IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-12-27
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00:32:01 <ccfreak2k> <__ln__> how totally wrong is it to express e.g. 18:00 in english as "at eighteen oh-oh"?
00:32:07 <ccfreak2k> no one I have ever met would say that.
00:32:39 <ccfreak2k> From a grammatical standpoint, it's a mixed pronunciation.
00:38:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i've had a "talking clock" once, which annunced :00 as "hundred"
00:39:50 <Eddi|zuHause> which i presume is commonly used in military context
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00:41:25 <Eddi|zuHause> whether an english person would use 24h clock is a different topic which i as a foreign person can't judge ;)
00:42:02 <drac_boy> heh I often use 24hr too .. its too easy to confuse am vs pm anyway :)
00:42:09 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, the time as written there would be spoken as "one-eight-hundred" then
00:43:35 <Supercheese> thought it would be "eighteen hundred"...
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00:46:14 <Eddi|zuHause> could be as well
00:46:43 <Supercheese> "one eight hundred" sounds like a television commercial/advert :P
00:49:50 <Eddi|zuHause> oh-one-one-eight nine-nine-nine eight-eight-one-nine-nine nine-one-one-nine seven-two-five... three
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08:16:35 <__ln__> 02:32 < ccfreak2k> <__ln__> how totally wrong is it to express e.g. 18:00 in english as "at eighteen oh-oh"? 02:32 < ccfreak2k> From a grammatical standpoint, it's a mixed pronunciation. <--- it's being used in automatic announcements on finnish trains. but i bet it's not the only grammatical oddity there.
08:23:01 <Pikka> in english that would be "eighteen hundred hours" or "six o'clock". :)
08:26:19 <Ammler> well, thought, it is used in military exclusively
08:26:52 <Pikka> please clarify "used in military exclusively"
08:26:55 <Supercheese> Almost exclusively, but not quite
08:27:30 <Pikka> if you mean "it is all they use in the military", then possibly, if you mean "it's used only in the military", then no :)
08:28:06 <planetmaker> maybe travel services :-)
08:28:18 <planetmaker> is the navy not part of the military, __ln__ ?
08:29:04 <Ammler> he, I know "English" mainly from TV only :-)
08:29:26 <Pikka> YBBN 270730Z 10009KT 9999 SCT023 26/20 Q1013
08:29:31 <Ammler> and a bit from #openttd :-P
08:29:38 <Supercheese> "In Canada and the United States, the term "military time" is a synonym for the 24-hour clock. In these regions, the time of day is customarily given almost exclusively using the 12-hour clock notation, which counts the hours of the day as 12, 1, ..., 11 with suffixes "a.m." and "p.m." distinguishing the two diurnal repetitions of this sequence. The 24-hour clock is commonly used there only...
08:29:40 <Supercheese> ...in some specialist areas (military, aviation, navigation, tourism, meteorology, astronomy, computing, logistics, emergency services, hospitals), where the ambiguities of the 12-hour notation are deemed too inconvenient, cumbersome, or outright dangerous."
08:30:28 <planetmaker> "some specialist areas" (and a lengthy list follows)
08:30:50 <Ammler> sounds like English uses it more than German ;-)
08:31:07 <Supercheese> Trying to get the GIMP script to work, but no dice
08:31:12 <planetmaker> nah. Sounds like they use it just normally ;-)
08:31:37 <planetmaker> Supercheese, gimp scripts don't help with time progression ;-)
08:31:47 <planetmaker> it's what clocks are built for :-P
08:32:00 <Pikka> ah, german time.. the hilarity that ensues from "half" ;)
08:32:06 <Supercheese> But I'm wasting my time trying to make it work
08:32:42 <__ln__> btw, finnish air force used metres rather than feet for altitude for a long time, till the end of 90s or something. how unusual is that.
08:33:14 <planetmaker> Pikka, it's logical really. We don't say "half past" but just "half". So half of the 8th hour is "halb acht"
08:33:39 <Pikka> but it's not unusual for english speakers to drop the "past" ;)
08:33:50 <planetmaker> that's unlogical :D
08:34:08 <planetmaker> language generally is ;-)
08:34:29 <planetmaker> but we can extend the scheme to viertel acht, halb acht, drei-viertel acht (7:15, 7:30, 7:45)
08:34:32 <Ammler> oh, you say "half eight" and mean 8:30?
08:35:10 <__ln__> please stop saying that, it confuses the rest of the world
08:35:34 <planetmaker> yes. And make a law that pi = 3.14
08:35:43 <Supercheese> Nobody says "half eight", they say "half past eight"
08:35:49 <Ammler> planetmaker: we (only swiss?) "viertel vor acht" not "dreiviertel acht"
08:36:35 <planetmaker> Ammler, *I* do also say "viertel vor acht" and "viertel nach sieben". But it depends on where in Germany you are. Substantial areas use the time as I stated earlier
08:36:35 <Pikka> Americans don't, maybe.
08:36:43 <planetmaker> confused the hell out of me when I learnt about that :-)
08:36:56 <Supercheese> Yeah, I've never heard that here
08:37:22 <Pikka> then again americans don't say "fortnight" or "wednesday week" either :P
08:37:32 <Supercheese> Oh pffff, these Python scripts actually require you to have python installed. Who would have guessed...
08:37:50 <__ln__> wtf is "wednesday week"?
08:38:09 <Pikka> the wednesday after the next one. a week from wednesday.
08:38:49 <Pikka> you can have "wednesday fortnight" too :]
08:38:55 <planetmaker> Supercheese, gimp knows several script languages. It allows python py-gimp. But its native is the gimp-fu
08:38:59 <planetmaker> or something like that
08:39:53 <planetmaker> btw, Pikka: wrt town variable: iirc the concensus was rather to leave the global things to game scripts rather than to NewGRFs
08:40:06 <planetmaker> and that includes the map coordinates of towns
08:41:02 <planetmaker> Pikka, it should be discussed when frosch is around - which supposedly won't happen anymore this year
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08:42:02 <andythenorth> Pikka: wot no 150mph mail carriages?
08:42:13 <andythenorth> how will I get the beer to the shop fast enough?
08:42:14 <__ln__> so you expect frosch not to be around earlier than tuesday week
08:42:15 <planetmaker> super-sonic mail!
08:42:30 <planetmaker> __ln__, that's what you say :-P
08:43:21 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: no, that would be the tuesday after the next one
08:44:23 <Pikka> the point is that I wanted to make buildings have a particular appearance close to the centre of town, but I didn't want them to change as the town zones grew
08:44:27 <Pikka> it's not a big deal though :)
08:44:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: read the town zone at construction time and store it in the animation state
08:45:13 <andythenorth> hmm, close airports \o/
08:45:19 <Pikka> yeah, it's an option eddi :)
08:45:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: then only read the animation state for drawing
08:45:41 <Eddi|zuHause> (you really should have done this for the road configuration too)
08:46:04 <Pikka> that's a matter of opinion :)
08:46:51 <planetmaker> Pikka, but a building doesn't change, unless asked to change, no?
