IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-02-03
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00:22:30 <__ln__> what, they made a tv series of Tron?
00:22:58 <Supercheese>
00:22:58 <NGC3982> I had no idea.
00:23:05 <NGC3982>
00:23:11 <NGC3982> Ooh. Oooh.. :/
00:23:31 <__ln__> but.. is it animation, just with famous voices.
00:24:43 <NGC3982> And it's Disney XD.
00:24:44 <Supercheese> Because it's Disney, I presume it's localized in dozens of languages, too
00:24:58 <__ln__> NGC3982: Tron has always been Disney.
00:25:17 <NGC3982> You don't understand
00:25:23 <Supercheese> Disney XD...
00:25:24 <NGC3982> The series aired on Disney DX.
00:25:27 <NGC3982> XD*.
00:25:30 <NGC3982> That means alot.
00:27:10 <__ln__> I was watching Tron Legacy in a cinema when it was new, starting something like 9pm.. They were playing some children's songs in the cinema before the movie started. Because it's Disney.
00:27:40 <NGC3982> Yes, and that is not so far from logic when it comes to Disney productions.
00:27:55 <frosch123> night
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00:28:00 <NGC3982> Though, since it aired on Disney XD, it means the series is intended for people between 6 and 14.
00:28:06 <NGC3982> -6 and 14.
00:28:29 <NGC3982> +most people a third your age.
00:28:59 <__ln__> Another, more interesting series is this new House of Cards on Netflix, made by Netflix.
00:29:09 <NGC3982> Oh
00:29:11 <NGC3982> Wait what.
00:29:11 <NGC3982> :D
00:29:24 <__ln__> Not sure if it can be called a "tv" series since it's exlusively on Netflix.
00:30:18 <__ln__> Starring Kevin Spacey. They released the whole season at once, no need to wait for episodes to appear. That's new.
00:30:29 <Supercheese> Whoah, that is new
00:30:33 <NGC3982> Yeah
00:30:43 <NGC3982> Actually quite odd.
00:30:57 <Supercheese> Yeah, I cannot recall any series releasing all at once before
00:31:38 <NGC3982> I guess Netflix people know how we nerds look at series these days
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00:32:18 <NGC3982> Aaand sleep. Night guys.
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00:36:57 <Eddi|zuHause> a propos "all at once", what actually happened to this star wars series where they wanted to produce 100 episodes before publishing it? last i heard was "we have some scripts, but each of the episodes would cost a whole movie budget like this"
00:37:16 <Wolf01> 'night
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00:42:56 <__ln__> i don't suppose you mean the star wars holiday special?
00:43:30 <NGC3982> I just woked up again
00:43:36 <NGC3982> Since something very evil was mentioned
00:43:58 <NGC3982> Something so evil quantum movements woke me up and dragged me back to IRC to tell you:
00:45:09 <NGC3982> The Star Wars Holiday Special is an abomination, and is probably responsible for the K-T Extinction, the Bubonic Plague and every war. Ever.
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01:10:02 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: no, it was a fairly recent thing
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01:11:37 <Eddi|zuHause>
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01:30:31 <__ln__> interesting, i hadn't heard about that one.
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01:55:42 <questions> is anyone there
01:56:16 <Supercheese> People are here
01:56:35 <questions> does openttd work on android
01:56:55 <Supercheese> Yes:
01:57:16 <Supercheese> You can get it from Google Play store
01:57:51 <questions> is the maker of that one the same as here
01:58:17 <Supercheese> No, it's technically an unofficial port, by a fellow known as Pelya
01:59:03 <questions> ya but is that one safe like this one
01:59:23 <Supercheese> The OTTD on the Google Play store is fine, I use it
01:59:48 <questions> no bugs or backdoor issues
02:00:20 <Supercheese> There is one known bug with something called an "S pen"
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02:00:39 <Supercheese> some kind of stylus-thingy I guess
02:01:02 <questions> sorry but never hear of it
02:01:11 <Supercheese> me neither, until the bug was reported
02:01:52 <questions> how well does it work with touch screen 10 in touchpad
02:02:08 <Supercheese> That's what I have, and while it doesn't hold a candle to mouse+keyboard, it's playable
02:03:23 <questions> is that one close enough to openttd pc to learn play
02:03:48 <Supercheese> If you're just learning how to play OpenTTD, I would highly recommend using a mouse and keyboard
02:04:06 <questions> i used to be a major fan of trans tycoon long ago
02:04:22 <Supercheese> Or, well, mouse-only would be better than a touchscreen, even
02:04:26 <questions> way before this open one
02:04:37 <Supercheese> OpenTTD is everything Transport Tycoon has and much, much more
02:05:00 <questions> it sounds like it
02:05:52 <questions> is the google one have tutorials so i can relearn while watching tv
02:06:13 <Supercheese> The tutorial should work, IIRC
02:06:38 <Supercheese> You have to downloaded the Tutorial, it won't come by default
02:07:04 <questions> where would that be
02:07:11 <Supercheese> I'm checking, just a sec
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02:08:13 <Supercheese> Looks like from the main menu, you have to go:
02:08:25 <Supercheese> AI/Gamescript Settings --> Check Online Content --> Beginner Tutorial
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02:09:25 <questions> sorry but froim what main menu
02:09:31 <Supercheese> the OpenTTD main menu
02:10:14 <questions> from the pc not android?
02:10:22 <Supercheese> either one
02:10:44 <questions> let me see if i can find it
02:11:00 <Supercheese> You'll obviously need to install OpenTTD on the Android device first
02:11:57 <questions> you mean the one from google play?
