IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-01-29
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05:08:56 <Supercheese> FIRS Steel Mills appear to produce Livestock and Grain
05:09:05 <Supercheese> that's soooome alchemy
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06:36:27 <Flygon> Mazda is advertising that, in a world first, they invented brakes that use the energy generated, stored in a capacitor, to help accelerate the car again
06:36:33 <Flygon> Must be one hell of a car from 1930
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06:46:07 <Kjetil> Flygon: now. If only they could create a car with an electric starter
06:46:41 <Flygon> Kjetil: Electric starters are worthless. All cars should be steam powered.
06:46:51 <Flygon> No need to even light he boiler, just use the compressed air tank!
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06:48:19 <Pikka> your mother could be heroes, peter1138
07:01:05 <Supercheese> Friggin vehicle introduction date randomization
07:01:10 <Supercheese> that needs to be disableable
07:01:13 <peter1138> FRIGGIN IN THE RIGGIN
07:01:22 <peter1138> COS THERE FECK ALL ELSE TO DO
07:04:55 <Supercheese> Hmm, where is that controlled
07:07:04 <Pikka> add it to the newgrf specs as a vehicle flag
07:07:18 <Pikka> then put a bug report on flyspray that it doesn't work :D
07:07:31 <Supercheese> engine.cpp it looks like
07:13:20 <peter1138> what's more useful, fixed intro date or engine dependencies?
07:13:56 <peter1138> fixed intro date is rather simpler to do
07:14:09 <peter1138> but we like randomised dates :D
07:16:38 <Supercheese> Well, a disable_randomization flag and/or engine dependencies should happen sometime
07:16:53 <Supercheese> I guess I should look at other parts of the code to see how newgrf flags interact
07:17:21 <Supercheese> Hmm, other flags...
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07:17:45 <Supercheese> breakdown smoke, that one looks relevant
07:20:21 <Supercheese> augh, ternary operator
07:21:05 <Supercheese> If (true) then stuff_before_colon, else stuff_after_colon?
07:26:05 <Supercheese> Huh, defining a new flag only involves 2 files?
07:28:23 <Supercheese> engine_type.h and engine.cpp it seems
07:29:02 <Supercheese> Hmm, now to figure out how to set it in a GRF
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07:30:22 <peter1138> you're lucky, there's only a single bit free
07:34:47 <Supercheese> Ironically, I seem to be having an easier time modifying OTTD to accept the flag than modifying a grf to set the flag
07:35:04 <Supercheese> likely because I don't understand NFO
07:35:41 <peter1138> the property differs depending on vehicle type, unfortunately
07:36:04 <Supercheese> Yeah, bit 0 means different things it seems
07:36:20 <Supercheese> tilting trains or RV_is_tram
07:36:31 <planetmaker> every bit is different usually
07:36:35 <planetmaker> good morning also
07:36:38 <Supercheese> Breakdown smoke is common
07:36:50 <planetmaker> yes. it's the newest ;-)
07:38:25 <Supercheese> Pffff, grfcodec won't decode my grf
07:38:43 <peter1138> let me guess, you've got a sound effect in there?
07:39:02 <Supercheese> I think all my grfs have custom sounds...
07:39:13 <Supercheese> except those separators, those aren't even real grfs though :P
07:39:32 <peter1138> i couldn't unpack one
07:39:38 <peter1138> but i can't remember what
07:42:36 <Supercheese> Hmm, most recent NML nightly hasn't built
07:43:47 <planetmaker> nightly, you know. 17:17 CET
07:43:55 <planetmaker> nightly != head :-)
07:44:52 <planetmaker> I'd say: in 9 hours it should be there
07:45:05 <planetmaker> do you need it like now?
07:45:29 <Supercheese> Nah, just noticed
07:45:40 <Supercheese> I'm slogging through the NFO
07:45:54 <Supercheese> It's not *completely* gibberish :P
07:46:39 <Supercheese> This grf spec page makes no sense
07:46:55 <Supercheese> That's supposed to be a bitmask, values go 1,2,4,8,16,32...
07:47:05 <Supercheese> but they go 1,2,4,8,10,20,40...?
07:47:34 <Supercheese> am I misunderstanding something?
07:51:18 <peter1138> i suppose i should either report that bug
07:51:41 <Supercheese> Eh, all the cool kids use NML anyway
07:51:52 <Supercheese> so what if it doesn't support bridges or stations :P
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07:54:06 <Flygon> Speaking of Bridges and Stations
07:54:23 <Flygon> One of the worst things I've done in OpenTTD is add more platforms to a station in the middle of a city
07:54:36 <Flygon> That also has a crapload of Trams and Buses
07:54:50 <Flygon> And Trams and Buses going across those bridges
07:59:43 <Flygon> And yet I've managed to get room for another platform...
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08:11:00 <Flygon> Urg... run out of room to expand
08:11:13 <Flygon> Can't wait for OpenTTD to have multilayer support
08:12:00 <Dr_Tan> they say that won't ever happen
08:12:02 <peter1138> i think you're going to have to
08:12:04 <Supercheese> not gonna happen soon, probably
08:13:19 <Flygon> I'll need to wait til 2038 then
08:14:31 <Flygon> It's a shame, it's a very needed feature
08:14:56 *** Dr_Tan is now known as Nat_aS
08:15:08 <Supercheese> No feature is needed, OTTD is luxury, everything is wanted
08:15:20 <peter1138> it's always amazing how so few people are born with the ability to code
08:15:39 <Flygon> And then lots of times
08:15:45 <Supercheese> well to be fair, adding a NO_RANDOM_INTRO_DATE flag is nothing compared to multilayer map array
08:15:48 <Pikka> Supercheese, I agree, bitmasks are so much easier in decimal than in hex D;
08:16:29 <Supercheese> Hmm, the NML code and the actual game years seem to be off by 1
08:17:52 <Flygon> (ironically, I did great at a Java course at Uni. Only problem is, it's Java)
08:20:08 <Supercheese> Waaait, is NFO big or little-endian
08:20:16 <Pikka> peter1138, it's only relatively recently that computers have become small enough to fit in the womb
08:20:52 <peter1138> Supercheese, little
08:21:27 <Supercheese> Sooo, I have to read Wides backwards
08:22:04 <Flygon> Pikka: Are you suggesting Borg babies?