08:47:12 <planetmaker> if, of course, you depend on town zone, store it, as eddi suggests
08:47:31 <Pikka> yep, I could do that :)
08:47:42 <planetmaker> but then, the idea of town zones is that different buildings use different town zones
08:47:54 <planetmaker> imho it's a wrong use of town zones, if you need to query them
08:48:11 <planetmaker> they should only be needed to decide the building type
08:48:11 <Pikka> otoh I also wanted to use the town position for defining a "splodge" of buildings that aren't necessarily in the centre
08:48:25 <Pikka> but again, I'll do things a different way, it's not important :P
08:49:18 <Pikka> andythenorth: what locos do you have that are doing 150mph anyway?
08:49:32 <andythenorth> if we're being specific :P
08:49:40 <andythenorth> I just got class 91 available though :P
08:49:44 <Pikka> does beer go in freightliners?
08:50:08 <Supercheese> Beer goes in all the things
08:50:14 <Pikka> better put it in a plane :D
08:50:35 <Pikka> what's so urgent about this beer?
08:50:44 <Pikka> I've got beer that's been sitting around for years and it's still fine :P
08:50:45 <andythenorth> game script cargo delivery goal depends on it ;)
08:50:54 <andythenorth> speed is of the essence
08:51:06 <Pikka> you can't make up for speed with volume?
08:51:17 <andythenorth> maybe, but it's harder :P
08:51:33 <andythenorth> also....this is my fault not yours, but lots of wagons inappropriately refit to timber
08:51:44 <andythenorth> timber / lumber / translated cargo name blah
08:51:56 <andythenorth> e.g. hoppers etc
08:52:15 <andythenorth> it's because lumber is defined as a bulk cargo, because MB wants it to represent wood chips
08:52:31 <andythenorth> and there have been length discussions about it via pm, and we are where we are o_O
08:52:36 <Pikka> wood chips in a hopper :]
08:53:17 <andythenorth> but not a polybulk hopper, oddly, where they might actually be appropriate
08:54:06 <andythenorth> I think lumber should have been a different cargo, but that shepp has run away
08:54:29 <andythenorth> the flock has bolted etc
08:54:48 <Supercheese> the ship has set sail
08:54:53 * andythenorth had better go and do things that avoid wifely arguments :P
08:55:00 <andythenorth> and maintain children etc
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09:15:33 <andythenorth> how fast is that mail emu thing?
09:15:39 <andythenorth> maybe that's good for beer :P
09:18:37 <Eddi|zuHause> so sheep set sails now?
09:19:08 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: TGV Postal :)
09:20:15 <Supercheese> Blarg, bounding box issues
09:21:23 <andythenorth> TGV postal not in the UK :P
09:21:40 * andythenorth is playing by self-imposed rules as well as the GS rules ;)
09:21:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but it could go through the eurotunnel :)
09:21:53 <Supercheese> Every time I see "emu" I think the ostrich-like bird, and not Electric Multiple Unit...
09:22:11 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: this is a good point. I can add newgrfs to a running game right? :P
09:22:15 * andythenorth knows the answer to that
09:23:26 <andythenorth> so anyone played / playing a FIRS 0.8.x game?
09:24:36 <Supercheese> I'm bugfixing a GRF now
09:25:28 <Supercheese> Is there any way to have a newobject's sprites be larger than one tile, yet still defined as only 1x1 so it doesn't take up too much space?
09:25:43 <Supercheese> without the insane clipping issues I am currently experiencing that is
09:25:50 <peter1138> no, that would lead to clipping issues...
09:26:28 <Supercheese> Ah well, guess it'll have to be a 2x2 with a lot of unused space
09:26:44 <Supercheese> eh, could be worse
09:27:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: you might get away with overlapping the tile behind it
09:28:22 <Supercheese> It's the x-extend that's killing things
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09:37:26 <Supercheese> blarg, have to make it 2x2 but only use 1 sprite
09:38:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: cut it apart on compile time
09:38:24 <Supercheese> perhaps I'm going about this all wrontg
09:38:58 <andythenorth> what are you trying to do?
09:39:07 <andythenorth> where's your spritesheet?
09:40:13 <Supercheese> on my hard drive :P
09:40:28 <andythenorth> well I can't see it there ;)
09:44:20 <Eddi|zuHause> <Ammler> planetmaker: we (only swiss?) "viertel vor acht" not "dreiviertel acht" <-- "dreiviertel acht" you commonly hear in eastern germany
09:44:54 <Supercheese> Well, I've got some sprites of circling seagulls, their max extent is about 128x78 pixels
09:45:15 <Supercheese> I've got the animation working fine, but trying to make them a 1x1 object leads to massive clipping issues
09:45:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: make all your sprites exactly the same size. makes things a hell easier
09:45:44 <Supercheese> They are all 128x78, I mean
09:45:51 <Supercheese> with transparency
09:46:11 <Supercheese> some sprites clip and others don't, hence the "max extent"
09:46:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: then in the action1/realsprite, you clip the sprite into three for the left/center[lower]/right tile
09:46:53 <Supercheese> no way to leave it all as one big sprite?
09:47:12 <Supercheese> how to go about this in NML, then...
09:47:13 <Eddi|zuHause> but you put that into one teplate, and then forget about it
09:50:20 <Supercheese> Seems even if I oversize the x/y/z extents it still clips
09:56:28 <andythenorth> Supercheese: it's not the usual way we do it, but you could leave the sprites as one single image on the sprite sheet, no slicing, no gaps or borders
09:56:34 <andythenorth> then slice out the realsprites from that
10:00:26 <peter1138> going over the tile edge will always clip
10:01:44 <Supercheese> Yes, looks like I'll have to do something like that
10:02:35 <Supercheese> quadruple my spritesets
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10:33:03 <Pikka> tai towns are starting to look good in the 19th century
10:33:57 <Supercheese> Sooo, how do I work Spritelayouts with multitile objects?
10:34:17 <Supercheese> Does a 2x2 object need only 1 layout (per anim frame) or 4?
10:34:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: roadtypes!
10:34:57 <Pikka> Eddi|zuHause: If you insist!
10:36:11 <Supercheese> I don't think I'm fully understanding this "compose an object from multiple sprites" deal
10:36:27 <Pikka> what sort of object is it, Supercheese?
10:36:43 <Supercheese> Some circling seagulls
10:36:51 <Pikka> in any case it's not really "compose an object from multiple sprites", it's "compose an object from multiple tiles"
10:37:00 <Supercheese> I have 24 frames of 128x78 pixels
10:37:42 <Supercheese> Ironically, the animation control is the easiest part, I just borrowed some of OGFX+ wind turbine code
10:38:04 <andythenorth> roadtypes schmoadtypes
10:38:31 <andythenorth> one day peter1138 might deign to code it ;)
10:39:00 <andythenorth> then I can make a wizard of oz game script
10:39:32 <Supercheese> Road: Yellow Brick
10:41:07 <Supercheese> Are there any Multi-tile animated Newobjects whose code I can inspect?