02:13:47 <Supercheese> yes
02:13:53 <questions> ok
02:14:14 <questions> thanks
02:14:37 <Supercheese> Google Play should install the base program, and the first time you run OpenTTD on the android device, it will download some more required data
02:14:38 <questions> one last question please
02:15:34 <questions> is there some kind of pointing device for tablet like a mouse or something
02:16:07 <Supercheese> I haven't researched that, but I would fully expect the answer to be "Yes, there are many options for that"
02:16:36 <Supercheese> There should be ways to hook up wireless mice to Android devices, as well as specialized devices for them
02:16:43 <questions> ok
02:16:54 <questions> have a good night
02:17:01 <Supercheese> You too, cheers
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02:21:52 * Supercheese has never actually tried the tutorial
02:23:26 <Supercheese> Wooow, gamescripts can do awesome stuff
02:24:33 <Supercheese> Very impressive
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03:14:58 <xQR> the day they can do this they will be truly impressive:
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05:11:35 <Flygon> xQR: Agreed
05:46:09 <Flygon> Hmm
05:46:17 <Flygon> MU trains that can split at certain stations?
05:46:28 <Flygon> eg. have a mainline, then split it into two lines?
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06:00:27 <Supercheese> Flygon: There's a Patch for That™
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06:07:32 <Flygon> There is?
06:07:35 <Flygon> Mind = Blown
06:13:45 <Supercheese> Lemme see if I can dig up the link
06:14:46 <Supercheese>
06:15:24 <Supercheese>
06:16:02 <Flygon> Scuse the delays
06:16:04 <Flygon> Been busy
06:17:33 <Flygon> Supercheese: Issue is... that doesn't entirely work when you consider E/DMU trains that require two seperate routes
06:17:48 <Supercheese> I'd wager it doesn't work in a few other cases too
06:17:57 <Flygon> True
06:18:34 <Supercheese> Still, there is a patch/grf for most things, however hacky :P
06:19:12 <Flygon> Everything except multiple things in one tile at once :P
06:19:41 <Flygon> I will become a millionaire, dangit
06:19:47 <Flygon> And I will pay peeps for features @_@
06:20:15 <Supercheese> Spoilers: that still might not work :P
06:21:46 <Flygon> Two million
06:22:28 <Supercheese> You'd be better off making an entirely new game with that kind of money
06:25:35 <Flygon> I'll fund OpenTTD2+ :P
06:26:01 <Supercheese> I'd take your money :P
06:27:04 <Supercheese> So anyway, making an Eyecandy Aircraft grf
06:27:14 <Supercheese> gonna take a while, I'm working on too many things at once @_@
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06:29:25 <Supercheese> I've been inspired by this site:
06:29:31 <Supercheese> soo many early aircraft
06:30:54 <Supercheese> They even have stereoscopic pictures of airships in 1904!
06:31:02 <Supercheese> 3D is old
06:32:57 <Flygon> Supercheese: 3D's happened since before 1900
06:33:00 <Flygon> It's so trivial to do
06:33:04 <Supercheese> 2 cameras
06:33:08 <Flygon> There's stereograms from like
06:33:11 <Flygon> 1850
06:33:17 <Supercheese> Spaced eye's width apart, bob's yer uncle 3D pictures
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08:43:48 <Terkhen> good morning
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09:02:55 <peter1138> 3D happened when we got 2 eyes
09:03:18 <peter1138> poor leela
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09:06:25 <andythenorth> I really hate the micro-management in tetris
09:08:17 <andythenorth> it's really limiting that there are different shapes too
09:08:34 <andythenorth> it would flow much more smoothly if there was just one shape
09:08:40 <Flygon> ...
09:08:51 <andythenorth> maybe a single row of blocks, full width
09:11:02 <peter1138> hi
09:11:18 <andythenorth> lo
09:12:42 <andythenorth> the advantage of my idea is that it would be a much more modern play style
09:12:57 <andythenorth> currently I can only play 1 tetris game at once, or maybe 2 sometimes
09:13:07 <andythenorth> but with this patch, I could play literally tens
09:13:18 <Flygon> andy, can't tell if serious
09:13:24 <andythenorth> deadly
09:13:38 <Rubidium> oh darn it...
09:14:06 <Rubidium> ... the undo knob comment in the 2.0 thread also needed a "play for me" knob
09:14:14 <andythenorth> Rubidium: 'win game' button
09:14:15 <Rubidium> totally forgot that important feature
09:15:32 <andythenorth> hmm
09:15:39 <andythenorth> "Win game" produced this lovely image
09:15:54 <andythenorth> every business meeting I go to is *just* like that
09:15:55 <andythenorth> always
09:16:25 <Rubidium> yay computer that is connected to only thin air
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09:18:04 <Alberth> good mornink
09:21:58 <peter1138> Rubidium, like a laptop?
09:23:28 <Rubidium> I don't know any laptop for which you need such an external keyboard, and I doubt there's any tablet that has a connection slot for it
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09:30:45 <peter1138> need, no, can, yes :p
09:35:03 <andythenorth> herp
09:35:12 * andythenorth just solved signals in tunnels, bridges etc
09:35:35 <andythenorth> it's obvious in retrospect
09:35:54 <Terkhen> just terraform instead of building tunnels or bridges? :P
09:36:55 <Alberth> don't use signals at all :)
09:37:08 <andythenorth> remove them
09:37:20 <andythenorth> 1 line per train, like ttd
09:38:48 <Alberth> more trains at a line for more exciting sessions
09:39:12 <andythenorth> hmm
09:39:20 * andythenorth is cleaning out a sink waste pipe
09:39:24 <andythenorth> truly disgusting here
09:39:32 <andythenorth> what is this stuff?