08:23:28 <Pikka> you can use the wx escape to write words forwards, supercheese
08:23:47 <Pikka> likewise dx for dubbleverdz
08:24:08 <Supercheese> I'll stick to NML, I'm just trying to add a new misc_flag and being forced to muck around with NFO :P
08:24:12 <peter1138> hmm, so mb cites programmable signals and through-pbs signals
08:24:47 <peter1138> as far as i can tell, both those features are pointless with ottd-style path signals
08:25:46 <Nat_aS> i'm not sure, if I'd rather have layered maps or better cargodistribution
08:26:15 <Supercheese> which first, which second probably
08:26:44 <Nat_aS> and wondering what everyone else's most wanted pipedream feature is
08:27:02 <Nat_aS> what would you guys like to have somebody else do all the work implementing
08:27:03 <NGC3982> Is there a web entry on what mathematics are used to calculate the number of breakdowns due to reliability?
08:30:24 <Supercheese> Seems the flag I added works
08:31:14 <peter1138> NGC3982, not really, it's a counter than increases, but can jump, and a lookup table
08:31:43 <Supercheese> Hmm, it seems like the GRF says "introduce in year 2000" but in-game it's really 2001
08:31:52 <Supercheese> I wonder where that year is coming from...
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08:32:33 <andythenorth> planetmaker: +1 to locking that thread thanks
08:32:55 <Supercheese> also, I don't really know when parenthesis are needed and when they aren't
08:33:02 <Supercheese> I just placed lots :P
08:33:08 <planetmaker> moin :-) rarities :D
08:33:22 <andythenorth> pikka...got an idea for UKRS2....
08:33:30 <Pikka> I must hie me anon to dinner at parentals
08:33:43 <andythenorth> pikka's have parents?
08:33:52 <andythenorth> bit weird when you make that switch
08:34:04 <Pikka> it's not a switch, is it
08:34:10 <Pikka> even if you are parents you have parents
08:34:22 <andythenorth> but it's a bit mental
08:34:27 <andythenorth> before you wasn't parents
08:34:30 <andythenorth> then you is parents
08:34:56 <V453000> andythenorth: I wants steel sheepies, cowies and piggies back!
08:35:02 <Pikka> no trollish ideas, then?
08:35:08 <V453000> I can supply sprites? :D
08:35:40 * Pikka steals sheppies, coobeasties and piglets back
08:35:58 <andythenorth> should just make up some things for UKRS2
08:36:11 <andythenorth> instead of looking for obscure prototpaypals
08:36:22 <Pikka> I look forward to seeing them when I return of the king
08:36:59 <andythenorth> except when the sata cable broke
08:37:08 <andythenorth> like a mack truck
08:38:39 <andythenorth> oh won't you come back?
08:39:08 <andythenorth> why can't simuscape things be discussed on simuscape?
08:39:14 <andythenorth> it's just a fricking forum
08:39:18 <andythenorth> register, go discuss there
08:39:24 <Supercheese> they're too busy freaking out
08:39:31 <andythenorth> it's like tt-forums is some kind of meta-discussion site about the other site
08:39:34 <Supercheese> over non-issues :S
08:39:50 <peter1138> mark morrison paid a look-alike to perform his community service
08:40:02 <peter1138> (mark morrison == return of the mack)
08:40:05 <andythenorth> I'd suggest a ban on discussing simuscape meta-issues, but then someone will turn that into a drama
08:40:35 <andythenorth> it was quite funny trolling
08:40:44 <peter1138> obviously some regular deciding to stir up shit
08:40:50 <Supercheese> Simuscape ≡ drama
08:41:02 <andythenorth> Supercheese: not really, not inside simuscape anyway
08:41:07 <andythenorth> it's all a happy place
08:41:57 <peter1138> only because nobody uses their grfs
08:41:58 <planetmaker> I gave that person a good straight down in private. We shall see
08:42:04 <V453000> andythenorth: because 99% registered people have solved with captcha :D ... nobody talking about 80% of all people who havent solved the captcha
08:42:21 <andythenorth> I'm not the smartest
08:42:26 <V453000> yeah that sacsac person is wtf
08:43:09 <Supercheese> oh fuck me, was there already a patch to do this?
08:43:32 <Supercheese> new misc_flag to disable intro date randomization
08:43:47 <Supercheese> I didn't check flyspray before coding
08:43:59 <planetmaker> make it decent :D
08:44:28 <Supercheese> I fixed trailing whitespace, N++ should have Ctrl+S set to "Trim trailing whitespace and save" by default, rather than making me do it
08:44:39 <Supercheese> me rebind the hotkey*
08:46:07 <Supercheese> Hmm, preview business, hadn't considered that
08:47:44 <Supercheese> existing patch is similar, but has some weird stuff
08:48:39 <planetmaker> FS#, Supercheese ?
