IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-10-31
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01:27:43 <drac_boy> how're you cheesy? heh
01:28:42 <Supercheese> Well, 'twas a username I came up with when I was about 14, and I haven't seen a cause to change it since
02:21:05 <Flygon> Supercheese, welcome to the club
02:21:13 <Flygon> Had this name ever since I was 11!
02:21:26 <Flygon> And that's why I have such a ridiculous name
02:21:37 <Supercheese> Clearly Pokemon-inspired
02:21:42 <Supercheese> or well, directly Pokemon, even
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08:17:26 <NGC3982> The buzz around here gives me a headache
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10:12:17 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, for the record: i have a new job as of Feb :-P
10:12:29 <dihedral> hello by the way ;-)
10:14:50 <planetmaker> and... again a new job? :-) I surely hope you improve... in both satisfaction and salary :-)
10:16:46 <Terkhen> good morning everyone :P
10:18:17 <Ammler> he might need to feed a littled-ih then?
10:28:52 * drac_boy found the magazine with that article about the 9F locomotive and the photo of that one odd 2-2-2-2 locomotive that looked like it should had been a 2-4-2
10:31:37 <drac_boy> and it was like I thought... the 9F sure could run fast for a while till finally they were pulled out of such uses over fear of high rotational speed wears
10:31:52 <Eddi|zuHause> wait... an (1'A)(A1') locomotive? did they have 20m radius or something? :p
10:32:18 <drac_boy> at least 80mph .. which is quite fast for five large coupled axles tbh
10:32:23 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause one second let me turn pages...
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10:34:45 <drac_boy> oh sorry Eddi|zuHause was thinking of a bit different later locomotive .. this one is actually a 4-2-2-0 ... L&SWR e10. and quoting part of the description it says 'these complex and over-cylindered locomotives were capable of working heavy trains but few drivers could master their idiosyncrasies'
10:35:30 <drac_boy> at least it lasted from 1901 to 1926 so apparently it was ok
10:39:16 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, so the wheels were just uncoupled, not actually turnable
10:40:22 <drac_boy> only related thing I even know of was the short-lived LNER U1, and theres that somewhat famous story about them failing on the lickey incline only to be assisted by a big bertha .. giving you so many drive axles in one single train :-.
10:40:44 <drac_boy> other than the U1 I don't know of any standard gauge attempts in uk
10:41:26 <Eddi|zuHause> the germans had a "steam motor" engine (prototype only) with 4 uncoupled axles
10:42:14 <Eddi|zuHause> it was captured by the americans, moved to the USA, and because they didn't really have a use for it, scrapped it.
10:43:10 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause mm actually I think that one was on a site that listed strange steam locomotive but sadly their server has been 404 for a while
10:43:13 <Flygon> It's a shame so many interesting locomotives were scapped
10:43:20 <drac_boy> it looked a bit like the BR.05 in term of streamlining
10:43:58 <drac_boy> it had V pistons per axle .. sorta like a 2-cylinder gas engine
10:44:10 <drac_boy> other than that I don't recall more
10:44:10 <Flygon> So, they made a V2 Steam Engine?
10:44:20 <drac_boy> actually no flygon..
10:44:35 <drac_boy> it was V2 per axle .. so basically it was 4*V2 .. eight cylinders
10:44:50 <Flygon> Sorry, only just caught up to the discussion x3
10:45:45 <Eddi|zuHause> has some pictures
10:45:48 <drac_boy> they had a really poor life .. it was difficult to keep them fired hot enough so they were stuck to slow (as in less than 20mph) heavy train banking service till scrapped
10:45:55 <drac_boy> flygon...look close ... duh :p
10:46:44 <Flygon> Or is it a triplex?... my brain is so full of derp
10:46:58 <drac_boy> their problem back then was that you only could get so much psi out of a typical boiler these days ... hence why it never could work up enough running steam
10:47:50 <drac_boy> the funny thing tho is someone actually built a live scale steam locomotive example .. and it had like 400+psi boiler (the smaller size and more modern materials helps probably) ... it could run pretty well
10:47:53 <Flygon> It didn't click that it could be a triplex until I saw that third... valve? I forgot the name x.x
10:48:17 <drac_boy> I'm sure you could find the video of it online..its only a few years old
10:48:33 <Flygon> All we need is carbon nanotube boilers, then we'll get all the psi we want :D
10:48:46 <drac_boy> heh well the point was ... pre-1950s you had a lot of limits :)
10:48:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: you mean piston, probably
10:49:05 <drac_boy> and erie found out the hard way :p
10:49:18 <Flygon> Yep. Burning thousands of litres of oil just to get that absurd about of torque. B-)
10:49:28 <Flygon> Eddi: Whatever the box thing is...
10:49:42 <Flygon> Point is, my brain had a derp moment, didn't see the one near the tender
10:49:43 <drac_boy> flygon just so you know there were still a lot of good duplex designs..just some of them (mainly PRR's) were too late into dieselization to prove their life
10:50:03 <Flygon> The T1 was very interesting
10:50:31 <drac_boy> notice the way the middle is seperated on a rigid chassis
10:50:36 <Eddi|zuHause> does that tender have 8 axles?