09:40:08 <Alberth> and you're chatting at same time? I hope you covered your keyboard with some plastic beforehand :p
09:41:25 <andythenorth> hmm
09:41:26 <andythenorth> matter
09:41:31 <andythenorth> is the best word for it
09:41:58 <peter1138> hmm, text + opengl
09:42:01 <peter1138> is always a pain
09:46:31 <Alberth> not text + graphics in general?
09:47:37 <Alberth> it always seems to involve messing with text sizes that you cannot nicely express in the graphics
09:55:02 <peter1138> true
09:55:32 <peter1138> maybe i'll just save images with the text i need :p
09:56:00 <peter1138> (that would be a lot of images for all values from 0.0000 to 10.0000)
09:56:26 <peter1138> freetype-gl looked promising but bloated :S
10:03:44 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r24961 trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp (2013-02-03 10:03:38 UTC)
10:03:45 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5362] (r23564): making occupied platforms larger would make train reserve onto the newly unreserved bit and cause crashes. Now if a platform is enlarged and there is a reservation, reserve the whole platform
10:04:16 <V453000> :)
10:06:40 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r24962 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2013-02-03 10:06:34 UTC)
10:06:41 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5438]: Reserve all capacity while unloading to avoid 'stealing' cargo, i.e. loading cargo onto a second vehicle when the first can't be fully filled yet (fonsinchen)
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10:09:23 <peter1138> ah, the station platform fix is basically what i thought about doing
10:09:29 <peter1138> but i was too lazy actually do it
10:09:46 <peter1138> mainly cos i forgot about TileArea
10:10:06 <Rubidium> so fix the servint issue instead ;)
10:10:27 <peter1138> i don't like the last change
10:11:01 <Rubidium> is that last one really needed, or does it work without it as well?
10:11:37 <peter1138> it works fine without but storing the bits in the service interval itself was considered a ttdpatchism
10:12:57 <Rubidium> so what's the other solution? besides stuffing it in a misc flags variable? Adding a new setting for two booleans, which is then just wasting another 6 bits which'll never be used (in contrast to the enlarging of the misc flags bit)
10:15:33 <peter1138> the only two options are stuffing the bits in the service_interval (which has plenty of spare bits), or enlarging vehicle_flags and using 2 bits there
10:16:42 <peter1138> storing in the service_interval means it's simpler to clone & backup
10:16:59 <peter1138> (although backup already copies vehicle_flags so that's not so bad)
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10:22:23 <Rubidium> peter1138: service_interval could even be reduced (back) to 16 bits
10:23:02 <peter1138> yes
10:23:05 <Rubidium> and then still have enough bits for the 2 extra "states"
10:23:23 <peter1138> it seems it was changed to Date mistakenly
10:23:40 <peter1138> we won't mention who :-)
10:27:34 <Rubidium> one of us ;)
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11:05:47 <pauska> Is there anyone here who could explain to me what the gray cross is on certain train models in the UKRS2+ set? What does it indicate?
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11:06:50 <pauska> Is it just a indication that it's a UKRS2+ add-on, and not from the main UKRS2 set?
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11:10:27 <frosch123> that's what i always thought
11:10:34 <frosch123> i think the av8 addon thingie does the same
11:10:43 <frosch123> same author, so quite likely :p
11:14:36 <peter1138> it's not a cross
11:14:39 <peter1138> it's a +
11:14:48 <peter1138> cos it's an add-on
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11:37:02 <peter1138> hmm, been a while since i played with opengl
11:37:10 <peter1138> seems non-power-of-two textures are supported
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11:49:08 <ComLock> Hello
11:49:27 <ComLock> How can I get scrollbar pixel width before drawing it
11:50:03 <peter1138> eh?
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11:58:44 <ComLock> development question...
11:59:49 <peter1138> evidentally
11:59:53 <peter1138> but what are you trying to do?
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12:07:41 <Alberth> if you're trying to automagically hide scrollbars when they are not needed, don't or do it for the other 119 windows too
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12:10:13 <peter1138> oooh, no, bad idea
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12:35:28 <Wolf01> hello
12:36:25 <Alberth> hello
12:36:26 <__ln__> guten giorno
12:50:35 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, glad you answered that list of assorted suggestions
12:50:39 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, cos i can't read it
12:50:42 <peter1138> silly font colours
12:51:40 <Rubidium> peter1138:
12:51:51 <Rubidium> "I agree with everything that I could read"
12:55:23 <Kjetil> colours on fonts ? Why would one do that ?
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12:56:23 <frosch123> because they fail to configure their look and feel
12:56:43 <frosch123> and try to format them in a way which makes them feel it is better readable
12:57:00 <frosch123> neglecting that they screw with the setup of others
12:57:25 <Alberth> well, they are *his* suggestions :p
12:59:04 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r24963 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2013-02-03 12:58:57 UTC)
12:59:05 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5435]: Do not stop loading if there are reservations left (fonsinchen)
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14:16:51 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r24964 trunk/src/pathfinder/yapf/yapf_ship.cpp (2013-02-03 14:16:45 UTC)
14:16:52 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5416]: With YAPF the docking behaviour differed per direction; now favour docking in the direction you approached
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14:43:33 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i tend to mark the sentence i'm reading with the mouse, so weird font colours don't matter much at this point
14:53:08 <NGC3982> Afternoon.
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18:12:05 <LordAro> heyo all
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18:13:05 <Alberth> o/
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18:19:49 <LordAro> ping?
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18:21:29 <Alberth> pong!
18:21:44 <LordAro> indeed
18:21:49 <LordAro> silly internets
18:22:51 <Alberth> internet is overrated anyway :)
18:23:48 <LordAro> maybe :)
18:25:07 <LordAro> who wants to play the 'fix-Lord-Aro's-stupid-coding-mistakes' game?