08:49:12 <Supercheese> The patch there does some weird stuff with the bitmask enums
08:50:36 <NGC3982> peter1138: To clarify, i was exploring if breakdowns could be calculable, but i guess it's ment to be random enough to prevent that. :-)
08:52:13 <planetmaker> NGC3982, they are as random as computers can random
08:53:02 <planetmaker> it works like having a reliability. And a random number is generated, say 0...100. That is compared to the actual reliability. If number > actual reliability ---> break down
08:53:36 <planetmaker> and the reliability is decremented frequently. And set to the vehicle's max during servicing
09:00:16 <peter1138> planetmaker, read the code ;)
09:02:20 <planetmaker> peter1138, I know. it's not 0...100. And there's a translation in the decrement
09:02:30 <planetmaker> but that doesn't help to explain it quickly
09:03:29 <planetmaker> or do you want to say I describe it conceptually wrong? I think not
09:05:46 <peter1138> there's an additional step
09:06:56 <peter1138> right, should i use 504E or 1138 for making newgrfs?
09:09:27 <peter1138> already used 504E for a couple
09:09:56 <planetmaker> how lame. you should change ;-)
09:10:23 <NGC3982> planetmaker, peter1138: I think i understand what point was made, 0-100 or not.
09:10:52 <peter1138> just look in vehicle.cpp :-)
09:12:29 <NGC3982> What language is this? It reminds me of my (short) time with C#.
09:12:49 <NGC3982> And also, i love the elaborated comments.
09:13:22 <TinoDidriksen> C++ should remind you of C#, as C# was designed as a mix of C++ and Java.
09:14:11 <TinoDidriksen> (some use .cc or .cxx or even .c++ for insane people)
09:20:36 <Supercheese> Oh hmm, I'm not sure I'm allowed to distribute my example grf
09:21:08 <Supercheese> and grfcodec seems to hate all my other grfs
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09:23:16 <peter1138> why does mb always put quotes around waypoints?
09:27:50 <Supercheese> Ok, new example grf
09:31:18 <Supercheese> Whew, think I'm done for the night, time for sleep
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09:47:52 <peter1138> and now we know: large maps are unpopular
09:52:18 <peter1138> solo bit at the end, woo
09:52:24 <peter1138> instrumental bit i mean
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10:00:15 <peter1138> meh, cba to argue with mb
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10:58:23 <NGC3982> Yes, how can i help you.
10:58:28 <NGC3982> That seems to be a fitting nickname.
11:01:09 <NGC3982> The poluting situation in China is horrendous.
11:02:35 <__ln__> yeah, think about the pandas.
11:07:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i've heard these exact same stories about japan 20 years ago...
11:08:43 <Flygon> Except Japan has motivation to become efficient
11:09:14 <Flygon> China's... not so much
11:17:01 <Eddi|zuHause> there have been smog catastrophes all over europe in the 1950s
11:18:11 <NGC3982> My problem is that a government can look at it and go "Eh, we've got better things to do."
11:19:11 <andythenorth> "Something Must be Done"
11:19:40 <andythenorth> but where to start?
11:19:44 <andythenorth> child mortality?
11:19:48 <andythenorth> clean drinking water?
11:21:07 <andythenorth> still, have to start somewhere
11:21:20 <peter1138> work... or secret project...
11:22:11 <andythenorth> if hitting 'refresh' on redmine is 'work' then I'm working
11:22:47 <NGC3982> FIRS should have more mineral mines.
11:23:03 <NGC3982> So we can deliver plumbing to towns.
11:23:06 <andythenorth> all out of cargos
11:23:19 <andythenorth> enough is enough
11:23:39 <NGC3982> More cargo! More cargo!
11:34:25 <Flygon> I'm not sure Australia had smog problems ever
11:34:38 <Flygon> Melbourne has had huge fog, dust storm, rain, and... other problems
11:34:48 <Flygon> Fire smoke is localized and outside of cities
11:35:08 <Flygon> Melbourne can literally pump water from the ocean at fires
13:05:25 <Bad_Brett> a question guys... I'm going to do some rather high ships. It will probably look really weird when they pass under bridges. if they are used to collect sea-based resources near the map edge, it might not happen som frequently, but still... any suggestions? cutting the height is not an option as I see it
13:06:21 <andythenorth> I have at least one with that problem
13:06:41 <Pinkbeast> Any ship big enough to look good as a ship already looks Silly going around canal corners - don't sweat it.
13:08:56 <andythenorth> or draw smaller ships
13:09:39 <Pinkbeast> I'm pretty sure some FISH ships are a tight fit around the corners. :-P
13:10:11 <andythenorth> totally fucked tbh
13:11:48 <Bad_Brett> hmm... it would be nice if it was possible to prevent bigger ships from entering canals and rivers
13:12:49 <V453000> omfg how about having rails which look like water
13:13:06 <V453000> fuck this could be awesome
13:13:21 <michi_cc> Bad_Brett: You can have different speeds for sea and canals/rivers which YAPF will consider when choosing a route (can't totally prevent it though).
13:13:34 <Pikka> where are the FISH sailing ships? :)
13:13:48 * Pikka thinks navigations would still be better coded as a roadtype
13:14:39 <Pinkbeast> I think canal boats are a more pressing omission given that the existing Sailing Ships grf
13:14:56 <Pinkbeast> Er that sentence no verb but YKWIM
13:16:06 <Bad_Brett> <michi_cc> yes of course! I set canal_speed_fraction to a really low value on the bigger ships
13:16:14 <Bad_Brett> and the opposite for smaller ships
13:16:57 <Bad_Brett> that will certainly prevent some of the silliness
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13:56:50 <NGC3982> I can't seem to find any information on this. In the Swedish Trains (7.2) NewGRF, some engines are invisible. I do not know if it's on purpose or local issue.
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14:14:25 <NGC3982> I just have to re-install and re-check the current version.
