IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-12-13
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00:26:43 *** drac_boy has joined #openttd
00:46:27 <drac_boy> how doing Bad_Brett?
00:46:31 <drac_boy> being bad as usual? heh
00:47:12 <Bad_Brett> nah, i'm fine thanks for asking
00:47:21 <Bad_Brett> what are you up to?
00:48:02 <Bad_Brett> i'm working on the BIG christmas update :)
00:48:10 <drac_boy> not much, just pondering some particular issues with the tracking table yet here
00:53:20 <drac_boy> heh I don't know tbh :)
00:56:38 <Bad_Brett> well i wasn't entirely serious ;)
00:57:19 <Bad_Brett> "pondering some particular issues" is seldom fun
01:06:08 <drac_boy> at least I have enough other things on the table to work on rather than just sitting at these certain few :)
01:16:20 <drac_boy> Bad_Brett curious question for you tho - do you think animal and crop should be seperate raw industry or combining them doesn't really matter much to you? (the original farm combined them anyway)
01:26:43 <V453000> I personally like the combining, because when you plan your traffic, you can easily expect 2 cargoes to have similar traffic - livestock and grain
01:26:53 <V453000> so if you drop them elsewhere you have the traffic nicely spread over the map already
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01:28:16 <Bad_Brett> i'm personally gonna seperate them...
01:28:56 <Bad_Brett> divide them into grain farms and ranches
01:29:56 <Bad_Brett> but i guess it depends
01:36:54 <V453000> gameplay-wise that is boring as it makes industries behave all the same, but .. :)
01:38:29 <Bad_Brett> well not in my mod. things are gonna be messed up :)
01:39:14 <Bad_Brett> i'll probably come with a 100 page manual
01:56:39 <drac_boy> yeah I can see how some want it that way and others the other way now
02:00:30 <Pinkbeast> In practice with OTTD as it stands the easiest way to handle an industry with 2 outputs is darn nearly building 2 stations.
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02:09:29 <Bad_Brett> btw is anyone watching the sandy relief concert?
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09:43:02 <SHADOW-XIII> couldn't find the link on the forums
09:43:15 <Flygon> Anyone remember that thread about porting OpenTTD to being run in a browser?
09:43:41 <SHADOW-XIII> this one seems to be working amazingly well, can even save, shame no multiplayer but looks amazing
09:44:48 <SHADOW-XIII> works for me on chrome
09:46:29 <SHADOW-XIII> works here, bit fast, but still, I am amazing how well it works
09:46:48 <Flygon> Scrolling is buggy as hell
09:48:56 <Ammler> does it run on the server or in the browser?
09:49:04 <Flygon> I am not used to original TTD graphics
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09:51:47 <SHADOW_XIII> did I miss anything last 5 min ?
09:52:43 <Ammler> you could always check the irc logs :-)
09:54:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Markk: a collision kinda always requires 2 objects... ;)
09:55:56 <Markk> And everything tastes blue.
09:56:36 <Eddi|zuHause> "at night it's colder than outside"
09:59:16 <NGC3982> What a brown thursday.
10:05:37 <Flygon> Markk: Blue? Like Blues Clues?
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10:59:52 <Markk> Flygon: Everything just taste like blue.
10:59:59 <Markk> Flygon: Like the colour blue.
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11:32:02 <SHADOW_XIII> lol, I don't have chat logs, using forum client :)
11:32:58 *** SHADOW_XIII is now known as SHADOW-XIII
11:38:51 <NGC3982> We have a forum client?
11:55:35 <NGC3982> Uhm. What function stops town rating from increasing whilst planting trees?
11:55:39 <NGC3982> It seems to reach a limit.
11:57:44 <Markk> Can't get better than "good", right?
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12:12:46 <NGC3982> Markk: I don't know about that, i just noticed that the amount of trees planted resulted in higher rating is not linear.
12:12:54 <NGC3982> Acceptable station layout?
12:13:50 <V453000> short curves are short
12:13:58 <NGC3982> Yes, i know. I keep ignoring the curves.
12:14:13 * NGC3982 notices he have forgotten a signal
12:14:35 <V453000> 2way PBS signal at terminus stations dont do anything
12:15:07 <drac_boy> hmm that sort of layout I would had probably taken almost all of it out except for the two through lines and redo it but thats me tho :)
12:17:22 <V453000> only if the station is accessible from the other end, be it second entrance or a depot, it has a use
12:17:25 <peter1138> they're not necessary thouhg
12:17:33 <V453000> I totally dont understand why majority of people builds the 2way PBS at every terminus
12:17:43 <peter1138> i put them in cos i might expand it at some point, and it looks better
12:18:08 <V453000> how does that help expanding? :d like to the other end?
12:18:14 <NGC3982> Function and looks goes hand in glove with PBS.
12:18:39 <drac_boy> other thing is I only use single platform alone for deadend stations but if its more then it goes into a RORO unless crushed by limited space by town or mountain :)
12:19:28 <V453000> big PBS crosses never solve stuff "well"
12:19:30 <NGC3982> And yes, curves are shorter than my gentleman's sausage.
12:19:39 <drac_boy> ughh thats a big waste of tracks indeed V453000
12:19:44 <V453000> probably acceptable for your level of traffic
12:19:49 <NGC3982> That's a mess, but it works for the low amount of traffic.
12:20:07 <V453000> it isnt about wasting tracks, it is about trains crossing each other on every occasion, which is very slow
12:20:19 <NGC3982> Although, i have to change it, since farm supplies are about to make production go Las Vegas.
12:20:24 <V453000> low = less than one track
12:20:30 <V453000> this wont work with 1 full traffic track ever
12:20:48 <peter1138> welcome to openttd, where people build how they like, even if it's not efficient or not pretty...
12:21:20 <NGC3982> It's not like i'm not enjoying the critisism
12:21:24 <drac_boy> V453000 I've managed to have one train each few days at a short platform and its only off one single track with no holding places in th RORO. but then mm :)
12:21:27 <NGC3982> That was what i was looking for :).
