IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-12-28
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00:00:52 *** LordPixaII has joined #openttd
00:08:30 <drac_boy> ahhh that particular steam locomotive again!
00:09:39 <Supercheese> Any GIMP scripts to batch-convert images to the TTD palette?
00:10:14 <drac_boy> mm eddi I had known about the DRG 61 .. just didn't realized its train consist was also a bit unique too
00:10:21 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, a high-speed engine with builtin tender, built in a series of two, but rudely stopped by wartime operational cutbacks in express service
00:11:20 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: it was basically the steam-engine's answer to the "flying trains" (high-speed diesel trainsets)
00:12:18 <Eddi|zuHause> on many lines, speed records of this time are still not broken to this day (operating speed, not top speed)
00:13:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the times of the Henschel-Wegmann-Zug between Berlin and Dresden are one of them
00:13:26 <Kjetil> one of the cross country railways are now slower than in the steam/early diesel days
00:14:21 <drac_boy> kjetil heh usa history book has a lot of these .. especially the fast limited-stop train from calfornia to new york ... now the best amtrak can do is not even anywhere half close to it one bit at all
00:14:25 <Eddi|zuHause> a lot of that is due to the special historic development of berlin, though
00:16:04 <Eddi|zuHause> the historic route from dresden to "Berlin, Anhalter Bahnhof" was blocked by "the wall", and some parts of this track are not reactivated (yet) for long-distance usage (the S-Bahn section was reactivated)
00:16:18 <Eddi|zuHause> which means the trains now take a larger detour
00:16:32 <Eddi|zuHause> also, they have an additional stop now
00:17:43 <drac_boy> kjetil yeah and even canada had a few things to note too such as 100+mph services along the corridor but now the F40PH and Genesis barely even get close to that (and the jettrain that was promised twice still doesn't exist except as stored blueprints at bombardier's offices last I heard)
00:17:47 <Eddi|zuHause> and the "Anhalter Bahnhof" was closed, now they have a new central station ("Hauptbahnhof"), but the difference of that is probably marginal
00:19:15 <Kjetil> drac_boy: heh. The ministry for transportation announced today that nationwide highspeed trains were postponed, and they will work on improving the service around the capital
00:20:14 <drac_boy> Kjetil is norway where they're also laying the all-new route further closer to the sea to improve service connections? something about it having been set further back inland due to war bombing concerns a long time ago
00:20:24 <drac_boy> or am I thinking of another nearby country now
00:20:47 <Kjetil> I miss the days when they would commit to building a railroad which cost several times the national budget
00:21:30 <drac_boy> Kjetil you want to know what used to cost a lot back then that it went through at least 2 bankruptions in its life? :)
00:22:44 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: if you talk at scales like california-new york, it doesn't make sense to offer a "fast train service", because even the fastest they could do would be trumped by an order of magnitude with planes
00:23:20 <Kjetil> they haven't built railroad here since the ehm.. nazist left. (minor exaggeration, but now far from the truth :P)
00:23:53 <drac_boy> well they had it carded for like somewhere within 35 hours or so. which was enough for to leave late night and wake up to watch the mid-usa mountain scenes then sleep again and wake up stopped at the final station
00:24:13 <drac_boy> later trains were stretched out longer... 50+ hours in some cases .. not very good idea for business :-s
00:24:22 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: or you can fly in 5 hours
00:24:40 <drac_boy> try find some real food or even any sleeping time tho :)
00:24:48 <Eddi|zuHause> for 1/5th of the price
00:25:56 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: i mean it doesn't make sense to try to offer such a service again.
00:26:09 <Kjetil> +free groping by the TSA
00:26:10 <Eddi|zuHause> the investments would far outreach the possible gains
00:26:27 <drac_boy> eddi thats like meaning noone wants to go crosscountry without having to take their car on the road?
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00:27:21 <drac_boy> even the one amtrak autotrain does a lot of business that they often have to turn down people at times but the gov doesn't want to provide the fund to order another complete set (its made up partially of several full-length double deck auto carrier cars from ttx just as well)
00:27:59 <drac_boy> Kjetil heh I have heard of some issues with TSA and the railroads before
00:28:11 <drac_boy> even amtrak sometimes have a bit of relationship problem with them too
00:28:19 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: "full train" still doesn't mean it's economically balanced
00:28:47 <Eddi|zuHause> just google for "Breisgau S-Bahn" if you want to have a laugh :)
00:30:10 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a short-distance line that was on the brink of closing, they ordered a few railcars (RS1) and within a few years the number of passengers quadrupled
00:30:28 <drac_boy> Kjetil I don't even want to talk about that silly thing about uk refusing to be part of the europe zone and you wonder why the choices of destinations on eurostar is crappy :)
00:30:40 <Eddi|zuHause> now they're operating with 6 railcars coupled together, and can't turn a profit
00:30:54 <Supercheese> Nvm about GIMP script, found it
00:31:14 <drac_boy> supercheese trying to convert handmade sprites into grf-compactible ones?
00:31:28 <Supercheese> Well, I had GIMP spit out a bunch of .pngs
00:31:44 <Supercheese> but they weren't properly palletized
00:32:00 <Supercheese> so I wanted to batch convert them to the DOS palette, and I found a script to do so
00:32:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: beware of magic flickering pixels
00:32:44 <Supercheese> Yes, fortunately my sprites are nowhere near the action colors
00:32:54 <Supercheese> also, I could simply have used a no-action-color palette to avoid that ;)
00:33:25 <drac_boy> hmm ok thinking about it I'll not bother with articulated anything .. except for the one early express diesel railcar consist I've somewhat partially drawn yet
00:33:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: just saying...
00:33:41 <Supercheese> Yes, sound advice :)
00:33:49 <Supercheese> (or, well, graphics advice :P )
00:34:10 <Flygon> Eddi: Sounds just like the VLocity train here
00:34:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: several people fell in this trap before :)
00:34:40 <Flygon> VR / V/Line's had been consistantly falling from 1950 to 2004 here
00:34:42 <drac_boy> hi flygon-from-the-country-of-crappy-failing-trains
00:34:47 <drac_boy> how're you anyway? heh
00:35:02 <Supercheese> Upside-down as usual, I presume :P
00:35:25 <Flygon> Then they introduced the VLocity train... and patronage EXPLODED because everyone thought they were bullet trains (and they did, indeed, bring improved timetables, and they also helped upgrade some lines)
00:35:59 <Flygon> Because of this, they're now a huge budget liability because they weren't intended to be the primary train in Victoria (partially due to maintainence costs)
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00:40:03 <drac_boy> do you always have to use cargo class for rail wagons? just asking
00:40:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: the RS1 railcar doesn't quite match the description of a bullet train :)
00:40:38 <Flygon> Eddi: Neither does the VLocity train. But the Govt hyped the inaccurate shit out of it.
00:41:01 <Flygon> 160km/h on Victorian tracks, theoretically could go 200km/h if given good conditions
00:41:15 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: you don't have to use cargo classes. you can make wagons for each cargo individually
00:41:27 <drac_boy> yeah thats what I had thought, thanks
00:41:41 <drac_boy> wanted some wagons to be specific regardingly of industries used
00:41:50 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: but that will make it difficult if an industry set introduces a new cargo
00:42:24 <drac_boy> mm not too worried about that one for now...just getting it work first then figure out future bugs next :)
00:43:01 <Flygon> I'd bet money the RS1 matches 160km/h :p
00:43:15 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: you should have a wagon for each cargo class (or more than one), then you can have special wagons for individual cargos
00:43:38 <Flygon> Oh, 120km/h... geeze. This thing's beaten by a Sprinter @_@
00:43:56 <drac_boy> Sprinter < Super Sprinter
00:44:36 <Flygon> drac_boy: V/Line probably ripped the name from Super Sprinter :p
00:47:18 <drac_boy> can I ask you something re grf industries flygon?
00:47:32 <Flygon> Sure, but I'd probably be unhelpful x3
00:48:38 <drac_boy> what do you think of towns having a warehouse (ecs have something rather similar after all) that accepts things like steel etc?
00:49:38 <Flygon> That's actually a pretty sensical idea
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00:52:18 <Flygon> Eddi: I find it intolerably unbelievable that Germany is capable of making slower DMU's than Australia @_@
00:52:36 <Flygon> What the hell, Germany?
00:52:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: it's meant for small branch lines
00:53:03 <Flygon> It wouldn't have been ever through routed on a mainline?
00:53:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: often these lines have speed limits of 80 or 60 km/h anyway, sometimes even lower
00:53:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: even on a mainline it would be faster than most freight trains
00:54:02 <Flygon> Here, you'll get trains through routed quite often, and most pass. lines are at least of 100km/h stanard (only reason it'd be lower is because of level crossings)
00:54:16 <Flygon> Germany and Australia are very very different countries
00:54:24 <Flygon> Mainline freight would go over 100km/h here
00:54:35 <Flygon> Most locomotives are designed for at least 115km/h here
00:55:28 <Flygon> Perhaps the two country/state's rail systems just work differently?
00:55:34 <Eddi|zuHause> freight trains are usually 100km/h nowadays, some aiming for 120km/h
00:55:53 <drac_boy> flygon what about clay mine >> kilns >> sell to town as GOOD cargos?
00:56:07 <drac_boy> I'm still doubting that idea...especially because its a low production industry in first place
00:56:07 <Flygon> (non-passenger lines here do tend to be limited to 40 to 80 km/h here, though)
00:56:18 <Eddi|zuHause> mainline passenger service is aiming towards 160km/h
00:56:35 <Flygon> drac_boy: Change clay to very very wet mud coal and you have a Victoria scenarioo :p
00:56:46 <Eddi|zuHause> express trains 249km/h, with a few exceptions at 300km/h
00:56:51 <Flygon> srs though, not a bad idea
00:57:10 <Flygon> Eddi: The ICE is the envy of the world, let me reassure you x3
00:57:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: over here everybody is complaining how the ICE is inferior to the TGV
00:57:55 <Flygon> Is that just because it's always 5 minute late?
00:58:08 <Flygon> Germans gonn hate V/Line's VLocity services then
00:58:39 <Flygon> (V/Line tends to be held up by Metro's EMUs, they share tracks)
00:58:54 <Eddi|zuHause> because it's always late, because it stops in every small province town, because the new trains don't get approved, because airconditioning breaks in summer, because ...
00:59:37 <Flygon> That last one is unacceptable
00:59:51 <Flygon> Your summers aren't very hot at all! :p
01:00:12 <Flygon> Well, even more reason for them to hate V/Line
01:00:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: the airconditioning was aimed at temperatures of 40°C, the last two summers were 42°C
01:00:47 <Eddi|zuHause> or something like that
01:01:10 <Flygon> VLocity trains have to stop at small towns often here, too. Mainly for political reasons. I could argue that trains get approved too often, though, instead of a 160-225km/h Diesel locomotive design being approved (ICE-D plzkthx :p)
01:01:16 <Eddi|zuHause> after a few people collapsed for heat-exhaustion, they started to close down wagons with broken airconditioning
01:01:20 <Flygon> (VLocity is a mantainence nightmare)
01:01:29 <Flygon> 42c... is actually pretty rough
01:01:34 <Eddi|zuHause> which means more upset people because their seat reservations fail
01:01:44 <Flygon> You won't get heat exhaustion here so much as very very uncomfortable people, though
01:01:45 <drac_boy> flygon the problem is that I'm already using clay for something else ... so I was just wondering :)
01:02:08 <Flygon> I suspect that if you've lived through 40c+ days consistantly, you get used to it
01:02:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and the rest of the train is overfull
01:02:30 <Flygon> I've never seen a VLocity carriage's aircon actually fail, though... perhaps they have better aircons?
01:02:41 <Flygon> drac_boy: Clay can have multiple uses
01:02:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: if it's 40°C on the outside, it'll be much warmer inside a train where you can't open a window
01:02:51 <drac_boy> flygon .. I already have it suggested for bricks
01:03:01 <drac_boy> so I'm just wondering about pottery-related goods too or not
01:03:14 <Flygon> Eddi: Your windows aren't even strongly tinted?
01:03:27 <Flygon> drac_boy: Can't primary industries have multiple secondary industries?
01:04:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: the trains are white, the windows are tinted. it's still getting warm in a wagon with 100 people inside and the sun shining on it
01:04:28 <Flygon> Perhaps the aircons in Germany are just weaker?
01:04:50 <drac_boy> flygon I'll prefer to keep the cargo list small .. so if clay can get reused somewhere else too thats good :)
01:04:56 <Eddi|zuHause> they promised the new airconditioning systems will tolerate 45°C :)
01:05:26 <Flygon> Eddi: Only 45c? That's unacceptable
01:05:40 <Flygon> Tolerate 55-60c and then you're getting somewhere
01:06:07 <Flygon> I'm pretty sure that the VLine trains here are designed for that, due to the long distances they take... basically, it's a necessity
01:06:22 <Flygon> Metro EMUs and Yarra Trams aren't so lucky... aircon failure is rampant
01:06:47 <Flygon> Partially due to the age of the rollingstock, and in the case of the trams, it's very difficult to fit high power aircons onto them
01:07:27 <Flygon> Trams didn't used to have aircons, but they used to have every single window openable (the airflow really helped cool things down before the 90s)... but OH&S bans that now :(
01:08:09 <Flygon> One of the stupidest cases I've seen though, is Comeng carriages simultainiously having an aircon set to max on one end of the carriage, and heater set to max on the other
01:08:23 <Flygon> If I didn't know any better, I'd say they're trying to make a cyclone
01:08:51 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe they needed the air circulation inside :)
01:09:20 <Flygon> As a sidenote to before
01:09:36 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have space problems, you could exchange all heaters for airconditionings and back every half year :)
01:10:37 <Flygon> The Victorian Government would never be willing to cough up the cost, and there's a lack of both depot capacity and workers
01:10:51 <Flygon> Using tram stops as depots isn't unusual
01:19:42 <Eddi|zuHause> "one of the next signals may be red" doesn't sound like good semantics ;)
01:20:53 <Eddi|zuHause> in germany, there are "main signals" and "advance signals", where the "advance signal" indicates what the next main signal says, at stopping distance
01:21:24 <Eddi|zuHause> between ~700 to ~1300m ahead, depending on speed limit
01:21:47 <drac_boy> heh this reminds me of a particular special classic trains issue centered around fast trains that I didn't keep anymore....
