IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-03-22
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08:10:22 <malin> how can I edit a new grf-file ?
08:10:30 <malin> I am running Ubuntu 12.04
08:43:27 <planetmaker> they're binary files, malin
08:43:42 <malin> planetmaker: ah, så it's impossible?
08:43:55 <planetmaker> your best bet is, if the source to your newgrf is available. Then get that and compile it after having made modifications
08:44:10 <planetmaker> the 2nd option is to de-compile it and then try to edit the de-compiled newgrf
08:44:42 <malin> I think the very large ships is unrealistic. Their costs is too high and always have a large losses
08:45:03 <malin> ah. I see. I don't have the source for very large ships. I like the capacity, but not the high costs
08:45:36 <planetmaker> the 3rd option actually is to write an add-on newgrf which modifies aspects of another newgrf
08:45:50 <planetmaker> that has the advantage that you don't run into licensing issues
08:47:49 <malin> I see. I really don't know how to do it. how to make grf's
08:50:01 <malin> ok. thanx. I will take a look, and maybe it's not so difficult
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09:16:49 <malin> I think someone made such a grf already, so I installed it instead. thanx anyway
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11:39:46 <malin> how can I have a singeltrack an allowing multiple trains in the same direction on the single track without a train coming in the oposite direction causing the trains to crash or stopping in front of each others?
11:43:26 <MNIM> just make sure there's always one exit at each end when there's trains waiting
11:45:40 <MNIM> oh right, in the same direction?
11:46:04 <MNIM> then disregard previous statement.
11:46:06 <malin> multiple trains in the same direction, but preventing them to meet in the middle
11:46:44 <MNIM> I assume you still want to allow trains coming in from the opposite direction?
11:52:07 <MNIM> 'cause in that case it's not possible without risking deadlocks
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12:07:38 <malin> yes, but I don't want them to come in from the opposite direction if ther are trains comming towards them
12:07:52 <malin> that will cause crash or the trains just standing there looking at each other
12:08:48 <malin> so It's actually not possible? That's not very realistic, but if it is not possible I have to build more meeting tracks
12:18:53 <planetmaker> malin, I did not get what you want really. But likely there are solutions... though two-way tracks work badly due to how path finders work. But it does work in principle as long as you got a direction exclusively dedicated to on direction as well
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14:35:31 <peter1139> it's not really an AI is it?
14:36:23 <Flygon> Ristovski: The Australian Victorian Government must be in chare
14:37:11 <Flygon> Also, Australian keyboards lack accented letters >_>
14:59:31 <malin> planetmaker: what I want is the possibility to have several trains in one direction at the same time (singel track)
14:59:54 <malin> if a train comes the oposite direction it should wait where there is a double-track
15:00:35 <Ristovski> iirc there is a tutorial on exactly what you want on the wiki
15:03:53 <Ristovski> planetmaker: why is there a "give money" option for players in the same company?
15:05:43 <malin> Ristovski: can you show me that wiki? I have tried a lot of combinations, but it never worked
15:06:59 <goodger> I don't think it's possible unless you are happy for the opposing train to wait until the entire single section is clear
15:11:51 <malin> goodger: that's my experience as well. I think it is a waste of time letting a train waint when it could have used the same track as the train before it
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15:53:34 <malin> Ristovski: the first example in the wiki will allow one train in one direction (in the single-track) at the time
15:56:38 <malin> but how can multiple trains go into the same single-track (when they are going the same direction) ? there is a lot of capacity for that
15:57:14 <malin> and having the train going the other way to wait at a double section of the trainline
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16:22:00 <Pinkbeast> malin: There is no good way to have a single-track line, used in both directions, which allows more than one train to travel in the same direction at one time. (Sorry).
16:23:04 <Pinkbeast> You probably wouldn't want that anyway because of the possibility that frequent trains in direction A would completely lock out trains in direction B, unless there was a way to stop admitting trains in one direction when one arrived wanting the other direction.
16:24:07 <ntoskrnl> malin: what if two trains are running on the track and the leading one has a breakdown? BOOM.
16:27:19 <Pinkbeast> michi: "no good way" - that has the lockout issue.
