IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-11-07
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00:02:14 <Supercheese> Those tenders remind me of some in NARS
00:02:16 <drac_boy> that was for visibility considering it was a yard engine so the limited water supply was not a concern .. easy to stand up in cab and well pretty much see behind locomotive as it eases up to a cut of wagons
00:03:03 <drac_boy> in some cases there was only like maybe 11,000 litres of water ..a small amount which wasn't any concern as the water tower was only a few minutes away all the times anyway
00:03:47 <drac_boy> suprcheese of course one of these particular locomotive had to make an unusual rescue once....
00:05:13 <drac_boy> gasoline rpo (mail0 coach would not even start up one freezing morning due to iced up radiator fins ..what to do? of course phone the nearby yard and ask the yard goat to haul it onward ...
00:06:07 <drac_boy> took several minutes to resupply its tender then the train went off limited to only 25mph due to the risk of the bucking snow derailing it ... and had to make several long stops for water .. then the last bit of the story was...
00:06:49 <drac_boy> train finally reached the final station which was a major terminal and instead of the scheduled mail platform it simply took the firstmost platform to make it easier to holster the locomotive away
00:07:05 <Supercheese> Blocked the express or some such?
00:07:26 <drac_boy> and the next day the scheduled return was provided by a more proper steam locomotive with two rpo coaches instead .. considering the powered coach was not likely in any shape to run
00:07:58 <drac_boy> supercheese it was a quiet single-track branchline so there was nothing to delay...except for stationmasters having to be told that the train was going to be very late
00:08:36 <drac_boy> still..to call up a yard goat to take such a knackered train onward in a blizzard was some last-minute thinking ;)
00:08:55 <Supercheese> well, couldn't just leave it stranded there
00:09:30 <drac_boy> supercheese its not quite same thing but I recall another kind of story that was related to bad coals....
00:10:33 <drac_boy> doublehead train leave yard but soon it was apparent the coals they had were almost no different than the ballast used for the track (thats a OUCH there!) .... after an uneven slow running they finally reached an operator's station and phoned the dispatcher for further instructions....
00:11:23 <drac_boy> turned out another train had already stalled on the hill ahead but was being aided by a helper so .. plan then was that if this train did stall on the hill too they'll lit their red fuse and that'll be the signal for the returning helpers to tie onto the train and help it as well ...
00:12:25 <drac_boy> and off they went ... sure enough .. as expected .. all that dirty black smoke did nothing but bring the train to a stall....red fuses go out .... and while waiting for the helper they dumped all the ash out and tried to rebuild a better fire
00:13:01 <drac_boy> train made it into the next yard without much problem afterward .. but yeah lets say that the article writer said that when he went to the bathroom to look in the mirror the only thing not black were circles around his eyes!
00:13:13 <drac_boy> talk about really bad coal :)
00:17:46 <drac_boy> supercheese at least water problems were almost nonexisting, usually only related to too much foaming (from too much pH chemicals or so in the rocking tender) or from balky injector(s)
00:18:18 <drac_boy> all the foaming could play a bit of havock with the water sighting glasses pretty much :-s
00:18:38 <Supercheese> I should ask the folks north of here if I can get an engineer's tour of their 2-6-2 Prairie
00:18:51 <Supercheese> I think it's converted to waste-oil-fired
00:19:23 <drac_boy> hmm I've never seen many of them but 2-6-2 isn't bad arrangement tbh
00:19:46 <drac_boy> although on tank locomotives it did make more sense..always having a guide axle in either directions
00:20:34 <drac_boy> tank locomotives for commuter services were almost always something out of eg 2-6-2T, 2-8-4T, etc anyway
00:21:26 <drac_boy> mind you some railroads had big tank locomotives for particular reasons
00:21:59 <drac_boy> like how about a 2-10-4T with rather small tires that it looked like it was literally flying.....at only 40km/h? :P
00:22:08 <drac_boy> had a lot of tractive tho
00:22:28 <Supercheese> Oh wait, forgot the one north of here is narrow gauge
00:23:47 <drac_boy> thats a DRG 96 (originally bavarian as usual)
00:23:56 <Supercheese> Compound tank engine?
