way to do partial train unloads?
10:27:44 <JdGordon|> I'm playing with the neighbours are important GS and having heaps of short trains to get the needed goods/etc to heaps of citieis sucks
10:29:24 <Alberth> no afaik, perhaps with time tables, but I don't know
10:29:43 <Alberth> build a distribution center outside town, and transport with trucks?
10:30:17 <TheBix> trucks are actually the shittest
10:31:01 <TheBix> if I ever set up a truck system
10:31:04 <TheBix> it works well for a bit
10:31:11 <TheBix> but if theres ever any delay in supplies
10:31:14 <TheBix> they all lose me money
10:31:43 <Alberth> the same happens with trains that get in a jam
10:31:54 * JdGordon| wonders where in the code to start looking into the unloading logic
10:32:13 <Alberth> except their profit is so big you don't notice it
10:33:00 <Alberth> train_cmd probably, in some Cmd Load/Unload function
10:33:47 <Alberth> just grep -i unload src/train_*cpp :)
10:37:03 <Alberth> JdGordon|: you can also sent one short train back and forth between the distribution center and several cities
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10:43:26 <JdGordon|> Alberth: well, I'm attempting to mix my openttd addiction and need to improve/practice my C++, so see if the code can make this happen is a good idea
10:43:33 <JdGordon|> and on that note... FFS C++ :'(
10:44:15 <JdGordon|> the issue with 1 train and multiple stops is you'll end up with clones which will end up in the same section of the order
10:46:53 <Alberth> c++ is a challenge :p
10:47:25 <Alberth> but arguably, train orders are one of the more complicated parts of the game
10:48:10 <Alberth> so many cases to consider
10:49:22 <Alberth> you may want to search for some already existing art in extending train orders
10:54:28 <JdGordon|> I'm trying to get my head around LoadUnloadVehicle()
10:54:45 <JdGordon|> giving up is definitly going to be easier!
10:55:19 <Alberth> I only rewrote the GUI system, so don't ask me :)
10:56:55 <Alberth> learning a program this large is not something you do in an afternoon or even in a week
10:56:59 <JdGordon|> hehe, closer to GUI then, is diagnoal bridges and tunnels impossible?
10:57:24 <Alberth> c++ is turing complete, so almost nothing is impossible :p
10:57:37 <Rubidium> JdGordon|: depends on what you want to sacrifice
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10:57:42 <Alberth> the problem is however in the map data rather than the gui
11:06:29 <planetmaker> JdGordon|, the best solution to delver small amounts is to create a distribution station. Use transfer orders for the trains. And do small short-distance deliveries by cars
11:07:01 <planetmaker> of course that involves no C/C++ meddling :D
11:07:07 <JdGordon|> trains are more fun :p
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13:58:33 <fanzeyi> Hi, guys. How to prevent transport the passenger back to origin when dealing with re-transport?
14:02:01 <fanzeyi> for example, this station ( http://cl.ly/image/1b1p3P3I1J1k ) has three kinds of passenger. My ship transport them from `Rendinghattan Ducks` but they are always on the ship back to `Rendinghattan Ducks` rather than the trains to `Monburg`. Any solution to solve this ?
14:02:59 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not possible
14:04:20 <V453000> just make 2 stations where one is meant to go towards one and the other station meant to go towards the other destination
14:04:26 <Eddi|zuHause> (although i currently can't seem to reach that site)
14:05:00 <fanzeyi> Eddi|zuHause: thanks, I could use Google Search Cache ;)
14:06:26 <fanzeyi> V453000: ok, Im going to try it, thanks :D
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14:22:18 <planetmaker> or test cargodist
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14:49:09 <fanzeyi> planetmaker: wow, cool patch. thank you.
15:04:37 <Eddi|zuHause> uuh, i've got an actually loaded savegame now :)
15:05:10 <Eddi|zuHause> but i should probably fix loading path reservations, or i might get unpleasent surprises :)
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15:22:50 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Klein%20Elsmuenster%20Transport,%2023.%20Maer%201942.png :p
15:24:06 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone notice something being wrong with resizing in sdl? i can only resize horizontally, or vertically, but if i resize both directions, the drawing area doesn't resize with it
15:26:52 <Eddi|zuHause> yay, it crashes on unpausing :)
15:27:20 <Eddi|zuHause> OpenTTD using SDL
15:29:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "Build date: Apr 16 2013 17:30:30" <-- i guess that detection is mildly broken
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15:38:46 <Eddi|zuHause> ha, it seems to crash on this exact train
15:39:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess i need some better conversion of some things
15:40:46 <Eddi|zuHause> which revision was the yapp merge?
15:40:59 <Eddi|zuHause> or better: which savegame version?