16:32:12 <V453000> those PBS layouts are so wtf :D
16:32:59 <Pinkbeast> I don't really believe in having tracks used in both directions - outside termini and middle platforms on both-way stations aside
16:33:19 <goodger> there reaches a point where OTTD signal layouts start to resemble "I have my editor programmed to recognise a sudden rise in core temp as META" type hackery
16:33:44 <Pinkbeast> I think the "this track is not for trains to run down but as a signal wire into a block-based layout" stuff is closer to that. :-/
16:39:30 <malin> ntoskrnl: that will mean boom, I guess
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16:41:50 <Der_Herr> i think i found a bug in station coverage calculation, can someone try to confirm it?
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18:20:15 <maan> hello fellow openttd'ers
18:21:26 <maan> I have tried to get to grips with using 32bpp graphics but still cannot get mu head around it ;)
18:21:58 <maan> hello again lordaro hope you are well my friend
18:26:02 <maan> does any1 know the best version of openttd to use
18:27:11 <Elukka> "On day two of the 2013 Embedded Linux Conference, Robert Rose of SpaceX spoke about the "Lessons Learned Developing Software for Space Vehicles"."
18:27:14 <Elukka> "When the build fails, it should "fail loudly" with a "monitor that starts flashing red" and email to everyone on the team. When that happens, you should "respond immediately" to fix the problem. In his team, they have a full-size Justin Bieber cutout that gets placed facing the team member who broke the build. They found that "100% of software engineers don't like Justin Bieber", and will
18:27:14 <Elukka> work quickly to fix the build problem."
18:27:43 <maan> i have v1.3.0 is that any good for 32bpp
18:28:23 <V453000> just download zbase and let your eyes bleed
18:30:00 <maan> i have zbase too yipeeeeeeee
18:30:48 <V453000> I wouldnt call that a win but ... :)
18:31:46 <lordaro> Elukka: cruel, but effective :)
18:32:36 <maan> i have downloaded some saved games and they have better ground tiles than mine, why?
18:33:40 <maan> of course, now why didn't i think of that :)
18:36:56 <maan> if you don't know then god help us lol
18:40:21 <Alberth> you'd think a supremal being would have other things to do
18:41:00 <maan> thanks for the compliment but its not necessary
18:43:19 <maan> where in linux does it store the actual program files for OTT?
18:45:15 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25113 trunk/src/lang/serbian.txt (2013-03-22 18:45:07 UTC)
18:45:16 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:17 <DorpsGek> serbian - 18 changes by ivan_mile
18:52:02 <maan> sorry had to reboot - now where was we
18:54:23 <supermop> Hmm there should be a depot grf that looks like the FIRS machine shop, so I can pretend that the machine shop is building my locomotives
18:54:46 <supermop> if only there was someone who made eyecandy depot grfs around here.....
18:55:53 <Alberth> someone exists, but he is very busy, he has so many requests...
18:56:22 <maan> I bet - we all would like new grf's to use
18:57:13 <maan> does any1 know where linux stores the program files for OTT?
18:58:10 <Alberth> where-ever you put it, usually
18:58:36 <lordaro> ~/.openttd, if you're talking about downloadable content
18:58:36 <Alberth> there is no single place
18:58:48 <lordaro> i believe the readme.txt has more info
18:59:02 <lordaro> (although i guess you don't know where that is either :L )
18:59:06 <Alberth> lordaro: sure, don't know what this OTT thing is he talks about
18:59:15 <maan> that the diff between linux and windows
18:59:45 <maan> OTT = OpenTTD - ok i missed the D off soz about that
18:59:54 <Alberth> nah, the main difference is that linux is stable :)
19:00:15 <Alberth> but really, it depends on how you installed it
19:00:27 <supermop> i guess that self deprecating joke was lost on the audience
19:00:37 <Alberth> you can ask the system though: which openttd
19:01:12 <maan> thats handy to know thanks Alberth
19:01:58 <Alberth> maan: it's a standard unix command, it pays to know them, or at least what kind of commands exist :)
19:03:16 <Alberth> maan: you have to try harder to go off-topic here :)
19:03:30 <Ristovski> maan: need any help?
19:03:58 * lordaro doesn't actually have ottd 'installed'
19:04:49 <Alberth> 'install' is overrated :)
19:04:56 <lordaro> i run it from it's own directory :)
19:05:16 <Alberth> yes, just drop the files at some convenient place is enough :)
19:05:17 <maan> how do you send private msg?
