IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2013-01-27
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00:07:45 *** Progman has joined #openttd
00:19:13 <Supercheese> Hmm, where do I find a list of all groundsprites...
00:22:11 <Supercheese> Sprite aligner might have those
00:29:40 <Eddi|zuHause> the opengfx repo?
00:29:48 <Supercheese> sprite aligner had them
00:30:18 <Supercheese> I only needed the numbers
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00:35:27 <Supercheese> Blarg, I need to make my objects snow- and desert-aware T_T
00:36:59 <Pikka> it's getting a bit wooly out there
00:37:33 <Supercheese> Is it just me, or do the OGFX+ landscape Wind Turbines freeze on one frame?
00:37:51 <Pikka> none of the weather stations are reporting much rainfall
00:37:55 <Pikka> because it's all coming in sideways
00:40:50 <Pikka> snow and desert aware is for chumps
00:41:15 <Supercheese> I guess I can just pass the spritelayout the tile_type in an argument
00:41:22 <Supercheese> hopefully make it simple
00:42:33 <oftcrash> So I'm trying to make Mars more productive rather than just laying about the solar system, but I'm struggling a bit with industry definition
00:43:07 <oftcrash> how are the input_multiplier_x fields used?
00:43:59 <oftcrash> and then I'm also in dire need of some schooling around callbacks
00:44:04 <Supercheese> Hmm, I dunno, I'd say look at another NML grf
00:44:15 <Supercheese> FIRS has like, 4 layers of abstraction, though
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00:44:36 <oftcrash> I'm trying to make an industry dependent on incoming cargo. It uses the "produce_cargo_arrival" callback
00:44:59 <oftcrash> Yeah, I've been trying to work my way through FIRS
00:45:38 <Supercheese> blah, I need the processed NML output, this python wizardry is intense
00:46:38 <Supercheese> Looks like every FIRS industry has [0,0] for input_multiplier_x
00:47:05 <oftcrash> I tried to work with the build scripts on openttdcoop - they are very thorough, but I ended up rolling my own instead. Need to learn Python anyway.
00:47:21 <Supercheese> (that link is the processed NML, much easier to read)
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00:47:42 <oftcrash> Yeah, I saw that. I can't tell if its because its something they don't need, or they do something fancy someplace else so that isn't needed
00:49:39 <Supercheese> looks like everything is handled in produce blocks
00:56:22 <oftcrash> There's a lot more going on in those than is in the wiki :)
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01:41:41 <Supercheese> It seems there's a 99% chance "@seen Pikka" will end up with "Pikka: hmm" :P
01:42:55 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: pokka was last seen in #openttd 6 days, 8 hours, 34 minutes, and 56 seconds ago: <Pokka> if not more
01:43:05 <Supercheese> Yeah, snow- and desert-awareness was easier than I thought
02:05:02 <Supercheese> Uh oh, more Simuscape drama
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02:26:57 <Flygon> Apperantly a car that could go 130km/h flat-out was considered fast in Australia, in the 60s... gah. Europe's been kicking our arse since the 30s @_@
02:44:16 <Eddi|zuHause> even in the late 30s there were cars that could go 160 on a regular basis
02:44:49 <Eddi|zuHause> they were mighty expensive, though
02:46:26 <Flygon> Eddi: Here, well... nothing really went that fast. Barring airplanes.
02:46:56 <Flygon> There is that one steam locomotive class from New South Wales, but that barely prodded 160...
02:47:51 <Eddi|zuHause> we had scheduled steam trains running at that speed
02:53:34 <Flygon> Eddi: Ah. Here... well, we tended to have scedules that were slower than the trains
02:53:57 <Flygon> But even when the paper recorders ran out of paper, the trains rarely got to actually show their full force (lest conspicuousness show)
02:54:41 <Flygon> eg. the S-class here reached 140km/h, and the driver and fireman only went slower because they didn't want to look any faster than 20 minutes ahead of schedule
02:54:54 <Flygon> Nominal line speed was between 80 to 130
02:55:35 <Flygon> Frustratingly, even more advanced VR engines have been restored... and restricted to 80 due to beaurocratic mess
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05:24:51 <Supercheese> (and other stuff)
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07:42:09 <andythenorth> Pikka: you ok? Seen the weather reports
07:42:23 <Pikka> just been for a drive to the shops :)
07:44:42 <Pikka> whose idea was recoding TaI, anyway? D:
07:46:59 <Pikka> lack of a global random seed is annoying
07:47:12 <Pikka> just have to make it a parameter D:
07:47:51 <andythenorth> there's no shenanigans with map you can do?
07:48:00 <andythenorth> position of first town or something?
07:48:15 <andythenorth> peter1138 ^ pikka needs a global random seed for newgrf
07:48:22 <andythenorth> can you make it so? :P
07:49:04 <Pikka> there is one global persistent storage per grf
07:50:25 <Pikka> I don't know if that means industries can access it via related object?
07:50:28 <andythenorth> what happened to the Vossloh thingy in UKRS 2?
07:50:54 <andythenorth> they're 99mph :O
07:51:06 <Pikka> not UK loading gauge though
07:51:06 <andythenorth> and way too much power
07:51:39 <andythenorth> hmm, maybe a 'futuristic' genset loco
07:52:00 <andythenorth> only brings more hp online if needed
07:52:07 <andythenorth> how would that even be implemented? :P
07:52:31 <Pikka> these vosslohs are pretty much class 67ish
07:52:35 <Pikka> not like the ones in UKRS1
07:57:41 <andythenorth> need this one :P
07:57:58 <Pikka> that was the one in UKRS1
07:58:02 <Pikka> but it isn't UK loading gauge :)
07:58:12 <andythenorth> chop the cab off :P
07:58:28 <andythenorth> play "let's pretend" :)
08:00:26 <andythenorth> Euro loading gauge
08:00:33 <andythenorth> expensive to convert :P
08:01:01 <Pikka> can't run "normal" passenger trains on it because the platform gap is too big :)
08:01:46 <andythenorth> dedicated freight line
08:06:39 <Pikka> need while loops in nfo :D
08:06:56 <peter1138> hmm, did they build HS1 with a sensible loading gauge?