18:25:10 <LordAro>
18:26:18 <Kjetil> mr. pedantic to the rescue!
18:27:10 <LordAro> any advice will be appreciated, it currently segfaults part-way-through a loop, due to (i suspect) memory read errors
18:27:30 <Kjetil> tried valgrind ?
18:28:24 <LordAro> indeed:
18:28:30 <LordAro> lots and lots of errors :)
18:28:37 <LordAro> none of them i understand the cause of :)
18:31:40 <Kjetil> the valgrind log doesn't appear to match the current svn version
18:31:40 <Rubidium> line 133 tells all... reading from NULL
18:32:33 <LordAro> Kjetil: it won't be very different, it'll be +/-1 line
18:32:46 <LordAro> Rubidium: line 133 of which file?
18:32:52 <Rubidium> the paste
18:33:26 <Kjetil> bmp.cpp isn't checked in
18:33:33 <LordAro> dang, hang on
18:35:13 <LordAro> ok, look again
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18:45:03 <Kjetil> have you checked if slpfile.header.num_shapes is more than 0 ?
18:45:33 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24965 /trunk/src/lang (4 files in 2 dirs) (2013-02-03 18:45:24 UTC)
18:45:34 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:35 <DorpsGek> catalan - 3 changes by arnau
18:45:36 <DorpsGek> luxembourgish - 2 changes by Phreeze
18:45:37 <DorpsGek> serbian - 44 changes by ivan_mile
18:45:38 <DorpsGek> tamil - 1 changes by aswn
18:46:11 <NGC3982> Evening.
18:47:41 <LordAro> Kjetil: i have not checked, but it certainly shouldn't be (it won't be that way in the binary file)
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18:51:14 <Alberth> LordAro: rule 1 of reading data from external sources: check everything, in particular the 'impossible' things
18:51:57 <Alberth> even if just by assert() so it dies in a debug build
18:52:43 <peter1138> rule 2: don't assert on user supplied data
18:52:56 <peter1138> especially over the network
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18:55:09 <Alberth> :)
18:55:55 <Alberth> but true, using assert that way is only useful for personal projects
18:56:19 <Alberth> for all other cases, report a nice error
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19:25:47 * LordAro back
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19:27:13 <LordAro> Alberth: true, but i don't think that's the issue here...
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19:43:47 <peter1138> hm
19:43:55 <peter1138> yeah, freetype & opengl...
19:44:03 <peter1138> or should i use that hacky ugly vector font...
19:44:17 <Supercheese> write your own font
19:44:26 <peter1138> i could but...
19:46:17 <peter1138> hmm, what did i do last time...
19:46:49 <peter1138> ah, i used ftgl
19:46:54 <peter1138> well that shold be good enough
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19:56:20 <LordAro> "malloc.c:4471: _int_malloc: Assertion `(bck->bk->size & 0x4) == 0' failed." any ideas?
19:57:31 <Kjetil> probably tries to allocate zero bytes of memory
19:57:56 <Kjetil> or something
19:58:40 <frosch123> more likely you freed stuff twice
19:58:49 <Rubidium> of writing beyond a buffer
19:59:01 <LordAro> line = "slpfile.shape[i].row[j].pixel = new byte[slpfile.shape[i].info.width]();"
19:59:10 <LordAro> width == 440 (according to gdb)
19:59:22 <frosch123> malloc of 0 is no issue
19:59:27 <frosch123> it results in NULL
19:59:33 <Kjetil> frosch123: might result in NULL :P
19:59:39 <frosch123> it does
19:59:55 <Kjetil> some guy claimed it didn't on windows
20:00:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i think we had that discussion a dozen times
20:00:55 <frosch123> "If size is 0, then malloc() returns either NULL, or a unique pointer value that can later be successfully passed to free()." <- ok
20:02:46 <peter1138> ugh, writing code without any static is nasty
20:04:30 <Supercheese> you need some van de Graaf code, eh? ;)
20:04:31 <Rubidium> just pass a "Global *yuck" to all functions ;)
20:04:43 <peter1138> Rubidium, i might
20:05:02 <peter1138> i think there's only 1 case where i need the info
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20:06:31 <peter1138> incidentally my Paint() is const
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20:11:55 <Snail> hey guys
20:12:40 <Snail> would it be possible to have var61 to work with the callback that assigns the visual effects (steam, diesel, electric sparks) of a vehicle?
20:13:38 <Rubidium> no
20:13:50 <Snail> why?
20:13:55 <Rubidium> desyncs
20:14:17 <Supercheese> what is var 61?
20:15:34 <George> Is it possible to get start year and inflation from GRF&
20:15:38 <George> ?
20:16:13 <Rubidium> start year is tricky, since it might be later than the current date
20:16:15 <Supercheese> starting_year is available
20:16:35 <frosch123> are you sure?
20:16:37 <frosch123> i doubt that
20:16:38 <Supercheese> " Years before 1920 are clamped to 1920 "
20:16:41 <Snail> perhaps it would desync if we linked it to the info whether the wagon is powered or not (that could create circular references), but how about the mere visual effects?
20:17:19 <frosch123> oh, via action d
20:17:41 <Rubidium> visual effects are created randomly, so if the visual effects differ (i.e. depend on eachother) then different runs could give different results
20:18:47 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r24966 trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp (2013-02-03 20:18:41 UTC)
20:18:48 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5228]: trams would get stuck on water
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20:20:06 <George> frosch123: Where?
20:20:43 <frosch123> the patchvars
20:21:31 <Snail> rubidium: but couldn't I just disable the visual effects (set them to "none") of a wagon depending on the type of another wagon in the train?
