IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-04-04
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08:08:11 <Eddi|zuHause> which crazyperson renamed the page to "Compiling on (GNU/)Linux"? the redirection on the wiki is totally confused...
08:11:48 <TinoDidriksen> History will reveal that, surely.
08:17:58 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, two consecutive redirects don't seem to work
08:20:13 <Eddi|zuHause> which redirects you to the "GNU/Linux" page, and stops there
08:24:00 <Eddi|zuHause> "Disney closes LucasArts"
08:24:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i should have known that :)
08:24:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i just fixed the redirect for now, to remove the intermediate step
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08:25:11 <Eddi|zuHause> but i find the page title totally awkward
08:25:58 <planetmaker> I'd switch redirect and page, tbh
08:26:20 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but i won't do that now
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13:04:19 <Ristovski> hmm "view bounding box structure" shortcut doesnt work
13:04:46 <Ristovski> and yes, I do have "bounding_boxes = CTRL+B"
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13:06:55 <V453000> what do you need that for :d
13:08:10 <Ristovski> V453000: I never actually saw what it does
13:09:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Ristovski: it only works with developer tools active
13:09:28 <Eddi|zuHause> the newgrf ones, i suspect
13:09:53 <Ristovski> Eddi|zuHause: hmm, I think I have them
13:10:01 <V453000> I honestly dont even understand what to use that for regarding newgrf development
13:11:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i used that to find out how vehicle movement works
13:12:26 <V453000> but it shows diagonal vehicles as little boxes
13:12:48 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. bounding boxes cannot be rotated
13:13:01 <Ristovski> how do I even enable that?
13:13:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Ristovski: if you don't know that, you don't need it
13:18:06 <Sacro> I hate finding bugs in our software
13:18:25 <Sacro> sleep based throttling causes the tcp buffer to fill
13:21:31 <Eddi|zuHause> you'd rather search for them forever, instead of actually finding them?
13:29:19 <V453000> dark lord of unrealism? :)
13:34:17 <DorpsGek> oskari89: DanMacK was last seen in #openttd 5 weeks, 6 days, 23 hours, 15 minutes, and 21 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Hey all
13:36:18 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 25 weeks, 5 days, 13 hours, 17 minutes, and 12 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
13:36:28 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Eddi|zuHause was last seen in #openttd 14 minutes and 57 seconds ago: <Eddi|zuHause> you'd rather search for them forever, instead of actually finding them?
13:36:50 <oskari89> Seems DanMacK has a little break from here :P
13:39:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember DanMacK being here regularly
13:53:20 <V453000> well I guess this thread is now officially dead :D
14:28:20 <Belugas> V453000: that is just a legend...
14:40:07 <Sacro> it disturbs me very sprites
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15:44:30 <Eddi|zuHause> something is very wrong with the forums. the overview tells me there's a reply here from 16:06, but when i click on "go to new posts", nothing is there, only my post from 16:01. and it won't mark the topic as read
15:45:50 <Eddi|zuHause> it's like a stale reference to a post that was deleted or something
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17:45:29 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25142 /trunk/src/lang (4 files in 2 dirs) (2013-04-04 17:45:19 UTC)
17:45:30 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:31 <DorpsGek> esperanto - 3 changes by potwor
17:45:32 <DorpsGek> faroese - 300 changes by FastNinja
17:45:33 <DorpsGek> galician - 125 changes by Michi
17:45:34 <DorpsGek> indonesian - 22 changes by Yoursnotmine
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18:08:56 <frosch123> it's just me, you and dorpsgek :)
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18:39:37 <Alberth> hello frosch123 and DorpsGek (and Terkhen)
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19:11:25 <frosch123> let's just declare that unicorns do moo
19:12:38 <Eddi|zuHause> moo3 was totally overhyped, though
19:14:14 <Eddi|zuHause> before i played OpenTTD, i think
19:14:44 <frosch123> a space colonisation game
19:14:59 <frosch123> which involves designing your own species
19:15:03 * andythenorth is resisting ksp
19:15:25 <Eddi|zuHause> the alleged successor to moo2
19:15:28 <frosch123> though it's only know that i realise that you cannot give them horns
19:16:18 <frosch123> isn't arolard already playing that?