10:41:12 <Supercheese> already existing, I mean
10:42:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: MB has a salt industry with an animated railway. but i think he had issues with multi-tile objects and synchronisation
10:43:16 <Supercheese> Hmm, these need to be very much synchronized
10:44:37 <Supercheese> This may be more trouble than it's worth
10:45:39 <Supercheese> Also, it's 2:46 AM and I am getting sleepy
10:47:17 <andythenorth> just do them one tile?
10:47:48 <Supercheese> I already have a small variant, I was hoping for a large one as well
10:48:05 <Supercheese> perhaps it will have to be less large
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10:48:45 <Supercheese> By this point, it's become a "I WILL make this work, dammit"-type endeavor ;)
10:50:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: was there anything helpful about my var80 reply?
10:50:19 <andythenorth> hmm, if we had roadtypes...mad max GS
10:50:23 <andythenorth> 'the road warrior'
10:51:31 <Pikka> "OpenTTD will implicitly treat this as a DWORD sized variable", that's helpful :)
10:51:58 <andythenorth> maybe Pikka is the road warrior?
10:52:23 <Pikka> I used to be, but then I gave up bus driving :)
10:54:41 <andythenorth> that means you were priscilla, queen of the desert?
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11:01:56 <Flygon> How do I undisable that thingo that shows how full trains are in %?
11:02:17 <Supercheese> Loading indicators?
11:05:08 <Supercheese> Weird, sometimes the clipping stops entirely
11:09:01 <Supercheese> Well, time for sleep
11:09:09 <Supercheese> work on this more tomorrow
11:10:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: Ctrl+X for the transparency settings
11:11:55 <Pikka> that's why semis in egrvts are so useless
11:12:09 <Pikka> because they carry no cargo in the front vehicle, they get no TE boost when loaded
11:12:18 <andythenorth> I do that in BANDIT :P
11:12:32 <andythenorth> took a bit of faff
11:12:41 <Pikka> the articulated trucks climb hills much better because they carry cargo in the front
11:12:49 <andythenorth> egrvts 2 is pretty good though, it's making me even less inclined to do BANDIT :P
11:13:44 <Pikka> UKRS update is done, Av8 update can wait...
11:13:52 <andythenorth> the irony is, I don't really have to do anything for BANDIT, just put the set config in and it will make trucks :P
11:14:11 <Flygon> Oh, also, Pikka, using UKRS for the first time
11:14:22 <Flygon> Seems quite nice, thus far :)
11:16:53 <andythenorth> AV8 is totally done imo
11:17:16 <Flygon> Av8 is also really good :)
11:17:56 <Pikka> I have half a dozen more futuristic planes to add... but no hurry for those
11:18:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: need CB36 to alter tractive effort or something
11:18:31 <Pikka> eddi: or just load an appropriate amount of cargo in the tractor
11:19:03 <Eddi|zuHause> but that may cause weird side-effects if not fully loaded
11:19:21 <Eddi|zuHause> like if only the "front" half is loaded, the truck will show as empty
11:19:34 <Pikka> oh, you mean graphically
11:19:38 <andythenorth> it just works (tm)
11:19:38 <andythenorth> unless frosch figures out 'views'
11:19:38 <andythenorth> then you can drop the subtype livery thing and clean up my buy menu ;)
11:20:19 <Pikka> cb36 can do TE, can't it?
11:20:45 <Eddi|zuHause> there's no reason why it couldn't, anyway :)
11:20:49 <Pikka> there you go, no worries then :)
11:21:00 <Pikka> I'm not fixing egrvts though ;)
11:21:18 <Pikka> tractive effort for ships!
11:22:56 <andythenorth> it's solved for BANDIT, can't remember how :P
11:23:15 <Pikka> you put the power in the trailer?
11:23:26 <andythenorth> or maybe I didn't solve the graphical issue
11:23:35 <andythenorth> but that's probably easy, just check consist cargo
11:24:25 <Pikka> need some modern flats and houses...
11:24:34 <andythenorth> autorefit for trucks might be severely over-rated
11:24:42 <andythenorth> or at least, I've not found any use for it
11:24:50 <Pikka> better check the default houses for sprites I can cut up :)
11:25:00 <Pikka> autorefit in general is rarely useful IMO
11:25:18 <Pikka> occasionally I'll carry food to a town and mail back or something
11:25:25 <andythenorth> with cargo distribution it would be
11:25:45 <andythenorth> but I'm playing a cargo challenge GS, I don't want random cargo crap happening on my routes
11:26:02 <Pikka> I'll have to try one of those
11:26:25 <andythenorth> NoCarGoal is the simpler one
11:26:32 <andythenorth> Silicon Valley is a bit more sophisticated
11:26:55 <andythenorth> it's very different to playing sandbox
11:27:46 <Eddi|zuHause> so... there's this guy in the german forum who tried to compile with mingw, and the linker bailed on the "-mno-cygrwin" parameter... is that a known problem?
11:28:06 <Eddi|zuHause> it "worked" when removing that from config.lib
11:35:11 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: I never heard of that issue, let's see
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11:37:02 <Terkhen> I recommend are hackers and compile it yourself. <--- google translate at its finest
11:38:54 <Ammler> how does openttd decide, which baseset version to use?
11:38:58 <Eddi|zuHause> it should be "s/are/become/"
11:39:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: it picks an installed one at random, and then remembers that setting. you can change it in gamesettings dialog
11:39:41 <Ammler> dbg: [grf] Adding OpenGFX (940) as base graphics set
11:39:43 <Ammler> dbg: [grf] Not adding OpenGFX (1002) as base graphics set (duplicate)
11:40:29 <Eddi|zuHause> that's either missing a line where it added 1002 before, or it's a bug with versioning
11:41:08 <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: I have no idea of what steps he followed to install MinGW
11:41:29 <Terkhen> I have not been updating the tutorial since I moved to linux, but it seems that other people did, which I hope that means that it still works
11:42:00 <Ammler> if I start a openttd nightly, I get the red box
11:42:02 <Terkhen> it's a strange error, MinGW should recognize that flag, as it has been used by default for a long time
11:42:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: well, he claims that he followed the wiki to the letter
11:42:40 <Eddi|zuHause> which i presume means he used mingw-get-inst
11:44:47 <Eddi|zuHause> then he says the compiling itself worked, but the last step (i.e. linking) threw the error
11:45:07 <Eddi|zuHause> then removing that from LDFLAGS made it output an .exe
11:45:21 <Terkhen> I checked in MinGW's sourceforge site, the most recent version of the installer is the same one mentioned in the wiki tutorial
11:45:53 <Terkhen> sounds quite strange, I have no idea of what may be causing that :P
11:46:01 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the installer is probably irrelevant, something changed in gcc/linker
11:46:29 <Terkhen> the tutorial explicitly mentions that you should not install the "newer" version of them
11:46:59 <Terkhen> the installer has a "Use pre-packaged repository catalogues" option
11:47:06 <Terkhen> and the tutorial asks you to use that one
11:47:11 <Terkhen> if he selected "use most recent"
11:47:29 <Terkhen> or updated the compilers with mingw-get-inst, he did not follow the tutorial to the letter
11:47:47 <Terkhen> a few months ago, updating to MinGW's most recent version of gcc triggered a compilation error
11:48:11 <Terkhen> that may have changed now to different errors
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12:13:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: he claims he chose that option about "use prepackaged"
12:14:16 <Terkhen> no idea then, sorry :(
12:16:50 <michi_cc> -mno-cygwin should not be necessary at all for nativ win32 mingw, and is not supported for cygwin-mingw's for quite some time now, as they package a real cross compiler now.