10:50:50 <drac_boy> yeah .. it was typical for maximum capacity
10:50:51 <dihedral> <planetmaker> and... again a new job? :-) I surely hope you improve... in both satisfaction and salary :-) <- first at least in salary :-P
10:51:01 <drac_boy> UP had 4+12 axle tenders somewhere
10:51:04 <drac_boy> or something like that
10:51:32 <Flygon> America is full of crazy @.@
10:51:37 <Eddi|zuHause> the german 18 201 ("the fastest operational steam engine") nowadays runs with two tenders, because refilling stations are found sparsely
10:51:47 <dihedral> and at least the company is a bit bigger and they seem to take more care of their employees
10:52:03 <drac_boy> flygon these Q1's never had much life...to put it short...they were built then only a few years diesel orders were announced....blam these fine fast heavy locomotives are short-listed :|
10:52:22 <Flygon> Australia had the exact same scenario with Victorian railway
10:52:47 <Flygon> Basically, around 1952, they ordered a load of locomotives to replace a lot of WW1 era to pre-WW2 stock
10:52:53 <Flygon> Half-Diesel, half-Steam
10:53:00 <Flygon> Guess what half survives to this day
10:53:17 <Eddi|zuHause> they call it "the fear tender"
10:53:45 <Flygon> That's.... actually pretty clever
10:53:57 <drac_boy> btw flygon...tbh some of the usa tenders could get a bit crazy in term of size
10:54:09 <Eddi|zuHause> it's mostly about water, i presume
10:54:24 <Flygon> The very large locomotives have been of an odd interest of mine
10:54:25 <drac_boy> I know at least one example where a semi-presuperpower 4-8-4 had a typical 2-trucks tender with low top ... but guess what it eventually ended up with late in its life?
10:54:42 <drac_boy> it was a HUGE 6-axles monster that was almost as long as the locomotive itself 0_o
10:54:44 <Elukka> how do you get water from the second tender to the first?
10:54:53 <drac_boy> they must have had problem with express schedules and lack of fuel
10:54:58 <Eddi|zuHause> the hydrants that you usually find at stations nowadays only have very small water output, so it would take ages to refill
10:55:21 <drac_boy> and for the record... go look up how long an express 4-8-4 locomotive is on NYC
10:56:10 <drac_boy> it was an odd photo .. the locomotive almost looked overshadowed by its tender
10:57:23 <Flygon> Strangely, only 4-8-4 I've seen built locally, has a tender that's much smaller than the locomotive itself... and it was designed for interstate services (around 800-900km long)
10:57:33 <Flygon> Lots of high pressure water pumps?
10:57:43 <drac_boy> either way flygon theres something else I don't know much of .. but if you were looking through older drg photos and saw a tender that had raised coal bunker walls and a cover on top ... that was one of the few experinment done with pulverized coal which I suspect might had not worked out as well as they first thought
10:57:43 <Eddi|zuHause> <Flygon> Guess what half survives to this day <-- factoid: in the west german railways, the oil-fired steam engines survived longer, in the east german railways, the coal-fired steam engines survived longer
10:58:10 <drac_boy> the locomotive themself were conventional otherwise
10:58:28 <Flygon> drac: We experimented with pulverized coal here, too. I don't think anything really resulted, by recollection. Good or bad.
10:58:50 <Flygon> Coal was much cheaper in East Germany, I take it?
11:02:13 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, oil was rather cheap, because it came from russia. but in the west there was the "oil crisis", so the east rather sold the oil for high prices than use it themselves :)
11:02:13 <drac_boy> flygon btw would you like to know of a compound mallet that enjoyed a good life till finally escalting costs meant it was about time to consider retiring them? :)
11:02:13 <Flygon> Eddi: Hahaha, that's actually pretty smart
11:02:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the russians weren't quite that impressed, actually :)
11:02:13 <drac_boy> they were really good locomotive which explained why N&W refused diesels till the 1960s finally (due to costs)
11:02:13 <Flygon> drac: That's bloody massive
11:02:41 <Flygon> Eddi: The Russians tried to build a 4-14-4 locomotive, they have no excuse
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11:03:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: i mean about the selling-oil-thing
11:03:41 <Flygon> But I lacked any really good followup statements x3
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11:06:12 <Flygon> Most oil burning locomotives here were actually converted to it from coal..
11:06:46 <Flygon> It succeeded, they're still used in the same configuration :p
11:07:08 * drac_boy kinda rather prefer coal
11:08:10 <Flygon> Try finding an Australian un-lazy enough willing to shovel it :D
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11:09:28 <drac_boy> actually flygon australia had many coal fired garratts
11:10:32 <Flygon> I meant in modern use. Many R-class locomotives (Victoria) here have had been oil burning :p
11:10:39 <Flygon> But, I know what you mean
11:10:45 <Flygon> Historically... we ate coal for breafast :D
11:11:05 <drac_boy> flygon tbh I've always had something for garratts from either africa or australia tho
11:11:21 <drac_boy> theres just something about them especially the "unrestricted" fireboxes too
11:12:25 <Flygon> Which ones are you talking about? I should warn that I've been more privy of Victorian locomotives, compared to NSW, SA, and QLD...