20:22:01 <Snail> so far I'm doing this through a userbit, bit it's not very practical... var61 would be better suited for this
20:22:02 <Rubidium> Snail: you could, but the next one doesn't and we have to chase desyncs
20:23:10 <Snail> the next one would keep its effects untouched
20:25:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: var61 disabling was never about desyncs, but about "feedback loops"
20:26:35 <Snail> I thought so too, it was about avoiding circular references
20:26:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. "a decides value based on b", "b decides value based on a"... final result depends on order of execution => you get a "stateful" machine
20:27:48 <Snail> yes, this is why I think that visual effects should be enabled in var61. They're just an "output" thing, such as graphics or recoloring... we have the latter two, so why not visual effects as well
20:28:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't really judge that
20:29:26 <Eddi|zuHause> is visual effect readable by an 80+ var?
20:35:06 <peter1138> some things should be zeroed when in a callback, i guess
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20:35:28 <peter1138> depending on the cb though
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20:37:42 <Snail> what do you mean by zeroed?
20:38:48 <peter1138> unavailable
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20:39:00 <peter1138> due to dependencies
20:39:02 <peter1138> and stuff
20:39:38 <peter1138> alternatively we stop caching anything and your game grinds to a halt :D
20:40:33 <Snail> well, it depends on how the newGRF is programmed :p
20:41:01 <Snail> it should be up to the programmer to avoid circular references, not up to OTTD to prevent all the cases in which they "might" occur :D
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20:42:19 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: and because of that loop, the first loop "a" becomes 1 and the later loops "a" becomes 2. Thus someone joining later has 1 in the first loop which isn't the 2 the others have. Ergo... desync
20:44:37 <Eddi|zuHause2> Rubidium: maybe, but the problem is bigger than that
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20:47:41 <frosch123> Snail: cool, so you know the order in which callback 36 resolves 13 different properites?
20:47:56 <frosch123> in all cases, like loading, unloading and rearranging it in depot?
20:48:02 <frosch123> pretty impressive i have to say
20:48:33 <peter1138> i know i don't
20:48:41 <frosch123> i don't know either :)
20:49:23 <Snail> I don't know that either of course :)
20:49:34 <Snail> but how would this affect my programming?
20:49:52 <frosch123> you have to know that to decide what may depend on what
20:50:15 <frosch123> properties are updated at different times
20:50:31 <frosch123> some at loading, some when entering a different tile with different track type
20:50:43 <Snail> hmm, I see
20:50:53 <Snail> yeah I see your point
20:50:55 <frosch123> you can only make them depend on stuff which is evaluated earlier
20:50:57 <frosch123> in all cases
20:51:19 <Snail> but I wouldn't propose for callback 36 being activated in var61, I'd just propose the visual effects
20:51:33 <peter1138> that's not how it works
20:51:44 <frosch123> visual effect is just the same as cb 36
20:51:55 <frosch123> it's even listed in cb36
20:53:07 <Snail> property 22?
20:53:34 <Snail> I can also see it in callback 10 though
20:53:47 <frosch123> the cb number makes no difference
20:54:04 <frosch123> just making it callback 123 does not change anything
20:54:58 <frosch123> it's a property which affects how the vehicle behaves over a longer amount of time
20:55:43 <Snail> so I was wondering if we could have cb10 enabled in a var61 chain
20:55:58 <frosch123> no
20:56:02 <frosch123> just like any cb36
20:56:21 <andythenorth> Snail: what are you trying to do? Needing too much complexity is sometimes a bad sign :)
20:56:32 <Snail> :D
20:56:55 <Supercheese> crap crap crap, my Iron ore mine here hit quadruple production, I'm never going to be able to move all this ore
20:56:56 <Snail> I'm trying to arrange the power effects when a push-pull compliant train reverses
20:57:02 <andythenorth> it can be a sign of implementing features with marginal value, because you've thought of them ;)
20:57:08 <andythenorth> pikka and I have found this :P
20:57:22 <Snail> say I have a DMU made of engines and trailers, some will have diesel smoke, some won't
20:57:43 <Snail> when it reverses and I swap the graphics to create the push-pull effect, I need to swap the power effects too
20:58:02 <Snail> so far I do it with a userbit, but it only works in a limited number of cases
20:58:07 <frosch123> maybe we should just remove the 'reverse' flag to make newgrf life easier :)
20:58:23 <Snail> I use var61 to check for the graphics and the recoloring, but I can't do it with power effects
20:59:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> maybe we should really implement push-pull in the game, so newgrf can save all this crap
20:59:11 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
20:59:20 <andythenorth> maybe we should implement NewGRFEffects
20:59:24 <Snail> :D
20:59:34 <Supercheese> Multiple smokes per vehicle etc.
20:59:37 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what, just flip the consist?
21:00:07 <Snail> implementing push-pull takes a large, large amount of code in my set :p
21:00:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "NewGRF effects" doesn't change anything, because they still couldn't evaluate var61 (data of other vehicles in the chain)
21:00:52 <andythenorth> herp, I only code ships this days, I am no longer familiar with vars
21:00:55 * andythenorth spec
21:01:13 <peter1138> frosch123, they'd go mental
21:01:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, options: just reverse the consist (like currently), just drive backwards (push-pull) or move the engine to the other end (with/without flipping) and drive the wagon chain backwards
21:02:04 <andythenorth> isn't there loads of stuff requiring first vehicle to be powered?
21:02:07 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: remember when we disabled turning around of engines? :p
21:02:09 <andythenorth> or is that just FUD I've heard?
21:02:31 <Snail> Eddi|zuHause: that'd be my dream :p
21:02:41 <peter1138> hmm, tooltips
21:02:42 <andythenorth> Snail: is there nothing you can just check on the consist head?
