IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-12-09
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00:35:15 <Flygon> Also, local authorities are jerks
00:35:19 <Flygon> Yay for huge rail networks
00:35:22 <Flygon> Shame about the stations
00:44:29 <Flygon> NGC3982: They get very upset about me building train tracks over their pretty trees. I can't build stations afterwards
00:44:45 <Flygon> And the trams won't increase ratings enough for over a year
00:45:44 <NGC3982> Then replant them trees, mate.
00:49:31 <Flygon> NGC3982: Can't plant trees inside train tracks, mate. x.x
00:49:38 <Flygon> But, yes, I do plant trees
00:49:52 <Flygon> But, then comes the towns where I need to geoengineer x.x
00:50:17 <NGC3982> That is not really taken in consideration
00:50:23 <NGC3982> Just plant them somewhere near the town
00:50:51 <NGC3982> I recon it can take up to thirty clicks, but they will eventually budge. :p
00:55:59 <Flygon> It's easier, however, just for me to build trams deploy them, then build and wait :B
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01:09:25 <Flygon> Some authorities are just jerks @_@
01:16:03 <V453000> teach them the magic dozer language
01:17:53 <Flygon> Don't want that on my record D:
01:19:03 <V453000> you dont need to destroy the town, but killing trees and terraforming with dozer enabled doesnt hinder authorities
01:23:00 <Flygon> I didn't know that o.o
01:24:52 <Flygon> I'll just smother the local authority with trams :D
01:25:13 <Flygon> They don't wanna approve me? Fine. Not my fault they gotta put up with tram congestion :D
01:26:21 <V453000> just useful, not evil :)
01:27:23 <Flygon> But things feel better when they're evil!
01:30:09 <V453000> well then do it the evil way; it is yours to choose with the dozer after all
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09:18:53 <NGC3982> peter1138: Re: Discussion about placing additional banks in the same town, with OpenGFX+.
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09:20:54 <NGC3982> peter1138: For some reason, i still get the "Too close to another industry" when trying to fund a new bank in the same town. I wonder what purpose that "You need 150 houses or more for more banks" sign actually had.
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09:26:13 <Terkhen> NGC3982: IIRC OpenGFX+ Industries does not change bank building restrictions, besides a setting allowing valuables banks to be built on map generation
09:26:25 <Terkhen> so they should behave as they do in vanilla OpenTTD
09:29:50 <NGC3982> Since, i was presented with a sign basiclly saying "you need to make this town bigger to build more than one bank"
09:29:56 <NGC3982> Wich was a bit confusing
09:30:04 <Alberth> Terkhen: but there are no "need 150 houses for another bank" strings in openttd lang/english.txt
09:30:28 <Terkhen> let me check OpenGFX+ Industries code
09:31:24 <Alberth> line 16 lang/english.lng? :)
09:31:44 <Alberth> STR_ERR_TOWN_TOO_SMALL :... this town is too small for having {COMMA} industries of this type (there can be only one of these industries for every {COMMA} houses)
09:32:11 <Alberth> NGC3982: ^^ that error?
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09:32:15 <NGC3982> Yes, that sounds familiar.
09:33:23 <Terkhen> in OpenGFX+ Industries, we changed the restriction "only one per town" to "only one per every X houses in the town", where X is a constant defined in OpenGFX+ Industries which happens to be 150
09:34:08 <Terkhen> this was made to allow, for example, delivering water to a big city if the existing water tower is too close to the center of the city
09:34:15 <Terkhen> but it does not lift the "too close" restriction
09:34:45 <andythenorth> are there any good truck grfs?
09:35:56 <Alberth> for my definition of 'good', yes
09:38:45 <NGC3982> Terkhen: So, i should be able to place more banks in the same town?
09:39:10 <Terkhen> NGC3982: as long as they are far enough from each other, yes
09:39:21 <Terkhen> and the town has more than 150 houses :P
09:40:12 <NGC3982> The distance seems to be the problem, then.
09:40:25 <NGC3982> (For me, in this game, so to speak).