08:07:16 <peter1138> guess it must be as it goes to europe
08:07:35 <Pikka> eurostars are built to UK loading gauges though
08:08:52 <andythenorth> Central Railway plans have been around for years
08:10:19 <andythenorth> anyway I'm a cheater
08:10:26 <andythenorth> don't care about replicating UK :P
08:10:37 <andythenorth> it's just UKRS 2 is my favourite set right now :P
08:10:55 <andythenorth> and after 20xx it gets a bit meh
08:11:24 <andythenorth> maybe it's a non-problem
08:11:31 <Pikka> but on the other hand, we've pushed the start date forward 100 years
08:11:58 <Pikka> 1850-1950 is a fair trade for 2020-2050?
08:12:10 <andythenorth> I like 1870-2000
08:13:59 <Pikka> actually, my problem is not coming up with a "random" seed
08:14:16 <Pikka> it's turning that seed into an economic state :P
08:14:41 <andythenorth> recession / boom etc?
08:15:15 <andythenorth> bin the existing two, make it extensible
08:15:24 <andythenorth> solve some issues that are currently hard for newgrf
08:15:45 <andythenorth> industry closure is
08:15:49 <andythenorth> dunno about the others
08:16:07 <Pikka> we shall see if I can make the grf live up to my plans
08:16:25 <andythenorth> I should make this port
08:16:29 <andythenorth> then I can release this grf
08:27:54 <andythenorth> these tiles at 1, 255 are interesting :P
08:27:57 <andythenorth> for fishing harbour
08:28:06 <andythenorth> wonder wtf they're supposed to be doing :P
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08:33:52 <Pokka> my computer stayed up through two brownouts
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08:37:47 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
08:39:23 <Pokka> more like the wind blowing things into the powerlines
08:40:23 <andythenorth> one day there'll be an australia set
08:40:32 <andythenorth> I mean a good one :P
08:43:57 <andythenorth> Pokka: what's wrong with it?
08:50:10 <peter1138> 5000 iterations of each layout
08:50:16 <peter1138> but it's not passed to the grf
08:51:01 <peter1138> at least for prospecting. hmm.
08:51:49 <peter1138> 10000 or 2000 tries for ingame placement
08:52:08 <peter1138> depending on whether it is "trying hard" heh
08:52:28 <Alberth> perhaps the initial placement must try harder to ensure not breaking industry chains?
08:54:15 <peter1138> only used on game generation
08:54:54 <peter1138> so can we give that counter as feedback to a newgrf?
08:57:19 <andythenorth> one way to not break chains
08:57:26 <andythenorth> is that newgrf authors shouldn't make stupid grfs
08:57:52 <andythenorth> with 48 industry types
08:58:55 <andythenorth> including industries with massive flat layouts that can't be placed on mountains
09:05:41 <Eddi|zuHause> all you need is a "smaller layouts" parameter+
09:06:03 <Eddi|zuHause> btw, why are your power-outages racist? :p
09:06:09 <andythenorth> redrawing is dull
09:10:50 <Alberth> peter1138: so what would the newgrf do with information "it is hard to build this industry" ?
09:11:49 <Alberth> a different strategy could be to get information on landscape shape requirements
09:12:30 <Alberth> (and do some landscaping to make it fit :) )
09:24:48 <peter1138> larger map, sparser towns
09:25:42 <andythenorth> peter1138: Goal Script :P
09:25:55 <andythenorth> not so good for "let's watch the trains" mind
09:26:28 <Pokka> it would allow "desirable" placement conditions, rather than just "required" ones
09:27:05 <Pokka> 'prefers mountaintops', but will still build /somewhere/ if there are no mountaintops available.
09:27:11 <andythenorth> I assume placement runs the full varaction 2 chain every time though?
09:27:17 <andythenorth> so this could just be done with random?
09:27:26 <andythenorth> 1/8 chance of not building on mountaintops
09:27:38 <Pokka> but I want mountaintops if they're there
09:28:07 <Pokka> and, if not mountaintops, I want hilltops
09:28:59 <Alberth> the other way around is to return a "desirability to build here", instead of yes/no
09:29:30 <Pokka> sounds more complex for you and less transparent for me :)
09:30:48 <andythenorth> do we really need an advanced setting to stop towns building on farmland?
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09:35:23 <Pikka> so what does this do, Alberth?
09:35:41 <Alberth> it keeps track of the most desirable place to build
09:35:56 <Alberth> rather than putting it down at the first spot you say "yes"
09:36:00 <Pikka> how does it decide how desirable a place is?
09:37:09 <Pikka> could work, I guess. :)
09:38:58 <Pikka> wind gust speeds at cape moreton hit 126 km/h :)
09:39:30 <Pikka> 10 minute average speed is now 106 km/h
09:39:41 <Pikka> that's a pretty stiff breeze
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09:43:49 <peter1138> hmm, big map is big
09:45:03 <andythenorth> where is server? :P
09:45:34 <Alberth> hopefully it was not a big server :)
09:45:59 <Eddi|zuHause> make it 2048x2048 with 10 towns and no automatic industries :p
09:46:11 <andythenorth> Pikka: flherne beat you anyway
09:46:28 <andythenorth> peter1138: 'temperate basic' eh?
09:46:36 <andythenorth> you need my new FIRS, with easier supply requirements :P
09:46:54 <andythenorth> not on banananas
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09:55:59 <peter1138> cool, simuscape drama
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10:02:36 <gamebuster> is there a way to extract a .grf? :P
10:05:16 <andythenorth> simuscape dramas? Really
10:05:34 <gamebuster> dammit, grfcodec hates mac users :P
10:06:44 <gamebuster> except for the mac users themselves? :P
10:07:17 <andythenorth> I hate mac users
10:07:23 <andythenorth> grfcodec works fine for me though
10:07:31 <andythenorth> what's the issue?
10:07:54 <gamebuster> not really an issue, just lazy to boot up my windows machine
10:08:02 <gamebuster> but it's booting now, so now I wait... :P
10:08:03 <andythenorth> why not use the OS X build?