21:02:47 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, it's just the first vehicle stores all the cached data (power, max speed, etc.)
21:02:48 <andythenorth> with related
21:03:04 <peter1138> articulated becomes fun
21:03:11 <peter1138> var 0x4x become fun too
21:03:17 <Snail> andy: it's not just the consist head
21:03:29 <Snail> say I have a consist made of ETET (engine - trailer - engine - trailer)
21:03:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what's problematic with backwards-driving is that the whole movement process loops through the vehicles, which must reverse the loop direction (or reorder the consist, making things more difficult than they need to)
21:03:47 <Snail> 1st and 3rd vehicles have power effects, 2nd and 4th don't
21:03:51 <andythenorth> all this train crap, but still ships with only one hold :)
21:04:03 <andythenorth> all this train crap, but still I have to fake the weight for articulated RVs
21:04:05 <andythenorth> :)
21:04:05 <peter1138> monolithic ships
21:04:11 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yup, all you have to do is go to the movement code, and replace the Front and Next calls with Back and PRev
21:04:19 <peter1138> articulated rvs still don't have weight?
21:04:20 <peter1138> hmm
21:04:30 <frosch123> you do not need to move caches to other vehicles or something silly
21:04:35 <Snail> when it reverses, this should flip, and so I should check each corresponding vehicle with var61 and enable/disable the smoke accordigly
21:04:41 <Snail> accordingly
21:05:16 <peter1138> overly complicated crap
21:05:17 <peter1138> sorry
21:05:28 <peter1138> i'm sure it's lovely but is it really worth it?
21:06:11 <peter1138> this stuff is checked every tick whenever a vehicle moves
21:06:23 <Snail> I think it would help lots of sets to achieve better results in terms of looks, and functionality too
21:06:36 * andythenorth examines the list of "ideas andythenorth had, but abandoned"
21:06:42 <andythenorth> for reasons of gameplay, or meh
21:06:48 <andythenorth> long list
21:06:56 <Snail> we could allow push-pull trains to leave a dead-end station more quickly, so giving them an advantage
21:07:12 <Pinkbeast> andy: "Go to basement, examine cask of Amontillado"
21:07:15 <peter1138> but push-pull shouldn't be handled by newgrfs fudging their graphics
21:07:17 <Eddi|zuHause> turn around time! :)
21:07:22 <peter1138> just a flag
21:07:34 <peter1138> or i suppose a callback
21:07:37 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i've been saying that for years
21:07:38 <peter1138> as consists are dynamic
21:07:42 * Pinkbeast would like an autotrain implementation indeed
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21:07:56 <Snail> of course, if OTTD handled push-pull itself I'd remove all of my hackish graphics swapping :p
21:08:07 <Eddi|zuHause> only Snail is insane enough to actually try this :p
21:08:15 <Snail> haha :D
21:08:15 <andythenorth> pikka does it
21:08:32 <peter1138> pikka did it
21:08:38 <peter1138> not sure he still does
21:08:51 <andythenorth> push-pull?
21:08:53 <andythenorth> yeah
21:08:54 <Snail> Eddi: the big problem we have now is about vehicle lenghts which can only change in a depot
21:08:56 <peter1138> just individual vehicles flip
21:09:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but only swapping front and back in special circumstances, not touching anything inbetween
21:09:08 <andythenorth> yeah that
21:09:11 <Pinkbeast> UKRS2 doesn't now eg change the appearance of a mail car on the back of a class 91, but still does something oddball
21:09:26 <andythenorth> not calling .reverse() on the whole consist :P
21:09:30 <peter1138> Snail, the big problem is you're trying to implement push-pull in the wrong place
21:09:51 <andythenorth> Snail: so now *all* you have to do is patch ottd and have it accepted to trunk :)
21:10:06 <andythenorth> I don't know the emoticon for 'roll eyes' :)
21:10:06 <Snail> peter1138: I know, but I'm not an OTTD developer, and since OTTD doesn't implement it, I think doing it in a newGRF is better than nothing :p
21:10:22 <Snail> andy: yes, well learn C++ first :D
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21:10:32 <Snail> (I mean I'd have to learn C++ first)
21:10:43 <LordAro> gah, my code is still breaking with strange errors... :(
21:10:51 <peter1138> i had to learn c++ first!
21:11:12 <Snail> I thought ottd was written in C++?
21:11:20 <peter1138> yes and?
21:11:32 <Snail> so, if I wanted to patch it, I'd need to learn the language first
21:11:41 <peter1138> yup
21:11:46 <peter1138> so did i
21:11:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i had only very poor C/C++ knowledge when i entered this channel
21:12:05 <DDR> Yes, though depending on how much you already know and how braindead the error is, you might be able to get away with partial knowledge.
21:12:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i still have, but i managed to get some more or less elaborate patches out there ;)
21:12:26 <DDR> c/c++ is worryingly easy to subtly eff up, though. :/
21:12:58 <Eddi|zuHause> that is true, there are some evil newbie pitfalls :p
21:13:00 <Pinkbeast> Well, OTTD's bondage-and-discipline OO style does tend to eliminate much of the potential for comedy there.
21:13:01 <__ln__> Snail: OTTD is written in something that resembles C++.
21:13:34 <glx> C++-ified C :)
21:14:44 <Supercheese> Heh, autorefit made my engine change paint schemes :D
21:14:44 <peter1138> __ln__, it's c++, definitely
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21:15:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: it should try to preserve that
21:15:40 <__ln__> peter1138: but constructors are really used for constructing?