19:05:21 *** lordaro is now known as LordAro
19:05:43 <Alberth> you're less bold now :)
19:05:58 <Ristovski> yeah, compiling OTTD is better
19:06:41 <LordAro> convenient folder + autoupdate script > install
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19:08:02 <maan> dont get too technical pls guys :D
19:08:38 <Ristovski> maan: and then you download the source code, run the configure script, run make, and install any missing pkgs by "apt-get install"
19:08:55 <Ristovski> that wasnt very technical actually... D:
19:09:32 <maan> saying it like that looks too easy ;)
19:09:40 <Ristovski> it is easy actually
19:10:08 <Alberth> at least on OSes that come with a compiler environment :)
19:10:16 <Ristovski> on linux, if you want to install from source, most of the times you download the zipped folder, extract, run a script called "configure" and then type "make"
19:10:37 <LordAro> "download the zipped folder" pfft. noob
19:10:47 <Ristovski> LordAro: fiine, use git
19:10:53 <maan> well thats something for me to look into then
19:12:10 <maan> I am learning with linux and sooo much to learn
19:12:42 <Alberth> maan: that's mostly useful when you want to play bleeding edge versions, multi-player requires the exact same version for all players, making it much less useful to have random versions
19:15:17 <maan> I use to be able to join multi-player but know using a beta version I now cant, must be I need the same version as the others then
19:16:01 <Ristovski> you need the same version as the server is running
19:20:38 <LordAro> Alberth: (re: bold) how odd. i only changed my nick from lower case (in irssi, at least) to 'normal' case :L
19:21:33 <maan> maybe yr running a diff client to the rest of us pmsl
19:22:19 <Alberth> maan: every client does things differently, ie that change was at my end :)
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20:02:13 <michi_cc> Der_Herr: Coverage areas are different for acceptance and pickup. Acceptance is calculated from the pov of the station (i.e. rectangle around the whole station) while pickup is calculated from the pov of the industries (and is in the shape of the station).
20:14:20 <frosch123> it's easier to implement like that efficiently, and has always been like that since then
20:20:22 <V453000> may I ask why not ? :DD
20:58:21 <ZxBiohazardZx> suggestional: is it possible to limit purchase of vehicles by cargotype
20:58:30 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka vehicle limit per type instead of total traincount
21:09:47 <Alberth> buy with another cargotype, then refit :)
21:10:02 <Alberth> or do auto-refit magic
21:15:12 <Zuu> Write a GS that first warns and then punish if someone passes the limit.
21:16:33 <ZxBiohazardZx> i mean currently on multiplayer it claims "vehicle limit reached"
21:16:49 <ZxBiohazardZx> intention is: "only allow purchasing of type X " (openttd coop atm, but it goes for more games)
21:21:50 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25114 /trunk/src/game (3 files) (2013-03-22 21:21:45 UTC)
21:21:51 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5509]: GS lang files did not work, when inside a tar.
21:24:33 <Zuu> If you only want a certain vehicle type available in the game, then use a NewGRF that limit the vehicle selection.
21:24:47 <ZxBiohazardZx> i want the vehicle limit to be more dynamic
21:25:01 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka if max limit reached for wagons of type X stop allowing them
21:25:14 <ZxBiohazardZx> currently you set max rail, max truck, max boat if im not mistaken
21:25:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> i want set max <cargo-type> wagons
21:25:57 <ZxBiohazardZx> and then be able to upgrade the limit via configs like you can for vehicles
21:26:17 <Zuu> If you want to use what currently exist, then you can use a GS that analyze number of vehicles of type X etc. A GS can however not (currently) affect if a vehicle can be bought or not in the buy menu. A GS however can destroy some water tiles on behalf of you if it feels like taking some money from you.
21:27:19 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25115 /trunk/src (4 files in 3 dirs) (2013-03-22 21:27:13 UTC)
21:27:20 <DorpsGek> -Fix (r8973) [FS#5492-ish]: [NewGRF] Acceleration of NewGRF aircraft was too fast, while acceleration of default aircraft was way too slow. I.e. choose wisely who to let write the software for your orbiter.
21:27:44 <ZxBiohazardZx> so Zuu again feature request;)
21:27:51 <Zuu> Of course it can give a message when the limit is reached and later a warning if the limit is exceeded and then only as a final enforcment give you a fine if you don't follow its warning.