10:08:27 <gamebuster> i only see a linux and iwndows build :P
10:09:02 <gamebuster> see, also no osx version :P
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10:10:19 <gamebuster> maybe i could compile it
10:10:27 <gamebuster> but i think using the windows version is faster :P
10:10:35 <gamebuster> i'm not in the mood for compile errors
10:10:52 <andythenorth> maybe I compiled mine
10:10:52 <gamebuster> or you could upload the osx binary :P
10:11:18 <gamebuster> o god, commandline on windows
10:11:49 <gamebuster> i instantly type "cd" and "ls"; they don't work and i should have known that... :P
10:12:00 <gamebuster> now i have to google all commands
10:13:07 <Alberth> are you sure it's faster? :)
10:14:00 <gamebuster> i hate compiling stuff
10:14:03 <gamebuster> it always fails :P
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10:14:38 <gamebuster> src/mapescapes.h:25:10: fatal error: 'boost/bimap.hpp' file not found #include <boost/bimap.hpp> ^ 1 error generated. make: *** [objs/info.o] Error 1
10:15:01 <andythenorth> dunno if it has any deps
10:15:13 <Alberth> doesn't the readme or install instructions say you need boost at the machine?
10:15:23 <andythenorth> you may still need boost
10:15:45 <V453000> oooh drama, I like drama
10:15:53 <andythenorth> doesn't mention boost
10:16:08 <andythenorth> V453000: this is non-witty drama though :P
10:16:11 <Alberth> may be a compile-time only dependency
10:16:17 <andythenorth> it's just going to be 'wall of text' drama
10:16:37 <gamebuster> tnx andy, it works
10:16:41 <andythenorth> just close the thread already as pointless
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10:16:49 <andythenorth> gamebuster: I'm going to delete it from the devzone then
10:16:57 <andythenorth> don't want old versions lying around ;)
10:17:26 <andythenorth> V453000: I totally disagree with you
10:18:33 <gamebuster> i love opensource stuff <3
10:22:43 <gamebuster> lol, an 11MB png file with ground sprites :D
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10:25:00 <peter1138> 32bpp 4x sprites are large, woo
10:25:34 <Rubidium> but 32bpp doesn't have such large PNGs
10:25:36 <gamebuster> i'm trying to create a tiny RTS game in HTML5, using 32bpp ground tiles to test :P
10:26:24 <gamebuster> i have ben robbins' ground tiles here; its one big ass png :P
10:27:58 <planetmaker> does the license allow usage or do you have permission?
10:28:36 <gamebuster> but its for personal usage only :P
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10:29:35 <gamebuster> once i got it working and i want to put it online, i will search for a "legal" one
10:30:04 <gamebuster> i assume the grf's all have a simular format
10:30:45 <planetmaker> depends on similar. But grfcodec will give you a single large png (or a few) in all cases by default
10:30:46 <Alberth> it's usually a lot simpler when you directly experiment with the sprites you can use in the release; at the least it reduces the effort to code the right offsets of all sprites. It also allows you to make screen shots of your experimental results
10:31:18 <planetmaker> and what Alberth says. It's double work :D
10:31:37 <gamebuster> the offsets are stored in the nfo, arent they?
10:31:57 <gamebuster> regular expressions to the rescue
10:32:19 <Alberth> what makes you think the new version is available with offsets?
10:32:58 <Alberth> so how does nfo solve the problem then?
10:32:58 <gamebuster> its just a personal testing project
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10:33:09 <gamebuster> it is not intended as anything to release
10:33:24 <gamebuster> just a sunday afternoon testing project :P
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11:26:37 <frosch123> gamebuster: maybe it's a result of the dutch/german domination in this channel :p if you mix those two i believe you end up with frisian stuff :p
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11:45:47 <gamebuster> i'm dutch, but i've never heard of it before :P
11:46:23 <gamebuster> and i've never heard it in germany either
11:48:54 <planetmaker> you've never been to the Northern parts of either then ;-)
11:49:41 <Eddi|zuHause> traditionally, "moin" (or "moin moin") is a greeting in a rather small area near Hamburg. it has somewhat spread since the introduction of television
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12:09:15 <gamebuster> northern, as in, groningen/friesland?
12:09:28 <fonsinchen> Why does that actually compile? What does it do? And how can I make it do what I want it to do?
12:09:32 <gamebuster> because I lived in Hoogeveen (drenthe)
12:10:07 <gamebuster> why shouldn't it compile?
12:10:40 <fonsinchen> The anonymous struct should not be allowed there because it's a declaration, not an instantiation.
12:11:15 <gamebuster> good point, i think
12:11:21 <gamebuster> too bad i hardly know any CPP :P
12:11:26 <Alberth> you can have anonymous structs in C/C++
12:11:39 <fonsinchen> At least it doesn't do what it should. One thing is that for weird reasons, "transfers" is not actually private there.
12:11:43 <Alberth> ie typedef struct { ... } foo; is quite normal in C
12:12:30 <gamebuster> but the "foo" is missing; it is anonymous and it isn't assigned to a variable/property/whatever it is called in C++ :P
12:13:00 <Alberth> the "foo" is part of the typedef, not of the struct
12:13:30 <gamebuster> o i get it, you can either assign a "station" or a cargo + transfers
12:13:37 <Alberth> fonsinchen: struct makes everything public by default, or am I missing something?
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12:14:31 <gamebuster> i wish my C/C++ skillz were better. Too bad i've no point in using C/C++ because i've no reason to use it
12:14:47 <Alberth> ie private: bool transfers ?
12:14:48 <frosch123> fonsinchen: i think that code is invalid according to 9.5.2 of c++98
12:14:57 <gamebuster> and it's a little too much to learn as a hobby :P
12:14:59 <Eddi|zuHause> is that just me or is the indentation on that page totally broken?
12:15:20 <gamebuster> i think its just you, or our definition of "totally broken" differ
12:16:01 <gamebuster> i think this is the nicest sourcecode i've ever seen in an opensource game :P
12:16:15 * fonsinchen checks the C++ standard
12:16:17 <gamebuster> i can actually somewhat understand what the **** is going on here :P
12:16:21 <Alberth> it misses a lot of @return :)
12:16:58 <gamebuster> it never returns anything :P
12:17:16 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Bildschirmfoto20.png
12:17:22 <gamebuster> or do you like "@return void" comments :P
12:17:27 <frosch123> hmm, actually... does the compiler interpret it as definition of a nested type, or as a member variable
12:18:41 <Eddi|zuHause> please tell me that it doesn't look like this for everyone else...