14:36:13 <Flygon> There's a trainset for every country but South America, Middle-East, and Oceania
14:36:24 <Flygon> Which means that 70% of the world lacks a trainset :B
14:40:58 <planetmaker> 2ccTS has trains from all three
14:42:18 <V453000> there is even a trainset from another universe
14:47:03 <NGC3982> But not yet a Tron-set!
14:53:02 <NGC3982> I seriosly believe that a Tron map type, scenario, music and NewGRF would be So fun.
14:53:20 <NGC3982> I wish i had the will to create it.
14:53:44 <Eddi|zuHause> a slight recolouring of the Nyan tail would probably make for a decent tron-bike-thingie :p
14:54:30 <NGC3982> Actually, most of the NUTS maglev/monorail engines look like decent models for a Tron NewGRF
14:54:48 <NGC3982> With a darker color palette.
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15:04:56 <V453000> track_overlay is what shows on bridges?
15:06:31 <V453000> well yeah im reading that
15:06:40 <peter1138> 06 - bridge surfaces, i would assume
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15:07:41 <V453000> I will see what I can do :)
15:12:39 <peter1138> you wanted to draw non-overlayed junctions didn't you?
15:13:24 <Pikka> I wanted the possibility to have single-sprite junctions, yes
15:13:26 <Eddi|zuHause> one sprite for the whole junction, i.e. 2^6 sprites?
15:13:30 <Pikka> "I wanted to draw" is a bit strong :)
15:13:46 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, basically yes
15:14:30 <Pikka> I'd sooner have roadtypes!
15:14:31 <Eddi|zuHause> especially for switches this would be useful, to ommit this weird triangle-trackbase
15:14:50 <peter1138> i can do this much quicker :p
15:15:08 <peter1138> basically it means adding a flag
15:15:45 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: if you are at it, define the diagonal-rail-crossing-overlay sprites (+4 to the crossing overlay) :)
15:15:56 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, separate feature
15:42:52 <NGC3982> This is a bit embarrasing. I have been using FIRS for so long, i can't seem to get normal industries running again.
15:43:14 <NGC3982> I tried smaller trains (and multiple stations) to get production to increase, with more gold being transported from the station.
15:43:22 <peter1138> naturally placed, eh?
15:49:40 <peter1138> what's the problem?
15:49:54 <peter1138> you're assuming that gold production is high?
15:50:54 <NGC3982> According to the Wiki, there should be a 83% chanse of production increase for the mines with >80% transported.
15:51:18 <NGC3982> And that does not happend, thus i wonder what i am missing.
15:51:20 <planetmaker> NGC3982, firs != default industries
15:51:27 <NGC3982> Yes, i know. Read again.
15:51:49 <planetmaker> so your assumption of when an industry increases based on wiki is...irrelevant to how FIRS behaves
15:52:09 <planetmaker> oh... normal as in not using FIRS. I mis-understood that :D
15:52:11 <Pinkbeast> planetmaker: er but he says "I can't seem to get normal industries running again"
15:52:34 <planetmaker> like normal FIRS industries and fancy firs industries. whatever :-P
15:52:57 <peter1138> NGC3982, why would you belece the wiki?
15:52:59 <NGC3982> I guess i'm not understanding the Wiki or something, since production does not increase from it's original state (when founded), but only seems to go down (and up to normal again), despite me having excellent service and >80% transported.
15:53:07 <NGC3982> peter1138: What does "belece" mean?
15:53:23 <peter1138> NGC3982, why would you believe the wiki?
15:53:39 <peter1138> are you using smooth ecomony?
15:53:55 <NGC3982> It's not like i have any alternatives.
15:54:22 <V453000> NGC3982: just note that the production probably increases a lot slower than with FIRS
15:54:32 <V453000> rest is service industries, done
15:55:01 <NGC3982> V453000: I thought that too, but i notice that no difference (at all) is made after 30 game years.
15:55:04 <peter1138> if over 60% is transported, 33% of *decrease*
15:55:13 <peter1138> if over 80% is transport, 16% of decrease
15:55:37 <peter1138> 4.5% chance of 3-23% increase
15:56:06 <NGC3982> I think i succeeded (a bit) by letting the first station use Full load orders, and the the other station Load if available orders.
15:56:09 <peter1138> 33% chance of decrease, even
15:56:19 <V453000> how fast trains do you have NGC3982
15:56:22 <NGC3982> peter1138: Yes, so i noticed.
15:56:29 <NGC3982> V453000: Monorail, 400-ish km/h.
15:56:43 <peter1138> so "83% chance of increase for 80% transported" is... uh... what?
15:56:44 <V453000> I know that for example with original trains the increase is for a long time not too significant, but when station ratings increase with the 200kmh+ trains, it skyrockets quickly
15:57:03 <NGC3982> peter1138: Hopefully more than 0% increase in production over 30 years, right?
15:57:36 <V453000> idk, it is possible that some industries arent growing too much even for 30 years
15:57:58 <V453000> how many do you have connected
15:58:00 <NGC3982> Since i noticed a small change directly after my order changes, ill let this run for a few years and see what happends.
15:58:18 <V453000> do you have a train always loading at the station?
15:58:51 <peter1138> NGC3982, 4.5% chance of a small increase... not huge :p
15:59:25 <V453000> think gold tends to increase less, but I am not sure there
15:59:28 <NGC3982> peter1138: I know, but at least it's something.
15:59:44 <V453000> I did have 2295 gold mines too, so ..
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16:29:17 <NGC3982> Seriosly, Andy Dick in Star Trek.
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16:37:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it's just a slight variation of japanese soldiers isolated on some islands who never got notice of the war having ended
16:45:37 <__ln__> i don't know if requires being isolated from society to be unaware of WW II... just ask modern day teenagers and young adults.