21:15:45 <Supercheese> I think in UKRS the front engine can change paint schemes based on what kind of cargoes the train it pulls caries
21:16:00 <Supercheese> so when autorefit changes those cargoes, the engine paint changes
21:16:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: how silly
21:16:15 <Supercheese> carries*
21:16:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: blame the author
21:16:23 <Supercheese> :P
21:16:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: he should prevent the refit by callback, in those cases
21:16:46 <peter1138> Supercheese, liveries can do that anyway
21:17:01 <peter1138> Supercheese, although auto-refit between passengers and cargo is less likely
21:17:02 <Pinkbeast> Isn't that mostly pax v. not-pax and there aren't many autorefit cases there?
21:17:09 <Supercheese> Argh, stop beeping
21:17:18 <Pinkbeast> I definitely appreciate the way eg the 2-6-4T looks right based on cargo
21:17:30 <peter1138> __ln__,
21:17:32 <Supercheese> or whatever the special IRC term is for when someone says your name
21:17:43 <andythenorth> autorefit smells of wee
21:17:49 <andythenorth> unfortunately
21:17:49 <Supercheese> You've mentioned, andy :)
21:18:06 <andythenorth> it's a nice feature, I requested something like it a few times
21:18:12 <andythenorth> but...newgrf is explodey
21:18:18 <andythenorth> I should rephrase
21:18:21 <andythenorth> newgrf smells of wee
21:18:24 <glx> Supercheese: the word is highlight
21:18:27 <Supercheese> That
21:18:49 <Supercheese> I have a separate alter-tone for it, and it was going off like mad :P
21:18:52 <Supercheese> alert*
21:19:08 <Pinkbeast> I blame your IRC client; computers should be seen but not heard. :-/
21:19:19 <Supercheese> I've implemented it on purpose
21:19:39 <Supercheese> It's not often people highlight me 5 times in 60 seconds :P
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21:20:12 <__ln__> peter1138: so that proves my point
21:20:33 <peter1138> __ln__, yes, because it's written in C++ but doesn't necessarily use C++ "features" list std:: ...
21:20:38 <peter1138> therefore it's not C++?
21:20:39 <peter1138> ok
21:20:46 <peter1138> -list+like
21:21:19 <peter1138> never mind inheritance and polymorphism
21:22:14 <Rubidium> so... it's definitely not C and not C++... so what is it?
21:22:26 <peter1138> besides, we use constructors
21:22:30 <peter1138> Train *v = new Train();...
21:23:16 <peter1138> is it not true C++ because set variable members outside of the constructor?
21:23:30 <Pinkbeast> I think the way you're never allowed to just ask what a variable is but have to always go thingy->how_old_are_you() makes it very C++ :-P
21:23:51 <peter1138> Pinkbeast, that doesn't make any sense
21:24:00 <andythenorth> Supercheese: was it you who mentioned broken steel chain in FIRS Temperate Basic (before 1873)?
21:24:06 <Supercheese> yes
21:24:15 <Supercheese> issues?
21:24:17 <andythenorth> I'm thinking don't use that chain before 1873 in that case :)
21:24:26 <andythenorth> I think special-casing dates is going to be a headache
21:24:34 <andythenorth> I'm not going to bother
21:24:58 <Supercheese> So iron ore and coal are not usable before 1873 in temperate basic?
21:25:08 <Flygon> Supercheese: 5 in 60 is low :P
21:25:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: an abomination!!
21:26:05 <Rubidium> even though... OpenTTD wasn't pure C before either
21:26:07 <andythenorth> Supercheese: that's about right yes
21:26:15 <andythenorth> don't play before 1873 if it bothers you?
21:26:19 <Supercheese> Ok :)
21:26:33 <andythenorth> dunno where metal comes from
21:26:35 <Supercheese> Well, or use FIRS full :P
21:26:40 <andythenorth> the iron works is a bad industry
21:26:44 <andythenorth> it makes no sense
21:26:45 <Supercheese> :O
21:27:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: yes, with manually reimplemented virtual function tables and stuff :p
21:27:16 <andythenorth> I had to push the steel mill intro dates back to give the iron works some purpose
21:27:21 <andythenorth> bad smell
21:27:22 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone remember the WP macro? :p
21:27:47 <Flygon> It makes even less sense if you're shipping to Australia, andythenorth... you ship it to China from Australia as Ore, and it returns as Steel from China. And not very good steel. :P
21:27:54 <Flygon> And away I go, because I'm sleep deprived
21:27:59 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, :-(
21:28:04 <andythenorth> Flygon: that's a port
21:28:06 <Flygon> To a car
21:28:07 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, i'd actually forgotten
21:28:10 <andythenorth> maybe I do that in Tropic :P
21:28:43 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: well os_timer.cpp is definitely not pure C
21:28:46 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: and you thought the current gui/widget code was evil :p
21:28:51 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, nope
21:29:05 <peter1138> byte custom[16];
21:29:09 <peter1138> yeah boi
21:29:13 <peter1138> all custom window data
21:29:14 <peter1138> in 16 bytes
21:29:25 <peter1138> byte byte_1
21:30:25 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, and VARDEF!
21:30:35 <peter1138> althoug that was removed more recently
21:37:21 <Kjetil> what is this "byte" ?
21:37:24 <andythenorth> I should just can the iron works in FIRS
21:37:33 <andythenorth> and make it a graphical variation of steel mill
21:37:35 <Kjetil> what's wrong with uint8_t ?
21:42:18 <Snail> ok, another idea now :D
21:42:57 <Snail> so far we have a function that allows us to "OR" through the userbits of a certain vehicle + all the vehicles in the consist after that oe
21:43:00 <Snail> *one
21:43:29 <Snail> how about a function that only allows us to check a certain vehicle's userbits, without taking those of the following vehicles?