12:20:27 <frosch123> no, it does not look like that for me :p
12:20:38 <frosch123> it's properly indented here
12:20:57 <gamebuster> looks like a font is missing
12:21:15 <gamebuster> and its using a non-fixed-width font :P
12:21:20 <Eddi|zuHause> it looks correct in firefox
12:21:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and this is clearly a momospace font
12:21:46 <Eddi|zuHause> just the number of spaces is wrong
12:22:15 <gamebuster> hmm you're right :P
12:23:44 <fonsinchen> I should probably check what the compiler does there and write a bug report for the GCC folks ...
12:24:08 <fonsinchen> However, probably it's just some case of "undefined behaviour" I'm triggering there.
12:25:08 <Eddi|zuHause> who actually completely understands the C++ specs? :p
12:25:08 <fonsinchen> As it is now it somehow writes and reads from different places when you try to interact with "cargo".
12:25:47 <fonsinchen> So you can't retrieve certain entries once you've inserted them.
12:26:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i think konqueror does something wrong with replacing the tabs :/
12:27:13 <Eddi|zuHause> or it's some magic javascript involved
12:27:39 <Eddi|zuHause> which won't work if javascript is disabled
12:33:16 <fonsinchen> so I need to define a struct CargoAndTransfer somewhere and refer to it there. However, as that cannot be anonymous, I have to write some more glue code to get all the casts and assignments right. Looks ugly.
12:34:02 <fonsinchen> Or I just don't pack it so tightly and add an extra member "transfer" outside the union. Also ugly.
12:34:12 <Alberth> unions are somewhat ugly in OO
12:35:48 <fonsinchen> In this case it's justified. A CargoDataEntry can only refer to either a station or a cargo.
12:36:16 <fonsinchen> And the information if there are transfers is only interesting for cargo entries if cargodist is disabled.
12:36:52 <Alberth> in pure OO, you'd make two classes, but openttd is a hybride :)
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12:39:28 <fonsinchen> I should probably make 3 classes. RootDataEntry, CargoDataEntry, StationDataEntry. That will further bloat the code, though.
12:40:04 <Alberth> yeah, it's not the typical openttd solution
12:44:50 <fonsinchen> template<class Tchild> class CargoDataEntry { ... };
12:46:07 <Alberth> when in doubt build a meta-level :p
12:47:07 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: yes/no/filenotfound?
12:49:51 <andythenorth> annual profit is lame
12:49:56 <andythenorth> why not lifetime profit?
12:50:04 <andythenorth> annual profit is crappy for ships
12:51:13 <Eddi|zuHause> but "lifetime profit" may mean that it will take ages until you are notified of a problem with your network
12:51:48 <fonsinchen> template<class Tchild, class Tparent, class Tid> ... template<class Tsubject>CargoSorter ... I think I know why I didn't do that when I first wrote that code.
12:51:50 <andythenorth> I turn all those off anyway
12:52:27 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: have you ever looked at YAPF internals? :p
12:53:10 <Eddi|zuHause> it has like 7 nested layers of templates, or so
12:53:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i think KUDr was a madman :p
12:54:14 <fonsinchen> I'm also using templates in other places. But just to differentiate between to types of IDs; that seems silly
12:56:04 <Eddi|zuHause> either you use inheritance, or templates, or unions, or... something will always be ugly
13:08:43 *** Rock is now known as Guest5895
13:09:22 <Guest5895> hi, I have a quick question
13:09:38 <Guest5895> been hearing about this game from my collegues lately and wanted to give it a try
13:09:45 <Guest5895> what version would you suggest me getting?
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13:27:34 <gamebuster> time for breakfast
13:43:02 <peter1138> is that how screenshots are made on a mac?
13:43:08 <peter1138> with shadows around window borders...
13:44:04 <Alberth> gamebuster: and does the sprite license allow publishing such examples?
13:48:02 <andythenorth> bets on whether this simuscape thread ends well?
13:48:19 <andythenorth> I put £5 on someone having a huff before the day is out
13:48:43 <Eddi|zuHause> you posted there, that might as well be like a godwin event... :p
13:49:00 <andythenorth> should just lock the thread
13:49:05 <andythenorth> but maybe that's overkill
13:49:22 <andythenorth> or at least move it to off-topic with all the crap I don't read
13:50:11 * Rubidium wonders what the final solution to this conflict will be
13:50:42 <V453000> I will tell you that Rubi :) nothing at all
13:50:52 <peter1138> throw the baby's toys out of it
13:51:04 <peter1138> find a saucepan, jump into a fire
13:51:18 <andythenorth> I don't get the issue
13:51:25 <andythenorth> some people want to develop in private
13:51:30 <V453000> there isnt really any issue
13:51:34 <andythenorth> they haven't been coming by and making dramas in tt-forums recently
13:51:43 <andythenorth> so why are 'we' making dramas at them :
13:52:05 <V453000> because a random person touched the topic :D seriously no reason
13:52:26 <gamebuster> alberth: i don't know; maybe the author will sue me for publishing
13:52:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: honestly, i see a civilized discussion, not a "drama"... so what are you complaining about?
13:52:56 <andythenorth> maybe you're right
13:53:16 <V453000> tbh I sort of understand why does someone create a separate page where they develop stuff, I even partially understand all the registering and stuff rules, but what I absolutely fail to understand is why not bananas
13:53:41 <andythenorth> because they don't want to :)
13:53:44 <peter1138> cos bananas doesn't let them remove old versions
13:53:48 <peter1138> and they think they need to
13:53:53 <V453000> I know that, but that isnt why :)
13:54:07 <peter1138> never mind that because it's a manual update, people are more likely to be using old version
13:54:10 <Alberth> gamebuster: unfortunately, it is very easy to mess up these things, it pays to be ahead of them and first check before using something, imho
13:54:17 <andythenorth> I actually can't se anyone mentioning trolling
13:54:21 <andythenorth> so I am baffleds
13:54:28 <andythenorth> what is Dave on about?