00:24:22 <drac_boy> don't recall..just kinda know the name and it being german thats about it
00:24:36 <drac_boy> still it shows that tank were not always small indeed
00:25:27 <Supercheese> must have had beastly tractive effort
00:26:53 <Supercheese> "it could manage an incline of 25‰ at 25 km/h hauling 465 tons" dang.
00:28:14 <drac_boy> 25km/h and 465 tons .. that sounds a lot too alike to N&W Y6b there :)
00:28:40 <drac_boy> but mind you the Y6b had to contend with a mountain-cuttijng line which had a lot of cliffs-swiping curves
00:29:10 <Supercheese> the 25% grade seems quite steep
00:29:59 <drac_boy> there was one trackside photo in magazine of a Y6b clawing uphill in thick smoke with a rocky cliff wall only a few inches far away from left side of the locomotive meanwhile the front truck was swung a bit to the left for it was on a curve
00:30:10 <drac_boy> talk about a true mountain route indeed
00:30:41 <drac_boy> btw supercheese 25 0/00 and 25% are not really the same thing I think
00:31:25 <Supercheese> yeah, notation is different
00:31:46 <Supercheese> I see percent and inclines and I think US Highway grade percentage, as that is what I am most familiar with
00:31:52 <Supercheese> despite that likely not being the same thing :P
00:32:42 <Supercheese> 738.4 kN traction?! Whoah
00:32:56 <drac_boy> btw 25 0/00 is like about 2.5% if I'm right I think
00:33:07 <drac_boy> thats not too harsh but .. still quite steep enough
00:33:22 <Supercheese> a 25% highway grade would be... impossible at best :P
00:33:43 <drac_boy> basically one 0/00 is a tenth of a % as far as I can tell right now
00:34:34 <drac_boy> then again the funny thing is 1% means 1 out of 100 ... so not surprisingly 1 0/00 seem to just simply mean the same thing by its longer form
00:35:23 <drac_boy> supercheese... 25% would be ... well ... umm do you even know how steep these crazy roads in calfornia is? the ones that their old cable cars have to run on yeah :P
00:35:55 <drac_boy> then again some of the old towns in italy were not really made for cars...steep roads with sharp curbs .. need a small car but with good first gear altogether
00:36:06 <Supercheese> 25% grade would require a funicular or something :P
00:37:10 <Supercheese> Eh, that's just San Francisco
00:37:12 <drac_boy> no wonder theres no lane lines and a very wide road ... *NO*ONE would ever want to not park a car sideway
00:37:58 <drac_boy> and hopefully for now (depending on if climate change does not slam them) .... never sees any winters .. any amount of snow would turn it into a sliding slush deathtrap :P
00:38:23 <drac_boy> I mean could you imagine.....walk out of door....reach the sidewalk....ops....you're starting go sideway.... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH
00:38:28 <Supercheese> Yeah, I don't think San Fran has seen any significant snow
00:38:51 <drac_boy> supercheese what would you think of that anyway? ^^
00:39:06 <Supercheese> Snow would shut the city down completely
00:39:31 <drac_boy> supercheese there was one silly story in one of my 'trucking humor' book....
00:40:28 <drac_boy> it mentioned that the vancouver towns had only one regulation for winters .. dump a feet of salt for each inch of snow ... and soon enough everything is coming to a standstill with no space to plow the salt out of the way anymore
00:41:01 <drac_boy> and he jokingly mentioned that the welcome sign for BC should instead read "STAY OUT DURING WINTER!"
00:41:48 <drac_boy> you got to hand it to him for there is one small truth tho...a lot of people have no real idea how to drive in the snow over there even although they live so close to mountains
00:43:29 <drac_boy> supercheese btw I'm not joking but a lot of the times through the winter months around here I'm always finding certain usa state plated cars in the ditch just about anywhere even on a straight country highway stretch .... sometimes even from the sunny ones too (calfornia, florida, etc)
00:43:42 <drac_boy> almost never ever find any local plates in the snow.....makes you ponder
00:45:31 <drac_boy> and nothing is worser than seeing a big fat 4dr sedan from texas spun out deep into a ditch with no tread to be seen on the one visible tires because its too clotted with slush (can you bet he did not even have winter tires?)