09:44:26 <NGC3982> Terkhen: It's a nice feature. :)
09:47:21 <andythenorth> which feature is more important for RVs? Auto-refit, xor variable number of trailers?
09:47:27 <andythenorth> they're not orthogonal :P
09:48:35 <NGC3982> Terkhen: Is there a specific number of tiles between the industries, by the way?
09:49:50 <Terkhen> ok, I was checking if it was in "our" code or in OpenTTD code :P
10:06:57 <Eddi|zuHause> oh the lovely snow outside and the lovely warmth innside :)
10:15:49 <Alberth> perhaps also a sprinkle of christ-mas?
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10:50:19 * andythenorth finishes converting FIRS to python
10:50:34 <Dr_Tan> and then make a buss set
10:50:47 <InducTrackerOTTD> NGRFs can be coded in python?
10:51:00 <andythenorth> BANDIT is spiked
10:51:07 <andythenorth> InducTrackerOTTD: yes
10:51:21 <andythenorth> on hold, not abandoned, but very stuck
10:52:03 <Dr_Tan> you told me this before
10:52:07 <InducTrackerOTTD> Crap, I might get to have my grf flavours after all!
10:52:09 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: in jail
10:52:19 *** Dr_Tan is now known as Nat_aS
10:52:43 <andythenorth> Nat_aS: because I can't figure out the set design
10:52:54 <andythenorth> I have plenty of code, but nothing that makes a good newgrf
10:53:01 <Nat_aS> well HEQS is the only RV set that dosn't suck
10:53:10 <Nat_aS> I just wish it had trucks and busses
10:53:23 <Nat_aS> transporting goods and such via tractor seems strange
10:53:29 <TrueBrain> if it doesnt have trucks and busses, what RVs does it have?
10:53:35 <andythenorth> HEQS has a significant bug that I should fix
10:53:41 <andythenorth> I should pull the current HEQS from bananas
10:54:12 <Nat_aS> it's got tractors, and large trucks
10:54:16 <Nat_aS> but not highway trucks
10:54:35 <andythenorth> it also fails to comply with the newgrf spec correctly
10:55:04 <Nat_aS> I don't care, it's the perfect grf graphics and balance wise
10:55:24 <Nat_aS> Every veichcle looks intresting and has it's own niche mechanicaly
10:55:34 <Nat_aS> we need trainsets that are that nice
10:55:45 <InducTrackerOTTD> Cause I'm dying to try playing with something like HEQS except without the huge variety of vehicles. More kinda like the Very Large Ships GRF
10:56:10 <InducTrackerOTTD> Modyfying the specs range rather than spectrum density
10:56:21 <andythenorth> InducTrackerOTTD: trivial with nml
10:56:33 <andythenorth> you don't really need python wrapper to do that
10:56:41 <Alberth> also, the set is open source
10:57:00 <InducTrackerOTTD> I just dunno anything about NML or any of the other openttd extension languages
10:57:31 <andythenorth> do the nml tutorial?
10:58:25 <InducTrackerOTTD> I'd have to track it down first, I'm currently discovering wiki.openttd has nothing on the topic
11:00:26 <NGC3982> This bandit thing feels interesting. What is it, and where can I read more?
11:00:49 <InducTrackerOTTD> I presume NGRF thingy is a system for both TTDP and OTTD
11:02:51 <InducTrackerOTTD> Oh well, I forgot python is synonymous with python2
11:04:47 <NGC3982> Ah. Trucks. ..It seems.
11:06:07 <NGC3982> I have been noticing the discussions about alcohol.
11:09:46 <andythenorth> one solution to BANDIT: no articulated trucks
11:13:19 <Alberth> yeah, discussions about alcohol do attract attention :p
11:16:40 <TrueBrain> okay, I will be there in .. euh ...