13:55:19 <frosch123> well, i somewhat have the hope that dave leaves ttf and joins simuscape
13:55:41 <andythenorth> the only person who has mentioned trolling recently is that guy who was in a huff about something
13:55:56 <andythenorth> anyway, my harbour is broken :P
13:56:24 <V453000> I think nuts is stable for now :>
13:57:25 <planetmaker> <gamebuster> alberth: i don't know; maybe the author will sue me for publishing <-- that's a dangerous attitude. We've see what you ask for
13:58:53 <gamebuster> i like to play dangerous games
13:58:54 <Alberth> if you have a million or so euros to spare, it's no problem, but otherwise, it could cost you dearly
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14:00:19 <gamebuster> i thought creating a HTML5 mini RTS using some OpenTTD sprites was a waste of time, but looks like some people found higher levels of wasting time
14:03:23 <gamebuster> no, its breakfast time
14:03:40 <gamebuster> its 3PM and haven't eaten anything yet
14:06:00 <Pokka> it's exploding ostrich time
14:08:55 <andythenorth> Pokka: got a video of that?
14:09:27 <Alberth> it was lost in the blast
14:10:31 <andythenorth> I don't really want to convert these 32 spritelayouts to templated methods
14:10:35 <andythenorth> shall we play a bit more?
14:11:20 <andythenorth> scuddles is winning surely?
14:19:58 <andythenorth> recessions need to go
14:20:01 <andythenorth> along with inflation
14:20:21 <Pokka> these are no longer features, they are now bugs
14:22:59 <frosch123> we need a "boring andy" settings profile
14:23:29 <frosch123> disabling inflation, recession, station rating, town rating, cargo aging, breakdowns, ...
14:23:47 <frosch123> maybe also vehicle purchase?
14:25:45 <Pokka> most of those things are either influencable or at least vaguely sensible, frosch123
14:26:01 <Pokka> inflation and recession are just broken :)
14:26:45 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: date progressing
14:27:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure i could come up with another few :)
14:30:29 <andythenorth> normally recessions are 'gone' for me
14:30:44 <frosch123> hmm, i think it was belugas who posted the "toot toot" concept
14:31:43 <frosch123> ottd only needs a button in main gui to issue a train horn, and everyone would be happy
14:31:59 <andythenorth> I have an ipad game like that
14:32:38 <frosch123> yeah, i guess it fits the typical ipad user
14:33:28 <frosch123> not necessarily by the physical appearance
14:33:52 <frosch123> more the icon tichy type :)
14:39:55 <Eddi|zuHause> so, why does simcity4 actually crash every 5 minutes?
14:40:35 <frosch123> hmm, if you had said "simcity5" or "4 minutes" i might have had an idea
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14:54:26 <andythenorth> slow ships are slow
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14:56:25 <Markk> I am in the "Replace Train" dialogue, and I have the 2cc NGRW, but on two of three vehicles I currently have the flag (France in this case, if it matters) kind of blinks in the upper right corner.
14:56:50 <Markk> With a little pixely black dot.
14:57:36 <Markk> Any idea what it's about?
14:58:04 <Alberth> I have not, perhaps someone else has an idea
14:58:11 <peter1138> probably just a sprite that's too big
14:58:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Markk: possibly a wrong colour used in the sprite
14:59:02 <Markk> But I'm currently using three locomotives, and all of them are French for some reason, but there's only two flags that has this blinking dot.
14:59:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Markk: there are special "blinking colours" e.g. for lighthouses/airports or water
14:59:40 <Markk> Or were you referring to the locomotive itself?
14:59:44 <peter1138> maybe take a screenshot we don't have to guess
15:00:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Markk: sometimes they get into normal sprites by improper graphics editing/converting
15:01:24 <Eddi|zuHause> if that is the case, you should post in the 2cc thread
15:01:57 <planetmaker> Markk, the sprites shown in the purchase list are one sprite which contains engine + flag. Thus if there it's possible that there's a wrong pixel with some engines and some not
15:07:54 <Markk> You can see the black dot both in the list of vehicles that I have and in the list of possible vehicles.
15:09:17 <peter1138> sprites using the red-flashing colour meant for level-crossing
15:09:18 <planetmaker> I don't exactly. But you should report sprite problems to the related NewGRF. We can't do anything about it
15:10:07 <peter1138> does it in the purchase list
15:10:38 <Markk> peter1138: Yes, it does.
15:10:45 <peter1138> that wasn't a question
15:10:57 <Markk> But thanks for the answer!
15:10:59 <peter1138> weird how you call it a "dot" when it's obviously part of the shading
15:11:23 <Markk> I sit too far from the screen to see the difference.
15:11:43 <planetmaker> if it's the black triangel in the upper rigth... yes
15:12:23 <Markk> Didn't see that before.
15:14:18 <Markk> But guys, thank you all for the help!
15:14:42 <Markk> I just didn't want to wonder if it was some sort of message that I needed to do something.
15:17:44 <peter1138> you do, you need to report the bug ;)
15:27:10 <Alberth> reporting problems you experience to the author is the way to get a better set
15:33:48 <andythenorth> blah blah blah spritelayouts
15:39:55 <NGC3982> Markk: What NewGRF contains the SJX2000?
15:42:03 <NGC3982> Oh? I haven't seen that in there.
15:42:08 <NGC3982> Unless you changed the name :)
15:44:55 <Zuu__> Swedish Train set have X2000.
15:45:06 <Zuu__> Last time I checked it was the old blue livery.
15:45:10 <NGC3982> How on earth did i miss that.
15:47:13 <Zuu__> Though it would be quite boring if all trains would use the current grey livery :-s
15:58:41 <NGC3982> How can i load a scenario with my own NewGRFs?
16:01:10 <frosch123> a scenario is a scenario
16:01:17 <frosch123> it's not a custom game
16:01:46 <frosch123> you can load the scenario, save it as heightmap and then play that heightmap
16:01:57 <frosch123> as in only using the "height" information
16:02:01 <frosch123> but that's about it
16:03:05 <andythenorth> would be nice if that was...different
16:03:41 <NGC3982> Since, most scenarios i find does contain geographical features, but no NewGRFs related to that geographical feature.