12:21:29 <V453000> in such cases they usually dont ask others what they think ;)
12:21:43 <NGC3982> But yes, ill try and change this
12:21:53 <NGC3982> First of, to get rid of the mainline crossing the PBS cross.
12:22:13 <V453000> you dont need to get rid of it perhaps, how about just making multiple smaller crosses
12:25:41 <Flygon> I cbf using bridges for station entrances
12:26:06 <Flygon> Thanks for the honesty, peter
12:26:27 <Flygon> Too much pain for a low amount of gain, given how I design my network
12:26:42 <Flygon> I rarely get collisions, unless I do something unusual
12:26:43 <V453000> what do you do when your station jams then
12:26:52 <drac_boy> flygon I do sometimes use short bridges for passenger station junctions ... basically doing what in real life they would call "flyover track"
12:26:54 <Flygon> I design around jams... until they do happen
12:27:06 <drac_boy> not sure if theres more than one spelling of that word in different country but I hope you get the idea?
12:27:06 <peter1138> if it jams you've made a mistake
12:27:07 <NGC3982> V453000: That's nice, but i don't like tunnels and bridges used as station entrances.
12:27:17 <NGC3982> V453000: As an esthetical thing.
12:27:18 <Flygon> In which case, I clearly need to redesign the station (and have a lower speed track surrounding)
12:27:25 <NGC3982> Although, that seems to be a very good idea
12:27:33 <V453000> I dont think I can help you in any way which makes sense then
12:27:34 <NGC3982> Here is the mainline change
12:27:44 <drac_boy> flygon or shall I find a photo instead?
12:27:57 <Flygon> drac_boy: We use flyover tracks irl
12:28:10 <drac_boy> yeah ok just wanted check you knew the term :)
12:28:23 <drac_boy> flygon one moment..let me make a quick mockup...
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12:28:50 <NGC3982> I added a small step for trains suddenly going the wrong way.
12:28:52 <Flygon> I'll need to show a screenshot of a typical design
12:29:03 <Flygon> But basically... I do allow for easy 2-way 2-train movement
12:29:08 <NGC3982> I noticed that small pieces like that make huge differences when auto-replacing trains and similar.
12:29:13 <Flygon> And ANY jams are very brief
12:30:07 <Flygon> Gah, load faster, OpenTTD
12:30:23 <peter1138> Downloading Time 4m left Bytes 443.54 MB remaining Speed 1.86 mB/s
12:30:37 <peter1138> mixing MB and mB in the same line ;(
12:30:54 <NGC3982> It says byte in both places.
12:31:40 <peter1138> i'm assuming it was once multiline with :s
12:32:02 <peter1138> NGC3982, of course, that signal leaving the station shouldn't be there
12:32:34 <NGC3982> I know, but it feels ..better.
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12:33:45 <V453000> I am afraid he doesnt use other signals than pbs
12:33:57 <peter1138> pbs is all you need
12:34:06 <peter1138> the others were only left in for compatibility with old saves
12:34:10 <V453000> yes if your iq is somewhere around 15
12:34:11 <Flygon> Uploading my standard layouts to Dropbox...
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12:34:55 <V453000> thats not very creative either ... one cross
12:35:16 <NGC3982> <@peter1138> the others were only left in for compatibility with old saves
12:35:34 <NGC3982> I thought they were left in there for adversity
12:35:39 <Flygon> Considering the amount of pass I'll get, I can justify the potential (small) lockups
12:35:46 <V453000> of course not, pre-signals have a lot more possibilities than PBS
12:36:10 <peter1138> the original patch with the current pbs form had only pbs signals
12:36:17 <Flygon> And the 2nd one is acutally WIP
12:36:45 <NGC3982> When i play 1800-ish UKRS2+ scenarios, i always use the older type of signals (and block signals) before the 1900's.
12:36:50 <NGC3982> Just for the sake of it.
12:37:06 <drac_boy> oh wait I had an old image I took from someone's game...one moment to upload it...
12:37:50 <peter1138> NGC3982, i think you mean diversity, but i'll go with adversity too ;)
12:38:17 <NGC3982> peter1138: Yes of course.
12:38:26 <NGC3982> The said "adversity" on Top Gear.
12:38:35 <NGC3982> Don't write something else.
12:38:48 <NGC3982> Don't write while doing something else.
12:39:20 <peter1138> this newgrf scanning lark takes way too long
12:39:27 <peter1138> who the hell introduced that? :(
12:40:12 <drac_boy> probably someone who couldn't manage his grf folder?
12:40:23 * drac_boy only has a few major grfs anyhow
12:41:29 <V453000> the worst comes when you have many versions of each newGRF
12:43:54 * NGC3982 have never managed a NewGRF folder.
12:44:23 <V453000> how do you do that anyway :d
12:45:30 <NGC3982> For some reason, i have never really used the same station for dropoff as for pickup
12:46:23 <V453000> this station works pretty well, but yes, sharing drop and pickup isnt a good choice
12:47:52 <NGC3982> Not too much ability to expand, but milk/livestock doesn't really pay off expanding anyway.
12:51:02 <drac_boy> http://i45.tinypic.com/aazwbs.jpg theres a bit of other forms too including ones with no offseting .. and my favorite tho is using tunnels with diagonal tracks right on top (aka no S curve which openttd always needs....come on fix that!)
12:51:13 <V453000> more trains = more fun, always pays off
12:51:22 <drac_boy> I've never had any problem with one train alwasy coming through each 1-5 days but mm to our own
12:51:54 <V453000> that is a cute solution drac_boy, but as long as the "X" is small enough to not limit platform throughput, it is a sufficient solution
12:51:55 <NGC3982> drac_boy: that's nice :).
12:52:11 <drac_boy> V453000 actually the 'x' does jam all the times
12:52:23 <drac_boy> because of train A trying to get to line 2 while train B is waiting for it...no good :)
12:53:01 <V453000> not if it is small enough, for like 2 or 3 platforms
12:53:19 <drac_boy> NGC3982 ty .. if it was for freights I rather use RORO instead...easier to manage signalling that way
12:53:31 <drac_boy> with towns its only because one end of the station always butts into buildings so mm
12:54:22 <drac_boy> if i was to change that junction to a X I would have to pratically sell half of the trains off to avoid constant jams...and guess what? less loads coming out of the station.. no good :|
12:54:31 <Pinkbeast> NGC: Trains enter at one end of the station and leave by the other.