00:46:16 <Supercheese> I should get my snow tires put on soon
00:47:37 <drac_boy> supercheese I'm never worried about anything except really heavy thunderstorms tbh :)
00:47:47 <drac_boy> thats the fun thing of a well stocked old landcruiser heh
00:48:21 <drac_boy> heavy and a bit slow .. but ... guess what? it always go just almost anywhere (except up the wall.....duh)
00:48:50 <drac_boy> still need to find a better turbocharger that would pair up with the cummin engine tho
00:49:54 <drac_boy> supercheese its only got about 80-100hp afaik .. no idea on the real number but .. I do know that for a cummin diesel its probably got a lot of torque on the other hand ....
00:50:41 <drac_boy> so yeah put it in first gear and put the throttle pedal flat to floor .. it'll only lurch forward and start picking up speed ... never slips :P
00:51:09 <Supercheese> There's some research going on at Oregon State University on a car powered by compressed natural gas, and a natural gas compressor for your garage.
00:51:29 <Supercheese> Really sounds promising to me, being able to fuel up in your own garage!
00:51:42 <Supercheese> Also, natural gas is pretty plentiful and burns clean
00:52:00 <drac_boy> supercheese I'm not too sure..you'll have to check how much power you can get out of a litre of NG compared to other fuels
00:52:18 <Supercheese> I'd be fine with a small car, I don't need too much power
00:52:37 <Supercheese> but yeah, we'll have to see how the project progresses
00:52:37 <drac_boy> thats why ethanol is really a flop no matter how hard the usa gov tries ... its noticeably less powerful with a lower mileage than a equival all-gas-gassed car
00:53:11 <drac_boy> eg if the gas car had 130hp and got 27mpg .. then the ethanol-only would be more like 110ish hp with way less than 27mpg for sure
00:53:38 <drac_boy> the 85gas/15ethanol blend? I'm not sure but hmm maybe not good either way
00:54:05 <Supercheese> well, the advantage of alcohol fuels would be that you can take basically any biomass, ferment it, distill, and run an engine with it
00:54:20 <Supercheese> Mowing your lawn? Take the clippings and make alcohol with them
00:54:33 <Supercheese> nobody does that, though
00:54:37 <drac_boy> distilled engine? thats been tried many times in the past I recall
00:54:55 <drac_boy> hell even the original powerplant for the Zephyr was supposed to be distilled ... was soon diesel instead
00:55:09 <Supercheese> at least not these days, the Model A did exactly that (with stuff other than lawn clippings anyway) back in the day
00:55:29 <Supercheese> Model A was dual-fuel, could run gas or alcohol
00:55:39 <Supercheese> or a mixture of both, I guess
00:56:53 <Supercheese> or wait, was that Model T
00:57:04 <Supercheese> I get those mixed up :P
00:57:32 <Supercheese> seems like it was the Model T
00:58:36 <Supercheese> anyway, if you could distill your own fuel, the advantage is that Flex-Fuel vehicles can already run it straight
00:58:52 <Supercheese> I don't think we have any nat gas cars on the market at the moment
00:59:23 <drac_boy> btw I had actually been thinking about that after I got a decent turbocharger working I was going to try play around with the mixture components (including air intake part) to see if it could run on a wider octane blend
00:59:37 <Supercheese> alcohols are very high octane
00:59:41 <drac_boy> not sure yet tho...might wait till warm months again to decide about that .. winter is not a good time :p
00:59:49 <Supercheese> they'd start really well when cold too
00:59:50 <drac_boy> supercheese.. I'm talking about low octane ;)
01:00:24 <drac_boy> diesel is about 10-20 give or take ... waste fat would be just a bit higher
01:01:55 <drac_boy> supercheese btw it used to be you'll pour enough alcohol down the brake lines to waste the whole winter with ... that was pretty much the days before air dryers were created :P
01:02:29 <drac_boy> moisture in line + cold = stuck brake coks = nothing to stop truck with *****!!!!