16:04:00 <NGC3982> Swedish train NewGRF's for a Swedish scenario, for instance. :)
16:04:12 <NGC3982> But yes, i think i can fix that with your heightmap solution.
16:05:12 <frosch123> you will loose town names and locations and such though
16:05:38 <frosch123> but well, such things are just those things which depend on newgrf :)
16:05:44 <frosch123> like swedish town names
16:08:28 <andythenorth> I think I broke the concept of spriteset vs spritelayout
16:10:23 <andythenorth> I am encoding offsets etc in the spriteset
16:10:27 <andythenorth> for implementation reasons :P
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16:21:05 <peter1138> i'm recoding rgb recolours!
16:21:14 <peter1138> cos it's always better the second time around, right?
16:21:28 <frosch123> isn't it the third time?
16:21:54 <peter1138> or should it wait til the third?
16:22:13 <frosch123> well, usually the important part is whether you call it "yet another ..."
16:23:02 <frosch123> but i meant you were already doing it the third time
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16:30:07 <fonsinchen> How do we continue with the cargodist trunk inclusion process? I've basically reimplemented the whole reservation thing, following Rubidium's criticism. I don't know if that was really necessary but it looks cleaner now and in the improved/full load case it doesn't deviate from the original intention anymore.
16:30:48 <frosch123> i wanted to look at it, but i am not quite in an ottd mood recently
16:31:09 <peter1138> nah, this is second i'm sure
16:31:30 <andythenorth> what implementation of FIRS am I on?
16:42:05 <Zuu__> fonsinchen: FYI, I just reivewed the OTTDAU <-> openttdcoop situation, and will make an attempt to support cargodist again by hardcoding the extra "/releases" string that is injected into the download URLs. That will however, probably not give or take anything with respect of getting it reviewed.
16:43:08 <fonsinchen> Well, there's always stuff you can still change. With such a big chunk of code there'll never be perfection. At some point I suggest you should just say "it's good enough". It's very easy to fix small things like capitalization of comments if there is a stable base version in trunk. However, dragging around a long queue of interdependent patches and fixing a comma here and a bit of whitespace there is kind of annoying. Still I hav
16:43:08 <fonsinchen> e fixed all the coding style stuff Rubidium has pointed out.
16:43:53 <fonsinchen> Having a stable baseline version that doesn't need constant adjustment to trunk changes would also free some of my time for other improvements.
16:44:55 <fonsinchen> Right now I don't want to work on those entries in my issue tracker because that would increase the amount of code to be maintained even more.
16:45:32 <fonsinchen> I wouldn't want to do that on the "stable" version, but instead I'd create an experimental new branch for that.
16:46:19 <frosch123> well, i only have the loading order thingie on my list
16:46:40 <fonsinchen> What is the loading order thingie about?
16:46:58 <frosch123> the thing we discussed most :)
16:47:10 <frosch123> you might call it reservation
16:47:31 <fonsinchen> Ah, OK. If you have any questions don't hesitate to ask me.
16:49:08 <Zuu__> fonsinchen: Is there on github anything like viewing your patch queue?
16:49:32 <Zuu__> Eg. a list of patches/change sets in a sequential order.
16:49:50 <fonsinchen> Yes, that's the commits in the CD branch ...
16:50:57 <Zuu__> So the oldest one is the first patch/change to apply to trunk?
16:51:14 <fonsinchen> "old" is relative, though
16:51:36 <Zuu__> I mean by the date displayed at github
16:51:51 <fonsinchen> Date displayed at github is meaningless
16:52:15 <fonsinchen> The list is in reverse order of "to be applied to trunk".
16:52:51 <fonsinchen> (except for "saveload version naming" and "switch on by default" which is probably not to be applied)
16:55:18 <Zuu__> So the item at the back is the first one to be reviewed? I keep clicking on "older" but it appears to have also SVN changesets mixed with your changes. Maybe you have already explained this or this is a concept of Git that differs from HG Queues, but I was hoping to get a clean list of patch 1, patch 2, patch 3 etc.
16:56:21 <frosch123> Zuu__: the cdist stuff is just at the top
16:56:34 <frosch123> it's just like what hg queues would give you
16:56:50 <frosch123> the "real hg stuff" in the past, and the queue at the top
16:57:20 <frosch123> you can tell where the "queue" starts by looking at the transition from "(svn rxxx)" commits to those without
17:14:46 <andythenorth> anyone want to make a save?
17:16:22 <NGC3982> Ah, it even linked to The Oatmeal
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17:32:35 <peter1138> and... there was no news, just the background music at full volume all the way through :p
17:33:32 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
17:33:40 <Eddi|zuHause> "it's sunday, nothing newsworthy happened"
17:33:51 <Prof_Frink> peter1138: Apocalyptic rave?
17:34:58 * NGC3982 is completely out of context.
18:11:22 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24944 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2013-01-27 18:11:16 UTC)
18:11:23 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5452]: Deleting implicit orders wasn't able to deal with the various side-effects of DeleteOrder.
18:33:49 <NGC3982> Regarding this picture; How does path finding work for trucks? For some reason, the trucks in the picture does not take a different route to the station, if the first one is "stopped".
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18:33:56 <NGC3982> I guess that's how it should work? :-)
18:35:28 <frosch123> the number of vehicles loading in a stop add to the path penalty
18:35:39 <frosch123> if the truck is waiting at the back, then you have bad luck
18:45:40 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24945 /trunk/src/lang (5 files in 2 dirs) (2013-01-27 18:45:29 UTC)
18:45:41 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:42 <DorpsGek> hungarian - 3 changes by oklmernok
18:45:43 <DorpsGek> japanese - 42 changes by Aknuth
18:45:44 <DorpsGek> polish - 5 changes by wojteks86
18:45:45 <DorpsGek> slovenian - 1 changes by Necrolyte
18:45:46 <DorpsGek> tamil - 108 changes by aswn
18:59:30 <peter1138> orange and green should never be seen
18:59:37 <peter1138> except in my colour scheme :P
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19:17:20 <peter1138> hmm, doxygen missing in places
19:18:28 <Zuu> NGC3982: If the entry is changed so that the shortest path guide the trucks to the centre loading bay, trucks will spread better.