12:54:49 <drac_boy> NGC3982 I thought old players would already know :p Roll-In-Roll-Out .. hell even the old wiki still has it
12:55:02 <NGC3982> I used that the first five years of OpenTTD
12:55:25 <NGC3982> Never heard the word, though.
12:55:25 <Pinkbeast> Also it does look terribly artificial for stations in towns.
12:55:37 <NGC3982> peter1138: Sorry, i'm hilighting you by mistake again.
12:55:48 <peter1138> drac_boy, roll-on, roll-off. comes from ferries
12:56:04 <peter1138> it's not a term used irl
12:56:09 <NGC3982> RORO seams to be a good thing for freight, though a bit bulky for PAX in towns.
12:57:04 <drac_boy> NGC3982 true...it works for freight also because of their length too
12:57:31 <V453000> NGC3982: you can always hide a roro exit in tunnels ;)
12:57:48 <drac_boy> eg a 26-cars train rolling back through the shared enter/exit junction would make some issues but .. if it went out the other end .. problem solved :)
12:58:03 <drac_boy> it only work for pax because of these usually being of short lengths and/or fast to clear out
12:59:49 * NGC3982 is starting to enjoy using <5-tile trains for pax
13:00:08 <Flygon> drac_boy: I've perfected overkill
13:00:11 <drac_boy> NGC3982 mind you once in a while theres no need for a bridge on a rail crossing because theres only 1 train using each line ... thats where I don't care for flat junctions then
13:00:23 <Flygon> Two GG-1's (on opposite ends) for long distance rail passenger
13:00:32 <NGC3982> drac_boy: I usually experiment with flat crossings.
13:00:36 <Flygon> The only thing suitable is that it's doing a loop around the North American lakes :B
13:00:54 <NGC3982> Though, it f*cks stuff up as soon as you increase the number of trains by N.
13:01:17 <drac_boy> NGC3982 in usa it was kinda common to eg have a local light line cross a major mainline by having a swinging barrier gate that blocked the light line till train came to a stop and phoned dispatcher for clearance to unlock the gate and swing it into blocking the mainline for a few minutes as the train crossed by
13:01:56 <drac_boy> NGC3982 it was not worth the cost and yearly cost of putting in light signals when theres so few trains on a weekly basis...much cheaper for the one lone train to just stop and clear through
13:02:15 <NGC3982> Useful as long as you use like ..two trains or something.
13:03:11 <drac_boy> I didn't mean a connected junction .. I meant like in literally a '+' shape :)
13:03:18 <drac_boy> just so you know if that wasn't the case
13:06:34 <drac_boy> NGC3982 in some places there was little traffic and the crossing was remote ... it was purely a "stop and proceed" ironically
13:06:47 <drac_boy> almost exactly like any 4-way-yields road intersections
13:07:39 <drac_boy> speeds were usually 30-60km/h so .. who cared ... you could see it for several seconds before your first axle finally touched it
13:07:58 <V453000> what do you guys even do when you reach 2295 production/month industry
13:08:20 <V453000> dont tell me you dont need throughput at that point
13:09:53 <NGC3982> V453000: You mean, when reaching max production?
13:09:55 <V453000> units, tonnes, items, whatever
13:10:07 <V453000> pretty much, or anywhere close to it
13:10:34 <drac_boy> NGC3982 mind you there was one unusual junction in usa....it was to do with the limited lands what with kinda being in a valley shared with large river....
13:11:07 <drac_boy> what happens is lets say the river runs west-east ... mainline is on the south bank parallel to it .. and you want to run another line heading northeast on other side ...
13:11:59 <drac_boy> so what actually happened was a train coming from east ... it would actually hit a turnout that went left for a bit ... then start swing hard to the right in a tight curve .. and cross the mainline track itself before finally rambling onto the bridge
13:12:13 <drac_boy> talk about having no space to just turn right immedately .. the bank was too close
13:14:03 <drac_boy> signals on that one was a little more complicated than normal because the train's axles may have cleared the mainline but it was still technically fouling it with rolling through the crossover
13:14:58 <drac_boy> NGC3982 do you get the idea tho? the track crossed itself basically
13:16:28 <drac_boy> oh and of course CSX actually has one "old" problem that started more than 80 years ago ... what happened was north-south line is at one elevation .. west-east is at another elevation low enough to have to use a tunnel (not a bridge!) instead ....
13:16:36 <Flygon> Kisses? Not enough, dear
13:17:21 <drac_boy> and they wanted to connect the two for occassional train so what happened was they put in a single switchback to hold down the grade .... but this temporary solution actually became permament instead ... and even CSX is still leaving it as it is
13:18:08 <drac_boy> makes for interesting operation with modern diesel ... basically pull into the switchback....then clear the other route with dispatcher ... back train up blind (theres no more cabooses eh?) to the other line .. then finally reset brakes to proceed on forward as usual
13:23:29 <drac_boy> intrestingly enough the switchback is long enough for at least 110 cars now ... heh
13:24:23 <drac_boy> NGC3982 I can't imagine what it would be like in europe if they were stuck with a switchback operation tho
13:24:29 <drac_boy> different schedules and rules etc
13:36:55 <NGC3982> Using a depot as a real order is really nice if you want to "pre-build" trains for expansions
13:37:34 <NGC3982> Since profit is not the main purpose of that station, i can build ten trains at once and just wait for the Farm Supplies to do the work.
13:38:08 <drac_boy> not sure if I'm missing something just yet but do you have to stay with one wagon length or can you eg have it 20px long with one cargo class but 17px instead with another cargo class?
13:39:34 <Eddi|zuHause> you can do overflow depots without explicit orders
13:39:58 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: yes, that is possible
13:40:12 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Yes, but that's not ..right.