01:22:47 <Eddi|zuHause> max speed with signals is 160km/h
01:22:58 <Eddi|zuHause> above that you need in-cab-signalling
01:23:05 <drac_boy> one of the thing was that IC's mainline had been rated for 100mph trains which happened often especially the bananas special ... but when the signals were replaced it was only good for 79mph max (per ICC) because the original signal aspects had also told what the next block's indicator was
01:23:53 <drac_boy> and of course PRR had their very early in-cab signal repeaters which was obvious in the GG1's interiors
01:27:41 <drac_boy> the funny thing is one of the few accidents that caused ICC to tell the roads to either reduce to 79mph or install ATC (or was that ATS? I forgot which lettering) was of a diesel streamline that missed an orange signal and reacted too late to red signal .. right into the rear of another passenger train
01:28:19 <drac_boy> when they tested another train at the same place later on the automatic brakes stopped the train well short of the red signal which only gave ICC more evidence for their new rulings
01:29:03 <drac_boy> for anyone outside usa...it was Automatic Train Control and Automatic Train Stop
01:29:27 <drac_boy> even steam locomotives had a limited version that could set the air brake on if not properly reduced at an orange signal
01:31:30 * drac_boy hopes I didn't bore flygon
01:32:22 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, germany has PZB (point-based train influence) and LZB (line-based train influence)
01:33:11 <Eddi|zuHause> PZB is a magnet before each signal that engages the brakes if passed at too high speed
01:33:38 <drac_boy> mm magnets were tried for a while over here too
01:34:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and LZB can communicate with the train and issue top speeds and multi-block signal states
01:34:14 <drac_boy> whats interesting tho is that the classic berlin s-bahn brake cock "ramps" are almost same as to what several railroads actually tried for some time in usa
01:34:31 * drac_boy forgots what german actually called these so sorry about that name ^
01:34:41 <Flygon> Sorry, was handling some stuff
01:35:31 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: the berlin S-Bahn will have to replace those in the near future
01:35:57 <Flygon> Victoria lacked any real sort of Automatic Train Control until... at least the 1980s
01:36:15 <Flygon> And I can only recall it becoming widespread around 2004, due to the RFR projec
01:36:20 <Eddi|zuHause> because it doesn't fulfill all new regulations about train influencing
01:36:47 <Flygon> This is probably where the US and Aussie safety standards actually differ. USA had ATC requirements. Australia didn't.
01:37:02 <drac_boy> yeah eddi the 'ramps' in usa eventually got completely discarded because they only either let train by or fully stopped it .. a bit too primative
01:37:31 <drac_boy> better systems could set service brakes as a warning for orange signals etc
01:37:36 <Flygon> eg. V/Line actually tried to use 180km/h locomotives in the 1980s using bog standard signalling (back then, a mix of semaphore and LED)
01:38:02 <Flygon> The experiment failed when they couldn't find any railway lines of acceptable standard :P
01:38:20 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: PZB also does that, but it has different modes for approaching a read signal, or standing infront of a red signal and starting up
01:38:21 <Flygon> And 180km/h was the record they set... 130km/h was the nominal speed
01:38:39 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: there is no "warning shot"
01:38:41 <Flygon> (they aimed for 160km/h, I presume to compete with the XPT)
01:38:55 <drac_boy> flygon mind you you should maybe check the Bullet signalling .. its a mix of trackside visual (low speed in stations anyway) and in-cab electronic repeater
01:40:39 <drac_boy> eddi mm I've found that certain systems allows overriding red signals at very restrictive speeds. probably helps when its due to signal problem and the next signal is green anyway
01:41:03 <drac_boy> that does remind me of wondering why certain modern train signalling seem to fail at low speeds
01:41:49 <drac_boy> like there was that one time a NS train sideswiped another train because it was at below 40kph when trying to rejoin the mainline which rendered the automatic controls inoperative
01:42:24 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: ETCS has "balises" every few meters, so if you have very low speed, you run into a timeout before you reach the next "balise"
01:43:06 <Flygon> drac_boy: I'm quite familiar with it
01:43:19 <Flygon> It's part of the reason the VLocity trains are limited to 177km/h, iirc
01:43:37 <Flygon> Because V/Line is terrified sick of an accident happening due to poor LED sighting
01:44:02 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: a few years ago there was an accident in germany where sand isolated the wheels of a standing engine, so the track-occupation-circuit didn't trigger
01:44:16 <Flygon> Eddi: You mean New South Wales, right?
01:44:39 <Eddi|zuHause> now they issued a ruling that you may not use sand for braking if below 40km/h and less than 9 axles
01:44:40 <Flygon> There was a steam tour going on, train stalled going up-hill, so they sanded the fuck out of it, and continued on up-hill
01:44:46 <Flygon> Cue track circuits failing
01:45:03 <Flygon> And a rail accident happening with... DD EMU's, iirc
01:45:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: last time i checked, new south wales wasn't in germany :p
01:45:15 <Flygon> I'd have to check with Hendikins, he knows more about this than me
01:45:21 <Flygon> Eddi: Exact same cause of accident
01:45:38 <Flygon> Sand causing circuit failure
01:48:25 <drac_boy> I can't even find the name of the accident but I did find one photo of it tho...
01:50:05 <drac_boy> and looking at it closely the NS train apparently still has its front axles on rails .. just badly tilted :->
01:50:22 <drac_boy> can't say the same of the thalys .. its clearly off
01:50:30 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: sounds like the train-influence-system not prepared for starting up when facing red signal
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01:50:52 <Flygon> You can tell how much lighter the Thalys is @_@
01:50:53 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause yeah .. like I said .. the system they use does not even work below 40kph by some reason
01:51:18 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: several accidents like this happened in germany when a train stopped at a platform after it acknowledged the advance signal, but then started up forgetting about it
01:51:53 <Eddi|zuHause> especially if the main signal is not visible from the platform
01:52:54 <drac_boy> mmm I know this has nothing to do with automatics but theres a lot of stories from uk (probably easy to find only because of being in english) about trains or light locomotive moves being "forgotten" on the mainline ... and the tower operator sets the signal clear for another express to enter ..... not hard to figure out what then happens :-s
01:53:39 <Flygon> Despite how shit Metrol is, I've never seen that happen here
01:54:26 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: that's why track circuits or axle counters were introduced
01:54:34 <Flygon> Wouldn't it make sense to fit every locomotive and MU with GPS's?
01:54:40 <Flygon> So they can be tracked live?
01:54:43 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: they wouldn't be introduced if there was no accident happening before :p
01:54:50 <drac_boy> flygon well the main problem was inexperience or just simply being too overwhelmed with so many schedules that they forget about something outside their window
01:55:00 <Supercheese> GPS should be cheap enough these days
01:55:17 <Flygon> Here, you're more likely to just get rail gridlock :p
01:55:26 <Eddi|zuHause> GPS is not exact enough
01:55:42 <Flygon> Supercheese: It is. It's partially used to track the VLocity, Siemens, and Xtrapolis trains
01:55:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it has a variance of like 10m (for civil usage)
01:55:50 <Eddi|zuHause> so you could be two tracks off
01:55:51 <Supercheese> if you couple it with the ground-based relays it gets much more accurate
01:55:53 <Supercheese> I forget the term
01:55:55 <glx> I don't think GPS can tell on which track a train is
01:56:00 <Flygon> But older systems are still the norm.
01:56:08 <drac_boy> flygon yeah one of the accident was when a light locomotive was stopped and freman was just walking to the tower to state that he was standing there and do they have clearance ....but the busy operator forgot about that while setting the signals for an express on umm the same track :|
01:56:24 <Supercheese> Differential GPS or some such
01:56:30 <drac_boy> everyone was ok..even the light locomotive's engineer
01:56:43 <Flygon> GPS tracking also uses 3G/4G data transfer iirc
01:56:45 <glx> then that would no longer be cheap
01:56:52 <Supercheese> " improved location accuracy, from the 15-meter nominal GPS accuracy to about 10 cm in case of the best implementations."
01:56:58 <Supercheese> but yeah, then cost increases
01:57:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: yes, they use this system in road construction and stuff
01:57:25 <Flygon> It's gotta be worth the cost if V/Line and Metro use it
01:57:47 <Eddi|zuHause> pick a triangulation node that you know the exact position of
01:58:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and measure the position the GPS tells you
01:58:25 <drac_boy> flygon mind you it didn't happen that often but one of the general problem with certain semaphores was when they iced up badly to the point that they weren't operational..sometimes even in the wrong signal aspect too
01:59:04 <Flygon> drac_boy: That's probably part of the reason V/Line got rid of semaphores... yes, stuff can ice up here :p
01:59:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: but i don't see this being practical, except maybe for tracking shunting engines within a confined local area
01:59:37 <Flygon> Sure, you can have 100% remotely controlled semaphores. But you're screwed if it breaks
01:59:45 <Flygon> At least if an LED breaks, it goes blank or red
02:00:02 <drac_boy> funny enough the The Flying Kipper from Britt-produced thomas series showed a very similar problem ... sempahore was set to green but the turnout was frozen to the wrong route...sending poor Henry right into the tail of a parked freight train
02:00:21 <Eddi|zuHause> as the inaccuracy increases with distance to the reference point, you'd have to re-synchronize with different reference points for "mobile" engines
02:01:12 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: how can the signal be set if the switch can't be locked into the right position?!?
02:01:40 <drac_boy> I don't know..maybe even the semaphore was frozen too
02:01:53 <drac_boy> someone would have to check that particular movie clip again to be sure
02:03:45 <Flygon> And I'm the only one that can feed him
02:03:54 <Flygon> Darn this accused horse
02:04:00 <Flygon> Arl be back, in 30-60 mins
02:05:02 * drac_boy goes back to this cargo list again
02:07:53 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, btw. of the fixed wagon sets
02:08:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i totally forgot the double decker wagons of east germany
02:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause> which came in 2 and 4 parts
02:09:09 <Eddi|zuHause> and special sectioned sets of 5 wagons
02:09:26 <Eddi|zuHause> with additional middle parts
02:09:53 <Eddi|zuHause> so 9 parts in total
02:10:33 <Supercheese> Finally fixed my circling seagulls :D
02:10:34 <Eddi|zuHause> the wagons had no wheels at all
02:10:46 <Supercheese> now I just hope no one criticizes my positioning of the shadows...
02:11:03 <glx> Eddi|zuHause: like TGV segments ?
02:11:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and were fixed to the middle parts which had a set of wheels underneath
02:11:30 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: no, TGV has "jacobs bogies", these were different
02:12:31 <drac_boy> eddi I think I had seen that one .. marklin or brawa sold a model of it too .. quite a long consist only suitable for larger layouts
02:14:54 <drac_boy> yep thats the one eddi
02:15:20 <drac_boy> it looks alike to certain modern trams .. "suspended" cars riding on very short axle mounted pieces
02:15:27 <glx> not a bad solution to have more space inside the wagon
02:17:48 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: these were built in the 1950's (long-distance version) and 1970's (local version)
02:19:10 <drac_boy> 1950s sounds a bit similar to the one I recall reading about before .. WWII (or at least a bit before it) designed drg doppelstockwagens ... one of their initial problem was the sloped roof meant no openable windows upstairs or something to that effect
02:19:21 <Eddi|zuHause> in the 1980's they moved to single-wagon units, which evolved into the modern wagons they build until today
02:20:18 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: pre-war doubledecker wagons existed only in a private railroad
02:20:32 <Eddi|zuHause> which operated the trains from Hamburg to Lübeck
02:20:41 * drac_boy sometimes thinks about these early french doubledeck coaches especially for commuter railroads around Paris at the time
02:20:44 <Eddi|zuHause> but these are based on that design
02:20:56 <drac_boy> who else really were doing 2-axle doubledeck cars with outside stairways anyway?!
02:21:03 <drac_boy> crazy french people I tell you
02:21:14 <Eddi|zuHause> those were also the first push-pull wagons
02:21:26 <drac_boy> mm I noticed that eddi...the cab is too obvious :)
02:22:24 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: well, if you assume that it's travelling on the right side... ;)
02:24:15 <drac_boy> I think it may be better if we just stop for now so you can get some sleep? :)
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02:50:13 <Flygon> drac_boy: Interestingly, we used those middle carriage thingos on P/DERM's
02:50:28 <Flygon> It wasn't an innovation that was kept
02:50:44 <Flygon> I guess VR didn't see them as useful
02:53:46 <Flygon> Even articulated trams didn't use them (the Comeng built ones)
02:54:03 <Flygon> It took 5 car trams for the perspective to change
03:06:33 <drac_boy> I'm going to bed now so bye ok? :)
03:42:52 <Supercheese> NML has always given a warning for sprites that use "pure white", yet there seems to be nothing wrong with using it... what are the potential problems with using pure white pixels?
03:50:52 <Snail> no problem in itself, but such a warning might mean a misalignment between the sprites and the code
03:51:25 <Snail> if you never use pure white in your drawings, but only in the background of the file, then the sprites picked up by the code should never include pure white
03:51:33 <Snail> and if pure white is included it means a misalignment
03:51:50 <Snail> if OTOH you use pure white for your sprites, you lose this
03:51:58 <Supercheese> Ah, no, the background is all blue
03:52:18 <Supercheese> With white seagulls, very much intended ;)
03:52:28 <Supercheese> as I said, grf works fine
03:52:30 <Snail> if your background is all blue, then you can disregard this warning
03:52:52 <Snail> seagulls? are you drawing sprites for ships or something? :)
03:53:02 <Supercheese> No, seagulls as newobjects :)
03:53:10 <Supercheese> they look very nice, if I do say so myself
03:53:20 <Snail> wow! and they're animated?
03:53:30 <Supercheese> 18-frame and 24-frame varianets
03:53:52 <Snail> so how do they do? they fly across different tiles?
03:54:00 <Supercheese> they circle around
03:54:12 <Supercheese> I can throw a .gif together
03:57:52 <Supercheese> Well, guess I have to write a "this is what I'm working on" post to go with the .gifs
04:03:42 <Supercheese> Bah, as I'm making my .gifs I spot errors :S
04:06:29 <Supercheese> Must...get...sprites...perfect...
04:06:31 <Snail> the other day I spotted a bug in a piece of code I wrote 6 months ago
04:08:09 <Supercheese> Ok, think I fixed all the errors
04:11:43 <Snail> this would look s great with MB's MariCo :)
04:11:54 <Supercheese> yep, I edited my post to say just that :)
05:16:10 <Supercheese> (more like afk an hour :P )
05:52:00 <Flygon> It's the Hunchback of Moscow!