19:16:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i'll be playing that
19:19:32 * andythenorth downloads the demo
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19:48:21 <andythenorth> can't figure out KSP
20:03:14 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge
20:08:57 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25143 trunk/src/lang/english.txt (2013-04-04 20:08:52 UTC)
20:08:58 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5496]: several typos/inconsistencies in English strings (Evropi, kazzie)
20:15:57 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25144 trunk/bin/ai/regression/regression.txt (2013-04-04 20:15:51 UTC)
20:15:58 <DorpsGek> -Fix (r25143): one of the changes strings was used in the regression test, which subsequently failed
20:37:48 <Eddi|zuHause> oh we long had no "forgot to update regression" commits :p
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21:02:06 <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r25145 /extra/musa (5 files) (2013-04-04 21:02:00 UTC)
21:02:07 <DorpsGek> [musa] -Add: Support for uploading of AI, AI Library, GS, GS Library, Scenario and Heightmaps using musa
21:05:26 <Steve^> Hi, I would like some suggestions for `complete` train sets that would be good for a single player game
21:07:46 <Zuu> It even have WETRails - ships on rails :-)
21:08:33 <frosch123> yeah, if "complete" is your only criterion
21:08:40 <frosch123> nuts might be the best, it has everything :)
21:08:57 <Steve^> Well, I want something with a set of trains, that are released overtime
21:09:01 <Steve^> like the original set.. but new
21:09:19 <Steve^> Yea.. but.. look at it.... :P
21:09:23 <Eddi|zuHause> probably no other train set is "complete" in the sense of "it contains everything the author intended to include"
21:09:25 <frosch123> about every trainset does that
21:09:52 <Zuu> I've played with NUTS and I kind of like it.
21:10:03 <frosch123> Steve^: you told us no criterion
21:10:09 <Zuu> Otherwise I used to play a lot with UKRS.
21:10:14 <frosch123> there are about 50 trainsets, which could be considered more or less complete
21:11:43 <Steve^> I have only tried one thus far, 2cc, but it gives you.. everything.. it's not very good for a typical playthrough
21:11:55 <Steve^> I wanted some personal perspective on what works well
21:11:59 <frosch123> 2cc has only pax trains :p
21:12:05 <V453000> NUTS and UKRS are best in my opinion as well
21:12:14 <FLHerne> Steve^: UKRS2 (and UKRS2+) is awesome
21:12:22 <Steve^> Otherwise I can browser forum topics and pick at random
21:12:35 <Steve^> but many forum topics don't have first posts that sell the products
21:12:41 <FLHerne> I quite like NARS, but it hasn't been worked on for a while and has a few quirks
21:12:55 <FLHerne> Steve^: Have you seen the screenshot subforum?
21:12:58 <V453000> nobody needs to sell any product here Steve^ :)
21:13:12 <frosch123> V453000: esp. not you :p
21:13:19 <FLHerne> That tends to have good examples of most grfs in use ;-)
21:13:47 <Steve^> The Japan Railways set looks well constructed
21:14:48 <V453000> japan is fun but is really passenger only ... cargo trains are nice but slow which tends to be boring
21:15:11 <V453000> if you wanted to see what NUTS contains, see nuts.openttdcoop.org
21:15:12 <Steve^> hmm, I was thinking going cargo - this is exactly the info I'm looking for! :)
21:15:47 <FLHerne> V453000: Cargo is *meant* to be slow! :P
21:16:01 <V453000> that is realistic bullshit
21:16:02 <FLHerne> If you want fast cargo, send it by helicopter :P
21:16:12 <V453000> it is very balanced. :)
21:16:25 <Steve^> balanced is unrealistic, I suppose :)
21:16:36 <FLHerne> V453000: Realism =/= bullshit
21:16:41 <V453000> that is what the U stands for
21:16:45 <V453000> NUTS Unrealistic Train Set
21:16:56 <V453000> FLHerne: realism == bullshit ^ 2
21:17:12 <FLHerne> V453000: You're a little bit biased there :P
21:17:34 <V453000> if you say that cargo trains are meant to be slow because reason 0, it is b.s.