13:40:49 * NGC3982 wish he could use drive-trough depots
13:40:50 <V453000> well drawn form and "coded" form the wagons differs too
13:40:51 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: you can charge extra for the rebuilding effort :)
13:41:01 <V453000> for example I have all wagons equally long but the sprites differ in sizes
13:41:10 <drac_boy> thanks eddi, was just wondering about the problem of ore being much heavier than coal
13:41:27 <NGC3982> Afaik, drive-trough depots are not constructable with NewGRF?
13:41:41 <V453000> is normal depot not enough?
13:41:53 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: i'd do separate wagons in that case anyway
13:42:01 <NGC3982> V453000: That was not the question.
13:42:25 <drac_boy> yeah I'm thinking about that option too ... hopper for most bulk loads except seperate shorty ones for ore alone
13:42:26 <NGC3982> V453000: Does it look better then before? :)
13:42:58 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: those engines are horribly misaligned
13:43:04 <drac_boy> I'm not surprised that usa had a lot of these short (not sure if theres another name for them) brown hopper cars specifically for ore alone
13:43:25 <V453000> NGC3982: sorry ,it is equally horrible, overflow depot doesnt improve the throughput of the station
13:43:47 <V453000> but hey, no bridges ftw
13:44:07 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Yes, OpenGFX+ grain/sugar beet wagons and engines from the Dutch Replacement Set.
13:44:17 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: how much "throughput" does a primary industry station need?
13:44:31 <NGC3982> Unfortunately, the Dutch Replacement Set wagons have way to excessive speed limits.
13:45:03 <V453000> not too much Eddi but if he asks what could be done better on a primary station ... ;)
13:45:44 <NGC3982> V453000: The troughput is not the primary deer i hunt, when building a overflow depot. I wish to use it to prevent queues on my mainline, but still be able to expand the amount of trains visiting the station without having to deal with it while production increases.
13:46:02 <NGC3982> Sure, a RORO station would be more effective
13:48:14 <NGC3982> Ill read trough it, thank you.
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14:12:54 <Eddi|zuHause> (really, you could simply use the search function in the forum or something)
14:13:33 <__ln___> sir tim berners-lee is responsible for the http:// part.
14:13:35 <SHADOW-XIII> are you serious? have you tried searching for it yourself ?
14:17:19 <Eddi|zuHause> besides of the search being horribly slow, when i enter "play-ttd.com" [including the ""] i get exactly one result...
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15:09:02 <drac_boy> hm is a conflat just a flatcar with container latch frame built into the surface?
15:22:41 <drac_boy> apparently so...only in uk for a short time too
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16:15:54 * NGC3982 tries to figure out how to send a train between two stations with 30 days apart.
16:17:01 <drac_boy> heh trying to get a specific payment rate? :)
16:17:16 <NGC3982> No, i'm delivering supplies.
16:18:00 <drac_boy> ohh that monthly thing
16:18:11 <drac_boy> hm well which vehicle grfs are you using?
16:18:29 <NGC3982> Dutch Replacement Set
16:18:47 <NGC3982> Though, i just noticed that it took several months at max speed
16:18:52 <NGC3982> So ill need to experiment with faster trains.
16:18:58 <drac_boy> don't know whats in there so not sure I could help much sorry
16:19:26 <NGC3982> Engineering supplies every 34 days should be enough.
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16:27:52 <NGC3982> When taking a look at this order table. The train does not leave when it has loaded more than 1%. It fills up completely and leaves full.
16:28:06 <NGC3982> Can i set the train to only load 1% and then leave?
16:32:51 <drac_boy> NGC3982 as I recall the mini-in (or was that chrill? I forgot which had what anymore heh) let you set from 0% to 100% loading in tens ... it was a really nice idea :/
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17:01:21 <drac_boy> btw I don't know if theres any other solutions to this but I was wondering about having a tiny grf that only basically has one 0ton wagon with no speed limit and no visible sprites for as a mean to be able to use autoreplace to strip now-useless brakevans and whats not out of a train?
17:01:35 <drac_boy> right now it seem the only way is to manually stop trains in depot and take it off yourself
17:05:55 <Pinkbeast> It would be better to have a more general consist replacement tool.
17:06:32 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast hmm like how would you describe that?
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17:09:20 <NGC3982> This is actually quite hard
17:09:42 <NGC3982> When adding a new line to a complete and well-runned circle system, it's almost impossible not to confuse one or two trains
17:10:35 <NGC3982> In my case, it usually mean confusing one or two hundred trains.
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17:33:58 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: I am fixing cets push building already ;-)
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17:39:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: it certainly is oberhümer's fault :p
17:39:36 <Eddi|zuHause> no... someone should "fix" nml so i can do partial compiles... :/
17:41:36 <Ammler> it was an error caused because we do not cleanup build environement anymore, and I upgraded to opensuse 12.2 (Tumbleweed)
17:42:48 <Ammler> maybe we should use Factory for the build env
17:43:54 <Ammler> I hoped the distro upgrade hassle is gone with Tumbleweed, but sadly it is still based on current release
17:45:52 * drac_boy keeps wishing there weren't always overhead wires with the cursing trams -_-
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17:53:49 <drac_boy> hm anyway had enough of poking around with things..going off for a while now -_-
18:18:06 * NGC3982 changes name from Henrik Johansson to Henrik Zugfhrer.
18:21:48 <Eddi|zuHause> "Zugführer" is (usually) the lead conductor (unless there is no conductor on the train)
18:22:36 <peter1138> what if there's no orchestra?
18:23:39 <Eddi|zuHause> what if there's no tree in the woods? :)
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18:33:19 <NGC3982> Seriosly, that's a name in real terminology?
18:33:43 <peter1138> then it wouldn't be woods
18:34:12 <NGC3982> "Fhrer" is a word well set in the Swedish language.
18:34:34 <NGC3982> Really only known for one thing (except giggles).
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18:45:33 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24819 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2012-12-13 18:45:23 UTC)
18:45:34 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:35 <DorpsGek> basque - 3 changes by lutxiketa
18:45:36 <DorpsGek> malay - 51 changes by richz
18:45:37 <DorpsGek> polish - 3 changes by wojteks86
18:45:38 <DorpsGek> russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
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19:54:17 <Alberth> why is it so quiet here nowadays?