01:03:07 <drac_boy> and of course theres many other inventions that truckers really took grant for ;)
01:04:58 <drac_boy> supercheese for the record .. waste oil is not as "free fuel" as many hyped up people try to say it is ... first you have to collect it at a scheduled time ... second filter it for any food bits left behind during frying (chicken skin etc you know?) ... then do a fine filter to make sure you only have more or less clean waste oil .. and then only finally can you more or less use that for your engine
01:05:04 <drac_boy> and thats a bit oversimplifying it btw
01:05:30 <Supercheese> Yeah, my cousin ran his pickup on waste vegetable oil for a while
01:05:40 <Supercheese> he said it was a major pain, it didn't last long
01:06:28 <Supercheese> I think there's a difference between waste vegetable oil and waste petrol/synthetic oil
01:06:40 <Supercheese> well, I *know* there is, rather
01:06:49 <drac_boy> well waste petrol is not really waste fat :P
01:07:18 <Supercheese> I think the 2-6-2 I linked earlier uses waste petrol oil
01:08:44 <Eddi|zuHause> oil-powered steam engines tended to use "heavy oil" which couldn't be refined further at that time. they grew unpopular once that became possible
01:09:11 <drac_boy> supercheese heh theres also UP and Bunker C oil too
01:09:42 <drac_boy> cheap turbine fuel .. but when that fact was gone...and newer diesels were just coming....lets say that was almost the total end for any existing turbine locomotives
01:10:42 * drac_boy wonders if there is even an octane chart of common fuels anywhere
01:11:01 <drac_boy> something that'll go from 5 to 200 etc that is
01:12:34 <drac_boy> doesn't seem to be much online either way hence me asking :P
01:15:14 <drac_boy> all these 20-60 have weird names that make no sense heh
01:15:52 <drac_boy> curiously wonder if that RON 0 thing can even ignite at all :p
01:15:53 <Supercheese> I love how ethanol is 4th highest on that chart
01:16:11 <Supercheese> oh wait it's not ascending
01:16:54 <Supercheese> It's more like 8th highest
01:18:28 <drac_boy> suprcheese just asking out of curiousity but do you drive?
01:18:38 <drac_boy> btw hi supermop..sorry...talking so much here ... how're you? :P
01:18:41 <drac_boy> supercheese auto or manual?
01:19:00 <Supercheese> I've only ever driven automatics, but I really really want to try a manual transmission
01:19:38 <Supercheese> the last two cars I've inherited from my grandmother, though, and so I don't really have a reason to buy another car
01:19:54 <Supercheese> also, none of my family drives a manual, none of my friends...
01:20:10 <drac_boy> heh I only like manual alone .. autos have too many problems aside to being expensive anyway
01:20:30 <Supercheese> I think I'd like it because you have more control
01:21:07 <Supercheese> also they apparently get better mileage, all else equal
01:21:20 <drac_boy> supercheese yeah .. plus manuals don't do weird things to gears :P
01:21:39 <Supercheese> but as I said, I've gotten my cars thus far for free, so I can't complain :P
01:22:39 <supermop> fine, eating a cheap dinner and watchinf the news
01:23:00 <drac_boy> btw supercheese if you're wondering .. its a warner 5spd transmission paired with a stiff dana transfer case here :P
01:23:14 <drac_boy> almost indestructible combination anyway ;)
01:24:49 <drac_boy> supercheese of course it doesn't help that thanks to the slow but strong engine you have to be mindful of the clutch
01:25:12 <drac_boy> otherwise if you clutch out with the stick not really all the way in .. the torque may whump it back into neutral .... heh heh
01:28:08 <drac_boy> supercheese I don't think I mentioned this part to you yet but .. you know how normally for a car you slow down then take a sharp curve .. then smoothly accerlate back up to more or less same speed? well this landcruiser usually has no idea what brakes are for .. it'll happily deck a 40km/h posted curve at a shade over 70km/h without caring ... except that anyone in the rear seat row may better find something to hang on
01:28:33 * drac_boy just whistles innocently
01:28:43 <Supercheese> Sounds good: braking is the major cause of inefficiency for an automobile
01:28:53 <Supercheese> avoid braking, be more efficient!