16:46:36 <NGC3982> Welcome to Sweden, we don't teach our kids anything BUT WWII.
16:47:21 <NGC3982> Nonody knows how Pol Pot, Mussolini or Edwin Hubble is.
16:47:45 <__ln__> Umm, wasn't Mussolini part of WW II?
16:48:21 <NGC3982> Does not matter, he was not jewish and was not killed in Auswitch.
16:48:39 <NGC3982> The Swedish school system has since the war teached a biased anti Nazi agenda.
16:49:03 <NGC3982> Teaching kids not to be nazis might be good, but the agenda neglects equally important historical events.
16:49:09 <NGC3982> Stalin, for instance.
16:53:26 <__ln__> Some years ago #elsewhere a Unitedstatesian person was saying that a lot of people in the US think that WW II was about Americans allying with Germans to fight the Soviets.
16:53:47 <Pinkbeast> Well, it could have turned out that way.
16:54:28 <NGC3982> Well, during the Cold war it might have.
16:55:06 <Pinkbeast> No, I mean I think it's entirely plausible that the war in the 40s might have been that way with effective German diplomacy.
16:55:48 <Pinkbeast> Presumably leaving Japan as a Soviet ally on a "my enemy's enemy" principle and China... confused.
17:01:27 <Eddi|zuHause> in the US there were certainly supporters of germany, especially in the early days of the war
17:02:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the Soviet Union was officially neutral to Japan except for the very last phase of the war
17:03:04 <NGC3982> I short: They ale ate poop and the only positive thing with the war was that nobody wanted to do such thing again.
17:03:37 <NGC3982> Well, we are living in the most peaceful times of human history.
17:03:59 <NGC3982> The popular notion of everything going down the tubes is illogical and wrong.
17:04:10 <andythenorth> don't jinx it eh?
17:04:30 * NGC3982 wages war against Suomi.
17:04:40 <andythenorth> possibly people conflate their own "omg I'm going to die" with "everything gets worse"
17:04:51 <andythenorth> or they miss their childhood or something
17:04:58 <andythenorth> and bury themselves in nostalgia
17:05:02 <andythenorth> like playing old games
17:05:45 <NGC3982> I usually try to point that out when people born before the seventees say "It was better before", that they can always wage a new Cold War if they want too.
17:07:02 <Eddi|zuHause> "it was better before" is a well researched effect of bad memories fading faster than good memories
17:08:28 * andythenorth can remember all the bad things
17:08:36 <andythenorth> obsessive weirdo
17:08:56 <__ln__> and if it includes the "when i was young, we didn't have ..." part, it's also the effect of ignoring that older people's life wasn't as luxurious either back then.
17:10:20 <NGC3982> That, though, is hard to explain to people like that.
17:10:28 <NGC3982> People that want cheese to their drink.
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17:49:48 <peter1138> chips platforms are asymmetric
17:51:12 <andythenorth> I wasn't very diligent
17:51:22 <andythenorth> and then I screwed with them so they fit pikka's tracks
17:51:28 <andythenorth> they're broken for other railtypes
17:51:43 <peter1138> depending how you count :p
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17:53:19 <peter1138> not that i'm stealing them
17:54:18 <peter1138> could do with one that looks like wood
17:55:41 <Eddi|zuHause> wooden platforms?
17:57:12 <V453000> Q: can two neighbouring rails between them be coded so that they do not have grass in the middle, but yes on the outsides?
17:57:31 <V453000> like when you have rails next to each other, there is grass only outside of the railway
17:57:40 <V453000> not anywhere among the rails
17:58:10 <V453000> similarly to how fences work
17:58:26 <V453000> no fences inside, no grass inside
17:59:01 <Eddi|zuHause> make the groundsprite dirt, and put the grass into the fence sprite?
17:59:40 <Eddi|zuHause> may be tricky, because the fence is reused on both sides
17:59:40 <V453000> I thought about that, but fences often appear away from the actual rails
18:00:24 <Eddi|zuHause> then i fear it's not possible without a 40+ variable that checks the neighbouring tiles
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18:01:24 <V453000> which isnt there for railtypes right
18:01:45 <Eddi|zuHause> but it would be needed for curvy rail and stuff
18:04:10 <peter1138> although i don't want it in black & white
18:04:23 <peter1138> not particularly wild-west
18:05:12 <andythenorth> TTD style wood would be like the log cabin
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18:08:37 <peter1138> well that's ... logs
18:09:27 <andythenorth> that, but on the ground
18:09:30 <andythenorth> so differently lit
18:26:21 <peter1138> not that i'm doing anything with stations
18:26:33 <peter1138> who the feck designed this spec? :S
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18:33:58 <andythenorth> hmm diagonal canals
18:34:06 <andythenorth> shall I just fricking draw them, and hope?
18:34:34 <peter1138> code them as objects ;)
18:34:52 <peter1138> i guess objects don't allow vehicles on them
18:34:54 <andythenorth> ships can't drive over objects :P
18:35:01 <peter1138> should be possible!
18:39:03 <Supercheese> peter1138: code them as objects -- that's what I offered to do for andy, but nooooo
18:41:17 <andythenorth> it's just technical debt
18:41:25 <andythenorth> short term gain that will have to be paid off with real code later
18:42:59 <Supercheese> well, the graphics would exist, surely that's a plus, no?
18:44:46 <Supercheese> frosch seems to be very much against disabling intro date randomizing...
18:45:29 <Supercheese> I've made my arguments...