05:53:13 <Flygon> They resemble the Seagulls from Age of Empires II
05:53:24 <Supercheese> Close, but not from AoE2
05:53:33 <Supercheese> Although hmm, I should look at those
05:53:56 <Flygon> I wasn't implying you ripped them :p
05:54:09 <Flygon> Also, they're larger, and have a lower frame rate. Not really worth ripping
05:54:14 <Flygon> Unless you feel like accelerating them
05:54:44 <Flygon> Either way, ones you did look snazzy
05:55:06 <Flygon> ...and OpenTTD totally needs an Age of Empires II graphics set now :p
05:55:10 <Supercheese> They're modified from a similar game, and yeah
05:55:18 <Supercheese> AoE2 graphics would be snazzy
05:55:47 <Flygon> Yep, build a road from Scotland to Britian, and transport Woaaaaaaaaaaaaaad Raiders!
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05:56:29 <Flygon> Even cooler would be a I+II set going from 2000BC to 1700AD...
05:56:44 <Flygon> But OpenTTD doesn't have the ability to go into negative years
05:56:57 <Flygon> And we'd need new renderings to make post-1700 buildings @_@"
05:57:29 <Flygon> ...and modifying the engine to make time go much faster @ 2000BC and slower @ around the industrial revolution...
05:58:04 <Flygon> Point is, Age of Empires shizz looks really pretty, and is coincidentally isometric
05:58:34 <Flygon> And by coincidence has most of the resources needed for OpenTTD graphics and vehicles :p
05:59:40 <Flygon> But, I lack the resources and ambition to make this a thing
05:59:54 <Flygon> Good idea to keep in the backburner, though :)
05:59:56 <Supercheese> Copyright issues aside :P
06:01:23 <Flygon> I'll buy a Yate and fly to people's houses to verify they own AoEII :P
06:50:37 <Pikka> my class 0 city will not build any residential buildings after the year 2000 :D
06:51:55 <Pikka> population limit greater than 7FFF is a bad idea :}
06:53:35 <Pikka> class 1 craps itself at 2050 too... oops :)
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08:10:23 <Supercheese> Wait, there's a third, unused roadtype?
08:12:16 <Supercheese> Just space for it?
08:12:43 <Supercheese> Then what is this old thread getting revived for...
08:13:08 <Rubidium> something that was space for a long time ago
08:14:25 <Flygon> Speaking of third roadtypes
08:14:26 <Rubidium> yep, the 'reserved' space is used by something else
08:14:49 <Flygon> What'd be really cool is hovering mono or maglev rails that can go above roads
08:14:53 <Flygon> Will never happen, of course :p
08:15:37 <Supercheese> Just code mono/maglev engines as road vehicles or trams
08:15:45 <Supercheese> Bob's yer uncle, hovering above roads
08:15:59 <Flygon> Supercheese: I mean, as an actual railtype
08:16:06 <Flygon> eg. diagonal running and all
08:16:15 <Supercheese> That would require diagonal roads first
08:16:32 <Flygon> I mean a railtype, that can go over road related tiles
08:16:37 <Flygon> And instead of level crossings
08:16:41 <Flygon> It's physically seperate
08:16:53 <Supercheese> I thought you were going for a roadtype
08:18:23 <Supercheese> Elevated monorails, à la Disney?
08:22:02 <Supercheese> You'd still have essentially a level crossing, where road traffic is forced to stop
08:22:09 <Supercheese> unless you build a bridge
08:23:40 <Flygon> Supercheese: I was thinking more Transrapid or Sydney Monorail. Or The Simpsons.
08:23:53 <Flygon> But basically... the rails would be like they're ALWAYS a bridge
08:24:15 <Flygon> But also dependant on the land's base height...
08:24:25 <Flygon> Dunno if that is actually programmable
08:24:26 <Supercheese> OTTD will still treat the "level crossing" the same way though, irrespective of graphics
08:24:48 <Flygon> Especially due to having two railtypes in one tile going the same direction...
08:25:24 <Supercheese> "The [Sydney] Metro Monorail will cease operation in June 2013 and subsequently be pulled down."
08:25:28 <Supercheese> Thus saith wikipedia
08:25:38 <Flygon> Sydney monorail is shiiiit
08:25:55 <Supercheese> Apparently rather unprofitable
08:26:05 <Flygon> It's fares were outragious
08:26:11 <Flygon> Nobody rode it (except tourists)
08:26:35 <Flygon> And it was chosen over a much cheaper and cooler looking tram system
08:26:41 <Flygon> Sydney REALLY wanted Trams back
08:27:08 <Flygon> Partially because it would have allowed reuse of old rollingstock Sydney used to have, and also newer rollingstock Melbourne has, iirc
08:27:36 <Supercheese> But monorails are kewl! :P
08:27:57 <Flygon> Supercheese, remember the monorail episode of The Simpsons?
08:28:03 <__ln__> yeah, and there's no disneyland on the whole continent, so...
08:28:12 <Flygon> Sydney's version went a bit like that
08:28:21 <Flygon> Complete with crashes due to computer failure, in fact
08:28:40 <Supercheese> No Disney Down Under yet?
08:28:43 <Supercheese> They should get on that.
08:28:54 <Flygon> We already have all the Gold Coast theme parks
08:29:02 <Flygon> Warner Brothers basically kicked out Disney :p
08:29:04 <__ln__> (at least i assume there isn't, never been down under myself yet)
08:35:50 <Flygon> ln: Indeed, there is no Disneyland
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08:53:01 <__ln__> There isn't a Disneyland on Antarctica either, I guess.
09:01:22 <Supercheese> They should get on that
09:01:40 <Flygon> __ln__: That's because Australia has mass claimed ownership of Antartica
09:01:43 <Supercheese> very cheap real estate, I hear
09:05:48 <andythenorth> Pikka: export / import industries....good or bad?
09:05:50 <Supercheese> Oh, I suppose I should make a land-based version of those seagulls
09:06:02 <Supercheese> currently only water
09:06:17 <Pikka> I meant to add ports to TaI but never got round to it yet
09:07:04 <Pikka> I had a go with nocargoal btw... only one of each industry on a 128* map, didn't work. :P
09:07:28 <Pikka> got to about 60% of 7500 for each cargo
09:07:49 <Pikka> I guess it's more fun with bigger, more spread out maps
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09:13:58 <andythenorth> Pikka: for cargo goals, funding primaries is pretty essential
09:15:24 <andythenorth> dan has some graphics for them
09:15:35 <andythenorth> question is, how / where to locate them?
09:15:44 <Supercheese> Near map edges, presumably
09:15:47 <andythenorth> and do I need to provide a dry-land version (warehouse)
09:15:55 <andythenorth> for maps with pathologically low amount of sea
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09:18:56 <Pikka> of course, there's only so much you can do to prevent your international port generating on a little lake :)
09:19:10 <andythenorth> fishing harbour has same issue ;)
09:19:48 <Supercheese> No good way to check if the water has a 'path' to the map edge, eh?
09:24:40 <Supercheese> So, hmm, if I want this object to be buildable on slopes, do I have to have a ton of different spritelayouts and switch between them based on the value of tile_slope, or is there some way to automagically have the groundsprite be whatever slope it needs to?
09:25:11 <andythenorth> Supercheese: sounds like a standard routing algorithm problem to me ;)
09:25:28 <Supercheese> simply using GROUNDSPRITE_NORMAL results in flat sprites on slopes, which is Bad™
09:25:30 <andythenorth> but I have never implemented one, it's possibly beyond my maths skills, and it's not a newgrf thing
09:26:19 <Supercheese> perhaps I should try providing no ground sprite at all
09:26:51 <andythenorth> that _might_ result in a black tile / garbled graphics
09:26:55 <andythenorth> it does for industries
09:28:30 <andythenorth> you might need slope-aware ground
09:28:34 <Supercheese> Yeah, garbled nonsense
09:28:38 <andythenorth> possibly terrain aware too
09:28:45 <andythenorth> this is always fun :P
09:28:53 <Supercheese> No way to automatically have OTTD take care of that?
09:29:04 <Supercheese> I just want to have the base ground unchanged and float sprites over it
09:29:56 <andythenorth> industries and stations can't do that :P
09:30:03 <Supercheese> but this is an object
09:30:18 <andythenorth> yeah, I haven't coded objects
09:30:50 <Supercheese> I could just limit to water-only
09:30:55 <Supercheese> solve all my problems
09:31:13 <Supercheese> of course people will come a-wanting them over ground nearly instantaneously
09:31:13 <andythenorth> the pragmatic route ;)
09:32:06 <Pikka> working out the slope and providing graphics isn't /that/ hard
09:32:35 <Pikka> particularly if you limit yourself to the four straight slopes :]
09:32:37 <andythenorth> other new objects have done it
09:32:55 <Pikka> I've done it with houses
09:33:12 <Supercheese> Eh, I know what I'd have to do
09:33:19 <andythenorth> handling snow / partial snow / desert etc is a bit of faff
09:33:20 <Supercheese> I'd rather there be a lazy way of course :P
09:34:18 <Supercheese> Think it's time to dive into the OGFX+ landscape code, they've done pretty much what I want
09:34:32 <Supercheese> I've already borrowed their animation coding
09:35:29 <Supercheese> sprite: LOAD_TEMP(var_groundsprite) + slope_to_sprite_offset(nearby_tile_slope(0, 0));
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09:36:43 <Supercheese> and a very nasty-looking switch later on
09:37:03 <Supercheese> although I probably won't need that
09:37:44 <andythenorth> Supercheese: it's easier than doing it with nfo :)
09:37:57 <andythenorth> or at least this way you avoid a crash course in masks and shifts ;)
09:38:00 <Supercheese> no shit, raw hex makes my neurons die painful deaths
09:38:11 <Supercheese> even commented hex is not much better
09:39:07 <andythenorth> it's really fine, once you've learnt it
09:39:48 <Supercheese> I'm exaggerating, yes
09:40:01 <Supercheese> still, the learning curve for NML is far less steep
09:41:18 <andythenorth> could the pathfinder check for a minimum number of connected water tiles?
09:41:27 <andythenorth> for a newgrf placement check?
09:42:11 <andythenorth> seems like basic A* or such?
09:43:20 <andythenorth> could cap it for performance reasons, there is an upper limit beyond which checking is pointless (big enough is big enough)
09:50:56 <Pikka> you could always build "sensor tiles" as part of the industry, eg channel markers... :P
09:51:29 <andythenorth> I already use 'magic' water tile 0xFF to ensure clear space
09:51:40 <andythenorth> maybe I can implement A* or similar in newgrf
09:51:43 <andythenorth> using the tile checks :o
09:52:20 <Pikka> I suppose if it's only doing it during industry placement you don't need to worry too much about performance issues
09:55:17 <andythenorth> can't decide if ports should be forced to be near map edge or not
09:59:11 <Supercheese> Make it a parameter
09:59:27 <peter1138> what kind of port are you talking about here?
10:00:25 * Supercheese puts on his best Italian New York accent
10:00:35 <Supercheese> 'Impoht / Expoht'
10:01:01 <Supercheese> 'Impoaht / Expoaht' perhaps is closer :P
10:02:24 <andythenorth> export cargo 'foo', import cargo 'blah'
10:04:26 <V453000> coal->cow factory? awesome
10:04:27 <Supercheese> Well, the OGFX+ code works splendidly for detecting slopes, but it seems to have broken my animation
10:06:11 <andythenorth> export / import is basically a massive cheat for economies where the goal is a low number of industries / cargos
10:06:23 <andythenorth> it lets me square the circle on some broken chains
10:06:32 <andythenorth> without unpicking all of FIRS and getting yelled at (again)
10:09:09 <andythenorth> I can also please some rivet counters
10:09:21 <andythenorth> e.g. UK has aluminium plants, but no bauxite mines
10:09:27 <andythenorth> so ports work there too
10:09:49 <V453000> that looks really weirdly realistic
10:09:57 <V453000> but lets see what you come up with :)
10:10:06 * andythenorth ponders European economies
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10:10:20 <Pinkbeast> weirdly: yes, in OTTD-land we are always on a curiously self-sufficient island
10:10:30 <andythenorth> EU economies driving you away? :P
10:10:59 <andythenorth> I could do Australia, and include a pikka-factory :P
10:11:05 <andythenorth> produces: pixels
10:11:08 <Supercheese> Augh, what broke the animations
10:11:15 <andythenorth> requires: fuck knows :)
10:11:26 <andythenorth> what fuels a pikka?
10:11:38 <Pinkbeast> BEER? Cheese sandwiches?
10:11:53 <Pikka> I think a wrap would be good, I will go and make one
10:12:02 <Supercheese> That's a wrap, folks
10:12:08 <Supercheese> (couldn't resist)
10:13:05 <andythenorth> there is plenty of LOL potential in a discussion about EU economies o_O
10:13:17 <Supercheese> or most any economy, really
10:13:59 <Supercheese> Please, not that again
10:14:06 <Supercheese> We've been over this ;)
10:14:16 <peter1138> and you still get it wrong :p
10:14:24 <andythenorth> afaik, Europe's main industry is cheese
10:14:27 <Supercheese> *sigh* How many dictionaries must I quote
10:15:51 <andythenorth> cheese factory: requires milk, produces cheese
10:16:01 <andythenorth> deliver EU subsidy for more production
10:16:24 <andythenorth> does Europe make any beer of any kind?
10:16:51 <Supercheese> Most all kinds of beer, I'd expect ;)
10:17:22 * andythenorth wonders if FIRS needs a whaling station
10:17:32 <Supercheese> I might have some whale sprites around somewhere
10:17:43 <Supercheese> I know I have some shark sprites
10:18:01 <peter1138> Supercheese, and they all say either unacceptable or "us only"
10:18:11 <peter1138> so the word you wanted was almost
10:18:36 <andythenorth> let's try examples
10:18:46 <andythenorth> "FIRS is almost done"
10:19:02 <andythenorth> "peter1138 has almost talked himself into doing roadtypes"
10:19:11 <peter1138> neither of those are true though :p
10:19:17 <Supercheese> The shortening of almost to most is most frequent for "almost any" -> "most any"
10:19:18 <andythenorth> "a spec for newgrf effect vehicles is almost sane"
10:19:34 <andythenorth> see, the last one can use most
10:19:39 <Supercheese> "modify the adjectives all, every, and any"
10:19:43 <andythenorth> "a spec for newgrf effect vehicles is most sane"
10:19:54 <peter1138> the shortening of almost to most is most frequent for americans who don't know what it is wrong
10:20:29 <Supercheese> "First Known Use: circa 1584"
10:20:39 <Supercheese> I don't think our country was even around then
10:20:50 <Supercheese> last book I read said it wasn't anyhow ;)
10:20:58 <peter1138> thy arst thou correcteth
10:21:48 <peter1138> and ye olde shoppe of course
10:22:24 <Eddi|zuHause> "thy" sounds grammatically wrong in this place :)
10:23:39 <Eddi|zuHause> and who ever got the idea to use "y" for "th"?