19:55:17 <Terkhen> eight hellos isn't quiet :P
19:56:54 <FLHerne> Because everyone ran out of things to say?
19:57:19 <Alberth> in the course of a few weeks?
19:57:38 <FLHerne> We should just wait until andythenorth pops up and needs convincing not to drop some feature/plan/project again :P
19:58:09 <Terkhen> it was better when he wanted to do crazy stuff :P
19:58:11 <FLHerne> Alberth: Did anything new happen that would inspire conversation in the last few weeks?
19:58:14 <Terkhen> that creates better discussions
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19:59:07 <Alberth> FLHerne: not in this channel :p
19:59:14 <FLHerne> Terkhen: He does seem to be doing about as much as would be sane already :P
19:59:54 <Terkhen> two years ago it was quite more frequent, and with more random topics
19:59:54 <FLHerne> BANDIT/CHIPS/HEQS/FIRS/Pixa/? :o
20:00:07 * FLHerne wishes he was as productive :P
20:00:19 <Rubidium> so, you want a conversation
20:00:21 <Alberth> so what are you doing now?
20:00:38 <Rubidium> who's going to do the releases? I fear I don't have time for them :(
20:04:50 <Terkhen> not that I have much time lately either, but if there is some page explaining the process we (we=devs) could take turns on doing them or split the tasks somehow
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20:05:10 * Terkhen is blissfully unaware of the whole release process
20:07:21 <Rubidium> i.e. backporting (not needed for betas) and updating the changelog (hell for beta1)
20:08:46 <frosch123> Terkhen: the big task is writing the changelog :)
20:08:56 <Rubidium> as you need to go through all commits from branch of 1.2 and then see whether it's a new feature not backported, whether it's a bugfix for a bug existing before the branching (i.e. not fixing a trunk only bug, i.e. a bug that didn't make it to a released version)
20:09:09 <frosch123> all features, changes, unbackported fixes since february :p
20:09:35 <Rubidium> normally I did that when I had some free time and felt like doing it, but I haven't felt that way
20:10:08 <Terkhen> I would not mind updating the changelog this time, depending on how much time I have to do it :P
20:10:09 <Rubidium> so it was an incremental process that didn't feel like that much work
20:10:24 <Terkhen> it should only take me... a week or something :D
20:11:02 <frosch123> i guess one would start with a script, which reads the commitlog and filters all revisions which are mentioned in the 1.2. backports :p
20:11:50 <Terkhen> that's a good start, yes :)
20:12:02 <Zuu> Rubidium: Is that To_do_for_release page supposed to exist? I get a page that allow me to create it.
20:12:59 <Terkhen> I could adapt pm's script (meant for NewGRFs) to work with OpenTTD's changelog and to remove revisions mentioned as backported too, that should trim the work a bit
20:15:09 <Terkhen> I'll start looking into it this sunday :)
20:16:39 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: there's also a "Triebfahrzeugführer" (informally "Lokführer"), which is the guy who is actually driving (he may also be the "Zugführer" in case he's alone on the train or it has automatic doors)
20:17:22 <frosch123> isn't zugführer always the driver? while zugchef is the conductor?
20:18:20 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: anyway, "Führer" is too common of a word to get rid of just because one guy rode it to death :p
20:20:38 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: also, these terminologies are usually way older :)
20:23:13 <michi_cc> Where was the Führerbremsventil when you needed it? :p
20:32:48 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: it would still have taken someone to actually use it...
20:43:29 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Well, "fhrer" does not mean anything else but nazi stuff, for your average Swede.
20:45:28 <NGC3982> I love the word, though.
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20:56:00 <Terkhen> it's been a tiring week, the only good thing is that it is almost ending :P
21:00:31 <drac_boy> you much for talking about ingame vehicles or not really?
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21:01:36 <DorpsGek> Terkhen: Don't ask to ask, just ask
21:04:32 <drac_boy> well terkhen what do you think about having triple level coaches in the game even although in real l ife they probably would be slow to load from ground level and be a bit tippy etc (both of which doesn't apply in a frictious game anyway)
21:05:09 <frosch123> maybe you can solve the loading times by making them self-discharging
21:06:06 <Terkhen> it may be because I'm tired, but I'm having trouble in making sense of your sentence... what's a triple level coach?
21:06:42 <drac_boy> maybe...terkhen three floors ... as compared to doubledeck (or bilevel as usa sometimes calls it) cars
21:06:58 <drac_boy> frosch123 good one...I'm sure these 1px people wouldn't mind that :P
21:07:01 <Terkhen> I have never seen one of those
21:07:22 <drac_boy> Terkhen thats the point tbh...what do you think of having triple level coaches *in* the game? ;)
21:07:31 <Terkhen> with regard to road vehicle sets, I prefer simplicity over too many choices
21:07:35 <frosch123> drac_boy: if you make the (n+1)-th floor have half the size of the n-th floor you can fit infinitely many into one wagon
21:07:57 <Terkhen> I would be happy with "faster, a bit more expensive and less capacity bus" and "slower, cheaper and high capacity bus", probably
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21:09:00 <drac_boy> terkhen well I guess if you want to be extreme about it... single-floor bus with high speed since it can corner a bit hard ... double deck thats ok on speed but not good for long distance ... and triple deck thats slow but perfectly good for a loop circuit inside a dense city :)
21:09:03 <frosch123> but maybe you just want to increase the capacity with the new meatgrinder+reassembling technology
21:09:05 <drac_boy> or something like that
21:10:03 <Terkhen> inside cities, trams or metro trains would be better IMO
21:10:26 <drac_boy> frosch123 you sure came up with a rather amusing idea. if you want to be futuristic about it you should borrow something from the Stargate:Atlantic tv show and basically have a computer box with external scanner/remateralizer that can fit 200 people into the space of a small crate?