12:17:56 <michi_cc> I.e. you compile for i686-pc-mingw32-g++ and not g++ -mno-cygwin since Cygwin 1.7.x releases.
12:18:11 <michi_cc> Our config.lib should probably be fixed.
12:26:55 <andythenorth> FIRS Arctic Basic has a lumber yard as source of engineering supplies. But main destination is oil rigs / wells.
12:27:03 <andythenorth> not convinced a lot of timber is needed there
12:27:26 <andythenorth> maybe I should do a new industry - rig supply yard
12:34:43 <andythenorth> Pikka: what are the inputs?
12:35:45 <Eddi|zuHause> "snob economy" :p
12:41:07 <__ln__> when did the englishmen mess up the meaning of the word 'actual'? in other languages the respective word means 'current', not 'real'.
12:47:15 <andythenorth> __ln__: orly? :) interestink
12:47:45 <andythenorth> is that actually true?
12:47:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Enemy: you are what you eat :)
12:48:06 <andythenorth> never let it be said that germans aren't funny :)
12:48:09 <Pikka> poor AI... 5-tile long train hauled by a coppernob, railway built straight up a mountain :)
12:48:21 <andythenorth> give it rack rails
12:48:50 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that sentence actually rhymes in german, so it must be true :p
12:49:15 <andythenorth> most of the germans I know are funny, dunno why there is a misconception about it :P
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12:50:18 <Vinnie_nl> if you didn't know yet
12:50:29 <Vinnie_nl> the binaries site is probably down
12:50:49 <__ln__> can't be down if it's 404
12:51:00 <Pikka> oh, it didn't matter that the railway went straight up a mountain
12:51:10 <Pikka> the company went bankrupt before the first train got to it :)
12:51:25 <andythenorth> Vinnie_nl: r24865 works for me
12:51:28 <__ln__> andythenorth: it is actually true.
12:52:12 <andythenorth> __ln__: that's actually interesting ;)
12:54:54 <Eddi|zuHause> if i browse through dict.leo.org for translations for "aktuell" it says: EN: current, FR: actuel/actuelle, ES: actual, IT: attuale, RU: актуа́льный
12:56:26 <Eddi|zuHause> (i left out chinese, because it's too far removed)
12:58:09 <andythenorth> wonder if goods -> ensp is a valid chain
12:58:46 <Enemy> Eddi|zuHause: in that case, not so smart
12:58:59 <andythenorth> I wanted to do clay -> (ensp) drilling mud
12:59:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Enemy: well, it's a "smartphone" :)
12:59:14 <andythenorth> but then I have clay pit -> ensp -> clay pit loop
12:59:18 <andythenorth> those loops are verboten
13:00:00 <Eddi|zuHause> what's different than ore mine -> ensp -> ore mine?
13:00:10 <andythenorth> that one's verboten too ;)
13:00:33 <andythenorth> there iirc no single-step chains to make ensp or fmsp
13:00:39 <Eddi|zuHause> can't have feedback loops without loops :p
13:01:04 <andythenorth> must be two links in the graph :)
13:01:40 <andythenorth> so...lots of petrol in this economy, but it doesn't get converted to ensp or fmsp. Maybe I'm missing the obvious...
13:01:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: for "ensp" being a generic cargo, you have too specific ideas about it :=)
13:02:03 <Pinkbeast> There was a FIRS where forges in towns took the output of iron ore mines and made ENSP which the mines accepted, surely?
13:02:45 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yeah fair point. I'm less bothered about actual realism of timber - > oil industry
13:02:53 <andythenorth> more bothered about having another source of ensp in my game :P
13:03:02 <andythenorth> Pinkbeast: old version, deprecated chain ;)
13:03:26 <andythenorth> this arctic basic economy is quite fun though. Much less brain-boggling than full firs
13:03:59 <peter1138> damn it, i need yacd
13:04:07 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: agreed :)
13:04:21 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: could try cargodist though, it's fairly up-to-date
13:04:27 <Pikka> surprise inclusion in 1.3.0! \o/
13:04:32 <Pinkbeast> andy: yeah, I had a bit of a hiccup when it changed (yes, I know, if I replace newgrfs midgame it is all my own fault)
13:05:27 <Pikka> aiai has looked at how slow horse wagons are, and decided it needs 116 of them to service this forest
13:06:00 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a fairly logical conclusion :)
13:07:08 <Pinkbeast> That's basically how EGRVTS horsies are - in particular sometimes you end up with horse trams just because they are a little shorter by virtue of having fewer horsies.
13:08:01 <Eddi|zuHause> we need eGRVTS horses as separate GRF...
13:08:03 <Pinkbeast> ... RV routing does not nicely handle many vehicles arriving at a station with many bays, though. :-(
13:08:23 <Pikka> realistic rv acceleration doesn't help :)
13:08:37 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, eGRVTS 2 supposedly fixes that
13:09:01 <Pinkbeast> I just switch to realistic when the horse trams go away.
13:09:02 <Eddi|zuHause> but i haven't followed the discussion
13:09:46 <Pinkbeast> I think the detail of horse drays going from 0 to 8 mph slightly too quickly is one I can overlook
13:11:47 <peter1138> hmm, which island to start on
13:12:08 <andythenorth> Pinkbeast: if you replace one version of FIRS with an incompatible newer version, all bets are off :P
13:12:27 <Pinkbeast> It all worked out # although yes I would have had nothing to complain about if it did not etc etc
13:12:30 <Rubidium> Vinnie_nl: there has never been a r24850 nightly and as such it does not exist
13:12:58 <Vinnie_nl> Rubidium: Thank you
13:14:42 <Rubidium> where did you get that URL from?