15:49:33 <Alberth> it was a warm day, and I ate a strawberry pie :p
15:55:55 <Alberth> strawberry pie and ice cream need not be mutual exclusive :)
15:59:12 <Eddi|zuHause> can't have the pie and ice it too :p
16:00:01 <Tulitomaatti> too bad ottd won't do my tax documents for me
16:00:29 <frosch123> never read the wiki page about ottd then
16:00:51 <frosch123> it has some scary references to literature in that area
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17:46:07 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25211 /trunk/src/lang (vietnamese.txt welsh.txt) (2013-04-29 17:45:59 UTC)
17:46:08 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:09 <DorpsGek> vietnamese - 4 changes by nglekhoi
17:46:10 <DorpsGek> welsh - 4 changes by kazzie
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20:09:40 <andythenorth> river code is pretty neat
20:10:06 <andythenorth> rubidium's comment "oh I hacked it dirtily on a-star' or such is a bit self-deprecating
20:10:41 <planetmaker> oh, that river code :D
20:10:45 <andythenorth> I wanted to make estuaries :P
20:11:06 <andythenorth> by doubling river width 5 tiles or so back from sea
20:11:17 <frosch123> a-star with a random cost function, iirc :)
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20:17:58 * andythenorth managed an assert
20:18:01 <andythenorth> aren't I clever :P
20:23:11 <andythenorth> it's amazing how far you can get in C++ using copy-paste-hack, and no idea what you're doing
20:25:33 <andythenorth> 4 tile wide is pretty neat
20:26:41 <Rubidium> andythenorth: a dirty trick can be codes cleanly
20:26:51 <Rubidium> just like a clean solution can be coded in a dirty manner
20:27:06 <andythenorth> I don't think I've managed either :P
20:28:57 <andythenorth> I want to find out if the current tile is < 5 tiles away from end node
20:29:19 <andythenorth> and then I guess do a circular search and MakeRiver on neighbouring tiles
20:29:43 <planetmaker> you can't 'make river' on most slopes
20:30:02 <andythenorth> my code is trying to make river on something that frequently causes asserts, but not always
20:30:12 <andythenorth> also the assert itself crashes?
20:30:13 <planetmaker> that's the wrong slopes.
20:30:22 <andythenorth> 2013-04-29 21:28:11.144 openttd[63208:7e0b] NSAlert is being used from a background thread, which is not safe. This is probably going to crash sometimes. Break on void _NSAlertWarnUnsafeBackgroundThreadUsage() to debug. This will be logged only once. This may break in the future.
20:31:01 <andythenorth> wider river before and after rapids :P
20:32:14 <planetmaker> or introduce more river tiles :D
20:36:51 <Rubidium> rivers with foundations?
20:37:27 <Alberth> land that looks like a rivers :)
20:37:34 <andythenorth> my hack works :D :o
20:37:35 <glx> OSX and its nice messages
20:38:21 <Rubidium> glx: who cares? If it breaks in the future, then fine. We won't be supporting that version anyhow
20:38:26 <Alberth> SVN is getting better at its messages too :)
20:38:52 <andythenorth> something screwy at the river mouth though :o
20:39:09 <andythenorth> I guess the last tile shouldn't do a circular search :P
20:40:18 <planetmaker> andythenorth, screwy as in rivers placed at sea level. That leaves exactly that result
20:40:29 <planetmaker> similar to canals
20:41:35 <andythenorth> need to get WATER_CLASS_SEA
20:43:48 <andythenorth> what should happen if I call GetWaterClass(tile) on a tile which isn't water? o_O
20:44:12 <Rubidium> andythenorth: assert?
20:44:13 <planetmaker> andythenorth, 'not water'. There's a return value indicating that
20:44:19 <V453000> make them revive-able first :P
20:44:33 <planetmaker> at least in NewGRF specs
20:44:39 <andythenorth> I have asserts left right and center
20:44:55 <andythenorth> I probably need to check for more tile cases I guess
20:45:14 <andythenorth> maybe it's hitting houses or objects or something?