21:10:48 <drac_boy> if you know that tv series ... its the computer used aboard the Dart (as its called) ships
21:11:20 <frosch123> well, i was more thinking of ijon tichy
21:11:52 <frosch123> disassembling and assembling people into dust for transport
21:12:17 <frosch123> and if something gets losts. no worries, there is always some replacement dust around
21:14:28 <Terkhen> heh, ijon tichy stories are awesome :P
21:14:39 <Terkhen> even if whenever I read them I feel like I'm losing a lot in the translation
21:14:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i only know the TV version of that
21:15:16 <frosch123> i have the book lying around, but did get around to actually read it
21:15:39 <Eddi|zuHause> very sci-fi-trash TV :)
21:15:44 <drac_boy> frosch123 you know...I only saw still pictures taken from the movie by users but theres actually a triple deck bus in one of the middle series harry potter movie
21:15:55 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: good trash is the best :)
21:16:05 <drac_boy> we only see the first floor most of the times but we could see some minor details of the other two floors in it too tho
21:16:18 <Eddi|zuHause> are they producing a 3rd season?
21:16:30 <frosch123> only saw the first one was well :p
21:16:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i've seen the 2nd season
21:17:04 <Eddi|zuHause> was... strange...
21:17:06 <drac_boy> the funny thing tho was how that bus could weave in and out of traffic lanes without leaning over too much but I'm sure that they shot it in slow motion then sped it up on the screen
21:17:11 <drac_boy> that or doing it completely digitally
21:17:32 <drac_boy> there is NO way a triple deck bus could do that without completely flopping over :)
21:17:34 <frosch123> drac_boy: easy, just keep the bus in place, and move the road
21:18:10 <drac_boy> frosch123 that would be tricky to do with the traffics I think, but I don't know how they shot these scenes so I wouldn't debate it tho
21:18:31 <FLHerne> drac_boy: It didn't even fall over when it halved in width (including the passengers :P)
21:18:35 <drac_boy> that part where the purple bus squashed to only 2-3ft width (magic maybe? heh) to squeeze between other two buses was a bit crazy tho
21:19:04 <frosch123> pff, why make it big outside if you need the room inside
21:19:13 <drac_boy> FLHerne I liked the part where as soon as it got back to normal width it suddenly sped up a lot with a loud backfire .. and we even saw the flame-barking exhaust port too :)
21:19:35 <drac_boy> or how about coming to an abrupt halt in front of a parked car .. and still set off its alarm anyway
21:19:43 <drac_boy> that one bus was quite silly
21:21:34 <drac_boy> frosch123 as I recall there were standard cot beds spread around on the first floor...so it may be the other two floors were more bedding space or for other purposes? again I don't really know tbh :)
21:22:07 <Zuu> Though, there is still many things to figure out and then code. Allowing it to work also for multiplayer and network synchronization scares me a bit :-)
21:22:34 <frosch123> but i think you make it work in multiplayer you have to make it more like the strings
21:22:40 <frosch123> and put the windows into the savegame
21:22:48 <frosch123> and only add some few dynamic contents via commands
21:24:08 <frosch123> Zuu: but, i miss the usecase where to use those windows :)
21:24:26 <frosch123> is it meant as a more advances gsquestion?
21:24:43 <frosch123> or more like additonal info to the goal gui?
21:25:01 <frosch123> i.e. who triggers opening of the window? the script or a client?
21:25:01 <Zuu> You mean that the window types (eg. widget tree) go into savegame. There might also need to be a list of visible windows (eg. instances of window types) Then the live data for visible windows is the onyl thing to pass around using commands.
21:25:42 <Zuu> I would like the tutorial to inject a button/window somewhere that allow users to recall the last tutorial message.
21:26:02 <frosch123> tutorial is only singleplayer
21:26:17 <Zuu> The only way I can do that now is to create a GSQuestion window that appears in the center of the screen and ask the user to move it to a better place.
21:26:29 <frosch123> singleplayer always has only one human client
21:26:51 <frosch123> multiplayer otoh is very different, it may have no human clients at all, or they might join somewhere in the middle
21:26:52 <drac_boy> anyway any of you know the name for these certain wagons found on europe rails where the sides are not one solid wall but rather sliding metal doors and/or hardy-but-flexible tarp rollups?
21:27:04 <drac_boy> makes it easier to load wide things in etc
21:27:51 <Zuu> If GS gain the posibility to create windows also in MP, I would think that they will get used.
21:29:35 <frosch123> well, gs would have to learn about clients then :p
21:30:23 <Zuu> either that, or the window state versioning solution at the bottom need to be implemented
21:31:05 <Zuu> basically, OpenTTD sync the state of the window among clients of a company and only actions by clients with the last state are accepted.
21:31:30 <frosch123> Zuu: i think there are very different use cases for windows
21:31:50 <frosch123> e.g. if one wants to add some more data to the goal gui, one client might want to press a button there to open another window
21:32:02 <frosch123> but it makes absolutely no sense, if that window is then opened on all clients :p
21:33:03 <frosch123> so, i would rather expect some client<->gs connection for a single window
21:33:12 <frosch123> and the gs knows when multiple clients open the same window
21:33:17 <frosch123> so the gs does the syncing itself
21:33:22 <frosch123> if there is something to sync
21:33:42 <Zuu> yes I guess that is what it have too be like.
21:34:23 <frosch123> and if gs know about single clients you are very near allowing all the current singleplayer stuff for multiplayer
21:34:28 <frosch123> like scroling the screen for some client
21:34:43 <frosch123> so, i wonder where to stop :p
21:34:53 <Zuu> this is becomming a massive task :-)
21:34:55 <frosch123> like disallowing construction for a single client :p
21:35:08 <frosch123> or kicking a client who does too much terraforming :p
21:36:43 <Zuu> Maybe I should just think of my current GUI need. Allowing a GS to define a few action triggers/buttons which appear in the interface which allow a user to send an event to the GS.
21:36:48 <drac_boy> frosch123 that might be an interesting feature...kicking player who seem to stupidly flatten mountains just because they are too lazy to do anything except lay very flat and straight tracks
21:36:58 <drac_boy> I really hate these people :|
21:37:45 <frosch123> drac_boy: you know, you can already limit the terraforming amount?