18:45:38 <frosch123> randomness is the core of every game
18:45:40 <Supercheese> and they're not related to introducing vehicle sets simultaneously
18:46:01 <planetmaker> so the point should be: make vehicles available together which need be
18:46:04 <Supercheese> Not like it would disable randomization for *every* vehicle
18:46:25 <Supercheese> just those with historical importance (or whatever other reason the grf author decides)
18:46:31 <frosch123> planetmaker: he was about introducing stuff historically correct
18:46:35 <planetmaker> that'd be inevitably be the result of the "disable randomization newgrf"
18:46:43 <Supercheese> What on Earth is wrong with that?
18:46:45 <frosch123> that's the only reason actually why i did not close it directly
18:46:50 <V453000> I also agree that only vehicles introducing each other would be great to have, but other than that the random is fine
18:46:50 <planetmaker> frosch123, or that, defining an order of introduction
18:46:51 <Supercheese> I don't really like the randomization
18:46:58 <frosch123> though i wonder why he did not ask to disable randomisation of lifetimes as well :p
18:47:04 <Supercheese> other people might not like it
18:47:18 <Supercheese> why not let people disable it if they want, others can not disable it if they want?
18:47:20 <frosch123> Supercheese: play chess then
18:47:26 <frosch123> chess has no random
18:47:40 <frosch123> that's why some people do not consider it a game
18:47:54 <Supercheese> Just because some people don't like it is a lame argument IMO
18:47:57 <frosch123> and others consider it sports :)
18:48:29 <Supercheese> perhaps if the argument was "bit 7 is the last free bit, we don't want to use it up yet", that would make more sense
18:49:34 * Alberth is always happy with free bits
18:50:29 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: care to make a beer joke?
18:52:43 <Supercheese> Well, ok, I do understand the counter-arguments. How to best introduce historically important vehicles as close to the real date as possible, then?
18:53:03 <Supercheese> set the intro date earlier?
18:53:20 <V453000> less realism more brain?
18:53:35 <Alberth> Supercheese: don't try to import reality into a game, imho
18:54:38 <Zuu> Give more power to GSes :-)
19:02:23 <andythenorth> FISH is broken wrt intro dates
19:02:39 <andythenorth> ships disappear, and no replacement appears for ~some years
19:06:27 *** Superuser has joined #openttd
19:08:38 <Guilux> hi in 'ere, dou you have any ideas about installing openttd on debian wheezy please ?
19:09:08 <Alberth> just use the linux binary?
19:09:10 <frosch123> just get it from you package manager
19:09:19 *** supermop has joined #openttd
19:12:06 <Guilux> the thing is the ubuntu version too low (1.2.1)
19:12:39 <Guilux> I have me server running debian wheezy and clients runing ubuntu various versions
19:12:40 <Alberth> euhm, installing on debian, but a wrong ubuntu?????
19:13:13 <planetmaker> Guilux, yes, still. First install. Then manually download "the newest" version on both
19:13:34 <planetmaker> that download can just be placed in a directory of your choice. The install makes sure you got all necessary things
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19:15:44 <Guilux> so i shouls start with something like this ? openttd-1.2.3-linux-generic-i686.tar.gz
19:16:47 <Alberth> Guilux: that's one way, but you need other files too. You can download them manully, or get them as part of the regular package manager openttd install
19:17:18 <Guilux> when trying to dpkg -i the .deb 1.2.3, I have trouble with libicu and liblzma with seem too recent
19:17:57 <frosch123> yes, use the generic binary if you have not the exactly matching distribution
19:17:59 <Alberth> debian provides non-compatible packages? :o
19:18:17 <Zuu> planetmaker / Alberth: the bootstrap dowload thingy, is that windows only? (the thing in OpenTTD itself that offers to download OpenGFX if it cannot be found)
19:18:33 <frosch123> Zuu: it's win and linux
19:18:52 <frosch123> Alberth: do you really think rb would code something win only? :o
19:18:59 <Zuu> So he could just get the desired version and let the bootstrap do the work?
19:19:30 <Alberth> frosch123: Perhaps I should the README more often :p
19:19:35 <Guilux> okay I check back in some minutes, thx for your help
19:21:17 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd
19:21:51 <DorpsGek> FLHerne: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
19:22:23 <planetmaker> Zuu, it should work on linux, too
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19:30:21 <supermop> my work macbook air is bricked
19:30:40 <supermop> and i cant put a boot disc in it because it has no disc drive
19:31:38 <andythenorth> and thunderbolt has nothing useful like FW target mode
19:31:54 <andythenorth> and it's not user serviceable, so you can't flip the drive
19:32:11 <supermop> its only 2 months old too!
19:32:14 <andythenorth> it's an oversized, overpriced, underspecced iPad
19:32:17 <supermop> as my last air was stolen
19:32:25 <frosch123> is that when you throw a brick onto it?
19:32:35 <supermop> i have to go on site a lot
19:32:36 <andythenorth> trip to the apple store
19:32:40 <supermop> so the weight is nice -
19:32:50 <supermop> but my vaio Z is lighter
19:33:13 <andythenorth> if you have airs, you need daily time machine or carbon copy cloner backup (everyone should anyway)
19:33:17 <supermop> and still has a optical drive, and ssd and ram i can remove
19:33:17 <andythenorth> and a spare one in the office
19:33:39 <andythenorth> then you can restore typically in about ~1hr
19:33:43 <supermop> we have two new airs and two old mbps
19:33:45 <andythenorth> especially if you have USB 3
19:33:54 <supermop> guess which i wish i still was 'stuck' with
19:33:59 <andythenorth> give them 5 years, they'll be commodity and disposable
19:34:06 <andythenorth> right now we're in a weird place where they're not
19:34:13 <andythenorth> so if it dies you're a bit fucked
19:34:22 <supermop> well the aluminum probably has some scrap value
19:34:32 <blathijs> supermop: Can't it just boot from USB?