21:17:47 <V453000> because variety of speeds and faster trains are more entertaining in the game
21:18:00 <V453000> you dont have to do toyland? :d it is just an option
21:18:06 <frosch123> Steve^: toyland is very nice with a non-default landscape set
21:18:18 <FLHerne> V453000: Cargo should be slow because it's fun to watch trains overtake other trains :-)
21:18:27 <frosch123> toyland is way underrated
21:18:29 <V453000> frosch123: toyland without ttd baseset isnt toyland but temperate :s
21:18:44 <V453000> FLHerne: mixing train speeds is quite stupid
21:18:59 <frosch123> V453000: toyland with ttd baseset is only playable if you are colorblind
21:19:05 <V453000> but if you hate toyland landscape and colours and stuff, use toyland to mars conversion :)
21:19:19 <V453000> frosch123: I play that rather often and I am not colourblind (yet) :))
21:19:31 <frosch123> the terrain is way too checked to look at it without tearing eyes
21:19:55 * FLHerne loves having Fast and Slow lines, and then agonising over how to arrange fast freight and stopping pax
21:20:09 <frosch123> V453000: i love the toy factory way too much
21:20:21 <frosch123> note that the ogfx toyshop is way better than the ttd one
21:20:29 <FLHerne> V453000: Stupid from ultimate-throughput-at-all-costs perspective, but not all ;-)
21:20:30 <frosch123> yellow ducks are way cuter than grey robots
21:20:55 <frosch123> are they? maybe they are company coloured then
21:21:02 <V453000> who was talking about ultimate throughput, if your stuff jams it just jams
21:21:26 * frosch123 starts ottd to check
21:22:10 <FLHerne> V453000: Speed differentials don't cause jamming. If you timetable it properly, they don't even cause excessive stop/starting
21:22:12 <V453000> I even drew those as a cargo... :)
21:22:27 <FLHerne> Just poor throughput, which is rarely an issue
21:22:44 <V453000> if you timetable it properly it means you are timetabling a speed limit, meaning it is not mixing speeds. timetabling by a time fails sooner or later
21:24:23 <Zuu> or human looking plastic toy
21:24:55 <V453000> something red with yellow decoration and pink eye. :)
21:25:24 <Steve^> they look so ridiculous
21:26:23 <FLHerne> V453000: Have you actually tried? :P
21:27:04 * FLHerne gets very few serious network issues caused by trains catching each other up
21:27:25 <V453000> about 4 years ago, perhaps once, yes. Logically there are so many randomizers in openttd that timetabling is just dumb
21:27:41 <V453000> sooner or later the line will be full anyway
21:27:46 <V453000> if not, you are doing something wrong
21:28:23 <frosch123> hmm, they look nothing like i remembered them
21:28:30 <FLHerne> Make sure there's a big gap timetabled between a slow train and the following fast one, such that the fast one doesn't overtake the slow before the next loop :P
21:28:54 <FLHerne> Breakdowns off, of course, else the timetable is meaningless :-/
21:29:05 <V453000> you cant afford a big gap if you want to have more than just a few trains
21:29:14 <V453000> which is what just a handful of industries requires
21:29:19 <V453000> so idk if you are playing without traffic or how
21:29:47 <V453000> or even a single grown industry
21:30:06 <V453000> not even talking about whole towns
21:31:31 <FLHerne> Really? I don't shift OTTDcoop levels of cargo (or even close), but certainly not just a few dozen crates wobbling about...
21:31:44 <V453000> this isnt about openttdcoop at all
21:31:56 <V453000> industries behave everywhere the same
21:32:08 <V453000> everybody gets high producing industries
21:32:57 <frosch123> not when you play on 256x128 maps
21:32:57 <V453000> if you have, say, 5 mines and each of them produces average of 500 (still relatively low but enough to illustrate), you definitely cannot get away with gaps on a single line
21:33:03 <FLHerne> V453000: Simile. They have a reputation for insane transport quantities :D
21:33:05 <frosch123> the game is over before they reach higher levels
21:33:06 <V453000> presumably you do not play with 5 but 50 mines
21:33:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never had high-producing industries unless they randomly started out that way
21:33:27 <V453000> you can say you instead of they :)
21:33:42 <V453000> how can the game be over ... :z
21:33:46 <FLHerne> V453000: Nah, my mines produce about 200 each, and I serve a couple of dozen :P
21:33:56 <frosch123> V453000: when you have everything connected
21:33:58 <Eddi|zuHause> "you can say you to me" (common joke in german)
21:34:09 <frosch123> which is possible on 256x128
21:34:24 <V453000> firs grows a lot faster than original actually if you supply correctly
21:34:39 <V453000> when you have everything connected it isnt game over at all :(
21:34:51 <V453000> jams should appear pretty soon at that point
21:34:54 <FLHerne> Mostly I end up serving a couple of secondaries of each type, and FIRS being FIRS normally end up with an inter-secondary network too
21:35:21 <FLHerne> V453000: I supply as many supplies as needed to get the highest production rate my line will support ;-)
21:35:51 <V453000> and after the one line isnt enough?
21:35:52 <FLHerne> If I feel like building a new line, I can always do that and then supply a few more supplies...
21:36:04 <frosch123> V453000: i think you underestimate how little there is on small maps
21:36:16 <V453000> frosch123: dont want me to show you some small maps
21:36:22 <FLHerne> V453000: If the one line isn't enough and I don't feel like building another right then, I supply less supplies
21:36:44 <V453000> well yeah but what do you do in the game then if you just reduce amount of supplies
21:36:50 <FLHerne> There isn't an obligation to ALWAYS SHUFFLE MOAR CARGO! :P
21:36:53 <V453000> if you dont want to build you might as well go outside
21:36:57 <Eddi|zuHause> on the last small map i played, i got exactly one of each FIRS industry
21:37:13 <FLHerne> V453000: I like to build realistic, aesthetically pleasing networks
21:37:26 <FLHerne> Not necessarily high-throughput ones
21:37:32 <Eddi|zuHause> but i always end up spending 90% of the time transporting passengers :/
21:37:46 <V453000> what does realistic mean, how does it define the network
21:38:23 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: not abusing infrastructure for logic, for example.