21:37:52 <drac_boy> btw I never knew how it worked but I recall a few specific servers that had some kind of yearly terraforming limit...eg raise something 20 times and then you have to wait till next year
21:38:11 <drac_boy> that was a lot more sane ^
21:38:28 <frosch123> terraform_per_64k_frames = 4194304
21:38:30 <frosch123> terraform_frame_burst = 4096
21:38:33 <frosch123> ^^ check those settings
21:40:39 <frosch123> same settings exist for planting trees and clearing land
21:40:45 <Wolf01> is anybody playing gnomoria here?
21:45:17 <frosch123> looks like minecraft without the fps part
21:45:52 <Alberth> perhaps add GUI stuff to newgrfs?
21:46:03 <Alberth> eg custom industry windows?
21:46:16 <frosch123> what should they do?
21:46:21 <drac_boy> hm guess I'll have to figure out my rail wagon issue tomorrow instead heh
21:46:39 <Alberth> frosch123: what we do in the engine now
21:47:14 <Alberth> display name of the industry, how much it produces
21:47:27 <frosch123> we already have lots of such callbacks
21:48:07 <frosch123> i don't know what kind of buttons industries might want to add to the gui
21:48:31 <frosch123> like "increase production" makes no sense without making it cost at elast
21:49:04 <frosch123> which does not sound like good gameplay either
21:49:16 <Alberth> perhaps an "kill industry" button in the manual industries :p
21:49:59 <Alberth> I agree it would be mostly displaying data much like what we do now
21:50:31 <frosch123> i think newgrf can already display a lot of data, much better than gs actually
21:50:40 <frosch123> interactive parts are more useful for gs
21:50:59 <frosch123> as some kind of interface to select certani goals
21:51:32 <frosch123> gs could add buttons to an industry or town to make the gs do magic around there
21:53:09 <frosch123> but at some point that would need client side scripts
21:53:35 <frosch123> the server could send a client-side script via the savegame, which does gui tasks at the client
21:54:00 <frosch123> the client-side script would not be able to execute commands like the server side gs, but it could send messages to the server gs
21:54:08 <Alberth> sounds bloody complicated
21:54:13 <frosch123> Zuu: ^^ how about that for gui stuff in mulitplayer?
21:54:39 <frosch123> Alberth: more complicated than remote controlling client guis from the server? :p
21:55:29 <Alberth> I am not sure you need a gui
21:55:37 <frosch123> and the client always wating for a server response before something happens :p
21:55:49 <Alberth> Instead I can do something to show my intentions, eg build a station
21:55:58 <Zuu> sounds like what javascript is for server-side solutions on the web :-)
21:56:13 <frosch123> Alberth: he, wasn't the topic about guis? :p
21:56:32 <frosch123> but yeah, for now we always use the hq :)
21:56:33 <Alberth> Zuu: let's add xml too :)
21:57:19 <Zuu> Alberth: Play the tutorial and come back again and say that GS don't need GUI :-)
21:57:54 <frosch123> Zuu: the tutorial only needs something like a mission book as seen in many games
21:58:11 <frosch123> like the goal gui, but with actual pages and a lot of text
21:58:13 <Alberth> we could add gui for the tutorial
21:58:27 <Alberth> ie code some otherwise unused windows
21:58:45 <Zuu> Maybe that is what we should do. Make a tutorial tailored GUI that GSs can create.
21:59:15 <frosch123> don't make it "tutorial" like, but more like "mission" like :)
21:59:31 <frosch123> so it can be used in all scripted-scenario contexts
21:59:38 <Alberth> "your mission is to learn OpenTTD."
21:59:46 <Zuu> A wizard window with next/previus buttons?
21:59:48 <frosch123> technically nocargoal and silliconvalley are scripted scenarios
22:00:03 <Alberth> "this GUI will automatically close in 10 seconds..."
22:00:16 <frosch123> Zuu: the goal window, with items than can be added, and checked, and a number of stories next to it
22:00:26 <frosch123> the goals stay in place, the story has prev/next buttons
22:01:05 <Alberth> add "like" buttons to the goals :p
22:01:35 <Zuu> So something like the online content window. A list on the left side with all goals. On the right side we show the story related to the selected goal?
22:01:50 <frosch123> it is somewhat tied to the goal system
22:02:03 <frosch123> when you complete some goals (not necessarily all) a new page is added
22:02:10 <frosch123> and some goals are added or removed
22:02:19 <frosch123> (removal may be independent of completion)
22:02:43 <Alberth> have a tab 'completed goals'
22:02:50 <frosch123> Zuu: somewhat, but the link between goals and logbook should only be optional
22:03:19 <frosch123> i.e. you should be able to prev/next without clicking on a goal, and not every goal needs an associated page
22:03:20 <Zuu> So the logbook is a separate window.
22:03:53 <frosch123> also goals should be possible to have checkmarks for completion, or it should be possible to strike them out if they no longer apply
22:04:08 <Zuu> So what we have is a separate window: StoryWindow which GSs can add pages. A goal can then refer to a story page.
22:04:56 <frosch123> it could be two windows, they could be linked like smallmap/industrychain window, or they could be some expand/collapse thingie in one window
22:05:00 <Zuu> frosch123: I made a patch to allow goals to be marked as completed as well as showing their completeness in a separate column. The reaction I got was "why did you make this useless patch" :-p
22:05:11 <frosch123> like the income: small window only shows goals, big window shows goals and story
22:05:46 <frosch123> Zuu: was it useless? i don't remember :p
22:10:03 <frosch123> Zuu: i hope the luukland guy did not put you off :p
22:10:41 <Zuu> Actually he did make me focus on other patches for some time. But mabye I shouldn't have let him.