19:34:45 <andythenorth> yeah actually it probably can
19:34:59 <supermop> dont have one of the apple usb optical drives
19:35:20 * andythenorth has fallen victim to apple paranoia again
19:35:20 <supermop> or anything else on usb with setup disc stuff on it
19:35:30 <supermop> but should make one in the future?
19:35:37 <peter1138> hmm, anyone involved in grfcodec know why some nml-created grfs can't be decoded?
19:35:45 <supermop> i don't know our company used to use all thinkpads
19:35:46 <andythenorth> my default assumption is that in last 3 years apple have just made everything impossible to service
19:35:51 <peter1138> might be sound-effect related but i don't know
19:36:01 <supermop> then we grew a lot and only bought apple
19:36:05 <andythenorth> but actually whenever I have to deal with it, they haven't. I am just getting old and apple-hatey
19:36:23 <supermop> some people are stuck with the old think pads but they still work
19:36:55 <peter1138> a decent thinkpad is way better than macbook
19:36:57 <frosch123> peter1138: maybe it's some kind of drm
19:37:06 <supermop> also our airport whatever wont play nice with my vaio when i bring it in from home
19:37:14 <peter1138> frosch123, seems to read beyond the end of the sound effect
19:37:29 <andythenorth> fwiw, I have never been able to encode a sound effect with OS X grfcodec
19:37:34 <andythenorth> which I may have reported
19:37:41 <supermop> otherwise i would just use my personal computer all the time
19:37:44 <andythenorth> probly unrelated
19:37:49 <peter1138> frosch123, oh, DRM, not GRM... heh
19:37:50 <frosch123> peter1138: well, might well be that noone tested container 2 decoding with sounds
19:38:16 <supermop> anyway 'genius' bar appointment for 5:30
19:39:04 <supermop> FIRS + CargoDist + Neighbors Are Important
19:40:12 <supermop> nothing grows, except the smallest of towns with lots of work
19:40:22 <Guilux> okay another question for the guys sitting in front of a screen ... should clients and servers run the exact same version ?
19:41:00 <Guilux> or the server running an oldish version to ensure compatibility ?
19:41:13 <frosch123> the versions need to match exactly
19:46:27 <peter1138> i suppose i should fix up these sprites before coding
19:47:16 <andythenorth> I often do it after coding
19:48:07 <FLHerne> supermop: Odd, that sounds like my current game :P
19:48:21 <FLHerne> Try TaI houses. Slows it down even more :D
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19:49:06 <Various> alguem fala portugues aqui?
19:53:36 <andythenorth> frosch123: meh, you'll hate me for this
19:53:59 <andythenorth> when in the game setup are vehicle intro dates randomised?
19:54:11 <planetmaker> map creation iirc
19:54:14 <frosch123> during "resetengines"
19:54:26 <andythenorth> the reason you'll hate me is I haven't read code :P
19:54:29 <frosch123> just like reliability
19:54:41 <andythenorth> for the newgrf MU case (which might be bogus anyway)
19:54:50 <andythenorth> find set of all unique dates
19:54:57 <andythenorth> write back to vehicles?
19:55:38 <andythenorth> I don't care either way, I'm just pleased when I can think of a non-convoluted solution :P
19:58:28 <andythenorth> no need for linked lists or anything on newgrf side
19:58:52 <andythenorth> no player setting
19:59:11 <frosch123> i think there was some usecase where using the introdate only did not work
19:59:25 <frosch123> it should be in the linked discusssion
19:59:43 <andythenorth> you want me to read stuff? :P
19:59:48 <andythenorth> I didn't sign up for that
20:00:03 <frosch123> no, i expect you already know it
20:00:04 <andythenorth> is the MU case so vital anyway?
20:01:05 <Supercheese> wait, which case...
20:01:12 <supermop> well every large town requires a ton of gasoline in addition to mail and people
20:01:29 <supermop> and there are still no oil refineries after 50 years
20:01:58 <Supercheese> Linked intro dates is separate from just non-random intro dates
20:02:11 <supermop> and all the above grfs mean that i dont have the insane money one would expect to build them myself
20:02:25 <andythenorth> FIRS hasn't built you any refineries?
20:02:33 <supermop> on this map id need at least 8 to feed these towns
20:02:42 <Supercheese> FIRS refineries are somewhat few and far between
20:02:54 <andythenorth> probability is hard
20:02:54 <supermop> it still builds me the occasional alu plant
20:03:00 <andythenorth> Supercheese: the FIRS economy?
20:03:06 <andythenorth> or one of the Basics?
20:03:13 <andythenorth> FIRS economy is just too big
20:03:24 <andythenorth> it will never work right with current OpenTTD
20:03:33 <andythenorth> except on large maps with high industry setting
20:03:47 <supermop> well really i wish i had dudes, mail, and food as the growth cargoes
20:04:00 <andythenorth> the Basic economies are more directly rewarding to play IMHO
20:04:24 <supermop> and neighbors are important can be a bit too unforgiving
20:04:37 <Supercheese> Yeah, I find 256x512 to be min. size to play FIRS full economy
20:04:41 * peter1138 fixes groundtiles.png
20:04:51 <peter1138> so the sprites don't overlap edges :p
20:05:54 <peter1138> hmm, should i... raise the edges
20:07:43 <andythenorth> what does it fix?
20:09:37 <peter1138> just a few pixels in the wrong places
20:18:30 <andythenorth> multiply by number of players
20:18:39 <andythenorth> that's ~25,000 pixels fixed
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20:24:28 <V453000> what are the basic things required for a railtype newGRF to work?
20:24:32 <V453000> underlay, overlay, something else?