21:43:30 <Supercheese> bwahahaha, this guy accidentally said his hand-held green laser was 50 MW, rather than 50 mW
21:43:47 <Supercheese> that's one heck of a laser
21:43:56 <Supercheese> :P
21:44:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Snail: isn't that accessible through some 80+ var?
21:45:19 <Snail> hmm. The way I access it now, "ORs" through all the following vehicles' userbits. What is the var you're referring to?
21:46:38 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i guess it's not then
21:46:57 <Eddi|zuHause> but should be a one-line patch :)
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21:48:44 <Supercheese> Oh blah, do new wagons still not trigger a news message?
21:48:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: nope
21:49:02 <Supercheese> Phoo.
21:49:25 <Supercheese> Where is that controlled...
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21:49:56 <Snail> Eddi: yes... and quite useful. but I wonder if someone could do it
21:50:32 <Supercheese> engine.cpp
21:50:35 <Supercheese> if (IsWagon(index)) return;
21:50:41 <Supercheese> Why is that so?
21:50:53 <Supercheese> Why not provide news messages for wagons?
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21:52:22 <Alberth> nobody ever programmed it
21:52:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Snail: in src/newgrf_engine.cpp:VehicleGetVariable, add "case 0x4D: return if (u->type == VEH_TRAIN) user_def_data |= Train::From(u)->tcache.user_def_data;" or something like that
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21:52:50 <Eddi|zuHause> err... s/u/v/
21:52:53 <Supercheese> So, hmm, what would be needed, some new strings? Some other code elsewhere?
21:52:55 <Alberth> and tbh, I don't find wagons that interesting; I usually also ignore the engine announcements
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21:53:12 <Supercheese> perhaps an option to disable, as well
21:53:36 <Snail> Eddi: I'm afraid I could break something if I put my hands in there... :p
21:54:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: just comment out the code that ignores wagons :)
21:55:16 <Supercheese> Eddi|zuHause: Yeah, that will definitely be bug-free... :P
21:55:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: it would be a line like "if (power == 0) return;"
21:55:50 <Eddi|zuHause> just remove that :p
21:55:55 <Supercheese> I already found the line
21:56:04 <Supercheese> if (IsWagon(index)) return;
21:56:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i think frosch123 actually coded that once
21:56:28 <Supercheese> I'd like to research more before I just comment it out
21:56:34 <Eddi|zuHause> "coded"
21:57:39 <andythenorth> today
21:57:51 <andythenorth> I have mostly done useful chores and played with my kids
21:58:00 <andythenorth> and have not been trolling losers on the internet
21:58:04 <andythenorth> how odd
21:58:18 <andythenorth> trolling losers makes me a loser too I think
21:58:34 <andythenorth> although this whole winner / loser concept might smell bad?
21:58:49 <andythenorth> hrm
21:58:57 <andythenorth> I wish FIRS translators would hurry up :P
21:59:10 <andythenorth> all this error crap in stdout makes real errors hard to see
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22:05:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese:
22:06:38 <Eddi|zuHause> (around 2 years ago)
22:06:40 <Supercheese> Yeah, more places than just in engine.cpp, that makes sense
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22:08:53 * peter1138 mehs at dependencies
22:10:14 * LordAro wonders if people are fed up with him asking for help with his code...
22:10:23 <LordAro> still can't get the f-ing thing to work
22:10:36 <LordAro>
22:10:55 <frosch123> LordAro: learn to use a debugger :)
22:11:12 <LordAro> i am, it's giving me strange malloc errors
22:11:30 <frosch123> you are not supposed to run the program until it crashes
22:11:57 <frosch123> you set breakpoints at functions, and check whether the arguments are valid
22:12:12 <LordAro> again, i have, everything i can think of is fine
22:12:19 <frosch123> when you reach the final point where it is still correct
22:12:22 <frosch123> you continue singlestepping
22:12:27 <frosch123> validating every single variable
22:13:10 <LordAro> as far as i can tell, i have
22:13:44 <LordAro> it's just failing half way through a loop, with the equivalent of: "unsigned char *array = new unsigned char[440];"
22:14:14 <peter1138> 22:11 < frosch123> you are not supposed to run the program until it crashes
22:14:16 <peter1138> oh shit
22:14:20 <peter1138> i'm doing it wrong :D
22:18:13 <LordAro> valgrind is giving me loads (actually millions) of errors too, which makes me suspect there's a problem somewhere else in the program
22:19:51 <andythenorth> bye
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22:26:14 <Eddi|zuHause> "apps using OSX's TextEdit crash on inputting 'File:///'"
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22:27:28 <Eddi|zuHause> "I attempt to file a crash report: typing the description into the Crash Reporter UI caused Crash Reporter to crash and vanish."
22:27:39 <Eddi|zuHause> lmao :p
22:28:42 <__ln__> now somebody could try if OTTD crashes like that, and if it doesn't, think about measures on how to make it behave more like a native application.
22:30:55 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: can't, we lack an OSX maintainer
22:31:17 <Kjetil> Eddi|zuHause: haha
22:34:17 <Eddi|zuHause> "Alitalia-plane crash-lands in Rome. First step? remove the company's logo from it!"
22:34:40 <Eddi|zuHause>
22:35:40 <Wolf01> 'night
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22:35:56 <Snail> :D
22:36:24 <Snail> that flight was actually sublet to Carpatair, a Rumanian company
22:36:33 <Snail> it only had alitalia's logos
22:36:35 <__ln__> and it wasn't even operated by Alitalia according to some news articles
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23:00:46 <frosch123> night
23:00:48 *** frosch123 has quit IRC
23:05:44 <Terkhen> good night
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