10:23:48 <andythenorth> you should all have a baby to hold
10:23:59 <andythenorth> that would improve your morning
10:24:17 <Eddi|zuHause> the typical morning at 11:30 AM? :)
10:24:29 <Pinkbeast> Assuming your morning has insufficient nappies in it
10:24:52 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: yes, i know that character :)
10:25:07 <Supercheese> anyway, I should sleep
10:25:15 <peter1138> Medieval printing presses did not contain the letter thorn, so the letter y was substituted
10:25:27 <Supercheese> I'll figure out why the animation broke later
10:25:29 <andythenorth> poor unicode compatibility
10:25:37 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: so why does nobody then spell "thy" as "yy"? :p
10:25:39 <Supercheese> I could do that... most any time
10:25:57 *** Supercheese was kicked by peter1138 (almost)
10:27:19 <Eddi|zuHause> autojoin is most evil :p
10:28:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you offended him, he even left the server :/
10:28:32 <andythenorth> so...checking the number of connected water tiles from newgrf?
10:30:37 <andythenorth> the purpose being to avoid building water-based industries in teeny-tiny lakes
10:36:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so which part of that was the question?
10:42:16 <peter1138> ok, do i build lots of independent rail lines or one big network?
10:42:35 <peter1138> and... do i build "realistic" rail junctions or just have lines connect up willynilly?
10:44:56 <Pinkbeast> Don't just build one line per connection because then it gets really dull
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10:50:24 <peter1138> gah, this station-name-from-nearby-industry thing is kinda annoying
10:50:30 <peter1138> built a station in a town
10:50:36 <peter1138> and it's name "town grocer's shop"
10:52:08 <Pinkbeast> On the other hand, don't build a complex network because you can't manage fast+slow on the mainline effectively
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10:53:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> taking another look on that terkhen format for scns
10:54:01 <peter1138> uses railway bridge previews when building road bridges
10:54:08 <ZxBiohazardZx> why is alpine/snow not a climate layer palet?
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10:54:20 <andythenorth> peter1138: other people find the names annoying, it _might_ be a valid parameter option
10:54:21 <ZxBiohazardZx> default, desert, rainforest
10:54:23 <andythenorth> how much do you care?
10:54:31 <ZxBiohazardZx> why is alpine/snow not part of it?
10:54:33 <Terkhen> ZxBiohazardZx: because you cannot modify snow except by changing the snow line height
10:54:38 <peter1138> andythenorth, is it firs doing that or openttd though?
10:54:55 <Eddi|zuHause> ZxBiohazardZx: snow isn't stored on the map, it's calculated based on height
10:55:09 <ZxBiohazardZx> Terkhen then snow is available in ALL types?
10:55:23 <Terkhen> ZxBiohazardZx: no, only in the subartic climate
10:55:43 <ZxBiohazardZx> would it be hard to change that into all climates based on height/setting
10:55:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> with default having infinite high level so it never shows?
10:56:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> also i dont get how the format is lose from newgrf adding after creation
10:56:39 <Eddi|zuHause> the morning of helpful answers :p
10:56:59 <ZxBiohazardZx> if you define city/towns, the newgrfs will (majorly) affect them ?
10:57:04 <Terkhen> ZxBiohazardZx: the whole point of the format is being NewGRF independent
10:57:11 <Eddi|zuHause> ZxBiohazardZx: by exporting and reimporting as heightmap
10:57:15 <peter1138> andythenorth, i like the naming but i prefer it to just take the normal name if it's in the town radius
10:57:20 <Terkhen> in the scenario format, towns are only defined by their position and number of houses
10:57:29 <ZxBiohazardZx> ah ok Terkhen, thats great
10:57:30 <Eddi|zuHause> ZxBiohazardZx: you will lose some details, but not all
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10:57:39 <peter1138> also, both the 1, 2, and 4 horse carriages have 10hp :S
10:57:44 <ZxBiohazardZx> i keep running into stupid issues porting my scenarios over to multiple newgrfsets
10:57:47 <Terkhen> if you change your town NewGRF, you will get the same town in the same place with the same number of houses, but it will be different
10:57:53 <ZxBiohazardZx> i usually just hack them and play with modified grfs
10:57:55 <andythenorth> peter1138: sounds like an ottd option to ignore industry prop 24?
10:57:58 <ZxBiohazardZx> works fine 99/100 times :P
10:58:01 <Terkhen> ZxBiohazardZx: yes, we want to solve this issue for scenario authors :)
10:58:18 <Pinkbeast> peter: RV power has a too-large quantum for horse-drawn vehicles to have sensible power. :-/
10:58:29 <ZxBiohazardZx> stupid newGRFs and their insane linking in the core
10:58:48 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: it was worse when it called the station "... Mine" when it was near a recycling place
10:59:04 <andythenorth> if I don't set prop 24, what happens?
10:59:14 <andythenorth> it uses the industry type or something?
10:59:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it uses the default method, "mine" for extractive, "forest" for organic, nothing for the rest, or somesuch
11:00:14 <Terkhen> ZxBiohazardZx: I'm slowly progressing on it... I'm not sure if I will finish it in time for the 1.3.0 release, though
11:00:19 <ZxBiohazardZx> so that brings me to the next question Terkhen did you even start on it?:P
11:00:35 <ZxBiohazardZx> you answered the question before i even asked it :|
11:01:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> Eddi is right, it is the morning of helpful answers :P
11:01:19 <Terkhen> in the worst case I could always release a patched 1.3.0 version that allows you to convert a scn to extended heightmap, and then back to scn with different NewGRFs
11:01:36 <ZxBiohazardZx> im cool with that
11:01:50 <ZxBiohazardZx> i currently just exploit the "allow modified grfs" setting alot :)
11:02:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> works personally just fine
11:02:00 <Terkhen> I'm still hoping to have it done for 1.3.0, though :P
11:02:14 <ZxBiohazardZx> just starts to become a biatch when you want to share a "perfect combo"
11:02:24 <ZxBiohazardZx> i also had another question
11:02:27 <ZxBiohazardZx> but i forgot it :P
11:03:36 <ZxBiohazardZx> is there a (crappy or not) patch for cbh on forums that you guys know of?
11:04:11 <ZxBiohazardZx> searching CBH or custom bridge heads results in 10.000 threads that are not helpfull in any way
11:04:16 <Terkhen> an ancient, not complete patch from 5 years ago IIRC
11:04:21 <Terkhen> that patch wouldn't be helpful either
11:04:27 <Terkhen> it needs... new map array :D
11:04:31 <ZxBiohazardZx> ill take that as a no then
11:04:35 <ZxBiohazardZx> how did ttdp do it?
11:04:36 <Terkhen> or maybe not, I don't remember the specifics for that feature
11:04:40 <peter1138> just needs to be written in a way that works ;p
11:04:51 <Pikka> peter1138: HOVS2 will come with a special feature to solve that problem
11:05:24 <peter1138> but then you never finished it :p
11:05:27 <ZxBiohazardZx> so CBH/rail over tunnel entrance is far from there (both somehow are working in ttdp) XD
11:05:36 <peter1138> i finished CBH but it never got committed
11:05:36 <Pikka> I restarted it, peter1138
11:05:41 <andythenorth> I cba to do BANDIT either :P
11:05:45 <ZxBiohazardZx> peter1138 ofc you did :P
11:05:46 <andythenorth> RVs are too crappy
11:05:50 <andythenorth> they're all wrong
11:05:51 <Pikka> one vehicle drawn, 38 to go
11:06:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> peter1138 why not share that work you did on CBH
11:06:32 <Eddi|zuHause> ZxBiohazardZx: if you want to update a patch based on r3000 ;)
11:07:03 <andythenorth> Pikka: send me your sprites, I'll send you my codes
11:07:16 <Pikka> eh, the codes is the easy bit :}
11:07:39 <andythenorth> fricking set design is the hard bit :P
11:07:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> peter1138 cause i think cbh is an awesome feature in ttdp specially for scenariobuilding
11:07:57 <ZxBiohazardZx> it allows more dense city/roadlayouts
11:08:06 <Eddi|zuHause> code writes itself, obviously
11:08:32 <ZxBiohazardZx> you hire gnomes that write it for you!
11:08:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean that literally...
11:09:45 <Eddi|zuHause> a script of ~300 lines writing ~30000 lines of code
11:09:45 <andythenorth> my graphics draw themselves too
11:10:20 <andythenorth> what's annoying is that the set doesn't design itself
11:10:32 <andythenorth> maybe we just make a 'set designing script'
11:10:39 <andythenorth> and then let AIs play test versions
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11:10:44 <andythenorth> something will emerge as winner
11:10:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: genetic newgrfs!!
11:10:58 <peter1138> ZxBiohazardZx, i did it 6 years ago, it won't apply
11:11:13 <andythenorth> +1 to genetic newgrfs
11:11:28 <andythenorth> creativity is over-rated, just iterate
11:12:48 <ZxBiohazardZx> peter1138 meh ok so pretty much idea exists, just no code for it
11:13:08 * andythenorth ponders an insurrection
11:13:11 <andythenorth> against autorefit
11:14:07 <Eddi|zuHause> ZxBiohazardZx: there exists another patch, which is only like 5 years old
11:14:19 <andythenorth> nah...I've whined about autorefit enough here
11:15:03 <peter1138> my version actually worked but got made obsolete
11:15:14 <Rubidium> it's all Celestar's fault ;)
11:15:17 <Eddi|zuHause> it should be in the SVN
11:15:37 <andythenorth> so frosch has convinced me that newgrf effect vehicles would be a Good Thing
11:15:50 <andythenorth> featuring spritegroups for using n realsprites
11:16:10 <ZxBiohazardZx> Eddi 5 years, 6 years, both are ancient
11:16:20 <ZxBiohazardZx> to much shit happened between and you know that just as much as i do
11:16:59 <andythenorth> using spritegroups for effect vehicles would handle cases like ships with 4 funnels
11:17:30 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: Commit by celestar :: r9109 /branches/custombridgeheads/src (3 files) (2007-03-11 09:28:58 UTC)
11:17:31 <DorpsGek> Rubidium: [cbh] -Fix: Stabilize the reversing of trains on bridges/bridgeheads a little (it still crashes at times however). Also re-allow the construction of signals on bridgeheads
11:17:44 <Rubidium> it seems closer to 6 years old ;)
11:18:10 <Eddi|zuHause> still, about 1 year younger than peter1138's patch :)
11:18:20 <peter1138> yeah mine is nearly 7 years ago
11:18:52 <peter1138> although that was later versions, dunno when i started it
11:18:57 <ZxBiohazardZx> you all know that thats ancient
11:19:25 <andythenorth> for sanity, newgrf effect vehicles might not get VA 2, just an animation rate and a set of frames to step through (or VA 2 with just one var: animation frame)
11:20:00 <ZxBiohazardZx> and you both prolly had valid reasons to stop updating the CBH patches you made
11:20:03 <peter1138> there are global variables that all features get access to
11:21:54 <andythenorth> change smoke based on date :P
11:22:11 <andythenorth> alllows newgrfs to reflect introduction of emissions control laws :P
11:23:56 <andythenorth> puzzled about how to control generation of effect vehicles though
11:24:09 <andythenorth> newgrf shouldn't be doing that on every tick, that's bonkers
11:25:02 <ZxBiohazardZx> Hackalittlebit did get "signals on bridges and tunnels" implemented in a ugly hacky way :P
11:25:53 <andythenorth> I'm -1 on signals for tunnels / bridges
11:26:30 <Rubidium> with the current map array signals on bridges/tunnels are mutually exclusive with cbh/cte
11:26:59 <Eddi|zuHause> ZxBiohazardZx: that has pretty much nothing to do with this, though
11:27:10 <Emmy-Eviltwin> what's in a name, eh
11:27:15 <ZxBiohazardZx> true eddi, but afaik that link you posted is a similar implementation
11:27:23 <ZxBiohazardZx> aka the highly disliked "hack"
11:27:31 <Eddi|zuHause> ZxBiohazardZx: it is not.
11:27:40 <ZxBiohazardZx> and i personally have alot of likes on signals in bridge/tunnels
11:27:47 <ZxBiohazardZx> or multiple trains on bridge/tunnel :P
11:28:00 <Emmy-Eviltwin> wait, we once had signals on bridge heads?
11:28:05 <ZxBiohazardZx> allows you to build longer bridges /tunnels without insane jams
11:28:34 <andythenorth> or just build shorter ones
11:28:47 <ZxBiohazardZx> sometimes that isnt an option
11:28:52 <Pinkbeast> Awkward when some miscreant has put their huge town in the way
11:29:11 <Emmy-Eviltwin> that works if you only want to cross sea or something like that
11:29:30 <Emmy-Eviltwin> but not if you want to cross a huge valley or tunnel underneath a large town
11:29:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> crossing the sea, crossing a valley, tunneling under a long mountainside or even underneath a town
11:29:48 <peter1138> i implemented signals on custom bridge heads i think, been a while
11:29:50 <Pinkbeast> Couldn't the signals be a property of the wormhole keeping them out of the map array
11:29:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> you cant always make a 3-long tunnel and then exclavate a hole just for signalling
11:30:13 * andythenorth stops arguing against vapourware features that no-one is working on anyway ;)
11:30:31 <ZxBiohazardZx> its the reason chrills patchpack is popular
11:30:48 <ZxBiohazardZx> signals on bridge/tunnels, cargodist/paxdest and some other features
11:31:02 <andythenorth> how do you know it's popular?