13:15:29 <Vinnie_nl> i play on openttdcoop and they are playing with that version atleast that is what there topic says
13:16:47 <Rubidium> so openttdcoop is just providing invalid URLs
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13:17:20 <andythenorth> Vinnie_nl: just compile it ;)
13:17:24 <Vinnie_nl> i'm not familiar with what there scrips are behind their IRC channel
13:17:47 <andythenorth> got macports installed?
13:17:52 <andythenorth> got the OS X developer tools?
13:18:17 <Vinnie_nl> no but it doesn't matter anyway
13:18:44 <Vinnie_nl> openttdcoop members also see that that version doesn't exist so they are upgrading to newer trunk
13:18:44 <andythenorth> first time to compile is about 10 or 12 steps
13:18:55 <andythenorth> after the first time, it's 1-2 steps
13:19:19 <Vinnie_nl> i read something on the wiki that required you to download like 2 gb of tools to compile
13:20:21 <andythenorth> something like that yes
13:22:11 <Ammler> Rubidium: it was caused by failed update
13:23:36 <Rubidium> it looks more like someone that expected that trunk at revision of 1.3.0-beta1 tag equals that tag tried to 'update' to 1.3.0-beta1
13:24:24 <Ammler> just getlocation patch doesn't apply anymore
13:24:48 <Ammler> which we use for the "webcam" :-)
13:25:37 <Ammler> no clue, maybe someone tried to update manually...
13:26:00 <Ammler> as the automatic update script just checks finger
13:26:03 <Rubidium> it really smells like it
13:27:04 <Ammler> after a revert patch of getlocation, automatic script works again
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13:49:47 <Alberth> another survivor of the net-split :)
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13:53:12 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently i didn't survive...
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13:54:41 <Pikka> okay, quick straw poll;
13:54:59 <Pikka> all OpenTTD "cities" become TaI "cities"
13:55:06 <peter1138> do de do de dum, do de do de dum, do doo do do doo do de do de dum
13:55:11 <Pikka> but should /only/ OpenTTD "cities" become TaI "cities"?
13:55:20 <andythenorth> hmm, this laggy irc is laggy
13:55:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: doesn't have to
13:55:46 <peter1138> that would probably be less confusing
13:56:03 <Pikka> that's what I was thinking, peter1138
13:56:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: would create 3 different "town sizes"
13:56:13 <peter1138> oh map generator, why do you have to place the two biggest towns on two tiny islands
13:56:24 <andythenorth> silly map generator is silly
13:56:36 <andythenorth> the spec said 'random', right?
13:56:39 <Flygon> Because it thinks that the Isle of Man has London on it and yeah
13:57:24 <peter1138> so what version of grfcodec do i need to compile ottd with?
13:57:29 <peter1138> [GRF] Assembling openttd.nfo
13:57:29 <peter1138> Error on sprite 3320.
13:58:09 <peter1138> using grfcodec r950
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14:02:50 <peter1138> //!!Error (141): ID 08 out of valid range (00..07).
14:03:00 <peter1138> do i need a magic version of nforenum?
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14:07:59 <Pikka> openttd.grf isn't, strictly speaking, a newgrf, is it peter1138?
14:08:36 <Ammler> well, grfcodec does respect that,you see commits specially for Action5
14:09:06 <peter1138> Pikka, it just has a special id so that you can't add it as one
14:09:27 <Alberth> except my openttd.grf is marked as 'modified' w.r.t. the one in the VCS
14:11:42 <peter1138> gah i hate dale's coding style :S
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14:16:24 <Pikka> town halls you reckon, andythenorth?
14:18:15 <andythenorth> country houses :)
14:18:54 <Pikka> and a 19th century road mockup for the screenshots...
14:20:54 <Pikka> <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: would create 3 different "town sizes" <- I have 6 :)
14:21:03 <Pikka> three of which are "cities"
14:22:43 <peter1138> apparently i had a ~/.nforenum directory. i wonder wtf that is all about
14:23:19 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i think i once had that problem as well :)
14:23:39 <Eddi|zuHause> then it used totally outdated data files, and nothing worked
14:25:36 <peter1138> but you never created that yourself did you?
14:25:41 <peter1138> who comes up with this crap? :S
14:26:09 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: at least i don't remember doing it :)
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14:32:41 <peter1138> and yeah, now my ottd is modified when it's not :p
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14:45:50 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: openttd's "M" flag should not depend on that
14:46:17 <Eddi|zuHause> it should only consider changes in src/
14:47:16 <Rubidium> peter1138: the .nforenum directory was created by nforenum (old versions), now it isn't created anymore
14:47:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but it's still used when it's there
14:48:00 <Rubidium> make sure nforenum is the same version as grfcodec; if that is not the case, you probably have a second install of nforenum since nforenum is packaged with grfcodec
14:48:16 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: ofcourse ;)
14:48:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: which creates the problem of outdated datafiles being used
14:48:41 <Pikka> "Accchurch" and "Accchester Falls"
14:51:54 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: it should not only consider changes in src/; it would make storing tests in VCS quite useless :)
14:52:19 <Alberth> or rather expected test-results ;)
14:53:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i mean attaching "M" to the version text
14:54:28 <Alberth> so if I mess up the grfcodec program, it will not show it as that you run a 'weird' version?
14:54:45 <Alberth> not sure how that's useful :)
14:54:58 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: it's done for consistency's sake
14:55:12 <peter1138> have i messed up grfcodec then?
14:55:18 <peter1138> cos i'm running an M version apparently
14:55:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: different baseset should not affect network compatibility
14:57:17 <Rubidium> peter1138: hmm, my just updated grfcodec has the same issue
15:01:29 <Rubidium> "Container v1 only allows verbatim data up to 127 bytes"
15:02:54 <Rubidium> apparantly we hit the 128 byte limit somewhere in the GRF
15:04:17 <Rubidium> yay for slightly incorrectly reversed engineered specifications ;)
15:04:52 <Rubidium> for now just revert those four files I'd say (it shouldn't recompile them yet)
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15:14:39 <Lakie> I have a bit of an odd question, how are final costs calculated (formulae wise)?
15:16:00 <Rubidium> y being the base price (inflation corrected each month)
15:16:09 <Rubidium> z being some constant for fixed point math
15:16:29 <Rubidium> x being the the 'input' price
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15:18:45 <Lakie> So still uses occasional magic numbers (z), heh.
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15:20:02 <Rubidium> though... that z is mostly in cargo payment, otherwise it seems to be generally 0
15:20:30 <Rubidium> and what final costs did you think of?
15:20:40 <Lakie> I'm pretty sure looking at other costs it must make a differene
15:20:49 <Lakie> Purchase and running costs.
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15:25:15 <Rubidium> purchase seems to be mostly x*y
15:26:01 <Lakie> I'm assuming the base cost is divided earlier then, 400,000 doesn't seem to be 1.
15:26:21 <Lakie> More along the lines of a factor of 128.