11:12:27 <drac_boy> flygon just so you know what I mean..take a normal steam locomotive..the firebox has to sit just by the rear drive axle and over any tail axles .. but with a garratt .. theres nothing except track gauge restricting the firebox so it can be pretty wide and 'bottomless' deep
11:14:43 <Flygon> Ahh, I'm pretty sure I know what you're on about now x3
11:14:55 <Flygon> I can't recall how many VR locomotives were Garratt style
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11:16:56 <drac_boy> flygon and mind you it was the garratts that hauled the royal train once in a while back then in africa
11:17:28 <drac_boy> its almost the same thing with the canadian Hudson that earned them the royal logos and became Royal Hudson instead
11:17:35 <Flygon> Sleeper spacing on that line is atrociously spread apart, though :D
11:17:56 <drac_boy> well its only an artwork mind you
11:18:34 <drac_boy> white reminds me....
11:19:48 <Flygon> We had a Royal Train here...
11:20:07 <drac_boy> there was at least one train in usa that was named after a frictious white princess .. and the train was painted more or less white too ... they wanted to make it clear that their own locomotives ran on clean coal hence the lady was never dirty at all
11:20:20 <drac_boy> it lasted for quite a few years
11:21:16 <Flygon> I wouldn't bother trying to claim anything in Australia could ever be clean :p
11:21:18 <drac_boy> and btw flygon some of the trains in colorado used what they called Moffat Coal .. it was so clean that if you forgot to check your firebox once in a while you could be left with absolutely no fire at all because there was almost no ash at all
11:21:20 <Eddi|zuHause> the track looks weirdly asymmetric
11:21:49 <drac_boy> so yeah talk about not putting any new coal in later then wonder why theres no fire left anymore = !!!
11:22:07 <Flygon> eg. After a week of the VLocity trains running here, people painted flames. Into the dust accumulated into the front of the train.
11:22:41 <Flygon> drac: Hahaha, wow. That's insane!
11:22:49 <Flygon> Eddi: That was also painted in at some point
11:22:58 <drac_boy> flygon yeah .. theres not that many coal sources that had very little or no ash content :)
11:23:04 <Flygon> Also, it looks asymetric because it's on a diamond switch
11:23:26 <Flygon> I can imagine that coal is very expensive
11:24:04 <drac_boy> flygon of course theres the problem with cinder-like or all-cinker coals just as well tho
11:24:33 <drac_boy> nothing like a slow train finally stopping by the hill stalled due to no steam pressure and only small green/blue flames
11:24:35 <Flygon> Ah, no, it wasn't a VLocity
11:25:11 <Flygon> ...oh, that was an N-set
11:25:34 <Flygon> Z-set carriages are from the 50s, N-sets have been built from 1983 to 2012...
11:25:36 <drac_boy> one story I recall of was...such train finally found an old trackside junk piles ... they stopped there and hunted for old tires and some other miscs ... then got the train rolling again...FAST ... although later at the engine shed the whole firebox *stinked* of all that hot rubbers :)
11:25:51 <drac_boy> it took them a long time to clear out that firebox as the story said
11:26:21 <Flygon> That's... actually pretty smart
11:26:34 <drac_boy> Flygon yeah they were a bit despair for anything better than the unburnable coals they were stuck with
11:26:59 <drac_boy> the funny thing tho is... that locomotive in question was supposed to be retired soon .. the conductor joked that they had already re-tired it!
11:27:06 <drac_boy> such silly people heh
11:27:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: somehow that picture looks like a model
11:28:09 <Elukka> the platform looks unrealistic
11:28:14 <Flygon> I found what I was looking for
11:28:16 <Elukka> i think it's partially the perspective
11:28:45 <Flygon> wongm probably took the N-set photo from one of the overhead walkways. Hence, the odd perspective.
11:29:01 <drac_boy> flygon btw don't know if you ever heard of these kind of thing but could you imagine what it is like if the class of steam locomotives were originally built for one task but at some later date they got bumped off and so had to work somewhere only to find out they were so much better at that than their original task?
11:29:34 <Flygon> drac: It's happened here
11:29:45 <V453000> the WASH is awesome :D
11:29:51 <Flygon> Though, in some cases, it was out of necessity
11:30:00 <Flygon> Or because they just had spare locomotives
11:30:42 <drac_boy> flygon mm well some Frisco 4-8-4 were freight locomotives but then one day .. a passenger train failed with poor water injectors .. only locomotive nearby was guess what? and everyone took note when it accerlated the late train hard out of the station and made it on time .. a few days later several of them were reassigned to passenger service for good
11:31:08 <drac_boy> or the UP FEF (as in their modern 4-8-4) having had been more of a passenger locomotive but when that was taken by diesels they found good life with heavy fast freights instead
11:31:11 <Flygon> We've had the same happen here with Diesel locomotives...
11:31:54 <Flygon> Since the passenger lines here have a low top speed anyway, VR/V/Line have reassigned some of their (then) freight locomotives to passenger services... and it ran like a perfect charm
11:32:36 <Flygon> Ahh, yeah, the H-class here also ended up with a passenger-to-freight reassignment
11:32:52 <Flygon> Which was also a 4-8-4 locomotive (biggest in Australia)
11:33:03 <drac_boy> flygon oh and btw one small commuter railroad actually used some old alco diesels ... they only could do 45mph max but that didn't matter too much against their crazy accerlation. they fit in really well with all the close-spaced stations at the time after all
11:33:27 <drac_boy> eventually there were no more carbody diesels working these routes anymore..all taken over by the "freight" alco units :)
11:33:27 <Flygon> The line it was built for didn't get upgraded for WWII, though. So it got reassigned to the NE line for heavy-freight haulage. Not bad for what ended up being the only Steam H-class locomotive.