01:29:10 <drac_boy> actually the real problem is its slow to accerlate so its a tradeoff providing any passenger doesn't mind it
01:32:14 <drac_boy> supercheese it sometimes reminds me of a particular manga story..one moment :p
01:42:35 <drac_boy> sorry supercheese decided to add a little more but anyway .. you up for a few scanlet pages now? :)
01:43:21 <Supercheese> I don't mind a distraction from this thermodynamics homework :P
01:44:40 <drac_boy> and just so you know 'eighty-six' is because its a 1986 toyota trueno
01:45:47 <drac_boy> and well of course I don't drift (its too impossible to with all that curb weight heh) but still what he said about never decelerating pretty much is alike to me ...
01:50:20 <drac_boy> the part about loose screws in head .... I dunno what to say about that heh
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06:38:41 <Flygon> You can rename individual veichles
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08:16:06 <Terkhen> plhalaser: the tutorial at the wiki (http://wiki.openttd.org/MinGW) is meant for the "original" 32 bits version of MinGW only; my last news about the mingw64 port is that some of the libraries required by OpenTTD do not compile if you use that platform
08:16:41 <Terkhen> so, if you are looking for something simple, you may have better luck if you just follow the tutorial for MinGW
08:18:36 <Terkhen> I barely remember how to set up MSVC but the wiki page was quite clear if I remember correctly
08:21:44 <Terkhen> plhalaser: if libraries failed to compile and install for you in mingw32, you probably did not select "Use pre-packaged repository catalogues" at the installation of MinGW, or you missed the "edit etc\fstab" step
08:33:27 <Flygon> The pathfinder is a troll
08:33:33 <Flygon> I accidentally use lower speed track
08:33:39 <Flygon> And suddenly the entire network is misrouted
08:34:08 * Terkhen does not know how the pathfinder deals with multiple types of track
08:34:14 <Terkhen> does it try to avoid the lower speed tracks?
08:40:52 <Flygon> So much so that it ignored a single tile of 160km/h track along a whole stretch of 280km/h
08:41:18 <Flygon> Ended up making the trains take approximately 6000% longer <_>
08:41:47 <Terkhen> there is probably some cfg option to modify that penalty
08:42:59 <Terkhen> it would be... a long list
08:43:09 <Flygon> Could make it an optional list
08:43:17 <Flygon> If all else fails, give a choice, afterall
08:45:05 <Terkhen> therefore, only someone choosing "expert" would see the pathfinder penalty configuration options, and they would probably have their own subtree
08:45:40 <Flygon> The amount of times I've wanted to kick the pathfinder in the pants :p
08:45:54 <Flygon> It's like it's being managed by Metrol! :D
08:46:26 <Flygon> Metrol: Accidentally routing Diesel freight trains through the Melbourne underground since 1981
08:46:34 <Terkhen> I think that I will update the list of wanted patches with this task when FS#5355 is committed
08:46:49 <Flygon> (well, locomotives... only once can I recall a freight train going in >_>")
08:47:11 <Terkhen> huh, that sounds quite wrong :P
08:47:31 <Flygon> It got worse during privatization
08:47:43 <Flygon> And they split the suburban trains into two companies...
08:48:10 <Flygon> The two companies ended up with situations where one didn't have enough signallers, so the other had to borrow one from the other
08:48:33 <Flygon> And only one of them dealt with Diesel trails that go around the loop...
08:49:23 <Flygon> Cue confused signallers that's been told to route ALL electric trains through the underground loop not recognizing Diesel trains
08:50:01 <Flygon> Luckily, we have a unified suburban network again
08:53:39 <Flygon> That doesn't stop Metrol from making some baffling decisions, though...