11:17:13 <TrueBrain> greatly depends which pub, I guess
11:22:57 <TrueBrain> that is rater random yes :P
11:24:09 <TrueBrain> but we have no pubs here
11:24:14 <TrueBrain> we have ....... bars
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11:38:05 <andythenorth> so the thing is, I'm not sure rv-wagons solves all the problems
11:38:16 <andythenorth> it allows variable length RVs
11:38:39 <andythenorth> but there are new problems with compatibility of trailers to lead vehicles
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11:42:42 <Rubidium> MNIM: going to the Netherlands to go to Belgium?
11:45:03 <frosch123> does belgium still exist? i thought it was annaxed by netherlands and france
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11:46:34 <Rubidium> I'd say: give Limburg to Belgium/Flanders ;)
11:47:36 <MNIM> Rubidium: they have more than just belgian beers there.
11:48:47 <MNIM> specifically, they have Jever.
11:49:21 <Terkhen> andythenorth: keep it simple :P
11:50:36 <Eddi|zuHause> "... da könnt ja Jever kommen"
12:10:49 <InducTrackerOTTD> Anyone recall the randomization span length for new vehicle model appearance?
12:14:00 <InducTrackerOTTD> Terkhen: in the default set =\
12:14:33 <InducTrackerOTTD> ahh, 511 days
12:14:38 <Terkhen> that's valid for the default set too
12:15:03 <Terkhen> it is describing the default OpenTTD behavior, regardless of how the introduction date was defined
12:16:37 <InducTrackerOTTD> Perhaps tomorrow =p
12:18:20 <InducTrackerOTTD> Darn, another thing I wonder is if I can fetch the r##### number of version installed within the game somehow
12:18:43 <InducTrackerOTTD> Doesn't seem to be a version command in the console
12:20:02 <Terkhen> such command would be tricky for stables, because they are branched at a given revision number but they still may get new commits when backports are made
12:20:27 <Terkhen> for nightlies, the revision number appears on the title of the main window when you start the game
12:20:29 <frosch123> maybe you can try "gamelog"
12:21:08 <InducTrackerOTTD> Hmm, changelog seems to suggest 1.2.0 was frozen around r24108
12:21:25 <InducTrackerOTTD> Good to know, considering the third point in the section Terkhen linked
12:21:53 <frosch123> 1.2 was branched in early february
12:22:08 <Terkhen> with regard to that section, r16929 is... ancient :P
12:22:36 <InducTrackerOTTD> Yeah, I don't have a frame of reference for r values well
12:22:45 <InducTrackerOTTD> I don't play svn
12:23:02 <frosch123> he, tk was faster :)
12:23:21 <Terkhen> if you want to know what is a branch, and why a given revision number may correspond to nightlies or to stables, you need to know at least that small bit :P
12:24:12 <Alberth> InducTrackerOTTD: but version control is so very useful, even for your own data
12:24:21 <InducTrackerOTTD> I don't have data
12:24:35 <InducTrackerOTTD> And I've been too lasy to git-wrap my goodies
12:26:23 <InducTrackerOTTD> Back to scenario editing, yay!
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13:54:57 <andythenorth> what does bananas do when I increment min. compatible version for a newgrf?
13:55:09 <andythenorth> wrt old games using older version
13:55:55 <Ammler> the versions are just for the download filter
13:56:08 <Ammler> saves load specific grfs
13:56:34 <andythenorth> so openttd doesn't use the min. compatible version?
13:57:06 <Ammler> openttd uses the versions, but saves don't
13:57:34 <andythenorth> I'll just bump the version anyway
13:57:46 <Ammler> if you download a newgrf via ingame service, you get the filter
13:58:02 <Ammler> if you download for a save, you download independent from filter
13:58:25 <andythenorth> ok, that makes sense
13:59:28 <andythenorth> should I put FIRS 0.8.0-test-2 on bananas or not?