20:24:51 <planetmaker> and a mouse trap. While we're at it
20:24:53 <frosch123> V453000: isn't that marked in the wiki?
20:25:19 <frosch123> yeah, there is a footnote about it
20:25:26 <V453000> there is a ton of callbacks but I am asking which are the most basic ones
20:25:52 <planetmaker> the ones with the appropriate footnotes :-)
20:25:52 <V453000> so basically all the [1] things?
20:26:21 <V453000> I thought like you need to provide all sprites of the spriteset :D i was wondering about that
20:27:36 <V453000> nothing :D I was just confused
20:28:15 <V453000> I thought the "all of these sprites should be defined" was meaning all the 16 sprites in, say, overlay spriteset
20:28:22 <V453000> just misunderstanding :)
20:28:45 <planetmaker> yes. you need to provide all 16 sprites there, all other sprites in the other necessary spritesets, too
20:29:30 <V453000> yeah, that was the more important information :D I didnt even consider having spriteset with less sprites than the normal amount
20:30:07 <planetmaker> what is "normal"?
20:30:39 <V453000> e.g. for underlay, normal amount of sprites is 16
20:31:10 <V453000> ye, well whatever, I understand it now :)
20:31:40 <peter1138> ohgrshgaehrghrehgiarhg
20:31:54 <peter1138> gimp uses alt-drag to move a selection
20:32:04 <peter1138> side-effect, alt-drag moves windows in most window managers...
20:32:37 <frosch123> well, that also moves the selection, doesn't it?
20:33:06 <peter1138> only on screen, not relative to the graphics :p
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20:37:50 <V453000> signals are the same for all railtypes or is it possible to change signals for different rails?
20:38:14 <frosch123> take a look at the last row
20:39:18 <V453000> was searching in signals section instead of callbacks :D I probably shouldnt do this tonight
20:40:34 <V453000> well, that makes things more interesting :>
20:41:03 <peter1138> ah, there's another tool that can move selections...
20:41:07 <frosch123> you could replace the semaphore sprites with something useful
20:41:41 <V453000> nah I might just find useful custom signals for one specific railtype
20:41:49 <frosch123> a red signal could just be a pokemon sleeping on the rails
20:42:33 <V453000> another thing I was considering is signals causing arrows on tracks
20:42:39 <V453000> like >>>>>>>>>>>>> style track
20:42:43 <V453000> if you see what I mean
20:43:52 <V453000> well I might have the insanotracks complete in just a few days :P you will see
20:44:19 <supermop> oh man we should implement custom roadtypes to give mario kart [?] blocks on the road
20:44:46 <Supercheese> that would be pretty funny I gues
20:44:57 <andythenorth> V453000: you should do a truck set
20:45:02 <andythenorth> there aren't any good ones
20:45:06 <andythenorth> not really good ones
20:45:16 <V453000> eGRVTS is satisfactory for me
20:45:33 <V453000> I dont use RVs in my games..
20:45:34 <andythenorth> bandit has been shot
20:45:53 <andythenorth> bandit is a turkey
20:46:12 <V453000> but I have some evil plans, you will see
20:52:23 <andythenorth> I should resurect bandit
20:54:13 <V453000> it looks majorly broken on the heaps :D
20:54:29 <Supercheese> "Biglorryblog", that sounds like a monster in bad LotR fanfiction or something :P
20:57:00 <peter1138> sounds like something on HIGNFY
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21:02:19 <supermop> just make a mercedes truck set
21:02:57 <Supercheese> Isn't there already one of those? or was it for simutrans...
21:03:31 <frosch123> lv3 sorted by manufacturer
21:16:02 *** valhallasw has joined #openttd
21:46:13 <frosch123> hmm, now i am unsure...
22:01:56 <andythenorth> but time for tubby bye bye
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23:00:01 <peter1138> did anyone write a scriptable sprite combining system?
23:02:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i wanted to abuse pixa for that, but never got around to
23:07:44 <peter1138> hmm, could just do it manually with ... layers
23:10:45 <Eddi|zuHause> pixa is andy's tool for making trucks out of a line of pixels
23:11:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's on devzone somewhere
23:12:47 <peter1138> i'm going with layers i think
23:12:53 <peter1138> too many special cases anyway
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23:19:35 <peter1138> gimp can do hierarchical layers
23:19:44 <peter1138> i know this cos it's there in an imported PSD file
23:19:45 <Eddi|zuHause> "i closed the console with 'exit' [please save beforehand!]" :p
23:19:57 <peter1138> but... how do i create hierarchical layers?
23:20:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i really have no clue about gimp
23:24:24 <peter1138> it doesn't work in... 8bpp mode... USEFUL
23:25:55 <peter1138> in that case, i won't bother
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23:41:23 <peter1138> could do with conditional layouts...
23:42:14 <Kimmey> advertising to the master server is failing * How can i fix that ? :(
23:42:58 <DorpsGek> glx: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
23:44:52 <Kimmey> pleas allow UDP and TCP packets to port 3979 to be delivered ..
23:45:17 <peter1138> i'm sure that's how it works
23:47:13 <Kimmey> i have been in the router and used port 3979 TCP/UDP to that ip i'm using
23:48:16 <Kimmey> 188.113.69.17:3979 can any1 try this ?
23:50:19 <Kimmey> but to get it advertised then ?
23:55:28 <NGC3982> It seems he did not save our previous discussion
23:55:50 <NGC3982> Since he wrote the exact same questions today, as we handled in a PM yesterday.
23:56:42 <Kimmey> im sorry for all this questions , but i want it to work :(
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23:59:17 <Kimmey> but i don't understand why its not advertising and this ports -.-
continue to next day ⏵