21:28:10 <ZxBiohazardZx> its not currently possible, edit/change the behaviour feature is suggested/requested :p
21:31:48 <Alberth> imho restricting on cargo-type makes no sense in the context of (auto-)refit
21:32:32 <V453000> it doesnt make too much sense in any context tbh :)
21:33:28 <Alberth> it sounds like a limit just to annoy the player to me
21:33:56 <V453000> well on our server it would have *some* usage, as the game progresses you want to focus on some cargoes
21:34:13 <V453000> but the players should be able to detect that themselves so I wouldnt say such control is helpful
21:35:04 <Alberth> ZxBiohazardZx: the simplest approach is probably to write a GS that monitors it, and decides a player is losing when he crosses the limit
21:35:18 <ZxBiohazardZx> fair enough Alberth
21:35:27 <Alberth> ie put the problem on the user too
21:35:30 <ZxBiohazardZx> just a suggestion
21:36:16 <ZxBiohazardZx> @Shauren meh not gonna happen, unless you fix ICC gunship, i cant put the NPCs on a non-existing ship.....
21:36:23 <ZxBiohazardZx> eehm my bad, diff chan/irc
21:36:38 <Alberth> even suggestions have to make sense as Tycoon limit :)
21:40:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> i stumbled upon a nice CBA
21:40:18 <ZxBiohazardZx> still has issues ofc :p
21:40:34 <ZxBiohazardZx> also what happened to IS and trunk, never happening, might happen if, or?
21:42:39 <michi_cc> Infrastructure sharing has several open design issues that would need solutions first.
21:45:54 <Zuu> Where sharing of tracks is probably the easier part. Sharing of stations opens up for payment problems that are harder to leave up to the players to solve.
21:46:40 <michi_cc> Sharing of tracks is hard I think because it opens up heaps of opportunities to grief other players.
21:48:18 <michi_cc> Payment has some griefing issues (what happens if it never acutally gets delivered) but is otherwise more a coding problem.
21:51:23 <Zuu> With track sharing there will be some grief possibilities. Designing a IS solution where there is zero risk to enter a track share agreement is very hard. But if one realize that and tries to something well enough, the remaining issues would need to be resolved with trust among players.
21:52:51 <Zuu> As long as a player can opt to stay out of IS and not getting hurt that is no worse than players being forced to not use road or water transport in MP due to the grefing risks with that.
21:53:17 <V453000> playing in one company is the solution anyway
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21:54:23 <HellTiger> hello. where can i see the building cost, for airport for example?
21:54:50 <ZxBiohazardZx> it will pop up a red box with estimate cost to build it on that location
22:04:31 <frosch123> anyone knows the peek-acceleration of his/her car in mph per day? :p
22:30:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> peak accelleration in mph per day?
22:31:01 <ZxBiohazardZx> question is vague
22:31:43 <frosch123> rb would probably have suggested furlong per fortnight^2 instead
22:32:50 <HellTiger> is there any more strict tutorial? i am beginner, and i dont know what kind of industry i could connect to a city
22:34:46 <Zuu> HellTiger: Did you try the Beginner tutorial?
22:34:57 <Zuu> The one that is downloaded from online content.
22:35:02 <HellTiger> ye, i have build bus train and plain.
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22:35:15 <HellTiger> didnt tried the ingame one yet
22:35:30 <frosch123> it's a scenario with instructions
22:35:34 <Zuu> It doesn't do rail yet but it covers ship, bus and aircraft.
22:35:49 <HellTiger> is it more complex like the wiki one?
22:35:56 <HellTiger> i just wana some inspiration what i could do
22:35:58 <Zuu> It highlights the buttons to click etc. and provide instructions.
22:36:05 <HellTiger> should be logical but i still dunno what to do
22:37:02 <HellTiger> should i make busstation to farms?
22:37:08 <HellTiger> or only goods transport?
22:37:54 <Zuu> Use truck stops to load cattle and grain from farms.
22:38:07 <Zuu> Bus stops are only used for passenger transport.
22:38:21 <Zuu> Or Public Transport as its known outside fo the game :-)
22:38:32 <HellTiger> now i see the chain
22:39:27 <HellTiger> i transport farm goods to factory and then from factory to city.
22:40:05 <Der_Herr> cities accept primarly passengers and goods
22:40:33 <Der_Herr> forget about the goods
22:40:51 <Der_Herr> cities accept goods if they reach a certain size
22:41:22 <Der_Herr> if you want to place a trainstation the menu shows you what goods it can accept
22:45:55 <HellTiger> another thing, if i go away for a hour and not pause the game, will it be fucked?
22:46:09 <HellTiger> i only have a airport and bus stations yet, they are rated very good
22:46:29 <HellTiger> oah there are special renderer frosch123. can u name it?