15:26:53 <Rubidium> running cost seems to be x*y*(percentage of year running)
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15:28:19 <Lakie> Okay that makes sense, loioking at both I suspect the base costs on the wiki are based around middle factor of 128. With y being basecost / 128?
15:31:47 <Rubidium> don't see the shift anywhere in the 'base' code
15:32:27 <Lakie> Okay, maybe I'm getting the base cost wrong, wiki said ($) 400,000?
15:32:49 <Lakie> I think it's stored in pounds in the base code but probably wrong
15:33:48 <Rubidium> oh, I see a _cur.grffile->price_base_multipliers[price] = min<int>(factor - 8, MAX_PRICE_MODIFIER);
15:34:58 <Rubidium> so it looks like a divide by 256
15:37:50 <Rubidium> the wiki says NewBaseCost = OldBaseCost * 2^(n-8), where n is the value of property 08. for the cost base multiplier
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16:07:56 <bluephase> Hi all, is there anyway I can turn off the wheel mouse zoom function?
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16:12:16 <dihedral> destroy the wheel :-P
16:13:06 <dihedral> sorry - i was just kidding, there should be a setting somewhere with which you can control the wheel, i think - or was that only for OS X in order to switch between zooming and scrolling?
16:13:19 <bluephase> well, its a apple mouse, so there is no wheel! its monitors the movement on the top and i keep zooming out
16:13:56 <Terkhen> IIRC there is an advanced setting that does that
17:00:06 <andythenorth> engineering supplies from a port?
17:00:12 <andythenorth> export goods, alcohol
17:00:19 <andythenorth> import engineering supplies?
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17:00:29 <andythenorth> this is for a basic economy, with limited cargos / industries
17:00:41 <drac_boy> I don't see why not?
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17:12:21 <Pikka> town sets are so fun...
17:12:57 <Pikka> to test each little tweak, you have to start a game, build a train, and let it run for 50 years...
17:14:25 <Terkhen> I remember that it was possible to run OpenTTD from the console with AIs without GUI, that should make the process a bit less painful :P
17:16:57 <Pikka> I just turn off the pallete cycle and park the view in the corner of the map zoomed in
17:17:14 <Pikka> runs at about 3 months / sec
17:35:42 <Evropi> does OpenTTD ever plan to ship with an AI
17:36:51 <Evropi> also I just logged in and I got a 404 error :(
17:37:11 <Evropi> should have gone to 'Central User Management'
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17:38:30 <Terkhen> Evropi: shipping with an AI would require choosing the "best" AI, which is something in which every player will have a different opinion :)
17:39:06 <Pikka> also, the "best" ai is currently a bit like the "best" way to poke yourself in the eye
17:39:20 <Evropi> well, right now there are two types of AIs: hideously difficult ones for a first-time player (or someone used to ye olde TTD) and and painfully incomplete ones
17:39:39 <Pikka> which type would you like included?
17:39:49 <Evropi> there is a third one that tried to emulate ye olde TTD's AI, but it is incomplete. Does the job well though
17:40:43 <Evropi> you should create a complete, relative easy AI to play against. it is too confusing, a friend of mine tried openttd and gave up on it, I recommended it to him later and told him that you actually can play against the computer
17:45:34 <Evropi> I think that's the one I was referring to
17:45:51 <Evropi> the point is, most people won't know there are other AIs and will just give up on the game
17:45:57 <Terkhen> besides, in this channel, 4 minutes is not silence
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17:46:05 <Terkhen> be more patient, conversations here go slowly :P
17:46:06 <Evropi> it's like the game ships incomplete
17:46:06 <Terkhen> well, IIRC simpleAI is meant for people who have your same requests
17:46:16 <Evropi> I'm a regular you know, just haven't been on in about a month :P
17:46:45 <Evropi> the idea has everything wrong with it that's wrong with the concept of DLC
17:47:42 <Evropi> the reasons for DLCs existence are time constraints in development or greed. Either way, shipping an incomplete game is a bad idea
17:47:42 <Terkhen> so... if we assume that the player is not able to find AIs in the online content, should we force him to play with a specific AI chosen by someone?
17:48:07 <Evropi> no, as I illustrated with a real world use case, the user will just remove the game from the computer
17:48:28 <Evropi> and yes, of course you should, like 0 A.D. is doing
17:49:01 <Terkhen> it's not the same case :P
17:49:17 <Terkhen> you can play OpenTTD with many different playstyles
17:49:20 <Evropi> the 0 A.D. project created a forum thread in which people could weigh in about all the features and behaviours essential in a good AI. They uploaded the code for the AI to a repository that people could easily contribute to
17:49:28 <Alberth> Including without any AI
17:49:58 <Evropi> true, but that's for advanced play... I'm pretty sure MOST people use trains, road vehicles and aeroplanes (maybe ships too if they have to!)
17:50:05 <Alberth> Evropi: :o you do know about the AI forum, right?
17:50:14 <Terkhen> that means that there are no "features and behaviours essential in a good AI" that are good for everyone
17:50:21 <Terkhen> for example, you get people that wants AIs that build aesthetically
17:50:26 <Terkhen> AIs that play to compete
17:50:30 <Evropi> you really mean 'advanced players' when you say everyone
17:50:38 <Terkhen> or AIs that mock what the old AI did, mostly nothing
17:50:49 <Alberth> Terkhen: I prefer AIs that don't build at all :p
17:51:15 <Terkhen> yeah, I don't use AIs either
17:51:26 <Terkhen> Evropi: my point is that us (where us meant devs) do not want to make that decision for the player because every player wants a different thing
17:51:47 <Terkhen> if the problem is that players do not notice that they can download AIs
17:51:47 <Terkhen> a warning could be added to the AI window if you open it without any AIs loaded
17:51:53 <Evropi> that's the players that actually stay though ;))) most people will never be able to experience single player
17:52:00 <Evropi> I remember a thread on Krautchan on the matter
17:52:14 <Evropi> they were playing it mp since forever, didn't even know you could play against the pc
17:52:18 <Pikka> why do you think you can't play single player without AIs, Evropi?