11:34:41 <drac_boy> flygon..yeah so basically it went like this..stop at station....then notch 8 ... soon its hitting the 45mph limiter .. .then soon there goes the brakes ... stop ... repeat
11:34:51 <drac_boy> they coudl restart hard indeed
11:34:59 <Flygon> That would never happen in Victoria...
11:35:45 <drac_boy> btw flygon I don't recall any details but I do remember at least one commuter train was actually assigned steam power (and it wasn't a big boiler neither) once in a while .. and it still could stick to the same strict timetables with ease surprisingly
11:35:46 <Flygon> All our stuff accelerates like a slug, the station spacing is often far apart for non-Metro lines, and the top speed basically everywhere is 100-115km/h
11:36:05 <Flygon> Reassigned from Diesel to Steam?
11:36:46 <drac_boy> think so, it was like in the 90's or later as it was standard colour video
11:36:54 <drac_boy> let me see if I can find it
11:37:05 <Flygon> Yes, that was probably an R-class locomotive
11:37:14 <Flygon> They were designed for express passenger in the 1950s
11:37:39 <drac_boy> yeah looks like it I think :)
11:37:39 <Flygon> They are actually pretty powerful, V/Line used them for 'driver training'
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11:38:10 <Flygon> But I'm pretty sure everyone knows it's because they were far more powerful than V/Line's T/P class locomotives, and could go faster
11:38:19 <drac_boy> flygon heh well I didn't till now :P
11:39:04 <drac_boy> flygon its not the locomotive themself so much but theres one particular small feature in japan I sorta find interesting..
11:39:10 <Flygon> The R-class was also used by West Coast Railway in the 1990s to 2005, often oil burning
11:39:37 <Flygon> For a 350-400kmish express journey
11:40:09 <drac_boy> if you see a steam locomotive with "eyes" then it was a locomotive built for service up north where winters can be quite heavy ... basically rather than a single headlight by smokestack they had one "clipped" to each smoke deflectors .. giving them the nickname
11:40:31 <Flygon> This actually became very maintainence intensive for WCR, because they kept melting the internals of the engines, and they were very very noisy
11:40:39 <drac_boy> two lights were better than one they recokened .. and that seem to hold true
11:41:16 <Flygon> And when they ran a test run on the Bendigo line (at line speed), they emerged from one of the tunnels it entered with bricks on it... the steam outputted was that strongly forced
11:41:27 <Flygon> 2 headlights makes a lot of sense
11:41:49 <Flygon> Especially when you're somewhere where there'd be lots of fog...
11:42:02 <drac_boy> flygon and naturally japan also kept steam for longer in general than everyone else so a steam-hauled container train was not too strange over there
11:42:21 <drac_boy> part of that problem was because they were slow to develop diesels so steam stayed out a long time on light lines
11:42:23 <Flygon> ...heck, the VLocity trains here use 4 headlights, because fog + 160km/h + level crossings...
11:42:34 <Flygon> I was surprised to learn Japan ever used Diesels
11:42:50 <Flygon> Because I assumed they used 1500V and 25kV AC electrification everywhere
11:43:07 <drac_boy> it took them some time to finally make the DD15 and other alike locomotives which had light axles ... some people have said they were the "geep" of japan .. which is true because these locos could handle any trains including 2-carriages passenger too
11:43:28 <drac_boy> that was the final bite into steam
11:44:31 <Flygon> Wait, what exactly do you mean by slow to develop Diesel?
11:44:36 <drac_boy> mind you the DD15 had something that was a bit unique for its time .. the middle idle axle (it was A1A trucks fyi) could be raised or lowered as needed so...
11:45:10 <drac_boy> so yeah it could run more or less as a heavy 4-axle diesel on most lines but then when it came to a short freight on old branchlines it ran more as 6-axle with that weight spreading out by then
11:45:25 <drac_boy> flygon..if it was powered it wouldn't be an A1A but a C :p
11:45:39 <Flygon> My foam lacks the force of yours :p
11:45:49 <drac_boy> only in the last few years is usa finally trying out the idea of raiseable axles .. goes to show how early japan was
11:46:15 <drac_boy> around the 60-80's I think .. I forgot exactly
11:46:23 <drac_boy> but usa is only finally trying it in 2010 .. go figure
11:46:40 <Flygon> Japan developed stuff out of necessity
11:46:50 <Flygon> The USA hasn't seen the need...
11:47:08 <drac_boy> flygon btw japan also has that interesting thing where passenger trains own the lines and freight trains have to get permission to run on it ... unlike most other places where its the freights that own and maintain the tracks
11:47:28 <Flygon> Here, the Government owns tracks
11:47:39 <drac_boy> so thats why you might find a lot of overpowered short freights .. only because they have to slot inbetween all the passenger trains which means fast accerlations is a necessarity
11:47:45 <Flygon> Except for some mining ones in WA...