08:54:59 <Flygon> eg. routing V/Line trains into suburban only platforms of stations, making the only way back out to either go through the loop or hold up every single platform of the station (the station in question, having at least 16 platforms (over 24 if you count sub-platforms)...
08:57:14 <Flygon> The loop actually ends up preferable, if they're in the mood to activate expensive ventalation systems (but it's only ever suppose to happen if it's scheduled, usually by railfan groups)
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09:05:40 <Terkhen> it does not seem efficient, yes
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13:56:16 <planetmaker> the birch tree was a bit of a pain to draw...
13:56:45 <planetmaker> (not the sims one, the openttd-opengfx one)
13:58:07 <Markk> I just took something ranom out of the nature to but after a game name.
13:58:31 <Markk> I thought it was the put-a-random-thing-from-nature-after-a-game-name-time.
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14:09:31 <Eddi|zuHause> how is it hard to draw a birch tree? white stem with black dots?
14:16:39 <Flygon> My OpenTTD game must be getting a tad out of hand
14:16:49 <Flygon> The client is sometimes nearly crashing
14:31:17 <__ln__> is "nearly crashing" something analogous to "almost pregnant"?
14:41:59 <Flygon> __ln__: Basically, Windows 7 asks "This program appears to have crapped out on you, do you want to kill it?" and then suddenly the client works again
14:42:06 <Flygon> Usually when I'm making a savegame...
14:44:06 <Terkhen> Windows 7 thinks that the program is not responding
14:44:15 <Terkhen> that does not mean that the program is not responding :P
14:44:32 <Terkhen> that happens to me sometimes when I'm joining a TF2 server for example
14:44:45 <__ln__> it does mean the program is not responding at the moment
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14:49:22 <Eddi|zuHause> that has nothing to do with "crashing" though... it just means that windows is a bit impatient...
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16:07:19 <DanMacK> Any of the Devzone peeps around?
16:07:59 <Yexo> you're better of asking what you want than asking for a specific person
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16:41:00 <planetmaker> mäuschen, sag 'mal "piep"
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18:09:12 <peter1138> it wobbles a lot in the slow-mo
18:44:54 <NGC3982> Deamons and Romney voters.
18:45:28 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24667 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2012-11-07 18:45:19 UTC)
18:45:29 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:30 <DorpsGek> latvian - 5 changes by Parastais
18:45:31 <DorpsGek> luxembourgish - 18 changes by Phreeze
18:45:32 <DorpsGek> spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
18:46:29 <frosch123> NGC3982: this is a europe dominated channel, who cares?
18:46:54 <NGC3982> It was not to be taken seriosly.
18:47:18 <NGC3982> Actually, do we have any american regular here at all? :)
18:47:33 <frosch123> not at this time of the day :)
18:47:46 <frosch123> but there are usually during 2am - 4am european time
18:48:12 <frosch123> anyway, i am actually jeally about you americans :)
18:48:34 <frosch123> campaigns are over for you, while they start here :p
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19:01:20 <Eddi|zuHause> "Today's big news: Roseanne lost the vote for president"
19:02:59 <Eddi|zuHause> "45,623 votes (around 0.1%)"
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19:24:55 <andythenorth> do you also lol if they're waving?
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20:05:39 <andythenorth> when did I start reading YT comments?
20:05:44 <andythenorth> can't be a good sign
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21:23:31 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24668 /trunk/src (3 files) (2012-11-07 21:23:26 UTC)
21:23:32 <DorpsGek> -Feature(ette) [FS#5311]: Draw cargo labels in the station list black or white depending on the background colour. (sbr)
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21:45:54 <FLHerne> Typical, I log on to ask andythenorth something and miss him by seconds :P
21:48:06 <drac_boy> was about 29 minutes btw :P
21:52:55 <Terkhen> FLHerne: convince him to set up an IRC bouncer
21:53:17 <planetmaker> Terkhen, he has an account on our bouncer. But discontinued to use it. Can't be bothered to have backlogs
21:53:27 <Rubidium> Zuu: well, Hannibal crossed the Alps years ago ;)
21:53:32 <FLHerne> Zuu: Any time period can be measured in seconds :D
21:53:35 <Terkhen> planetmaker: I know :)
21:53:56 <Terkhen> I just wanted to see what happens if someone tries that again :P
21:55:13 * Rubidium ponders what plural rules are with fractions
21:55:38 <Rubidium> is it 4/2 second or 4/2 seconds?