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22:49:20 <HellTiger> where can i see how many cargo a destination can take
22:49:42 <frosch123> if you are using the default industries, then it is unlimited
22:50:34 <HellTiger> now can you tell me if i should use pause often?
22:50:57 <frosch123> do you pause when playing starcraft to increase your apm?
22:51:04 <frosch123> or do you use hotkeys? :p
22:51:34 <frosch123> anyway, it's completely up to you, how you like to play the game :p
22:51:38 <HellTiger> i alrdy pause while every thing i do
22:51:44 <frosch123> whether you want to play it slow, or like a rts :p
22:51:55 <HellTiger> i dont know the winning condition
22:52:04 <HellTiger> i wana let my small things run and be afk some time
22:52:07 <HellTiger> i wonder what will happen
22:52:40 <frosch123> unless you run a gamescript, ottd is mostly a sandbox game, where you set your own goals
22:53:03 <frosch123> however, if you let it just run, you might encounter stuff like missed engine renewals etc
22:53:12 <frosch123> unless you use settings where engine age does not matter
22:53:40 <HellTiger> its just as default install yet.
22:53:51 <frosch123> also, if you start in early years, you will miss all technical progression
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22:54:49 <HellTiger> thats enough to know :D
22:56:11 <HellTiger> ah in the tutorial i had a 3 plattform length railstation but a 5 rail car with lokomotive
22:56:33 <HellTiger> should i have 7 plattforms for 7 cars?
22:56:55 <frosch123> the train should not be longer than the platform
22:57:05 <frosch123> else you get quite some penalty time when loading
22:57:20 <Der_Herr> it works, but loading and unloading is slower
22:58:27 <HellTiger> i can make a 7 plattform and connect onle one square?
22:59:53 <HellTiger> looks like they can be far awas
23:00:13 <HellTiger> i thought the white squares have to connect directly to building
23:00:45 <Der_Herr> the coverage area show the total area in which the station has influence
23:01:25 <Der_Herr> if you want to gather many passengers and there is only one house in the area you get a quite low rate
23:01:33 <HellTiger> i can se delivered products now from two buildings
23:01:36 <Der_Herr> but if you want to deliver passengers it does not matter
23:02:07 <HellTiger> i tried to reach as much as possible for both bus stations yet
23:03:32 <Der_Herr> but double coverage does no generate more passengers
23:03:42 <HellTiger> hm how do i filter cargo
23:03:47 <HellTiger> i wana only oil in this train
23:05:21 <Der_Herr> you cant define it in the timetable
23:11:21 <HellTiger> i had only oil tanks
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23:39:09 <HellTiger> Der_Herr: how did you archive the info about bus stops? for me its not logical that the destination could only have one house
23:40:21 <Der_Herr> as far as i know the buildings work as source and their generated passengers per month are randomly distributed
23:40:36 <Der_Herr> but maybe you can read about that topic in the wiki
23:41:34 <HellTiger> oh didnt thought yet to make a bus to another city, is this good Der_Herr?
23:42:26 <Der_Herr> your profit is generated by the amount of passengers you transported and the duration of the transport
23:43:27 <Der_Herr> as most busses (especially in the beginning) are very slow and also transport very few passengers you get more profit with larger trains in short time
23:43:53 <Der_Herr> also the distance between start and destination station is very important
23:43:53 <HellTiger> Der_Herr: i got a subsidy from a mine to a city, i think a bus will hit it? its pretty far!
23:44:33 <Der_Herr> a general good advice is to use very (really very) long distance trains
23:45:02 <Der_Herr> although the time per transit increases, they paid rates increase much more
23:45:16 <HellTiger> i should react to most subsidy then?
23:45:44 <HellTiger> hard to calculate yet, if its profitable
23:45:52 <Der_Herr> most probably it will
23:46:00 <HellTiger> yet its a personal transport, could be poor
23:46:11 <Der_Herr> but you get a subsidy only for a specific amount of time
23:46:27 <Der_Herr> so after 2 years or so you get double rates
23:46:55 <Der_Herr> but normally you do only very few roundtrips within those 2 years
23:47:16 <Der_Herr> Der_Herr so after 2 years or so you get double rates <-- not double, only normal
23:49:20 <HellTiger> maybe double cost then :D
23:57:22 <HellTiger> for subsidy, is it equal to assign last mentioned target first?
23:59:18 <Der_Herr> i dont know, i think yes
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