11:48:17 <drac_boy> nothing like seeing a big 6-axles 3000+hp electric locomotive with only six tank wagons on a very tight schedule :)
11:48:38 <drac_boy> but japan still does have longer freight trains .. they just run on less traffikied lines instead
11:49:13 <Flygon> I still find it funny to see locomotives of horsepowers over 2,500hp...
11:49:16 <drac_boy> flygon btw they still do it but a lot of the times the branch freight trains are top&tail by two DD15's .. one on front, one on rear - both always working
11:49:28 <Flygon> Victoria has really weak-ass locomotives :B
11:49:36 <drac_boy> then again certain routes have no turn-around faculity tho
11:49:54 <Flygon> Ah, so they push-pull?
11:50:03 <Flygon> That makes perfect sense
11:51:04 <drac_boy> flygon one other thing that I think is only 'common' in japan...
11:51:51 <Flygon> (we push pull with locomotives on passenger services here... but it's because the locomotives are sooo weak, and need to be able to reach 100km fast enough to keep on timetable :p)
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11:54:02 <drac_boy> it makes sense... the wiper is always moving all the times so its too easy to keep it clear .. compared to normal wiper which have to stop ... move other way .. stop .. which can cause problems :)
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11:55:21 <Flygon> That's pretty clever. I never thought of circular whipers
11:56:27 <drac_boy> flygon well these very diesels were the ones assigned to plow duty a lot of the times as well
11:56:47 <Flygon> Japan needs snow plows...
11:57:00 <drac_boy> thats a DD15 there mind you
11:57:15 <Flygon> To be fair. It is a pretty darn big plow!
11:57:26 <Flygon> Doesn't hurt to give extra warnin
11:57:37 <drac_boy> btw if you're wondering..that one specific plow is used for multi-track lines .. it can shove everyong off to one single side one moment then shove in a equal V shape other moment
11:57:54 <drac_boy> thats why the long red arm pole
11:59:29 <andythenorth> Yexo: I have a directory of files with clean industry properties :)
11:59:38 <drac_boy> how do you like THAT flygon?
11:59:43 <Flygon> Japan: Efficient as hell
12:00:24 <drac_boy> and again the moveable side plates are so it can "squeeze" to fit down station platform tracks .. then swing wide open as soon as its out of the station
12:00:44 <drac_boy> the flickr or the wiki one?
12:01:18 <drac_boy> may be your browser doesn't like the foreign "o" letter in the name tho
12:01:37 <Flygon> I must be running in ASCII mode...
12:02:27 <drac_boy> don't mind my silly tag name ^
12:02:40 <Flygon> My browser doesn't like it @.@
12:02:43 <drac_boy> its a snowblower so :P
12:02:50 <drac_boy> hm what you using anyway?
12:03:05 <Flygon> I've seen far far worse innuendo :p
12:03:08 <drac_boy> theres the problem..your browser doesn't even understand 8859-1 or utf-8 neither
12:03:30 <drac_boy> hm well don't know of any other image sources sorry
12:03:52 * drac_boy needs to go eat anyway
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12:20:41 <drac_boy> flygon I'm a bit surprised that chrome has no idea how to deal with 8859-1 charsets tho .. makes you wonder if chrome is unpopular in europe for that reason
12:20:57 <Flygon> Chrome is very very very popular in Australia...
12:21:12 <Flygon> How well does Chrome handle Asian charsets?
12:21:45 <drac_boy> even IE5.1 which dates 1996 can deal with everything including chinese
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12:22:26 <Flygon> This be the first time I've really had Chrome break
12:22:42 <peter1138> ō isn't in iso-8859-1
12:23:01 <drac_boy> it was the most famous locomotive for some time
12:23:51 <Flygon> I know I recognize it, though
12:24:04 <Flygon> Sorry, getting tired, hahaha
12:24:26 <drac_boy> the curved bottom was interesting
12:24:45 <Flygon> ....that looks almost exactly like an S-class with Spirit of Progress shell
12:26:11 <Flygon> How many wheels is that on the tender?
12:26:45 <drac_boy> its only a bit smaller than the ones UP used
12:27:30 <drac_boy> anyway flygon if you're around another time we should talk more ok? :P I need to go for a while now
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12:36:57 * andythenorth has committed one of the sins
12:37:04 <andythenorth> using python to write python code
12:38:48 <Terkhen> why is that a sin? :P
12:38:58 <andythenorth> BECAUSE IT'S MADNESS :)
12:40:50 <andythenorth> anyway, FIRS economies are probably not far away
12:40:57 <andythenorth> I have work to do right now
12:41:10 <andythenorth> if anybody fancies copy and paste of 49 blocks of code, that would help
12:41:53 <andythenorth> probably soothing
13:02:31 <Yexo> andythenorth: I did the conversion of the spritelayouts for the fruit plantation yesterday from pypnml to .py
13:02:41 <andythenorth> I went to the pub
13:02:42 <Yexo> not sure if it's a big improvement, but at least it's python code now
13:03:02 <Yexo> those spritelayouts still need to be simplified / rewritten I think
13:03:34 <NGC3982> andythenorth: Can we mindless normal people help you with your FIRS work in any way?
13:24:40 <planetmaker> source code under source control
13:25:19 <NGC3982> It seems to be beyond my grasp of the order of things.