21:38:31 <FLHerne> If I say "that's a nice mountain pass, more track through there would look unrealistic", I'm not obliged to accept extra traffic and so need to build more...
21:39:09 <frosch123> V453000: the hall of fame only lists 256x256 games
21:39:41 <V453000> that isnt a requirement to do Eddi
21:39:51 <FLHerne> I *like* looking at squiggly lines up the side of mountains. I don't care that demolishing the whole thing to build a 20-line inter-hub ML with sideline prio-mergers would be more efficient, because the amount of cargo I move is irrelevant
21:40:06 <FLHerne> s/thing/mountain range/
21:40:22 <V453000> well, we define limits for where to build and where not to build as well, just go around the mountain then?
21:40:47 <FLHerne> V453000: But then I wouldn't get to look at the squiggly line going up and over it :D
21:41:05 <V453000> you would, you can keep that line :)
21:41:10 <V453000> I mean go around with the rest
21:41:24 <V453000> (the extra tracks which do not fit there :P)
21:41:50 <FLHerne> V453000: But why bother building them at all?
21:42:22 <V453000> cause the game is about building stuff? :D
21:42:52 <FLHerne> V453000: But with the time I spent building that, I could build more squiggly, unproductive branchlines :D
21:44:53 <FLHerne> And yes, those are 45mph Tube trains sharing a short bit of track with 125mph HSTs :P
21:44:54 <V453000> the second one is cute, but when I see the first screenshot I really think "how retarded can you be by screenshotting literally 1 track with 1 train"
21:45:09 <FLHerne> V453000: Fair enough. But I liked that train.
21:45:19 <Steve^> I remember when TT didn't have a D, or signals
21:45:21 <V453000> what do you like on that? :D
21:45:25 <frosch123> psg#229 is 64x256, but it is a rv game
21:45:39 <V453000> 256x256 is smallest train game you will find frosch
21:46:08 <FLHerne> Dunno really, watching two saddle tanks struggle up a hill at 5mph is just funny :-)
21:46:47 <V453000> I understand that it is funny for once or twice, but watching it for 5 years would make me mildly bored
21:47:03 <Eddi|zuHause> TT had signals, but only the most simple ones
21:47:32 <FLHerne> V453000: I'd go off and build something a bit more useful, and then they'd be a nice contrast :-)
21:47:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i actually built very efficient one-way tracks with those signals
21:48:10 <Eddi|zuHause> but the system was pretty fragile
21:48:26 <V453000> what do you mean by that? :d
21:48:40 <V453000> been there did that :>
21:48:46 <FLHerne> V453000: Was that at me, or Eddi?
21:49:45 <V453000> first at you, what do you mean by contrast
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21:52:31 <FLHerne> V453000: I can look at (say) Garratts trundling on 9-tile coal trains, and those little things pootling about, and think "Ah, those trains look so small and inefficient next to that other one" :-)
21:53:37 <FLHerne> And then build some A4s to zip around the place at relatively stupid speeds, and compare 'heavy and slow' with 'lightweight and fast, but low capacity'
21:53:54 <V453000> well, whatever ... but I will give you one thing. Even though I do not understand how is it possible that you enjoy watching that for years, you are the first person who was able to describe it sensibly to me
21:54:11 <FLHerne> And then have a lot of fun figuring out how to avoid the expresses stopping behind coal trains constantly
21:54:57 <Eddi|zuHause> because of the ridiculous amounts of passengers generated by the game, that never works out for me
21:55:01 <FLHerne> ...and then semi-fast pax trains, which have to be kept out of the way of the expresses but still overtake the coal...
21:55:18 <V453000> indeed Eddi ... but yeah :)
21:55:23 <FLHerne> ...and stopping pax, which have to be timed to meet branch trains at junctions...
21:55:39 <FLHerne> ...and fast containerised freight, and fish trains etc
21:56:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and timetables miss some important macromanagement functions
21:56:26 <FLHerne> Just keeping them all runing in an interlinked way while preventing the whole mess from collapsing is one of the most enjoyable things
21:56:43 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: True. Better macro-timetabling would be awesome
21:57:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the most obvious ones are "fill this timetable with sanely guessed default values" and "move this vehicle forward or backward X ticks/days/minutes"
22:00:08 <FLHerne> I really liked that patch that added "Send one train of this group out from x station every x days". Saved a bit of hassle with start dates
22:04:45 <V453000> any discoveries Steve^ ? :)
22:06:46 <V453000> nuts works everywhere :)
22:07:00 <Steve^> but then since I don't feel much for the trains, I might use the same variety forever
22:08:49 <V453000> well, you cant do everything at first immediately :P
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