17:52:37 <Evropi> you can, but it feels more like a sandbox
17:52:42 * Terkhen always plays alone without any AIs at all
17:52:42 <Terkhen> and I already did that when we had an AI
17:52:44 <Evropi> so you can prep for Mp
17:52:51 <Terkhen> many people play OpenTTD as if it was a sandbox :P
17:52:57 <Evropi> when you play against the pc it's much more exciting
17:53:08 <peter1138> s/exciting/frustrating/
17:53:24 <Terkhen> I agree, for some people :P
17:53:30 <Pikka> I find watching AIs fill the map with spaghetti roads and then go bankrupt very exciting, peter1138 :)
17:54:06 <peter1138> they just don't play like humans do, heh
17:54:12 <peter1138> otoh, neither do openttdcoop
17:55:28 <andythenorth> openttdcoop is a very advanced AI
17:55:32 <andythenorth> probably the best imo
17:55:39 <andythenorth> I've played against it in MP
17:55:48 <andythenorth> it gets cross when you do things it doesn't like
17:55:59 <andythenorth> the chat bot for it is very human-like
17:56:14 <Terkhen> my point is that the AI that you would choose would be hated by other players, and IMO players leave the game when a feature they do not like is forced upon them
17:56:30 <Terkhen> that means "an AI" for players that do not want them, or "an AI that do not suits my playstyle" for other players
17:56:51 <Pikka> you never know, Terkhen
17:57:08 <Pikka> Evropi might be able to write the perfect AI :)
17:57:51 <Alberth> I don't think you can make a choice, as it would be unfair to the other AI authors. In other words, the only alternatives are none or all
17:58:15 <Alberth> both options suck, imho
17:58:21 <Evropi> fuck 'em, good game > sucking up to the people who access your API
17:58:37 <Terkhen> Evropi: what do you mean?
17:58:48 <Evropi> OpenTTD should be less of a 'generic platform' and more of a game
17:58:54 <Evropi> Wesnoth is a good example
17:59:03 <Terkhen> but I like it as it is :P
17:59:20 <Evropi> anyone here played Battle of Wesnoth? They are basically how you do such a highly developed OSS game RIGHT
17:59:27 <Terkhen> why should we become more specific when we can cater to everyone?
17:59:56 <Terkhen> so... we are wrong? :)
18:00:03 <Evropi> but you still will do pal! The online content menu will still be there
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18:00:44 <Evropi> and if you're an elitist who wants to try experimental gameplay or something, you can always try an alternative AI. How about that?
18:00:54 <Terkhen> I'm going to do other stuff :P
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18:01:29 <Evropi> surely I'm not the first person to raise this point right?
18:02:05 <Alberth> what, that the game is not written specifically for you? no you are not
18:02:37 <Alberth> but having a few tens of thousands of programs is a tad unmanagable
18:03:04 <Alberth> we're having enough trouble with just one
18:03:53 <Evropi> Sorry, I don't understand... what d you mean by tens of thousands of programs?
18:04:06 <Alberth> one for each user, of course
18:05:49 <Evropi> seriosly though, I don't understand the downsides to my idea, you will still have the option to pick any ai, the game will just ship with one that might just be already available
18:06:39 <Alberth> (07:09:23 PM) Alberth: I don't think you can make a choice, as it would be unfair to the other AI authors. In other words, the only alternatives are none or all
18:06:39 <Alberth> (07:09:46 PM) Alberth: both options suck, imho
18:08:03 <Evropi> well, I reckon they'd understand they are making APIs for a niche audience - people who want to try rail-only games as a challenge and such things
18:08:22 <Alberth> there are also other problems in distributing an AI along the program
18:08:35 <Alberth> ie who is going to fix the bugs in it?
18:09:05 <Alberth> Evropi: the API does more than just rail-only
18:09:19 <Evropi> you can take an already existing one and put a big ass banner that says 'help develop the ai that ships with the game'
18:09:27 <Evropi> I know, it was an example
18:09:40 <blathijs> I guess shipping two or three good AI's might be an option at some point, but I guess the AIs just aren't good enough for inclusiong at this point?
18:09:50 <Evropi> or, to keep everyone happy, create a new one though it would feel like wasted effort
18:10:12 <Alberth> blathijs: then you could also start to distribute some NewGRFs
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18:10:46 <blathijs> Alberth: The argument is slightly different, since the game already ships graphics, but not an AI. But I see your point :-)
18:11:15 <Evropi> yep, exactly, you are already shipping 3 newgrfs on windows (well, they are checked by default anyway)
18:11:37 <Evropi> OpenGFX and OpenSFX are distributed are NewGRFs right?
18:11:54 <Alberth> not as part of openttd :p
18:12:46 <blathijs> They're not NewGRFs I think, they're base sets (which are treated by the game differently)
18:13:18 <Evropi> you can get them through the online content menu though
18:13:42 <Evropi> so that 'modularity' is still there for what is doubtlessly core game functionality
18:15:14 <Evropi> um nope, I installed it on linux and got it through the same menu I get everything else
18:16:01 <Terkhen> try to select OpenGFX through the NewGRF configuration window
18:17:50 <Evropi> you are comparing unrelated things anyway, see I was comparing it from a more philosophical point of view. You can theoretically replace opensfx with anything you download on-the-fly, though nothing is quite as comprehensive...
18:18:35 <Evropi> likewise, you should have an AI to have a complete experience for single player. You will be able to change or even turn that AI off completely, as you can now
18:19:24 <Evropi> so there would be two things to doL 1. pick an AI 2. rework the game configuration so it loads the AI by default.
18:20:25 <Evropi> I think people [completely new to OpenTTD] are expecting competitors when they start an SP game, OpenTTD does not market itself as a multiplayer-only game (eg. most arena shooters can be played SP but it's seen as practice for MP, whereas openttd is geniunely fun in SP)
18:41:04 <andythenorth> Evropi: you know the rules right? He who turns up with working code is declared winner
18:41:16 <andythenorth> he who turns up with demands gets kicked / kbanned
18:41:39 <Evropi> this isn't really about code when I don't have commit access to change 2 strings...
18:42:46 <andythenorth> which case is more commonly used?
18:42:55 <andythenorth> MagLev is uglier
18:43:08 <andythenorth> me neither, and I can't be bothered to look either
18:43:09 <Evropi> wikipaedia renders it as Maglev sans the capitalisation
18:43:17 <andythenorth> I would vote Maglev
18:43:23 <andythenorth> if votes meant anything here
18:43:32 <Evropi> WP is my bible :) (I have over 1000 edits on the English WP for a reason!)
18:44:13 <Evropi> Alberth has a good track record of looking at changing pedantic problems with strings ;)
18:44:43 <Eddi|zuHause> HE'S GOT OVER 1000 WIKIPEDIA EDITS!!! HE'S FAMOUS!!