13:59:47 <andythenorth> I never found a good answer to distributing test grfs :)
14:00:22 <FLHerne> andythenorth: What it needs is a devzone client too
14:00:33 <FLHerne> That would be rather neat :-)
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14:00:53 <andythenorth> there is more than one universally available for most operating systems
14:01:31 <andythenorth> supports listing of grfs
14:01:36 <andythenorth> and browsing old versions
14:01:51 <andythenorth> some of them include a download manager too
14:01:51 <FLHerne> My bash-scripted wget works ok, but integrated would be nice
14:03:26 <andythenorth> ach, what can go wrong? I'll just stick it on bananas
14:04:42 <Ammler> andythenorth: create a 2nd entry for firs-dev or something
14:05:22 <Ammler> afaik, the version tags do not work to keep 2 versions available
14:05:33 <frosch123> yeah, firs-dev would suck
14:05:48 <frosch123> different grfids break any compatibility
14:06:46 <frosch123> but sadly uploading a new version with higher min_version makes older versions of the grf unavailable
14:07:06 <andythenorth> I am about to do that
14:07:08 <frosch123> so, clients which do not meet the min_version cannot download anything :p
14:07:21 <andythenorth> min_version grf or min_version ottd?
14:07:43 <andythenorth> I'll just distribute via forums
14:07:49 <andythenorth> simple is better
14:07:54 <Ammler> why not simply release 0.8.8 instead a beta version
14:07:54 <frosch123> the ingame content list displays only the newest entry, and only if it is compatible
14:08:04 <frosch123> if the newest one is not compatbile, it does not show any older
14:08:04 <Ammler> then do bugfix releases
14:09:23 <Ammler> do people behave different, if your beta is buggy or your stable is buggy?
14:09:51 <Ammler> ah indeed, they payed for stable version ;-)
14:10:54 <Ammler> also is 0.8 still compatible with 0.7?
14:12:47 <Ammler> so a new bananas entry would not hurt, would it?
14:12:53 <andythenorth> and 0.8.0-test-2 probably won't be compatible with the 0.8.0 release
14:13:01 <andythenorth> bananas won't allow same grfid
14:13:07 <andythenorth> and changing grfid is verboten
14:13:08 <Ammler> why do you need same id?
14:13:15 <andythenorth> because I get yelled at if I don't
14:13:17 <frosch123> different ids definitely hurt
14:13:29 <Ammler> frosch123: if it is incompatilbe anyway?
14:13:33 <andythenorth> it's all a morass of different compatibility-assurance mechanisms :P
14:13:38 <frosch123> who said it is incompatible?
14:13:39 <andythenorth> I would like a release manager
14:13:49 <frosch123> also who said that the next version will be incompatbile to the beta?
14:14:17 <Ammler> well, not firs-dev, but firs2 or firs-0.8 or whatever
14:14:18 <frosch123> changing the grfid just to allow a beta on bananas is seriously the most stupid thing one could do
14:15:50 <Ammler> I just agreed above :-)
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16:48:20 <andythenorth> I need to play a FIRS game, to test the release
16:48:39 <andythenorth> or maybe someone else could do that? o_O
16:52:22 <Terkhen> shouldn't you test releases before making them? :P
16:52:49 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24804 /trunk (8 files in 2 dirs) (2012-12-09 16:52:43 UTC)
16:52:50 <DorpsGek> -Add: Separate subdirectory for screenshots.
16:53:07 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24805 /trunk/src (screenshot.cpp screenshot.h) (2012-12-09 16:53:01 UTC)
16:53:08 <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Refactor determination of screenshot viewport for world screenshots.
16:53:26 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24806 /trunk/src (lang/english.txt toolbar_gui.cpp) (2012-12-09 16:53:21 UTC)
16:53:27 <DorpsGek> -Feature [FS#3148]: Ask for confirmation before creating giant screenshots.
16:53:36 <andythenorth> Terkhen: strange idea :P
16:53:47 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24807 trunk/src/console_cmds.cpp (2012-12-09 16:53:41 UTC)
16:53:48 <DorpsGek> -Add [FS#2820]: Enable usage of 'companies' console command also in singleplayer.