11:31:16 * drac_boy always uses more than one tunnel if its high traffic anyway
11:31:21 <drac_boy> thats what the advanced signals are for
11:31:50 <ZxBiohazardZx> im not willing to place 8-10 tunnels if i can do with 1 that contains hacky signalling
11:33:18 <ZxBiohazardZx> mainly was wondering about that scenario /extended heightmap thingy of Terkhen
11:33:29 <ZxBiohazardZx> and ofc dreaming about cbh, but yeah
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11:35:39 <andythenorth> or learn to dream things other people are prepared to code
11:35:53 <ZxBiohazardZx> peter1138 yeah i know :)
11:36:02 <ZxBiohazardZx> i can do some minor bullshit
11:36:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> but im not doing computer/software engineering
11:36:16 <ZxBiohazardZx> all i did was a minor
11:36:25 <ZxBiohazardZx> that only involved java and some opengl
11:36:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> bachelor programme
11:36:57 <ZxBiohazardZx> 30 ECTS worth of software engineering
11:37:05 <ZxBiohazardZx> in my civil engineering degree
11:37:11 <peter1138> you know you don't need degrees to program, right?
11:37:22 <Pinkbeast> Since we all know what an ECTS is we are now enlightened. :-)
11:37:36 <ZxBiohazardZx> ECTS = European Credit Transfer System
11:37:53 <ZxBiohazardZx> its the study-points-measurement in europe, 1 ECTS = 28hours roughly
11:37:59 <ZxBiohazardZx> i know i dont need a degree for it
11:38:23 <ZxBiohazardZx> i just never got around to learn C/c++ apart from reading some openttd and worldofwarcraft emulation codes
11:38:29 <ZxBiohazardZx> and doing minor edits to them
11:38:31 <Pinkbeast> Errr well I'm in Europe and it's news to me (also, aren't "minors" in "bachelor programmes" American terminology? It is a mystery.)
11:38:44 <peter1138> well guess were most of us learnt c/c++ from...
11:38:55 <ZxBiohazardZx> i guess self taught
11:39:08 <ZxBiohazardZx> as most hobbyprogrammers do
11:39:18 <peter1138> self learnt from... delving into openttd
11:39:36 <ZxBiohazardZx> you jumped into openttd with 0.0 skill/experience?
11:39:43 <ZxBiohazardZx> then you learned ALOT of C/Cpp lolz
11:40:01 <ZxBiohazardZx> you cant learn just by reading or altering existing code
11:40:11 <ZxBiohazardZx> so you knew some shit before you started :P
11:40:26 <ZxBiohazardZx> copy paste only gets you so far
11:40:37 <Pinkbeast> I knew no C at all before seeing the Hack source.
11:40:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> i learned that on TC already
11:40:53 <Pinkbeast> ... there's no rule against digging up a copy of K&R while you're doing it
11:41:00 <peter1138> take Belugas, he is a delphi programmer
11:41:04 <peter1138> knew nothing of c/c++
11:41:20 <ZxBiohazardZx> your a programmer, regardless of you language, some methodics are the same
11:41:22 <Terkhen> I started with copy paste too, knowing basic C++ only
11:41:32 <ZxBiohazardZx> you all have variables, functions basic knowledge
11:41:37 <peter1138> yup, born a programmer
11:41:38 <Flygon> I started with 68k ASM
11:41:46 <Flygon> Then I gave up programming :p
11:41:54 <ZxBiohazardZx> the only reason i got through java was because i had a book and all the answers where copy/paste from some sheets
11:42:01 <Pinkbeast> In particular a large program like OTTD (or Hack/ NetHack) often has a fairly clear internal structure where you don't need to know much of the language to change the game logic
11:42:21 <ZxBiohazardZx> i gave the suggestion of putting screenshots in a screenshots dir a go
11:42:22 <peter1138> i wouldn't say clear, in ottd's case :)
11:42:27 <ZxBiohazardZx> with only errors as result
11:42:32 <ZxBiohazardZx> i only once got a patch in ottd
11:42:40 <ZxBiohazardZx> but that was because the change was idiotly easy
11:42:57 <ZxBiohazardZx> and only involved changing a calculation around, not writing a feature from scrap
11:43:01 <Pinkbeast> peter: Compared to a pre-ANSI-C roguelike in '88? OK, there's some deep magic in places, but it's not too bad.
11:46:17 <ZxBiohazardZx> i gave it a try by copy pasting similar code but ofc it didnt work :P
11:48:07 <ZxBiohazardZx> r24866 is current head right?
11:49:11 <ZxBiohazardZx> or is git not following svn anymore
11:49:27 <Pinkbeast> I'm not sure that muddling through by examining the current code must imply a complete aversion to the use of Google
11:49:47 <andythenorth> ZxBiohazardZx: so you can do partial differential equations, and eigenvectors, and finite element analysis, and static analysis of the moments of a truss bridge under load, and calculate the tensile strength of a piece of rebar, and the time it should take concrete to dry
11:49:51 <andythenorth> but you can't program :o
11:49:56 <andythenorth> programming is *easy*
11:50:02 <andythenorth> civil engineering is hard
11:50:10 * andythenorth quit civil engineering
11:50:17 <Pinkbeast> And leads to much more comedy when done wrong
11:50:58 <ZxBiohazardZx> well i hate partial DE's and finite element analysis is not my cup of tea either
11:51:05 <ZxBiohazardZx> but i at least passed those subjects
11:51:25 <andythenorth> I pretty much failed eng. maths
11:51:27 <ZxBiohazardZx> as for concrete it takes 28 days to reach its final strenght unless you use some weird setup
11:51:43 <ZxBiohazardZx> dont start about it, my eng maths are my only resit subjects :(
11:51:46 <andythenorth> and yet I have patches in openttd :P
11:51:48 <ZxBiohazardZx> still have to do 2 :(
11:52:36 <ZxBiohazardZx> ill try the screenshot dir implementation again
11:52:43 <ZxBiohazardZx> as that was another pain in my ass earlier
11:54:09 <Eddi|zuHause> ZxBiohazardZx: i thought that was already implemented...?
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11:56:13 <ZxBiohazardZx> Eddi not that i know of :|
11:56:22 <ZxBiohazardZx> it was suggested, not actually implemented afaik
11:56:28 <andythenorth> so what production mechanic for port industries?
11:56:34 <ZxBiohazardZx> i gave it a very crappy try
11:56:37 <andythenorth> only produce when something delivered?
11:56:41 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: as primary industry
11:56:49 <ZxBiohazardZx> peter1138 what rev added it?
11:57:04 <ZxBiohazardZx> for i dont see it
11:57:17 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: potentially using the export cargos as booster
11:57:36 <Rubidium> ZxBiohazardZx: svn info svn://svn.openttd.org/trunk
11:57:52 * andythenorth considers using gradual processing for once (aka stockpiling)
11:57:58 <ZxBiohazardZx> peter1138 thats not in 1.2.3 stable?
11:58:30 <ZxBiohazardZx> hmmz that might explain
11:59:51 <ZxBiohazardZx> anyway great! :)
12:01:22 <ZxBiohazardZx> blegh it needed mroe lines then i wrote :P
12:01:38 <ZxBiohazardZx> has some similarities though:P
12:01:45 <Eddi|zuHause> they always do :p
12:01:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> mine gave errros thus i forgot something
12:02:01 <Eddi|zuHause> "hey, daylength is a one-line patch"
12:02:18 <ZxBiohazardZx> my fios.cpp is bad, his actually adds the search :P
12:04:37 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, tee hee
12:06:05 <ZxBiohazardZx> does r24806 need dutch translation?
12:07:51 <Rubidium> it should already have one
12:08:29 <ZxBiohazardZx> ah didnt see it but fine
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12:10:14 <ZxBiohazardZx> its kinda literal but it works
12:10:41 <ZxBiohazardZx> STR_WARNING_SCREENSHOT_SIZE_MESSAGE :{YELLOW}De schermafdruk heeft een resolutie van {COMMA} x {COMMA} pixels. De schermafdruk maken kan even duren. Verder gaan?
12:11:34 <ZxBiohazardZx> ...pixels. Het maken van de schermafdruk kan even duren.... sounds more logical to myself
12:12:03 <Alberth> become a translator yourself, and improve :)
12:12:10 <ZxBiohazardZx> not sure why, the one selected is fine XD
12:18:56 <Pikka> only for once, andythenorth?
12:19:24 <andythenorth> think most of FIRS processes on arrival at industry
12:19:46 <andythenorth> doing it literally once would be interesting
12:19:51 <andythenorth> a single-use industry
12:22:01 <andythenorth> fruit as an imported cargo for Arctic?
12:22:04 <andythenorth> or a bit wrong really?
12:31:16 <andythenorth> can clay be mined in Arctic o_O
12:33:14 <drac_boy> clay? it has to come from under the ground .. which is frozen anyway? :)
12:37:41 <drac_boy> hmm what to call a grf that is more than just trains?
12:37:47 <drac_boy> "gameset grf" or what?? :-s
12:42:10 <andythenorth> bad Eddi|zuHause - villages as industries :)
12:42:16 <drac_boy> that doesn't help andythenorth :P
12:42:31 <Terkhen> andythenorth: only in summer!
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12:46:06 <andythenorth> maybe I put furniture factory back into Arctic Basic
12:46:12 <andythenorth> IKEA has to make all that crap somewhere
12:46:29 <Terkhen> don't they make it in china like everyone else?
12:47:19 <andythenorth> China has sub-arctic regions too though :)
12:48:11 <andythenorth> I have timber (cut wood) as an export cargo, also considering alcohol, petrol, chemicals or goods
12:48:31 <andythenorth> probably alcohol and petrol
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12:58:28 <peter1138> remember when people used cdrom drives to play audio cds?
12:59:16 <oskari89> Yes, and there was separate cable between CD-rom drive and sound card :D
12:59:59 *** Emmy-Eviltwin is now known as MNIM
13:00:31 <MNIM> why did I only notice that now?
13:02:38 <peter1138> don't think my soundcards have connectors for that :S
13:02:51 <MNIM> I had an audiojack in my cd drive.
13:03:08 <peter1138> i suppose everyone just downloads from itunes or something these days
13:03:55 <Pinkbeast> It's a DVD drive, but I've still got such a setup
13:03:59 <peter1138> work on TaI? surely not!
13:04:34 <drac_boy> oskari89 that was only because audio couldn't be routed through the non-dma ata cables at the time
13:04:53 <oskari89> Pikka: That's a nice one :)
13:05:02 <drac_boy> udma/33 kinda made it reducent but some drives still choosed to do it that way tho
13:06:25 <oskari89> That's kind of hypnotic gif
13:06:29 <peter1138> originally reading CDDA was not well supported
13:06:35 <peter1138> nothing to do with UDMA
13:09:29 <peter1138> and it's still more efficient to get the drive to play back the audio
13:11:00 <Pinkbeast> Urrr. I might rather take that processing out of the drive and have it in the CPU where I can use it for other things when I'm not playing a CD.
13:12:40 <peter1138> it's a tiny part of the already existing processing capabilities of the drive
13:12:57 <peter1138> which is not general purpose
13:13:39 <Pinkbeast> In that case is it then a significant part of the CPU? # The usual cycle of reincarnation stuff suggests it can plausibly be done either way
13:15:44 <peter1138> it involves cpu time, memory, memory bandwidth, pci(e) bus bandwidth, sending/receiving ATA commands/data, audio dma, etc etc
13:16:04 <peter1138> versus getting a cd player to do what a cd player was designed to do
13:16:23 <Pinkbeast> ... plus having the stuff in the CD player to do it
13:17:48 * drac_boy thinks peter1138 is overstating it a lot
13:18:29 <Pinkbeast> ... in particular, I suspect the bandwidth in both cases is about diddly squat
13:19:02 <drac_boy> pinkbeast yeah its only a few kb per sec which is nothing to pci (and even less to any form of pcie)
13:20:02 <peter1138> not much but still requires processing
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13:20:20 <peter1138> that's just the raw data
13:20:43 <drac_boy> then how do you compress 176 into 150 even less with overhead?
13:20:59 <peter1138> where do you get 150 from?
13:21:04 <Pinkbeast> Errr well it wouldn't be compression if it didn't make things smaller
13:21:12 <peter1138> what compression? :S
13:21:35 <Pinkbeast> I assume drac means "this compressed audio format can be done at 150KB/s", but I'm guessing
13:21:37 <drac_boy> 150 is the cd rate :p
13:21:51 <drac_boy> and as far as I know non-computer audio drives have always been 1x still
13:21:54 <peter1138> 150KB/s is single speed rate for DATA
13:22:06 <peter1138> data has additional overhead to ensure data integrity
13:22:24 <peter1138> audio uses a different scheme
13:22:28 <Pinkbeast> 176 seems a factor of 2 too high.
13:22:35 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast yeah that makes two of us
13:22:43 <Pinkbeast> Ah, but memory bandwidth, yes.
13:22:47 <peter1138> partly why early drives didn't support CDDA over the data interface, the on-disc format is different
13:22:59 <peter1138> 44100 * 2 * 2 = 176400 bytes/second
13:23:18 <peter1138> unless you're listening to mono or 8 bit CDs (which didn't exist)
13:23:24 <Pinkbeast> Do us a favour and say where the other *2 comes from
13:23:28 <drac_boy> the funny thing is I could find circuits for a simple 8mhz cdrom players .. and they never have any external memory at all
13:23:46 <peter1138> drac_boy, exactly, they don't need it
13:23:59 <drac_boy> peter1138 so why do you talk about memory bandwidth if it doesn't exist?
13:24:03 <Pinkbeast> stereo: bingo, you're right.
13:24:17 <peter1138> drac_boy, memory IS used if you use your CPU to play back the audio
13:24:31 <drac_boy> peter1138 the 8mhz cpu IS PLAYING IT, thats why
13:24:40 <andythenorth> Pikka: wot, no country house :O
13:24:50 <drac_boy> how're you Lappro? (and btw its morning here ;) )
13:24:51 <peter1138> drac_boy, go back to the start please
13:24:55 <Pikka> I haven't drawn them yet
13:25:02 <Pikka> and they won't be in cities anyway, only villages :P
13:25:08 <Lappro> im good, when it´s holiday it is always better :P you?
13:25:11 <andythenorth> hey look! A town in 1890 that isn't all theatres
13:25:19 <drac_boy> pikka heh that would be a zone 0 only house right?