13:25:58 <andythenorth> you won't be able to help then :P
13:26:09 <andythenorth> literally someone needs to copy and paste from 49 files to 49 other files
13:27:06 <andythenorth> I don't have a reliable insertion point for the paste
13:27:16 <andythenorth> and I have never figured out regexp
13:27:51 <Ammler> well, if you think, someone just could do copy&paste, then scripting should work too
13:28:56 <planetmaker> Ammler, sometimes it's significantly easier to explain a logic than code the same. Human pattern matching is damn good
13:29:30 <planetmaker> otherwise captchas wouldn't work
13:29:43 <planetmaker> (well, they don't, but...) :-P
13:30:00 <andythenorth> Ammler: do you want to try? :)
13:31:19 <Ammler> well, if you explain, you might have setup the script :-P
13:31:32 <andythenorth> easier than that
13:32:43 <Ammler> planetmaker: so it is copy&paste&edit?
13:33:50 <andythenorth> as parameters to the call that instantiates Industry()
13:34:01 <andythenorth> and ideally format whitespace :P
13:34:06 <andythenorth> repeat that for all 49 industries
13:34:40 <andythenorth> l18 has the instantiation
13:34:41 <Ammler> you have a finished example?
13:34:59 <andythenorth> nope but I could
13:36:58 * andythenorth waits for slow connection
13:38:16 <andythenorth> somebody may wish to improve my python formatting :P
13:38:24 <andythenorth> I often format python as though it's html
13:38:38 <dada_> ohh sorry I'm stupid, I realize now it just adds the regular road and the streetcar track..
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13:56:24 <Ammler> andythenorth: why don't you include that file there?
13:56:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just don't mix tabs and spaces, the rest should be irrelevant :)
13:58:00 <Ammler> also it looks like every <industry>.py looks the same
13:58:07 <NGC3982> Lunch? I thought you where in Europe?
13:58:21 <NGC3982> What on earth has happend to my clock.
13:58:27 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: winter time
13:58:29 <NGC3982> 18:56 < NGC3982> What.
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14:10:21 <andythenorth> Ammler: it would be a bit of a strange place to do an import :)
14:10:27 <andythenorth> (into the industry file)
14:16:49 <Ammler> wouldn't it also make edit of the probs easier?
14:18:07 <krinn> andythenorth, why not just cat file >> filecontentadded
14:19:02 <Eddi|zuHause> why not simply parse the file, with like an .ini parser or similar
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14:37:39 <krinn> you just wish add content of fileA at end of fileB no ?
14:40:19 <Ammler> and I also not sure, if he likes to replace it at change
14:41:59 <Yexo> and it could've been done manually in the time you all spent discussing it ;)
14:42:17 <andythenorth> I'm going to c+p it :)
14:42:20 <andythenorth> but this was fun :)
14:42:34 <Ammler> Yexo: that is the worst excuse of not scripting it :-P
14:42:59 <krinn> if last lines never change, add that fixed stuff in another file cat it again
14:43:15 <Yexo> that depends if you want to have fun scripting it or be productive :)
14:43:23 <andythenorth> I (yexo) already scripted parsing the values out of the nml files ;)
14:43:33 <andythenorth> which has saved most of the time
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14:44:06 <Ammler> Yexo: well, it also depends if the result is really what you want
14:44:46 <Ammler> andythenorth: how did you make those probs files?
14:44:54 <andythenorth> via 2 python scripts
14:45:14 <andythenorth> and some manual editing
14:46:01 <andythenorth> Ammler: feel free to script - I won't be able to copy and paste it before tonight ;)
14:46:13 <andythenorth> if I script it, might not save time compared to c+p
14:46:21 <andythenorth> if you script it....definitely saves me time ;)
14:46:34 <krinn> industry.render_and_save_pnml() and few comments upper are always the same on every file ?
14:46:47 <krinn> then put that into fileC
14:47:09 <krinn> and cat fileA >> fileB then cat fileC >> fileB
14:47:29 <andythenorth> how do I get it into fileC?
14:47:46 <krinn> copy/paste, but done 1 time to build it
14:48:35 <Ammler> you could also split it and cat again
14:48:55 <Ammler> but some .py files seems to have other content
14:49:11 <Ammler> I wouldn't even be able to do it via c&p
14:49:45 <krinn> or tag it with CONTENT_ADD and sed to replace that with another file content
14:50:05 <Ammler> krinn: if you need to open the file you could as good paste it
14:50:56 <krinn> you don't need to open it to insert a line (if place to insert it is always at the same line number)
14:51:25 <krinn> but like good scripting, if he is trying to add random thing, at random position, with random value : lol better going by hands
14:51:50 <Ammler> yes, I just wondered, why he thought, someone could do it too
14:52:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd make Industry.__init__() add itself to an industry list, and then "for industry in industry_list: industry.render()"
14:52:20 <Ammler> because if that would have been true, ti would be scriptable
14:52:30 <Eddi|zuHause> then you can leave it out of all the <industry>.py files
14:54:42 <Eddi|zuHause> that is pretty close to what CETS does, except i start out with a list instead of make the objects manually
14:58:32 <Eddi|zuHause> CETS is not really object oriented
14:59:17 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe some things would be cleaner if it was
14:59:41 <krinn> i would cut this to : add last comomn lines in fileC, head -n 20 all files, and just cat a >> b cat c >> b
15:00:11 <krinn> so cut them in two parts, and reassemble them, easier way imo
15:05:46 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I'll probably end up with an industry list yes
15:05:51 <andythenorth> this is duck-taped currently
15:06:41 <SkeedR> Just trying to download the zbase baseset but the site seems to be down...