20:45:25 <Rubidium> but the documentation of GetWaterClass already says what is required to call it
20:45:37 <andythenorth> documentation :P
20:46:36 <V453000> achievement unlocked: banned on simuscape bananas thread :D
20:46:56 <andythenorth> you silly pickle
20:49:49 <planetmaker> I'm surprised that it is still an issue over there
20:50:03 <Rubidium> V453000: luckily it's not public ;)
20:50:40 <V453000> planetmaker: I cant say I have been calming down the discussion :P
20:51:00 <andythenorth> so I have to check for sea somehow :P
20:51:07 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25212 /branches/1.3 (47 files in 5 dirs) (2013-04-29 20:50:58 UTC)
20:51:08 <DorpsGek> [1.3] -Backport from trunk:
20:51:09 <DorpsGek> - Feature: Translations of baseset descriptions via language files (r25209, r25205)
20:51:10 <DorpsGek> - Fix: The level crossing sound is an ambient sound and not a new year sound (r25200)
20:51:18 <andythenorth> if (GetWaterClass(tile) != WATER_CLASS_SEA) causes assert
20:51:26 <andythenorth> but the assert might be caused by something else entirely
20:51:52 <andythenorth> I can perfectly get an assert without that check in place :P
20:52:55 <andythenorth> I guess I need to check more tile conditions
20:54:28 <Rubidium> andythenorth: edge-of-map?
20:54:51 <andythenorth> I am looking for other code to c+p :)
20:54:57 <andythenorth> MakeRiver doesn't fail in other places
20:56:22 <Rubidium> maybe there's something on the tile that can't be removed?
20:56:38 <Rubidium> and MakeRiver replaces then just one of the tiles of the whole industry
20:56:48 <andythenorth> so I need to check other stuff
20:58:09 * andythenorth wonders what does IsValidTile does
20:58:22 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Call HasTileWaterClass() before getting the water class.
21:06:46 <andythenorth> kind of stupid :)
21:09:40 <planetmaker> andythenorth, on slopes you could simply check for the right slope instead of ignoring them entirely
21:09:50 <andythenorth> that's what I'm trying to figure out next :)
21:09:54 <andythenorth> bit lost so far :P
21:10:01 <andythenorth> seems to be based on figuring out the height level
21:10:23 <planetmaker> you can check for slope directly...
21:11:51 <andythenorth> trying to find an example
21:13:02 <andythenorth> IsInclinedSlope(slope) looks plausible
21:14:31 <andythenorth> works...sometimes :P
21:14:51 <andythenorth> not at all on coasts
21:19:37 <planetmaker> IsInclinedSlope checks for the allowed slopes
21:21:13 <andythenorth> can't figure out if the coast issue is because I'm on IsWaterTile(end) or because it's a coast tile
21:22:09 <andythenorth> or maybe it's my check for water
21:22:14 <andythenorth> coasts have water
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21:27:49 <andythenorth> so how do I count nodes in River_FoundEndNode?
21:27:58 <andythenorth> I want to check if I'm in the last 4 or 5 nodes or so?
21:28:25 <planetmaker> just check whether the tile is already sea water?
21:29:04 <andythenorth> I need to walk the wider section back a bit further from sea than that
21:29:48 <andythenorth> I figured something like if node number > (last node - 5)
21:29:58 <andythenorth> but I dunno if I can count nodes that way
21:30:02 <Supercheese> Trying to calculate the river delta delta, eh?
21:32:15 <andythenorth> 2 tile rivers look neat
21:32:25 <andythenorth> but there are lots of pissy edge cases
21:32:34 <andythenorth> need terraforming :P
21:32:56 <andythenorth> or removal of nonsense elements
21:36:07 <planetmaker> andythenorth, looks a bit funky but IMHO not totally out-of-place
21:36:12 <planetmaker> rivers do have dead arms etc
21:43:22 <planetmaker> I call that world "water garden"
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21:56:34 * andythenorth accidentally made lakes :o
22:00:41 <Eddi|zuHause> when i tried to do rivers, i got stuck on the terraforming
22:00:59 <Eddi|zuHause> rivers on arbitrary slopes would be better
22:01:12 <Supercheese> "just" need some graphics
22:01:22 <andythenorth> I was trying to find a wide to widen the CircularTileSearch after the river was n tiles long
22:01:31 <andythenorth> but I can't seem to count reliably
22:01:46 <andythenorth> I thought I could just increment a counter on the path node loop
22:16:59 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, he does that a lot :)
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23:52:04 <dough> anybody around right now?
23:55:21 <dough> heya.. i'm a little confused about the multitude of newgrfs available
23:55:40 <Supercheese> There are indeed a lot
23:55:49 <dough> is there sort of a default "best so far" set of industry vectors and vehicles
23:55:53 <dough> i've been looking at ECS
23:56:24 <dough> it would be nice to have a consistent package
23:57:46 <Supercheese> There are two main industry sets, ECS and FIRS, with a third also popular (but less so): Pikka's Basic Industries
23:58:03 <Supercheese> Most new vehicle sets will support the various new cargos introduced by all those sets
23:58:57 <dough> i just noticed a thread post about a new FIRS release
23:59:36 <dough> why don't these things show up in the "fruit shop"
23:59:55 <Supercheese> ^ pretty much yeah
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