13:25:24 <andythenorth> seriously, the answer to the theatre bug should not be 'fix it in newgrf'
13:25:27 * drac_boy is slowly understanding the town zone thing I think
13:25:31 <peter1138> drac_boy, that was the whole argument, it's more efficient to have the cd drive play back the audio instead of getting the computer's cpu to handle it
13:25:36 <Pinkbeast> But that is ~ 1/1000 of the capacity of a PCI bus. :-)
13:26:09 <peter1138> Pinkbeast, pci has latency, and it can't do multiple things concurrently
13:26:16 <drac_boy> peter1138 point is you complain about memory use, etc when I'm pointing out that it only needs a 8mhz cpu with no memory to be able to play the audio....meaning pci/etc does not matter
13:26:29 <Pikka> you don't have vehicles in 1890 without newgrfs, after all :)
13:26:45 <Pinkbeast> drac: But I think peter's contention is that the overheads associated with sending it through the machine's CPU is high
13:26:59 <drac_boy> andythenorth yeah you'll have to start at 1950+ to get any of the original vehicles I think
13:27:17 <Lappro> btw, does anyone have an estimate what a Raspberry Pi 2nd rev. (512MB ram) could run as a dedicated openttd server?
13:27:42 <drac_boy> Lappro for a headless server I don't see why it wouldn't work ... providing you don't use super-big maps perhaps
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13:28:04 <Lappro> but what is the max capacity? how many users will it accept simulateously?
13:28:23 <drac_boy> Lappro theres too many factors but one of the few major ones is the size of the map to populate
13:28:33 <andythenorth> herp, paper mill could produce paper instead of goods
13:28:36 <drac_boy> number of players does not matter btw
13:29:00 <Lappro> oh ok thx for the info
13:29:16 <drac_boy> andythenorth it depends .. "simple" is forest>papermill>town .. "advanced" is forest>papermill>printer>town
13:29:20 <Lappro> ill test it with different sizes then (when it is finished compiling)
13:29:42 <drac_boy> the printer thing ironically exists in default arctic climate atm as far as I recall
13:30:02 <Pinkbeast> Printers in Simutrans which makes for a complicated chain with printer's ink and all
13:30:09 <andythenorth> given that I'm making a FIRS Arctic Basic
13:30:18 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast really? I never noticed that .. which pak did it come from?
13:30:19 <peter1138> andythenorth, you want more than 32 cargo types really, don't you?
13:30:19 <andythenorth> which is supposed to reflect standard Arctic
13:30:26 <andythenorth> peter1138: no actually :)
13:30:33 <andythenorth> do you have some spare though?
13:30:52 <drac_boy> 32 cargos seem a bit heavy to me :P
13:31:01 <drac_boy> but meh at least a player does not have to use all of them ;)
13:31:03 <Pinkbeast> Normal pak64's got printers (along with a demented selection of locomotives)
13:31:16 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast ah .. hm I've never used pak64....yet
13:31:21 <andythenorth> the basic FIRS economies have <20 cargos inc. PAX and mail
13:31:44 <peter1138> hmm, where to take clay
13:32:02 <plkiller> i have a problem with getting onto my friends server it says "network-game connection lost" almos at (1,7mb of 1.8mb) the end of downloading the map, if i try to connect to other other server with bigger map it loads faster and i connect without problem. i could connect when the map had 1.2mb in begining of the gameworld. do you guys have any solution?
13:32:08 <andythenorth> brick works if you have it
13:32:21 <drac_boy> andythenorth that reminds me...
13:32:35 <peter1138> ooh got a cement plant next to a station
13:32:41 <drac_boy> why do we have "brick works" rather than eg "bricks work" or "bricks works" .. or is it just something to do with english semastics?
13:32:55 <plkiller> so guys could you help me?
13:33:23 <drac_boy> plkiller you'll have to ask your friend to change his server host settings..thats all
13:33:31 <drac_boy> nothing that can be done on your side .. except for ping times
13:33:48 <plkiller> how do you change those?
13:33:59 <peter1138> andythenorth, bah, ISR doesn't have FIRS specific stations ;(
13:34:00 <plkiller> is it in openttd.cfg?
13:34:18 <andythenorth> peter1138: CHIPS does, but it's a bit fucked, and I don't know how to fix it :)
13:34:43 <peter1138> i only plain tiles in CHIPS
13:34:59 <andythenorth> they'll show cargo if it's present
13:35:05 <andythenorth> whatever there's most of
13:35:14 <peter1138> fix it to not misuse temp variables
13:35:35 <andythenorth> I should tell yexo :)
13:36:23 <plkiller> hey can someone try to connect to my server?
13:36:59 <andythenorth> Pikka: you should do a station set o_O
13:37:28 <andythenorth> oh yes you should
13:37:30 <Pikka> I made one station for pineapple, and then decided not to make any more
13:37:38 <peter1138> andythenorth, is the source open?
13:37:43 <plkiller> can someone try to connect to a server called "testing connection"?
13:37:45 <andythenorth> peter1138: CHIPS?
13:39:09 <plkiller> did it download fast?
13:39:48 <plkiller> because if my friend try to join it loads 1mb/min
13:40:50 <drac_boy> need to go for a while anyhow
13:41:07 <andythenorth> CHIPS is nearly 2
13:41:18 <andythenorth> it's like the 3rd child I don't have :P
13:41:28 <andythenorth> it arrived in between the two I do have :P
13:43:44 <peter1138> cement plant is animating :D
13:44:13 <peter1138> 300hp/510t train stuck going over a bridge :S
13:44:28 <peter1138> maybe i should've put a bit more on it
13:45:14 <plkiller> i need to check something is there a command for money?
13:45:36 <Pinkbeast> It's in the cheats menu
13:45:46 <plkiller> how do i get there ;P
13:46:30 <andythenorth> that kiln animation was painful to do :P
13:46:34 <andythenorth> should have rendered it
13:46:43 <andythenorth> I had to count tedious pixels
13:46:45 <Pinkbeast> I daresay there is some sort of web searching facility that will tell you what the keybinding is
13:49:14 <andythenorth> paper is an existing cargo so that's ok. But is it ok for industries to have different outputs in different FIRS economies?
13:49:30 <Pinkbeast> peter: send up a banking engine to get it across. :-)
13:51:59 <Pinkbeast> andy: I wouldn't complain, so sample size of one says, sure!
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13:58:09 * andythenorth drops the sawmill
13:58:21 <andythenorth> I should start a channel for my monologues
13:58:29 <andythenorth> so should drac_boy
14:01:31 <Alberth> I hope the mill missed your foot
14:01:48 <andythenorth> yes, but it didn't survive the fall
14:02:24 <andythenorth> if I break FIRS savegames, that's a minor version bump?
14:02:50 <andythenorth> I think semver says that's a major version, but meh
14:03:19 <Alberth> I don't see breaking of NewGRF as a problem; you're not supposed to change the NewGRFs anyway
14:04:26 <andythenorth> just wondering when to go to 0.9.0 instead of 0.8.x
14:05:42 <Alberth> you control the meaning of a 0.x.0 change :)
14:07:10 * andythenorth wonders if Arctic should export fish
14:08:43 <Alberth> it can export "scientific results" :p
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14:13:43 <andythenorth> revised FIRS Arctic Basic: 17 cargos, 18 industries (4 of them black holes in towns)
14:13:56 <Flygon> Alberth: You're one step closer to banning OpenTTD from Australia :p
14:15:26 <Flygon> The Govt tends to go crazy over things such as graffiti being created by the gamer in video games
14:15:44 <Flygon> Encouraging whaling could lead to another kneejerk response :p
14:16:25 <Alberth> oh, I meant real scientific results, about the weather and the climate and such
14:16:45 <Alberth> in particular, I did NOT mean japanese science :)
14:17:24 <Alberth> bad making graffiti in the game sounds like a good addition :p
14:17:35 <Kjetil> It can export documentaries about a loon sailing around in the artic disabling ships and other crimes
14:18:00 <Alberth> or expeditions to the real south pole :)
14:18:39 <Alberth> and if you wait a while, you can also have expeditions to the north pole :)
14:19:13 <Alberth> although quite likely, the world will have some other problems when that happens :)
14:19:21 <andythenorth> 'scientific supplies'
14:19:32 <andythenorth> I had 'survey supplies' in the original FIRS plan o_O
14:19:39 <andythenorth> would need a GS to make it interesting though
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14:53:31 <bolli> I've just got a quick coding question....
14:54:02 <bolli> Is it possible to choose which sprite based on what cargo a vehicle carries?
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14:55:20 <andythenorth> do you have any complicated cases you want to handle, or just simple cargo->sprites?
14:55:52 <andythenorth> complicated => things like sprites for different dates etc ;)
14:55:54 <bolli> So vehicles show vehicles on the wagon, Steel shows steel etc
14:56:11 <bolli> No, I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible :P
14:56:18 <andythenorth> you'll need a cargo translation table. ot one?
14:56:54 <bolli> Is that the cargotable{ } ?
14:57:14 <bolli> ok, yep, got one of those :)
14:57:29 * andythenorth wonders what action 3 is in nml :P
14:58:53 <Stimrol> I am running a server with very hard setup, I am thinking of adding weight multiplayer for Pikka 's UKRS2 newgrf. What is recommended settings, I now have slope steepness set to 10% and no weight multiplier
14:59:15 <andythenorth> graphics {} block
14:59:45 <andythenorth> cargo_identifier: spritegroup;
14:59:47 <Pinkbeast> Stimrol: I find 3x is about right - certainly no more with the very early locomotives
15:00:03 <bolli> I missed that reading through it... :)
15:00:13 <Pinkbeast> And don't try and move cargo with the Planet or Crampton unless it's downhill :-/
15:00:43 <Stimrol> pink and is that okay with 10% slope
15:00:52 <Alberth> Stimrol: there are no globally agreed recommended settings, it depends on what you like
15:01:30 <Pikka> personally I play with 5x and 3%
15:01:49 <Pinkbeast> 10% is extremely high
15:02:05 <Stimrol> Alberth, yes I know, it is just if I will overkill it with highest slope and then adding multiplier also
15:02:13 <Alberth> Pinkbeast: I guess that's why it is called 'hard setup' :)
15:02:15 <andythenorth> bolli: if you ever need anything more complicated, use a switch and check vars like cargo_type_in_veh, cargo_classes, or cargo_subtype
15:03:08 <Alberth> Stimrol: that depends also on the set of vehicles that you use, the best approach is to try it in a test game
15:03:22 <Pinkbeast> I think weight multiplier is a better approach than an aggressive slope setting - slope setting makes no difference to accelerating trains on the flat, obviously.
15:04:05 <Alberth> Pinkbeast: they serve different needs; high slope setting makes you desperately avoid slopes
15:04:14 <Pinkbeast> Alberth: obviously yes
15:04:16 <Stimrol> using ukrs, and yes true it only slows them down and make players have to think about TE
15:04:27 <andythenorth> weight multiplier will kill you with UKRS 2
15:04:45 <andythenorth> it makes it not fun
15:04:45 <Stimrol> maybe more thought for NARS :)
15:04:55 <Pinkbeast> The Long Boiler and Coppernob are OK on freight with a weight multiplier
15:05:51 <V453000> I think weight multipler is a poor decision for all train sets, perhaps except japan
15:06:21 <V453000> but you usually dont play japan to have a cargo game
15:06:24 <Stimrol> Could maybe be fun to try the authors setting 5x and 3%, but 3% is makeing the slopes much easier :)
15:07:10 <Stimrol> I am trying a setup with fund only for industries V453000
15:07:15 <Pikka> higher weight multiplier gives you more differentiation between locomotives on the flat, too
15:07:39 <V453000> it does, but you can brutally abuse things on downhill
15:07:55 <V453000> which is nice but imo should stay within some boundaries
15:07:57 <andythenorth> I need all my trains at top speed for cargo coal :P
15:08:26 <Pikka> just need more/longer trains, andy :P
15:08:30 <Pinkbeast> V453: I disagree - for example in UKRS1 if you don't have a weight multiplier there's little incentive to use the 0-8-0 freight over the 0-6-0 because in practice even the 0-6-0 can whisk coal trains about
15:08:59 <andythenorth> fewer shorter trains is a good strategy for cargo goal
15:09:11 * Pinkbeast hops on a vehicle with an 1-1-0 wheel arrangement and zooms off, anyway, see you all later
15:09:15 <Stimrol> V453000, what is it the weight multiplier going to change on downhill?
15:09:23 <andythenorth> but more, shorter trains means you have to dick around with escape depots or queing tracks or n-tile stations
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15:09:37 <V453000> for full trains? Trains will accelerate like instantly on downhill ofc
15:09:53 <Pikka> where's the server at? :)
15:09:56 <V453000> weight multiplier just creates a stupidly high differenece between full and empty trains imo
15:10:07 <Stimrol> that is nice factor, that you could have little troube also on downhill
15:10:38 <Stimrol> Pikka andy's or mine?
15:10:51 <V453000> honestly UKRS1 with any multiplier is really poor as it makes engines like the modern steamrers or GEC91 basically useless, the AL10 becomes the only considerable option
15:12:09 <andythenorth> maybe time for an MP cargo game?
15:12:13 <andythenorth> I can only play in the evenings
15:12:20 <andythenorth> and only then if my ADSL holds up :P
15:12:24 <Stimrol> multiplier is HP and slope is TE
15:14:05 <Stimrol> This is a nice pointers I got, and I will probably have to tweak it a little in the beginning
15:15:55 *** drac_boy has joined #openttd
15:16:24 <Stimrol> thanks for the help, now I know a bit more about the weight multiplier, because I never tried it out, because there is a lot between 2-255 in the setup :)
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15:23:42 <andythenorth> RVs are so fricking faceted
15:23:59 <andythenorth> have to consider overtaking, station type, etc
15:24:21 * andythenorth also wonders why zeph bothers with the articulated (fifth wheel) trucks
15:24:35 <andythenorth> there are non-articulated ones which are faster + have same capacity, with none of the hassles
15:24:50 <drac_boy> problem is the axle loading :p
15:25:17 <drac_boy> thats why in real life a 18 wheel is lighter than 10 wheel in road surface sense :)
15:26:07 <andythenorth> yeah...but ottd doesn't care about that
15:26:09 <Pikka> I showed you my HOQVS plans, didn't I andy?
15:26:42 <drac_boy> andythenorth players do? :P
15:28:38 <drac_boy> anyway I had a quick question for someone...