18:45:09 <Evropi> lol, that's actually nothing, I mostly do NPP and CSD work
18:45:24 <Evropi> so it's not that visible, but thanks for the compliment :3
18:45:41 * andythenorth might come back later
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18:46:42 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24866 /trunk/src/lang (16 files) (2012-12-27 18:46:23 UTC)
18:46:43 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:44 <DorpsGek> catalan - 39 changes by Bassals
18:46:45 <DorpsGek> simplified_chinese - 2 changes by chenwt0315
18:46:46 <DorpsGek> croatian - 8 changes by VoyagerOne
18:46:47 <DorpsGek> danish - 6 changes by Hatsen
18:46:48 <DorpsGek> dutch - 40 changes by habell
18:46:49 <DorpsGek> english_US - 7 changes by Rubidium
18:46:50 <DorpsGek> french - 7 changes by glx
18:46:51 <DorpsGek> greek - 3 changes by Evropi
18:46:52 <DorpsGek> italian - 7 changes by lorenzodv
18:46:53 <DorpsGek> korean - 7 changes by telk5093
18:46:54 <DorpsGek> norwegian_bokmal - 8 changes by Inspirion
18:46:55 <DorpsGek> polish - 10 changes by wojteks86
18:46:56 <DorpsGek> portuguese - 81 changes by SupSuper
18:46:57 <DorpsGek> romanian - 35 changes by kneekoo
18:46:59 <DorpsGek> russian - 7 changes by KorneySan
18:47:00 <DorpsGek> slovak - 1 changes by JamesSVK
18:47:08 <Evropi> oh and uhh since I forgot to change my name
18:47:11 *** Evropi is now known as Superuser
18:47:24 <Superuser> Superuser was taken on opentdd :L
18:48:05 <Terkhen> Evropi: please open a bug report with those strings so they don't get forgotten
18:49:10 <Ammler> hehe, beta release and translator start to work :-P
18:49:12 <Superuser> will do after I'm done with this translation, thanks
18:49:44 <Superuser> Eh? it's always worked pretty great here, I've found it works much better in Firefox than [insert Webkit-based browser here] by the way
18:50:09 <Superuser> I guess FF's JavaScript interpreter... is less prone to freezing and not making you reload the page all the bloody time
18:51:25 <Eddi|zuHause> ... i was being sarcastic...
18:51:56 <Superuser> well, at least you were accurate, you are still a good Christian, doesn't lie
18:52:11 <Superuser> but are lies due to ignorance considered lies? guess not
18:52:39 <peter1138> nah, he's an Eddi, not a Christian
18:52:53 <Eddi|zuHause> my friend is Christian...
18:53:07 <Superuser> egg-celent, neither am I
18:53:50 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i'm not even baptised or member of a church...
18:58:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Superuser: you can use plural more than once
18:59:21 <glx> <Ammler> hehe, beta release and translator start to work :-P <-- it's an effect of global email :)
19:03:23 <Superuser> can someone give me the context of STR_NETWORK_SERVER_MESSAGE_GAME_REASON_MANUAL (well, the whole MESSAGE_GAME_REASON context really)?
19:04:08 <Superuser> that's what I'm confused about
19:20:18 <Ammler> glx: then spam worked ;-)
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19:48:51 <Superuser> sorry if I embarassed you by mentioning your name xD
19:49:17 <Terkhen> thanks for making the report, that way it won't get forgotten :)
19:49:18 <Superuser> okay... I can vote for my own task, lol. Nice one flyspray
19:55:36 <Superuser> wow lol,OpenTTD runs on Haiku? Lol'd
19:56:14 <Superuser> funnily enough, a linux podcast I listen to (Linux Outlaws) has gotten several write-ins about how awesome Haiku is, even from guys coming from a strong UNIX background
19:56:51 <Superuser> Anyone actually used BeOS/Haiku? What is it like?
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20:51:29 <peter1138> // Looks better centred, but not yet implemented for testing purposes for peter1138
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22:12:17 <swissfan91> Evenin' all. Quick question - am I correct in thinking that OTTD only allows two construction stages? and if so - can these stages have all 5 snow transition states?
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22:13:25 <glx> IIRC there are more than 2 construction stages
22:16:21 <swissfan91> any advances on two anyone?!
22:27:25 <LordAro> in a hex file, i have "FB"
22:27:36 <LordAro> how can i extract that (in cpp) to get 251?
22:27:48 <LordAro> my usual methods have failed
22:28:20 <glx> swissfan91: there are 4 construction stage
22:28:47 <LordAro> peter1138: can you elaborate?
22:30:18 <peter1138> c preprocessing is pretty limited
22:31:32 <LordAro> this is at runtime...
22:32:19 <peter1138> what's a "hex file" anyway?
22:32:33 <glx> text file with hex data ?
22:32:42 <LordAro> a binary file, viewed through a hex editor
22:32:46 <LordAro> sorry, that was unclear
22:33:00 <peter1138> is your c++ viewing the output of the hex editor?
22:33:36 <peter1138> if your c++ has the binary file open, then once you've read that FB value, you can output it as decimal easily enouhg
22:34:17 <LordAro> and yes, that's what i thought
22:34:52 <LordAro> but instead of getting 251, i'm getting -5
22:36:24 <peter1138> maybe you wanted to treat it as unsigned
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22:37:50 <LordAro> ok, given a string, how would i get an unsigned char (?) from that (offset 0) ?
22:38:53 <glx> with a (unsigned char) cast maybe
22:39:22 <peter1138> you're reading a binary file into a std::string?
22:39:33 <LordAro> yeah, it's probably not the best solution :L
22:40:13 <LordAro> i have exact lengths, so they're not a major issue
22:40:44 <glx> personally I just alloc memory for that
22:41:00 <glx> like a unsigned byte array
22:42:42 <LordAro> that would be an option :L
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23:26:49 <drac_boy> any of you have any thought on the usual number of coaches in an articulated set? (general ones..not the train-specific ones like eg for tgv etc)
23:27:04 <drac_boy> railcoaches* meh me and my fingers...been cooking too many things -_-
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23:40:37 <Eddi|zuHause> what how why? what's a not-train-specific articulated set?
23:41:26 <drac_boy> sorry....my brain is a bit stuck in food mode >_< I meant general articulated coaches that could had been used by any locomotives (providing it was an express type one)
23:42:09 <Eddi|zuHause> what's an "articulated coach" then?
23:42:38 <Eddi|zuHause> express trains in germany occasionally have up to 14 wagons
23:44:37 <drac_boy> maybe I shouldn't be asking so early after cooking .. but meh lets see
23:45:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say that these things are highly unusual...
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23:46:34 <Eddi|zuHause> german container wagons have this 2-part setup with a "jacobs bogie" in the middle
23:48:00 <Eddi|zuHause> the "Umbauwagen" ["rebuilt wagons"] of the 1950s in west-germany were coupled in fixed 2-wagon-units, but technically they were two separate wagons
23:49:49 <drac_boy> is that the one where it looks like two car carrier or covered goods van coupled in sets even although they're really still individual wagon chassis'?
23:50:03 <drac_boy> I know I've seen a few of these mainly marklin's model of them
23:50:11 <Eddi|zuHause> and in northern germany they use so-called "married-pair wagons", which are not fixed together, but each wagon only has half of the operational modules, so you need two different ones next to each other, so one wagon can use the modules of the adjacent wagon. (you can have odd number of wagons, but you must keep the order of A-B-A-B-A...)
23:57:17 <Eddi|zuHause> there was also the "Henschel-Wegmann-Zug", which was basically a fixed 4-wagon-set (later expanded to a 5-wagon-set "Blauer Enzian")
23:57:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it had wagons with a round panorama lounge at the end
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