22:10:42 <frosch123> they only think about their own stuff (which is fine), and complain about everything else (which is not)
22:12:38 <InducTrackerOTTD> I'm not finding an about page in the wiki, what's unknown horizons game like, I womder
22:13:02 <frosch123> i believe it's an anno clone
22:13:06 <frosch123> though i never played anno :p
22:13:18 <frosch123> basically you have an island
22:13:30 <frosch123> build stuff to get inhabitants
22:14:07 <frosch123> i played it a few, but i don't think it fits a ottd player :)
22:14:22 <frosch123> for me space was very restrictive
22:14:30 <InducTrackerOTTD> I'm also an occasional civ player
22:14:50 <frosch123> you could fill islands within very few years, move to the next island and fill that one
22:15:07 <frosch123> but you could not build really big stuff
22:15:28 * InducTrackerOTTD reads the premise for Anno 2070
22:15:29 <frosch123> also it is unfinished, so it gets quite repetitive quickly since there is not yet any advanced stuff
22:17:37 <frosch123> but in the dev stage i played, there were no battles
22:19:53 <Zuu> In the current version, the logbook have bookmarks that stick out for a few pages.
22:20:27 <Zuu> Basically tabs, but with a nice visual touch :-)
22:21:54 <frosch123> apparently it is heading for a combat system
22:22:03 <frosch123> but there were none at the stage i played
22:22:11 <frosch123> so, likely that is why it was so pointless :p
22:22:19 <InducTrackerOTTD> You know, I used to play a couple sailing oriented games a long while ago and forgot what they were called. One was about running a ship or perhaps a small fleet of 'em on the carribean in a kind of tune your pirate ship exp grind adventure
22:22:52 <InducTrackerOTTD> and another one, pretty darn cool, conquering ports and building warships from on land resources, I think
22:23:38 <InducTrackerOTTD> It was a pretty neat simplified sailing ship naval combat sim, turn based IIRC
22:23:45 <frosch123> never heard of those; when i think about ship games i think about stuff like "ports of calls"
22:24:03 <frosch123> or the remakes of that
22:25:25 <InducTrackerOTTD> both were 2d, very simple kinda graphics games IIRC
22:26:02 <InducTrackerOTTD> I don't think the latter game I vaguely recall had a trading aspect to it
22:26:41 <frosch123> i always preferred the making-money games :)
22:27:09 <frosch123> i liked colonization with cheats
22:27:22 <frosch123> you could lock down the competitors to stop annoying you
22:27:33 <NGC3982> Pro-tip: Zeus - Master of olympus
22:27:36 <frosch123> spawn a town of units at the beginning (so you can do big stuff before time runs out)
22:27:50 <frosch123> but sadly you could not get around the 256 units on map limit :/
22:28:05 <InducTrackerOTTD> The only economy/profit oriented game I got into ever was tt really
22:28:20 <frosch123> and trading routes and pathfinding failed, so you had to move every single wagon yourself
22:29:21 <frosch123> i also liked settlers I, but not to demolish the competitors, but to fill the entire map with farms and mines :p
22:29:35 <frosch123> but sadly there was also a limit of workers
22:29:45 <NGC3982> Settlers 3 (i think), that Heritage of Kings one - is really nice.
22:30:03 <frosch123> and warehoused could not display more than 1000 units
22:30:11 <frosch123> so, you did not exactly know how much you had
22:30:32 <frosch123> the newer settlers are boring in comparison to settlers I
22:30:47 <frosch123> they make it more like rts, and less like a sandbox game
22:30:55 <frosch123> mines run out of resources all the time
22:31:01 <frosch123> and farms produce way too few stuff
22:31:27 <frosch123> settlers I was somewhat like ottd, you had to build complicated road networks to move all cargo around
22:31:37 <frosch123> (esp. because the cargo movement was very restrictive)
22:32:01 <NGC3982> I'm using the Dutch Replacement set.
22:32:05 <frosch123> in settlers II you never had much cargo for very long to be able to really block your network
22:32:18 <frosch123> that was kind of sad :p
22:32:22 <NGC3982> I'm trying to autoreplace a freight train with a pax train, and it does not work with a specific engine.
22:32:30 * Zuu liked settlers too for its rich set of buildings and relativly long construction stage.
22:32:52 <Zuu> At least when I played it, I took time to get to the point of taking down the enemies.
22:32:55 <NGC3982> I can build the train with the new engine manually, so i guess autoreplacing should work.
22:32:56 <frosch123> Zuu: you should play widelands then
22:33:01 <NGC3982> And i can autoreplace other engines.
22:33:04 <frosch123> it has even longer cargo chains
22:33:08 <drac_boy> NGC3982 could it be because of the incompactible cargo?
22:33:16 <frosch123> esp. the barbarians are really weird :p
22:33:26 <NGC3982> drac_boy: It shouldn't be, since i can build and run the train manually.
22:33:37 <NGC3982> As you see in the picture, train 87 is the new one.
22:33:47 <NGC3982> Sure, it's a pax engine, but i fail to see how that affects autoreplacing.
22:34:05 <frosch123> NGC3982: you see the message at the bottom of the screeen?
22:34:13 <drac_boy> NGC3982 no I mean autoreplace will not work if eg wagon 1 only refits to passenger and wagon 2 only refits to freight ..... or the grf has a limit on which locomotives can be used with certain wagons (reminds me of ukrs and why I stopped using it)
22:34:23 <drac_boy> otherwise thats all I can think to tell you
22:34:33 <frosch123> "vehicle is not available" means the engine is no longer buildable
22:34:40 <NGC3982> frosch123: Yes, not related. That is older vehicles.
22:34:54 <NGC3982> As i said, i can build both engines and wagons manually.
22:35:11 <NGC3982> drac_boy: Oh, that sounds resonable.
22:35:29 <frosch123> well, then check the newer news :p
22:35:39 <frosch123> autoreplace should always spawn a message when it fails
22:35:47 <NGC3982> Can it be that the autoreplace refuses, since the engine itself is not refitable to oil
22:36:32 <NGC3982> frosch123: The thing is, they are not even trying.
22:36:32 <Zuu> frosch123: Thanks for the tip.
22:36:36 <NGC3982> Even when forced in depot.
22:36:39 <frosch123> if both engines are refittable and the new one cannot carry the old cargo, it won'T replace
22:36:47 <NGC3982> Ah, that explains it.
22:36:54 * NGC3982 sells a lot of trains.
22:37:00 <frosch123> replace it with an engine without capacity first :p
22:37:15 <frosch123> two-step autoreplace :)
23:38:58 *** drac_boy has joined #openttd
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