15:29:55 <V453000> I think he is typing it
15:29:56 <drac_boy> does the callback 14B anc 14C basically mean you can have one industry that more or less can randomize its input&output at build time? (like for example one farm may output crop1 but another farm output crop2 instead even although its the same industry id basically)
15:31:08 <drac_boy> V453000 thank you for figuring that out :P
15:31:30 <peter1138> drac_boy, basically, yes
15:31:55 <andythenorth> Pikka: they had no Q in previously? o_O
15:31:55 <peter1138> had implies you don't have it any more
15:32:10 <drac_boy> V453000 are you a cow?
15:33:29 <Pinkbeast> V$53: Er since the AM10's a pax EMU I don't see how weight multiplier affects its viability at all
15:33:39 <andythenorth> drac_boy: use those cbs with caution, they shaft unwary players
15:33:53 <andythenorth> there's industry in FIRS that uses it, and it shafted me :P
15:35:07 <andythenorth> IRL, all fertiliser is delivered by DC10 and 737 right?
15:35:47 * andythenorth has an idea using industry airports
15:36:14 <drac_boy> V453000 are you a dairy or beef cow tho? ;) heh heh
15:36:18 <andythenorth> Pikka: got anything that would pass for an air tractor?
15:36:37 <drac_boy> andythenorth the farm thing was only an example. I wasn't going to use it for extreme industries :)
15:36:39 <Pikka> the low-wing plane in genav8?
15:36:54 <Pikka> it's not very airtractor though
15:38:18 <V453000> Pinkbeast: AL10, not AM10
15:38:51 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast unless I've noted it wrong ... a passenger is still a weighted cargo ... so one passenger is 1/16t at a multiplier of x1, you can see how many passengers at a higher multiplier can start adding several tons to a train
15:39:26 <Pikka> cargo multiplier isn't applied to passengers afaia
15:39:44 <peter1138> passengers aren't freight
15:39:59 <drac_boy> peter1138 if its not then why is it assigned in the cargo weights?
15:40:00 <Pinkbeast> Even if it did at 35 tons of carriage to 2 1/2 tons of pax it would hardly make much difference at typical multiplier settings
15:40:23 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast well I've noted otherwise with low-power carriages but might be just my experience tho
15:40:47 <peter1138> drac_boy, well how many people do you know weigh 0kg?
15:40:49 <Pinkbeast> drac: I think it's your imagination - I don't think pax weight is multiplied up at all
15:41:23 <drac_boy> pinkbeast or it means the weight multiplier is excluded from at least one cargo class
15:41:40 <peter1138> the multiplier is explicitly for freight
15:41:41 <drac_boy> either way I've had enough problem with these smaller railcars that barely can climb on low settings alone
15:42:33 <Pinkbeast> V453: the AL1? I think that's more to do with OTTD (absent NuTracks and friends) not representing the costs of electrification
15:42:43 <peter1138> if (!CargoSpec::Get(cargo)->is_freight) return 1;
15:42:46 <andythenorth> has someone fucked up their cargo newgrf and set the weight multiplier on PAX? o_O
15:42:48 <peter1138> return _settings_game.vehicle.freight_trains;
15:43:00 <drac_boy> pinkbeast I always did wonder why certain costs are a bit out of whack .. such as airports being way too cheap to build etc
15:43:00 <andythenorth> that would break RV stops too wouldn't it? o_O
15:43:34 <drac_boy> I always run my games with basecost parameters set high for a lot of things, can't remember one time I ever disabled basecost at all
15:43:36 <Pinkbeast> Sure, if you can electrify everywhere, it doesn't make sense to build 9Fs when electric freight locomotives turn up.
15:43:58 <andythenorth> so probably drac_boy is just wrong about pax :)
15:45:18 <Pikka> he is, but I still think he's right that passengers /should/ be affected by the multiplier
15:45:55 <Pikka> there's no logical reason for the exception
15:46:05 <Pinkbeast> I disagree - the multiplier's there because freight trains are artifically short in OTTD, but passenger trains aren't
15:46:14 <drac_boy> me wonder what else could be causing a fully loaded railcar to gain another few tons if its not the industry cargo >_<
15:46:22 <andythenorth> Pinkbeast: I disagree :)
15:46:45 <peter1138> if your freight trains aren't artifically short then you shouldn't be using the multiplier
15:46:45 <drac_boy> artifically short? you don't know of the mammoth train feature ever since the patch introduced it? :)
15:47:11 <peter1138> yeah but most people don't make 20-plus-tile long trains
15:47:23 <andythenorth> but only with NARS 2 or canset
15:47:26 <Pinkbeast> The way time and distance scales make it difficult for trains to traverse junctions doesn't help there.
15:47:28 <andythenorth> it's bad form to do it with UKRS 2
15:47:51 <andythenorth> my NARS 2 trains never have 3 P42s on the front though :P
15:48:08 <andythenorth> but the freight trains will have lots of SD 40s
15:48:24 * andythenorth suspects Amtrak don't need 3 P42s on one train for power
15:48:31 <andythenorth> but because they break
15:48:36 <andythenorth> and crash into trucks a lot
15:48:55 <andythenorth> the UKRS 2 thread attracts some interestingly passive aggressive posts :)
15:49:02 <drac_boy> actually some of the long distance trains especially autotrain do have two locomotives often
15:49:06 <andythenorth> or is it just aggressive?
15:49:28 <drac_boy> but most other things are only one locomotive .. except for the push-pull trains (even then some of these are just one locomotive and one "engine-less baggage locomotive")
15:49:37 <Pikka> I have invented another curved line \o/
15:50:48 <drac_boy> andythenorth if you wanted a true freight train, go back several years ago to the CP railroad through the british columbia mountain
15:51:02 <andythenorth> drac_boy: have you been there?
15:51:16 * Pinkbeast stalks Tal's houses' thread
15:51:17 <drac_boy> 2-3 SD40 up front ... a set of 4 helper SD40 in middle ... and two helper-controlled remote SD40 on tail ...!
15:51:32 <andythenorth> drac_boy: I was in the Rockies for 3 months in 1998
15:51:38 <andythenorth> game set and match to me I think
15:51:50 <bolli> No closing our pubs Pikka!
15:51:50 <Pinkbeast> If I wanted a true freight train I'd go to Peterborough (ugh!) and watch the ECML, that doesn't need any time machines
15:52:05 <andythenorth> I want a false freight train
15:52:06 <bolli> They're already managing well enough on their own :(
15:52:10 <drac_boy> andythenorth sadly I've only been to victoria twice .. and Squash (right name?) once ... everything else has been from articles written by now-retired engineers themself etc
15:52:28 <Pinkbeast> Wouldn't a lot of empty hoppers be a false freight train?
15:53:01 <andythenorth> Pikka: the self-destroying building thing - burn out a car :P
15:53:12 <andythenorth> leave it for 1 month
15:53:21 <andythenorth> or have picniccers :P
15:53:36 <andythenorth> depending on the social state of the town o_O
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15:55:11 <andythenorth> also, do your pubs accept alcohol? o_O
15:56:14 <andythenorth> do you have a bottle shop in TaI?
15:57:21 <Pikka> there's two pubs, the country one and the town one, I could make them accept alcohol if it's defined...
15:59:24 <peter1138> that's calling for a hopper unloader
15:59:49 <drac_boy> andythenorth and Pikka do you two think that food producing industries should still be placed inside a town rather than out in the country? brewery, bakery, whatever
16:02:06 <Kjetil> industrial size bakeries and breweries do not need to be placed inside a town. Allthough most industry is
16:02:36 <Stimrol> Pikka this was the longest train I have seen in my life
16:02:46 <drac_boy> Kjetil mm good suggestion
16:03:02 <drac_boy> guess I could think about a 2x2 or bigger sized food factory of some sort
16:05:25 <Pikka> andythenorth, are there any other cargos you'd like town buildings to accept while I'm at it?
16:06:46 <bolli> For commercial buildings...
16:07:18 <andythenorth> Pikka: all up to you, FIRS has these covered with black hole industries...but:
16:07:29 <andythenorth> goods, alcohol, food, petrol
16:07:38 <andythenorth> and for bizarre, player-induced reasons, fruit :|
16:07:51 <Pikka> well, they all accept goods and food already...
16:08:03 <Pikka> petrol I'm not sure about since I have my own black hole for that
16:08:21 <oskari892> Andythenorth: Do you have both Sawmill and Paper factory in Arctic FIRS?
16:08:50 <oskari892> It would be nice, at least here in Finland there is both on IRL economy
16:08:57 <andythenorth> there's also building materials, and probably will be cars
16:09:28 <andythenorth> oskari892: I'm removing Sawmill from Arctic Basic
16:09:31 <andythenorth> for game balance reasons
16:09:49 <oskari892> Ok, is it in something other Arctic version?
16:10:08 <andythenorth> it's in main 'FIRS' economy
16:10:10 * peter1138 checks bananas for tai updates :p
16:10:24 <andythenorth> and DanMacK wants to do a Canadian economy, which probably doubles for most of sub-arctic
16:11:01 <oskari892> Andythenorth: Have you seen DanMacK lately?
16:11:08 <andythenorth> not for a few weeks
16:11:11 <andythenorth> he's taking a break
16:11:36 <oskari892> He'll be back in a few weeks or so?
16:12:01 <peter1138> i thought oztrans had a monopoly on canadian things ;p
16:13:51 <drac_boy> canadian industries .. that would so have to include grain BIG time :P
16:14:06 <drac_boy> and a bit of potatos for the sake of the eastern proviences :)
16:14:13 <oskari892> He planned Finnish economy too
16:14:20 <drac_boy> or lumbers (although that already exists) for west canada
16:14:27 <andythenorth> vegetables are a bit lacking in FIRS
16:14:33 <Pikka> you can have one soon if you want to test it :)
16:14:42 <chester_> men, is it possible to only recompile 1 header and keep every other header precompiled, then compile everything?
16:14:44 <andythenorth> green stuff is bad
16:14:50 <andythenorth> is TaI savegame compatible?
16:15:02 <oskari892> Potatos here too, and peat :)
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16:15:11 <andythenorth> is TaI beta 0.3 compatible?
16:15:30 <peter1138> i'd have to start a new game
16:15:33 <peter1138> but tai is worth it
16:15:40 <bolli> Out of asking, What does 1.3 break?
16:15:48 * andythenorth should fix this arctic economy before a new game
16:15:58 <Kjetil> how about garbage disposal ?
16:15:59 <andythenorth> but first I have to beat frosch's Silicon Valley script
16:16:02 <Pikka> it will probably work, but you won't get the full effect of the set if you're applying it to an already existing game
16:16:14 <peter1138> i'm only 6 years into this one, heh
16:16:17 <andythenorth> garbage disposal is the most boring industry chain ever
16:16:27 <peter1138> bolli, nothing in theory
16:16:32 <Kjetil> andythenorth: unless you are the mob in napoli ? :P
16:16:35 <peter1138> bolli, but that's why you get to test it
16:17:57 <bolli> What I actually meant, what from 1.2 will work with 1.3 and what wont- i.e. NewGRFs, scenarios
16:19:07 <bolli> I was worried that I'd have to go through my set of multiplayer scenarios and change them...
16:19:37 <Kjetil> andythenorth: is it still boring if you add recycling?
16:20:59 <Pikka> do you want the industries too, peter1138? I don't think they're broken at the moment.
16:21:29 <Pikka> I haven't started breaking them yet :)
16:23:12 <Pikka> pub-be-gone seems to work, I guess I'll release a version or something. or should I quickly put the rookeries in first?
16:24:22 <andythenorth> rabbit warrens too?
16:24:33 <andythenorth> and a trout lake?
16:24:48 <andythenorth> Kjetil: recycling exists in FIRS
16:24:58 <andythenorth> Pikka: can I haz industries?
16:25:01 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
16:25:04 <Pikka> castles might be good, as newobjects or something :)
16:25:15 <andythenorth> it would be nice to play an industry set, and report bugs to Other People
16:25:17 <Kjetil> andythenorth: hippie! :P
16:25:19 <Pikka> I'm actually not sure if much has changed in the industries since the last release, but sure
16:25:20 <andythenorth> instead of having to fix my own
16:25:34 <Pikka> I haven't done anything with the 19th c industries yet
16:25:40 <drac_boy> andythenorth heh well feel free to check mine out...in a month or two? ;)
16:25:58 <andythenorth> wow, you have a 0.1 nearly ready to go?
16:26:14 <andythenorth> where's your repo? o_O
16:26:38 <drac_boy> its only sprites and some newgrf wiki notes now :p
16:28:19 <drac_boy> might ask about a tt-forum website when I think I have enough to share pre-grf but we'll see about that tho
16:28:53 <andythenorth> me and Foobar estimated 1 year to get FIRS to a playable state ;)
16:28:59 <andythenorth> we were off by 100%
16:29:15 <drac_boy> heh well thats mainly because of trying to put so many things into it? :)
16:29:24 <andythenorth> with more than 2 people contributing, neither had kids or final year degree projects ;)
16:32:44 <Pikka> 10..14 Third cargo type
16:32:52 <Pikka> surely those bit ranges are wrong :D
16:33:50 <Pikka> surely it's just the first 3 bytes?
16:35:28 <peter1138> do we have 3-byte callback results?
16:35:55 * drac_boy needs some non-usa tippler wagon photos -__
16:35:56 <Pikka> it's a 4 byte and the highest byte is ignored
16:35:58 <peter1138> (good luck returning cargo types >= 32)
16:36:02 <Pikka> if it's the same format as the property
16:36:36 <peter1138> callback results are still limit to 15 bits iirc
16:36:58 <Pikka> okay, I guess it makes sense then
16:37:20 <Pikka> makes it a bit of an unreadable mess though :) I guess it's not unique among callbacks in that respect
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16:41:13 <Pikka> of course callbacks are limited to 15 bits
16:41:41 <peter1138> i think there was talking about making them 32 bit (or some such) as some point
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16:51:55 <drac_boy> mmm 17 wagon ids used and I haven't even gotten to any open top or special covered top ones yet
16:52:27 <peter1138> that's okay, you've got 65535 in total
16:52:53 <drac_boy> more like 0 to 115 actually :)
16:53:35 <andythenorth> Pikka: did you lose interest in pineapple, or lack of time?
16:53:56 <drac_boy> andythenorth ask him where the sea air ports are? :)
16:53:59 <Pikka> if I remade it it wouldn't be all-in-one
16:54:22 <peter1138> drac_boy, nah, nobody uses ttdpatch
16:55:33 <Pikka> nobody we care about uses ttdpatch, he means :)
16:57:34 <drac_boy> pikka then they're missing out on some nice networks ;)
16:58:08 <drac_boy> I meant to ask you pikka...why are the seaplanes included in av8 even although they can't be used?