16:54:08 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24808 /trunk/src (depot_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp) (2012-12-09 16:54:02 UTC)
16:54:09 <DorpsGek> -Feature(ette) [FS#4458]: When share-cloning vehicles don't open the vehicle window of the new vehicle. The only reasonable thing to do with the new vehicle is to start it, which can also be done via the depot GUI.
16:54:29 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24809 trunk/src/engine_gui.cpp (2012-12-09 16:54:23 UTC)
16:54:30 <DorpsGek> -Feature(ette) [FS#2632]: Consider engine preview windows always sticky, so non-shift mass-closure does not affect them.
16:55:09 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24810 /trunk/src (6 files in 2 dirs) (2012-12-09 16:55:03 UTC)
16:55:10 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Make engine preview offers more robust wrt. changes in the company ranking.
16:55:19 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Did you find what caused that annoying CHIPS bug ever?
16:55:27 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24811 /trunk/src (engine.cpp engine_gui.cpp) (2012-12-09 16:55:21 UTC)
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16:55:28 <DorpsGek> -Add: Close engine preview window when another client accepts it.
16:55:44 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24812 trunk/src/engine.cpp (2012-12-09 16:55:38 UTC)
16:55:45 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Close pending preview windows when the engine is introduced to everyone.
16:55:55 <andythenorth> FLHerne: no, it's beyond me
16:56:03 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24813 trunk/src/engine.cpp (2012-12-09 16:55:57 UTC)
16:56:04 <DorpsGek> -Change: Offer engine previews only to companies which actually use the particular vehicle-type/cargo-type combination.
16:58:13 <Superuser> holy shit frosch is on a roll
17:08:42 <Alberth> your comment scared him into stopping :p
17:09:30 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24814 trunk/bin/ai/regression/regression.txt (2012-12-09 17:09:24 UTC)
17:09:31 <DorpsGek> -Fix (r24810): Update AI regression.
17:11:58 <frosch123> that one was the bonus :p
17:18:44 <Eddi|zuHause> haven't had that in a while
17:19:08 <frosch123> at least i was faster than the farm with noticing :p
17:26:39 <andythenorth> I need someone to take on FIRS economies as a project
17:26:48 <andythenorth> all code is done
17:27:21 <andythenorth> even if I had the interest, I don't have any time to devise + test combinations of industries + cargos
17:29:02 <andythenorth> "I need..." has a low chance of getting the result though :)
17:31:16 <andythenorth> three simple economies (one per climate) suited for playing MP NoCarGoal or SV
17:43:52 <andythenorth> oberhümer suggests that FIRS primary production boost should just be a linear function of delivered supplies
17:44:06 <andythenorth> so they're not really primary any more
17:44:18 <andythenorth> just a variant of secondary, with a base production amount
18:45:25 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24815 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2012-12-09 18:45:17 UTC)
18:45:26 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:27 <DorpsGek> english_US - 2 changes by Rubidium
18:45:28 <DorpsGek> finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
18:45:29 <DorpsGek> spanish - 2 changes by Terkhen
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21:45:39 * Zuu celibrates sucessfully adding the Ship AI to Beginner Tutorial.
21:46:06 <Zuu> It took more time than it might sonud :-)
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21:51:05 <Rubidium> how hard can it be to add an AI to a scenario? ;)
21:54:31 <planetmaker> ShipAI? That must be new
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22:08:43 <Zuu> Rubidium: That part is the easy one. The more time consuming part is that the AI appeared to not have been tested at all.
22:09:30 <NGC3982> I'm rather befuddled on how to actually increase industry production in OpenGFX+.
22:09:56 <Zuu> Let see. Time to introduce a 3-pack bananas entry :-)
22:41:45 <Zuu> There we go. The ship chapter of Beginner Tutorial can now be completed by an AI (select lorry chapter without completing the ships chapter first)
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23:41:08 <__ln___> "Fred Brooks subsequently wrote a witty and incisive book describing his experiences with OS/360. While it would be impossible to summarize the book here, suffice it to say that the cover shows a herd of prehistoric beasts stuck in a tar pit."
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