15:07:03 <andythenorth> I had some 'add object to list' stuff, and alberth didn't like it when he reviewed my code (too magical) :P
15:08:34 <Eddi|zuHause> it's certainly not more magical than openttd's pool items :)
15:11:04 <andythenorth> I know a non-magical way to do it :P
15:11:29 <andythenorth> I'd need to change all my foo.py industry files, so that they can be imported without executing
15:12:32 <andythenorth> __main__ or whatever :P
15:13:01 <SkeedR> is there a setting I can change somewhere to tell ottd where to download stuff to?
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15:25:42 <Yexo> SkeedR: move your config file and start openttd with -c path_to_config/openttd.cfg
15:25:58 <Yexo> iirc it'll store savegames / downloaded content relative to that directory
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15:55:50 <SkeedR> Banned from tycoon eh...
15:57:09 <LordAro> that's nice - he quit before being banned :)
15:57:26 <planetmaker> why would he be banned?
15:58:18 <LordAro> since you're not on there :)
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15:59:21 <SkeedR> what's up with openttdcoop.org?
15:59:43 <LordAro> no idea, i just go there for logs :)
15:59:46 <planetmaker> server has issues... waiting for manual reset
16:00:46 <LordAro> oh, right... ignore me... :L
16:02:04 <planetmaker> this migration works badly... a broken mainboard in the server didn't speed up our testing either. I'm sorry
16:03:29 <SkeedR> No problem, I can wait ;)
16:06:39 <SkeedR> funnily ieee.org also appers to be down
16:07:58 <planetmaker> seems we're back :-)
16:41:12 <Ammler> do I see the ID of a content somwhere on the web? "[2012-10-31 16:36:47] Completed download of 2350"
16:41:38 <Ammler> or somewhere else to know what that content could be?
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16:44:10 <Ammler> how do you use content select id ?
16:46:43 <Ammler> does someone use the console command content without downloading all?
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18:04:35 <RavingManiac> It took joining a multiplayer game
18:04:51 <RavingManiac> for me to realise how I had been playing this game horribly, horribly wrong
18:09:21 <DanMacK> There's really no 'right' or 'wrong' waybto bplay
18:09:41 <planetmaker> the right way to play is the way you have fun to play
18:12:32 <RavingManiac> The Wrong way to play is to make all your train lines "point A to B"
18:13:53 <RavingManiac> It's not in the spirit of the game...
18:15:11 <andythenorth> when I played TTD as a kid, everybody built 4 track stations
18:15:16 <andythenorth> with 4 lines connecting them
18:15:22 <andythenorth> no crossings, no signals
18:15:46 <RavingManiac> anyway, when were path signals introduced?
18:22:04 <planetmaker> a few years back. A few years back further they were removed. And even further back another implementation was introduced
18:37:59 <NGC3982> Im actually back at "A to B"
18:38:23 <NGC3982> Was a bit fed up on ultra-powered-phantom-order schedules.
18:39:09 <DanMacK> I start with A to B and expand on that
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18:43:39 <keoz> it is not possible to load a newgrf in an already started game ?
18:44:22 <andythenorth> but only if you're a newgrf developer
18:45:04 <planetmaker> keoz, warranty void, if newgrfs changed ;-)
18:45:05 <keoz> that means, there is some command in the console which lets do it :-)
18:45:45 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24654 /trunk/src/lang (6 files) (2012-10-31 18:45:33 UTC)
18:45:46 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:47 <DorpsGek> belarusian - 6 changes by KorneySan
18:45:48 <DorpsGek> italian - 6 changes by lorenzodv
18:45:49 <DorpsGek> latvian - 6 changes by Parastais
18:45:50 <DorpsGek> norwegian_bokmal - 14 changes by jhsoby
18:45:51 <DorpsGek> russian - 1 changes by KorneySan
18:45:52 <DorpsGek> ukrainian - 16 changes by edd_k
18:46:00 <keoz> planetmaker : I don't take a to great risk, I think :-)
18:46:40 <planetmaker> keoz, you risk to crash openttd and irrevocably damage your savegame beyond repair
18:46:57 <planetmaker> take your chance, thus
18:47:09 <DanMacK> So save it then screw with it
18:47:39 <Jake> keoz: Not by using the console, but by changing a config file value. And I've been doing it since before it was disabled by default and never had a problem, but it's best to err on the side of caution if you've spent hours getting your scenario just right.