19:18:44 <NGC3982> Zuu: Yes, i noticed. I just changed it.
19:18:50 <NGC3982> It was a bit of a trial-and-error procedure.
19:28:29 <andythenorth> has anyone released FIRS 0.9 yet?
19:28:35 <andythenorth> or will I have to do it :P
19:28:55 <Alberth> II have not seen anyone today
19:29:27 <Alberth> unless he is undercover by a different name of course :p
19:31:04 <andythenorth> maybe not in all timezones
19:32:06 <peter1138> service_interval is, imho, erroneously typed as Date
19:32:20 <peter1138> cos it contains either a %age or an interval in days
19:32:25 <peter1138> which isn't the same as a Date
19:33:17 <peter1138> if i change its type i can stuff a couple of bits high up
19:33:51 <peter1138> the value is already limited to 5-800 so 32 bits is massive :p
19:34:05 <peter1138> the original 16 bits was still more than needed, heh
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19:56:43 <andythenorth> maybe I should implement stockpiling? o_O
19:58:06 <Alberth> I thought you decided stockpiling is a broken concept :p
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19:58:55 <andythenorth> I don't mean limits
19:59:02 <andythenorth> just gradual processing of delivered cargo
19:59:51 <Alberth> the ramp up of ECS looks quite nice imho
20:00:45 <andythenorth> hrm, timetabling
20:00:54 <andythenorth> and autorefit, both together
20:00:57 <andythenorth> never done that before
20:01:45 * andythenorth could use some timetable magic
20:01:53 <andythenorth> space out vehicles evenly
20:02:02 <Supercheese> There's a patch for that™
20:16:08 <andythenorth> peter1138: we are winning
20:16:22 <peter1138> forgot i left it on :S
20:18:20 <peter1138> $ bin/openttd -b 32bpp-anim
20:18:20 <peter1138> dbg: [misc] String too long for destination buffer
20:19:31 <peter1138> i guess it's cos i'm in a git branch
20:26:01 <andythenorth> this FIRS Basic stuff is too easy :P
20:26:09 <andythenorth> loads of easily connected industry chains
20:26:16 <andythenorth> no brainfuck stuff :P
20:27:05 <Pyr0> i've been having issues make gbm to actually debugg mi code
20:27:40 <Pyr0> I fear that the make script is not taking my "-g" flag, (i'm using eclipse)
20:28:08 <Pyr0> when a launch debug I get the game running but I cannot see the source code
20:28:29 <Pyr0> any ideas what I'm doing wrong?
20:29:56 <glx> you need to run "configure" with the right options
20:30:35 <Pyr0> i'm not running "./configure"
20:30:58 <andythenorth> funny thing about this port
20:31:03 <andythenorth> looks just like a fishing harbour :P
20:31:07 <glx> it's needed to generate the Makefile
20:31:32 <Supercheese> andythenorth: use seagulls to distinguish between them :P
20:31:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: make change a fishing harbour to look more distrinct
20:31:58 <frosch123> e.g. by covering it completely in a big pile of fish or so
20:32:06 <Pyr0> do you know how can I run it from eclipse instead of console?
20:32:30 <andythenorth> frosch123: good idea :)
20:32:58 <frosch123> hmm, i wonder what i typed there
20:33:33 <Pyr0> and which are the the right options for make it debuggeable
20:34:01 <glx> " --enable-debug[=LVL] enable debug-mode (LVL=[0123], 0 is release)"
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20:34:29 <frosch123> Pyr0: you are probably better off running the configure script and only making eclipse execute the generated makefile
20:34:41 <frosch123> don't try to make eclipse do any magic to the makefile
20:34:54 <Pyr0> yeah that what I was afraid
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20:50:54 <Pyr0> ok I was able to compile with debug but when it launches I get not available languages error
20:51:53 <Pyr0> neither the "release" exe
20:52:00 <frosch123> peter1138: do you really want to do this kind of bitstuffing?
20:52:14 <frosch123> do you feel sentimental about ttdp? :p
20:52:30 <Pyr0> does the enable-debug change the location of needed files or something like that?
20:52:38 <peter1138> frosch123, not fussed, it's abstracted anyway
20:52:57 <peter1138> frosch123, but service_interval being a date annoyed me
20:53:13 <peter1138> i don't think adding 2 bools is a good idea
20:53:55 <frosch123> no, but a separate service_flags variable
20:54:02 <frosch123> there is no reason to put in one
20:54:15 <frosch123> you could just do two uint16 if you mind the space :p
20:55:03 <peter1138> SLE_FILE_I32 | SLE_VAR_U16?
20:55:22 <frosch123> yeah, or just keep it uint32 and add a separate flags thignie
20:56:07 <Zuu> peter1138: Maybe some english.txt strings need to be updated to reflect the changed behaviour?
20:57:20 <Alberth> Pyr0: it deposits objects files in objs/debug instead of objs/release or so
20:58:07 <Pyr0> but i don't know why it isn't finding the lang files
20:58:40 <Alberth> bin has the final binary, I think
20:58:43 <Supercheese> new OTTD compiles should generate .lng files
20:59:54 <frosch123> ctrl to toggle % and days :o
20:59:56 <Pyr0> should I move the exe to bin instead of running it from objs/debug?