21:56:29 <Rubidium> oh darn it... Hannibal is 3rd century BC ;(
21:59:29 <blathijs> Rubidium: I suspect that's undefined behaviour ;-)
22:01:13 <frosch123> Rubidium: sounds like it just happened
22:01:26 <frosch123> (using astronomical units)
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22:02:44 <planetmaker> one astronomical unit = 149.597.870.700 metres. Not a time unit :-P
22:03:55 <frosch123> how many lightyears is that?
22:04:16 <Rubidium> 8-ish light minutes?
22:05:57 <Rubidium> just found out that fibre optics are slow
22:06:40 <planetmaker> it's not the speed of light in vacuum
22:06:54 <Chris_Booth> isn't it strange that a light year is a measure of distance and not time
22:06:59 <Rubidium> *if* you were to have a fibre optic cable of 1 AU, it would take 4 minutes longer for the sun's light to reach the other end
22:09:50 <Rubidium> so a ping Europe to Australia doesn't take only 140 ms, it takes a whopping 200 ms
22:10:20 <planetmaker> glx, not because of reflections. speed of light in matter just is slower.
22:10:33 <Rubidium> definitely the speed of the internet could be improved by 30% if we would just use vacuums instead of fibre optics
22:10:56 <frosch123> or if the internet would use tunnels through the center of earth
22:11:19 <Rubidium> there... 60% improvement ;)
22:11:20 <glx> not sure the distance would be shorter
22:13:04 <Rubidium> it'd be only 1/pi of the distance, wouldn't it?
22:13:42 <frosch123> you want the whole diameter, not only the radius
22:14:09 <Rubidium> definitely too late for trigonometry
22:14:42 <blathijs> So, this whole "internet with the speed of light" thing is really just untrue marketing crap?
22:15:05 <Rubidium> unless the speed of light can be achieved in copper
22:15:07 <planetmaker> no, not really. It's the speed of light
22:15:17 <planetmaker> it's just not the vacuum speed of light
22:15:22 <blathijs> Yeah, they didn't see "speed of light in vacuum"
22:15:28 <glx> it's still faster than what I can get with my copper line
22:15:29 <planetmaker> with the proper material you can slow it down to like 60km/h even
22:15:32 <frosch123> is it a lie by the marketing to sell it to customers
22:15:50 <frosch123> or is a lie by the engineers to convince their marketing
22:16:24 <blathijs> frosch123: I suspect most marketing guys nor engineers actually realize that they're lying
22:16:38 <Rubidium> is the speed of neutrino's higher than the speed of light?
22:17:11 <glx> hard to measure (as it's hard to find one :) )
22:17:31 <michi_cc> Probably, at least for the non-vacuum case. Neutrinos just interact so much less with matter :)
22:21:58 <Rubidium> apparantly rock salts have a speed of light of c/1.5
22:22:36 <Rubidium> the deviation of the OPERA experiment was in the range of 10^-6 away from c
22:23:00 <Rubidium> so... the neutrinos must have gone faster than the speed of light for rocks
22:23:16 <Rubidium> ... thus... faster than light travel has been proven
22:23:56 <planetmaker> Rubidium, it was proven to be an error ;-)
22:24:28 <Rubidium> planetmaker: I'm using the un-error-ed data
22:26:46 <Rubidium> but then... MINOS (2007): neutrino speed larger than 0.999976c and lower than 1.000126c
22:28:46 <Rubidium> anyhow, point is speed of neutrino in rock is roughly c. Speed of light in rock is roughly c/1.5
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22:29:41 <Rubidium> since c > c/1.5 I can claim neutrino's go faster than the speed of light (in rock)
22:30:19 <Rubidium> ... but since ISPs don't need to mention that speed of light is not by definition c, I wouldn't need to either ;)
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