18:47:57 <planetmaker> Jake, and changing config can be done via console ;-)
18:48:28 <keoz> Jake : that's the point. I remember it was possible, when I used to play (about 2 years ago)
18:49:15 <planetmaker> keoz, scenario developer might suffice for your needs. Unless you really want to develop newgrfs
18:50:03 <keoz> newgrf_developer_tools = false
18:50:23 <keoz> planetmaker : actually, I didnt think in changing it in the scenario editor
18:50:51 <planetmaker> doesn't matter, keoz
18:50:56 <keoz> i'll do that. But i'm also gonna change the grf setting. I'm curious
18:51:02 <planetmaker> use scenario_editor nonetheless
18:51:20 <planetmaker> editor? developer, I think. whatever
18:52:34 <keoz> and thank you for making a such great game (btw)
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19:55:02 <drac_boy> or him failing to wake up from the keyboard...anyone else interested in steam locomotive talks too? :)
20:14:26 <andythenorth> time for 49x copy and paste
20:18:36 <andythenorth> Alberth: is it bad to use **kwargs simply because I can't be bothered to specify all params?
20:18:47 <andythenorth> (for an _init_ )
20:19:32 <Alberth> Python believes explicit is better than implicit
20:20:05 <andythenorth> what a lot of code :P
20:20:25 <Zuu> 49x c&p sounds like you need either a preprocessor or a macro in your code editor.
20:20:25 <Alberth> you can give a dict as parameter of course :p
20:21:02 <Zuu> Or write a python script to write the code :-p
20:21:15 <andythenorth> also I can set defaults neatly with explicit params
20:21:53 <Alberth> you can also set them all to some default, and then override them with assignments later
20:24:08 <Yexo> <Zuu> 49x c&p sounds like you need either a preprocessor or a macro in your code editor. <- it's from 49 different files to 49 other files
20:44:18 <andythenorth> and it's done :)
20:44:22 <andythenorth> doesn't bloody complie
20:50:38 <andythenorth> I'm going to need to find default values for all industry props
20:50:46 <andythenorth> or we could sing a song instead
20:52:13 <andythenorth> anybody want to put 49 * 26 parameters into a neat and tidy order?
20:52:14 <NGC3982> About moustaches and jam.
20:52:40 <andythenorth> you'll need a checkout
20:52:43 * NGC3982 could use vbs with excel for that.
20:53:01 <andythenorth> Alberth: I'd have to write a script to write my script
20:53:14 <andythenorth> I prefer the mechanical turk method :P
20:53:32 <andythenorth> actually I could do something insanely ugly with string.split
20:53:50 <andythenorth> if property name in line
20:53:57 <andythenorth> push to a dict, rejoin
20:54:15 * NGC3982 spends half his days sorting huge csv documents.
20:54:25 <DorpsGek> Commit by alberth :: r24655 trunk/src/company_gui.cpp (2012-10-31 20:54:19 UTC)
20:54:26 <DorpsGek> -Codechange(r18310): Difference between female and male is no longer needed for tie and earrings (found by botankras)
20:54:55 <andythenorth> NGC3982: do you offer contract services? :P
20:55:03 <Alberth> NGC3982: just make nice stacks :)
20:55:12 <NGC3982> Alberth: Yes, that's the point.
20:55:38 <NGC3982> I work with marketing, and most of my Office work is related to cleaning and sorting addressee lists.
20:55:57 <andythenorth> write a python script to do it
20:56:15 * andythenorth ponders what to do next
20:56:24 <NGC3982> That doesn't sound like much.
20:56:55 <NGC3982> What's the build-up? How do you want it sorted?
20:58:38 * NGC3982 also notes that "What's the build-up" is a Sinatra line from 1960's Ocean's Eleven.
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21:14:40 <Eddi|zuHause> <DorpsGek> -Codechange(r18310): Difference between female and male is no longer needed for tie and earrings (found by botankras) <-- hasn't this gender-egalitarian stuff gone too far meanwhile? :p
21:16:39 <Alberth> apparently not since 2009, but we never notived it
21:28:05 * andythenorth wonders what nml does if an item property is ''
21:28:13 <andythenorth> empricism would know the answer :P
21:29:42 <peter1138> i remember the old days
21:29:56 <peter1138> of setting the same property for multiple ids in a single action 0
21:30:01 <andythenorth> I remember coding nfo without escapes :(
21:30:04 <andythenorth> and no templating
21:30:27 <andythenorth> and counting bytes
21:30:35 <andythenorth> not knowing about nforenum
21:30:43 <peter1138> and reading "commented" code, by george ;)
21:31:00 <andythenorth> I commented it as though it was python
21:31:12 <andythenorth> incorrectly apparently
21:31:17 <andythenorth> worked though :P
21:31:20 <andythenorth> young people today
21:31:24 <andythenorth> don't know how lucky they are
21:34:13 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r24656 /branches/1.2 (4 files in 3 dirs) (2012-10-31 21:34:07 UTC)
21:34:14 <DorpsGek> [1.2] -Update: some documentation
21:38:43 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r24657 /tags/1.2.3 (10 files in 4 dirs) (2012-10-31 21:38:37 UTC)
21:40:32 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r24658 /trunk (5 files in 3 dirs) (2012-10-31 21:40:26 UTC)
21:40:33 <DorpsGek> -Merge: release documentation updates from 1.2
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22:45:22 <Zuu> scp is really cool. I'm currently preparing a new NoCarGoal release with scp support. My test AI now have full information about which cargos that are goal cargos.
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23:46:15 <Eddi|zuHause> tor 3 oder den roten umschlag?
23:46:39 <Ammler> #das ist doch keine Hexerei
23:48:25 <Eddi|zuHause> great... now i've got the "zonk" sound stuck in my head...
continue to next day ⏵