21:02:55 <peter1138> can be separate button
21:06:36 <Pyr0> ok seems to be that all the files are missing from objs/debug
21:07:38 <Alberth> bin/* environment contains lots of stuff that the binary needs
21:07:50 <frosch123> hmm, i guess turning the "%"/"days" text into a button would look weird and break the plural
21:07:56 <Pyr0> if I move it to bin everything is fine
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21:08:33 <peter1138> frosch123, it's always plural
21:08:34 <frosch123> i am not sure how much space there is in the vehicle details
21:08:41 <Pyr0> all the exes are in "debug mode"
21:08:45 <frosch123> everything could be moved into a dropdown maybe
21:09:15 <frosch123> peter1138: why? service interval "1 day" might be unusual, but other languages also have special forms for 101 and such
21:09:32 <peter1138> frosch123, it's not possible
21:09:56 <Pyr0> ok back to my original problem :)
21:10:04 <peter1138> (i've no idea why it's in order_func.h
21:10:13 <Pyr0> i have now the game running and the debug console
21:10:16 <peter1138> range for % is 5 to 90
21:10:20 <peter1138> range for days is 30 to 800
21:10:24 <Pyr0> but eclipse can't find source files :(
21:10:40 <peter1138> and it goes up in 5s or 10s or something
21:10:44 <Pyr0> i get the "../mingw/main.c" error instead of the source code where i'm stoped :(
21:10:47 <peter1138> but maybe you're right
21:10:58 <peter1138> there's probably some language with a weird plural for 0s
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21:12:02 <Rubidium> peter1138: Korean has very weird "plurals"; the last digit determines the plural
21:16:21 <Supercheese> (works on Firefox anyhow)
21:18:07 <Kimmey> how do i make an Server? :(
21:18:27 <NGC3982> Kimmey: That depends on your current hardware, and software.
21:19:21 <Kimmey> I opened Openttd.exe -D
21:20:17 <NGC3982> And you did not exceed?
21:20:43 <Kimmey> i dont know the port and the ip -.-
21:20:44 <NGC3982> They said "Exceed" in the Nostalgica Critic episode i'm watching.
21:21:22 <DorpsGek> NGC3982: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
21:21:48 <NGC3982> Kimmey: As you can see, OpenTTD uses TCP/UDP port 3979 for server connections. Opening that in your router should do the trick.
21:22:05 <NGC3982> As for your IP, there are serveral online services that can give you your own external IP address.
21:23:47 <peter1138> right, so, fix the ctrl hidden function
21:24:01 <peter1138> and... split the flags
21:24:11 <NGC3982> Kimmey: Yes, if your port is open, you should be able to connect.
21:25:27 <andythenorth> FIRS compiles slow :( :( :(
21:25:30 <NGC3982> Kimmey: You can always PM me the IP (and password, if configured), if you need someone to test it.
21:27:45 <Kimmey> how do i use the Port :S
21:28:51 <NGC3982> Kimmey: When connecting?
21:29:26 <frosch123> peter1138: and doxygen :p
21:29:43 <NGC3982> Kimmey: When adding a server in the OpenTTD multiplayer window, you can write the address "ip-adress/host:port", or in example: "123.456.789:3979"
21:30:00 <NGC3982> Kimmey: Where 123.456.789 is the IP, and 3979 the port.
21:32:07 <Supercheese> Whoops, there he goes
21:33:11 <andythenorth> are not existing
21:33:23 <NGC3982> Did he leave or something? I have ignore on part/join.
21:34:21 <NGC3982> Kimmey: Yes, i tried to answer you.
21:34:50 <NGC3982> ja, det r jag. vill du diskutera p ngot annat sprk n engelska fr vi ta det i PM.
21:35:31 <NGC3982> I just sent you a private message.
21:35:53 <NGC3982> In your Ajax IRC client, you should have a new box with my name on it.
21:41:03 <andythenorth> industry probabilities seem to be screwy
21:42:38 <andythenorth> found the cause :P
21:43:13 <Supercheese> 90 seconds ... to what?
21:55:45 <NGC3982> By experiment, i guess it's time to advertise to the master server.
21:56:03 * NGC3982 goes public with his OpenTrainuality.
21:57:13 <Supercheese> Hmm good question on the forum about rivers: "Is there a patch or grf that can alter the width of the rivers generated on maps? If it would start to widen the rivers as they got to the towards the edge of a map that would be great..."
21:57:48 <andythenorth> been asked a bzillion times :P
22:00:27 <andythenorth> diagonal canals / rivers
22:00:30 <andythenorth> I could draw them :P
22:00:31 <Supercheese> Would require new code in FlowRiver in landscape.cpp, if I'm not mistaken
22:00:52 <Supercheese> Fake them with newobjects :P
22:01:17 <Supercheese> diagonal tiles to place around the ugly "zig-zag" non-diagonal water tiles
22:01:33 <andythenorth> just do it for real :P
22:02:02 <Supercheese> Well, my offer stands
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22:19:53 <NGC3982> Can i use ,.-'??+ chars in server_name, when altering config?
22:22:16 <NGC3982> And, can someone please tell me where Kimmey went.
22:22:29 <Supercheese> He just left & rejoined
22:22:41 <NGC3982> Kimmey: Let's contiue.
22:35:19 <peter1138> right, dropdown coded
22:35:29 <peter1138> now... separate var ... :S
22:45:09 <Kimmey> This is an amazing game ! :D
22:47:01 <FLHerne> Kimmey: Of course it is. Tried excessive NewGRFs yet? :P
22:52:00 <peter1138> all those slots wasted with separators
22:52:01 <confound> Supercheese: that is too many
22:52:29 <Supercheese> Slots wasted? I increased the limit :P
22:52:35 <FLHerne> Supercheese: Mine was like that, until I realised how few I actually used normally :P
22:52:43 <FLHerne> Supercheese: MP sync?
22:52:45 <Supercheese> and that's an old list, I've changed/added/removed some
22:52:51 <Supercheese> I don't multiplayer
22:53:37 <Supercheese> Besides, it'd be terrible to try and read the list without the separators
22:54:32 <Supercheese> Hmm, I guess there's one or two in there I don't use...
22:55:46 <Supercheese> I don't actually fly hot air balloons normally, and I don't much use some of the smaller object sets
22:56:30 <NGC3982> FLHerne: Don't teach him anything new i later have to support.
22:57:09 <Supercheese> but I do use most of them, if my game lasts long enough anyway (if I stop early some of the future grfs don't get used)
22:59:22 <NGC3982> Kimmey: I notice that you are running a 2048*2048 map on your server. Without proper configuration, your players will have som difficulty playing without connection issues.
22:59:36 <NGC3982> Kimmey: I suggest using a smaller map until you get your configuration issues solved. ;)
23:01:51 <NGC3982> A 1024*512 should be a decent big map to start of with.
23:08:10 <Kimmey> any other settings i have to change?
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continue to next day ⏵