17:04:29 <drac_boy> I should go find something to eat so I'm going now heh
17:11:30 <Pikka> hmm andy, that will confuse people
17:12:04 <Pikka> my petrol stations are chibi versions of your petrol stations, but don't accept petrol :) I suppose I should make it so they do... or so that they don't appear if FIRS is loaded.
17:18:54 <andythenorth> one or the other :)
17:19:03 <andythenorth> you've been watching waybalu?
17:21:25 <Pikka> petrol stations now accept 4/8 petr if defined, pubs now accept 4/8 beer if defined
17:22:10 <Pikka> rookery can wait, I'll up the grf
17:23:30 *** ZxBiohazardZx has joined #openttd
17:23:42 <Pikka> the industry grf is version 6
17:23:55 <ZxBiohazardZx> out of curiosity: why is there the magic number 13 in bridge.h MAX_BRIDGES
17:23:56 <Pikka> how much am I going to have to fix if I bump it to 7?
17:23:59 <ZxBiohazardZx> static const uint MAX_BRIDGES = 13; ///< Maximal number of available bridge specs.
17:24:16 <planetmaker> not too much, Pikka. But... better got for v8 straight away
17:24:32 <Pikka> yeah, that's what I meant :)
17:24:32 <ZxBiohazardZx> why is it 13 and not anything else
17:24:41 <Pikka> because that was the number of bridges in TTD
17:24:59 <planetmaker> TTD had 11 bridges
17:25:25 <Pikka> yes, openttd added two new tubular one
17:25:29 <planetmaker> the two additional tube bridges are openttd
17:25:33 <Pikka> because that was the number in openttd, then :)
17:26:30 <Pikka> I remember bumping UKRS2 and the whole thing fell in a heap
17:27:06 <Pikka> oh, undefined strings ahoy
17:27:23 <planetmaker> Pikka, of course you'll need to do some conversion... e.g. look at callbacks and their size
17:28:26 <MNIM> So, let me get this straight.
17:28:26 <peter1138> hmm chips won't compile :p
17:28:37 <MNIM> this bridge limit has not been changed because...
17:28:42 <andythenorth> -Whistling tunes we hid in the dunes by the seaside
17:28:46 <Pikka> because you haven't changed it yet
17:28:49 <andythenorth> Whistling tunes we're kissing baboons in the jungle
17:28:53 <planetmaker> MNIM, because noone implented proper NewGRF bridges
17:28:58 <peter1138> MNIM, it's never been made dynamic
17:29:15 * MNIM can guess those reasons. :P
17:30:01 <andythenorth> peter1138: any compile error?
17:30:01 <ZxBiohazardZx> so there is no actual other reason then "we just dont have more"
17:30:13 <andythenorth> it's only nfo + C pre-processor
17:30:56 <peter1138> Processing file "chips.nfo".
17:30:56 <peter1138> Error on sprite 342.
17:31:09 * bolli goes to complete the theory of "If you can't work it out yourself, find an open source project to use as an example"
17:31:09 <peter1138> . //!!Error (227): Offset 31: Unknown data does not allow processesing past this point.
17:31:13 <peter1138> . //!!Fatal Error (64): Expected more data for prop 1A. (1 bytes at 119.)
17:32:29 <andythenorth> peter1138: clean r222 compiles for me :|
17:32:29 <peter1138> i don't see anything wrong with it mind you
17:32:52 <andythenorth> GRFCodec trunk r944
17:33:01 <peter1138> clean works, so... my fault :p
17:36:55 <peter1138> now it compiles but doesn't work :D
17:37:27 <andythenorth> that sounds more like my usual experience ;)
17:38:15 <ZxBiohazardZx> from a n00b point of view, would just changing it from static const to static not do the tric?
17:40:45 <Pikka> new TaI houses and industries are on a banana, peter1138 and andythenorth
17:41:18 <ZxBiohazardZx> ow great Pikka, that animated image looked great!
17:46:20 <andythenorth> why 'check online content'
17:46:26 <andythenorth> instead of 'get online content' or something?
17:46:36 <andythenorth> or just 'content download'
17:47:28 <andythenorth> 'send me the codez'
17:47:56 <ZxBiohazardZx> gief me all your monejz
17:48:05 <Pikka> whoops, petrol stations appear to accept plastic instead of mail. Oh well. :)
17:48:26 <planetmaker> it's the future. It's plastic. It's fantastic
17:48:39 <ZxBiohazardZx> its fuel containers
17:48:46 <ZxBiohazardZx> in the future your car will drive on plastics?
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17:59:26 <andythenorth> now /me can steal pikka's industry ideas :x
17:59:42 <Pikka> there's nothing in there that wasn't in PBI :P
18:02:02 <Pikka> when I do get around to updating it, I'm going to dump the entire TTD primary production system and code my own in the grf >_>
18:02:28 <Pikka> cue cries of "that's what gamescripts are for"
18:02:44 <andythenorth> that's what newgrf is for ;)
18:03:29 <andythenorth> what will you do?
18:04:21 <Pikka> reduce production for the 19th century
18:04:42 <Pikka> have a more refined form of the "estimated resources"
18:04:49 <Pikka> do something interesting with farms
18:06:15 <andythenorth> seasonal production? :P
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18:06:44 <Pikka> *maybe* give industries a crude internal "economy" for the purposes of production increase/decrease/shutdown
18:06:54 <andythenorth> changing production according to epoch might be an idea worth stealing
18:06:55 <Pikka> seasonal production would probably be annoying
18:07:02 <andythenorth> +lots to annoying :)
18:08:27 <Alberth> sounds more like a disaster :)
18:09:56 <peter1138> == no more broken sprites
18:10:39 <peter1138> might not be right but as there's nothing in there to set a register then it shouldn't be reading them either
18:15:35 *** oskari892 has joined #openttd
18:15:37 <andythenorth> will test after bath time
18:20:52 <Stimrol> Pikka, I would not find this tal buildings ingame by searching "tal" had to type "pikka" or "houses" just so you know
18:21:17 <Pikka> that's because it's an I, not an l :)
18:23:06 <peter1138> i'm guessing TaI industries isn't going to work well with FIRS?
18:25:04 <Stimrol> and also me because I am sound blind, thought it was Tall :D
18:29:37 <Pikka> do any industry sets work well together?
18:29:59 <peter1138> especially as firs has like 5678493 industries
18:31:44 <Kjetil> more industrious than a hooker on crack ?
18:33:01 <Alberth> most hookers on crack don't own any industry :p
18:39:25 <andythenorth> peter1138: you have a bigger FIRS than me :O
18:39:42 <andythenorth> do you have a secret patch to increase number of industries o_O
18:40:35 * SpComb has yet to play a FIRS game with more than one of each industry
18:40:47 <SpComb> it would need a 512x512 map or so :)
18:41:02 <peter1138> i'm using 512x512, but with loads of water and very low towns
18:41:12 <SpComb> 256x256 would get crowded with more than one of each
18:41:29 <andythenorth> iirc, 256x256 can't even build 1 of each
18:41:36 <peter1138> damn, chips stations don't draw passengers :p
18:42:20 <andythenorth> I am misanthropic
18:42:29 <andythenorth> I don't want to see more people than I have to, even in pixel form
18:42:58 <andythenorth> on 256x256 with 'normal industry' map gen setting, you should get ~1 of each FIRS industry
18:43:07 <andythenorth> 55 is about right
18:43:18 <andythenorth> on low or very low, broken chains everywhere
18:43:27 <andythenorth> also applies to any smaller map
18:43:37 <SpComb> hmm, I play with low industries, and no broken chains, I think
18:43:44 <V453000> would be wise to always force at least 1 of each to spawn at start
18:43:48 <SpComb> except sugar cane plantation thingie produces nothing
18:43:51 <andythenorth> it might be doing the 'build at least one thing'
18:43:59 <andythenorth> SpComb: sounds like a bug, which FIRS version?
18:45:17 <andythenorth> temperate and / or arctic climates, right?
18:45:36 <andythenorth> that industry shouldn't even be available to you :)
18:45:40 <andythenorth> that's one of the bugs
18:45:42 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24867 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2012-12-28 18:45:30 UTC)
18:45:43 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:44 <DorpsGek> belarusian - 40 changes by KorneySan
18:45:45 <DorpsGek> greek - 9 changes by Evropi
18:45:46 <DorpsGek> indonesian - 51 changes by fanioz
18:45:47 <DorpsGek> polish - 29 changes by wojteks86
18:45:48 <DorpsGek> russian - 2 changes by KorneySan
18:46:32 * andythenorth will fix that :P
18:46:42 <andythenorth> lots of 0.8.x trivial versions :|
18:46:51 <peter1138> is it possible to convert implicit orders to real orders?
19:16:08 <andythenorth> meh, I should make FIRS code explicitly enable industries instead of explicitly disable :P
19:18:52 *** eQualizer has joined #openttd
19:21:56 <andythenorth> peter1138: CHIPS fix appears to work :)
19:23:11 *** Emmy-Eviltwin has joined #openttd
19:29:09 <andythenorth> have some bananas and chips
19:33:47 <andythenorth> finally, I have a project with no open issues :o
19:36:52 *** LordPixaII has joined #openttd
19:50:37 * andythenorth breaks FIRS 0.8.2 savegames :P
19:51:20 <andythenorth> Terkhen: a FIRS string changed, if you want to update translations?
19:51:23 <andythenorth> also planetmaker ^
19:51:47 <andythenorth> I'm going to tag and release any time tonight, can wait if you want to commit lang updates ;)
19:52:00 * Kjetil ponders how planetmaker's bowels works.. him being a planet maker and all
19:52:27 * andythenorth never ponders that kind of thing
19:53:27 <peter1138> he looks pretty normal though, if you ask me
20:10:32 <Terkhen> andythenorth: can you point me to the specific string? I don't have much time to commit it myself today
20:15:31 *** oskari89 has joined #openttd
20:19:36 <andythenorth> Terkhen: pull and search SUGAR_PLANTATION in the lang file
20:19:51 <andythenorth> change is 'Sugarcane Plantation' -> 'Sugar Plantation'
20:20:35 <andythenorth> STR_FUND_SUGAR_PLANTATION probably needs no change, just the identifier changed
20:24:10 <peter1138> FS#5413 - Crash on Applying NewGRF Changes
20:24:34 <andythenorth> Terkhen: thanks :)
20:24:47 <peter1138> although i assumed mid-game, heh
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20:58:28 <planetmaker> hm, the FIRS german translation needs more than a quick update :-)
21:03:53 <andythenorth> you were away ;)
21:12:18 <peter1138> hmm, when was basque added
21:15:24 <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r24868 /trunk/projects (4 files) (2012-12-28 21:15:19 UTC)
21:15:25 <DorpsGek> -Fix (r24797): Update VS projects to include Basque translation.
21:36:30 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r24869 /trunk/src/lang (11 files in 2 dirs) (2012-12-28 21:36:24 UTC)
21:36:31 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5411]: Unify the way maglev is written
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21:45:07 <murr4y> can you get messages when trains get lost but not when getting older?
21:45:40 *** Rhamphoryncus_ has quit IRC
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21:51:48 <andythenorth> is flying grain around wrong?
21:51:53 <andythenorth> even for a cargo goal GS?
21:55:56 <planetmaker> should it be wrong?
21:56:16 <andythenorth> I might need to do it
21:56:22 <andythenorth> to get silver even
21:57:45 <peter1138> that you need either masses of them, or huge ones
21:58:28 <peter1138> i'm guessing lots of small ones is better to provide a steadier supply of cargo
22:01:21 <peter1138> so we need an inccentive
22:01:39 <peter1138> like not allowing more than 1 ship at a dock
22:01:49 <andythenorth> that would ruin my game :)
22:01:58 <peter1138> and then multi-stop docks
22:02:45 <peter1138> gah, my single coal mine is providing too much coal
22:03:03 <andythenorth> quadruple boost?
22:03:05 <peter1138> so the steel mill stops accepting it
22:03:22 <peter1138> well, TAI industries now ;p
22:03:39 <SpComb> when the secondary idustries stopped accepting
22:05:00 <andythenorth> road vehicle limit :(
22:05:29 <SpComb> but I don't really get the dbsetxl cargo trains around 1940-50
22:05:45 <SpComb> I guess you're supposed to electrify everything by then
22:15:01 <SpComb> last game I just stopped playing once the BR75 expired, never upgraded, pretty lame
22:21:39 *** drac_boy has joined #openttd
22:39:20 <peter1138> shame that roadstops are called roadstops :S
22:39:52 <drac_boy> sounds like a bit odd name to me too :/
22:47:09 <drac_boy> anyone here think that "carrying axles" in a locomotive classification would meant unpowered axles for certain?
22:49:49 <michi_cc> SpComb: It's called WWII.
23:02:37 <drac_boy> oh geeze... 550psi boiler on a metre gauge locomotive
23:02:42 * drac_boy must find more to read
23:05:48 *** orudge` is now known as orudge
23:11:47 <andythenorth> the commuter airport is rather better than most of the other airports
23:11:53 <andythenorth> as long as you only want small planes
23:19:20 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: is there an actual reason for that limit?
23:27:06 <peter1138> not really, it's a 16 bit value
23:27:35 <peter1138> and who can forget the fun of minor versions
23:29:15 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea, when i came along that already said "do not use!"
23:29:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i once suggested to use those for patched builds, but nobody caught onto that idea
23:30:28 <andythenorth> too many vehicles in game :P
23:35:04 <oskari89> Is there currently a limit for ID's of rail vehicles?
23:37:08 <peter1138> (that's not multiple stations)
23:37:15 <andythenorth> that would definitely screw my current game :)
23:37:48 <peter1138> it screws any game at the moment as there's no code to select a destination
23:37:53 <peter1138> to the ship tries to go to st->xy
23:37:58 <peter1138> which... aint gonna work
23:38:23 <Eddi|zuHause> oskari89: if you use grf version 8, 64k vehicle-ids, and 16k in the articulation callback
23:40:35 <peter1138> andythenorth, and it doesn't necessarily mean that ships can't use the same dock concurrently
23:42:28 <Eddi|zuHause> # IHR SEID SO LEISE
23:54:10 * andythenorth forgot to go to sleep
continue to next day ⏵
