IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-10-09
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01:22:51 <hmmwhatsthisdo> How might I reverse an extra zoom patch on an oTTD install that was upgraded from 1.1.x to 1.2.2?
01:24:49 <hmmwhatsthisdo> Should I just reinstall?
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04:33:45 <Rubidium> hmmwhatsthisdo: if you want that 'old' extra zoom patch then you have to reinstall that old version
04:34:09 <Rubidium> hmmwhatsthisdo: however, extra zoom is now in the official release
04:34:48 <hmmwhatsthisdo> Rubidium: I need to get rid of it, I think I might've stashed an old NewGRF somewhere and now it's making ridiculously high zoom levels
04:35:52 <hmmwhatsthisdo> I'm tempted to just reinstall it
04:36:06 <Rubidium> did you compile OpenTTD yourself?
04:37:30 <Rubidium> if you didn't then the patch from 1.1.x can't have been 'transfered' to 1.2.2
04:37:48 <Rubidium> so you are just using the default extra zoom feature
04:38:18 <Rubidium> if you think you're zooming in too far, there is an advanced setting to limit the amount of zoom in and zoom out
04:39:31 <hmmwhatsthisdo> well, I'm not worried that much about the zoom itself, I'm more worried about the significant drop in fast-forward speed, which was much higher before upgrading
04:40:01 <hmmwhatsthisdo> (I assumed the two might be related)
04:40:50 <Rubidium> I have no idea whether they are related; they might be, but it's hard to be certain
04:41:07 <Rubidium> nevertheless changing the maximum zoom in might help
04:42:30 <hmmwhatsthisdo> just tried it, no dice
04:50:48 <Rubidium> have you used any NewGRFs? If so, which ones exactly?
04:52:13 <Rubidium> might be that one enabled 32bpp which might be significantly slower
04:53:14 <Supercheese> wait, if a grf enables 32bpp it might significantly slow down OTTD?
04:53:25 <Supercheese> just by enabling?
04:53:36 <Supercheese> or does it have to also have larger sprite (file)sizes?
04:54:23 <Rubidium> that, and hardware accelerated sprite recolouring is faster than software
04:56:23 <Rubidium> a long time ago I did a test; 8bpp non-animated was roughly as fast as 8bpp animated, but 32bpp non-animated was significantly faster than 32bpp animated (and IIRC 32bpp non-animated was only slightly slower than 32bpp animated)
04:57:03 <Rubidium> in any case, a few years ago we had these kinds of complaints from OS X users about the (perceived) slowing of fast forward
04:58:00 <Rubidium> just around the time 32bpp-animated became default for OS X due to them removing hardware accelerated 8bpp from their hardware/software without their APIs returning "I can't do that"
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05:17:55 <hmmwhatsthisdo> Rubidium: No 32bpp NewGRFs
05:18:37 <hmmwhatsthisdo> though, my laptop uses a 32bpp base set and is noticeably faster, I wonder if the same case as what you mentioned is happening here
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06:57:19 <dostoj> hi! I've downloaded CityBuilder.tar from bananas. I put it into ./openttd/game (using linux). How do I run the script?
06:57:36 <dostoj> It won't show up anywhere in the game file chooser
06:58:04 <Supercheese> try AI/Gamescript settings
06:58:31 <dostoj> yes, i can see it there
06:58:52 <Supercheese> select the game script, start a new game
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10:04:39 <NGC3982> What - in reality - does the town campaigns do?
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10:05:32 <NGC3982> The Wiki states: "temporarily raise(s) nearby station ratings"
10:08:22 <Pinkbeast> That's my understanding. (But that can mean, as well as more cargo, better relations with the town, which is a constant bleeding ulcer any time you look at a tree funny...)
10:09:09 <NGC3982> It would be nice to see the actual mechanics behind it.
10:09:49 <NGC3982> Since (if it's more than just station rating) it seems a bit vague.
10:10:56 <Pinkbeast> I am not aware of any suggestion it is more than just station rating.
10:22:08 <peter1138> The source is out there...
10:24:14 <__ln__> peter1138: off-topic question: would you say that in "x = (int) y" y is casted to int?
10:25:35 <peter1138> No, it's cast to int.
10:27:15 <TyrHeimdal> Is there a place I can suggest features for the game?
10:27:48 <peter1138> I would suggest the forums.
10:28:03 <__ln__> #elsewhere i saw a native english speaker using 'casted' as the past tense. and he agreed it should be 'cast' when i asked about it, but he hadn't thought about it until then.
10:28:13 <NGC3982> peter1138: The source?
10:29:11 <__ln__> so i was wondering if "to cast" in programming context is perhaps subconsciously considered to be a different verb than the usual kind of "to cast".
10:31:12 <peter1138> There's more than one meaning of cast without the programming sense.
10:32:00 <peter1138> There's cast as in thrown or projected, and as in casting a fishing line.
10:32:43 <peter1138> Then there is cast as in an actor is cast in a role. That meaning probably fits the programming sense too.
10:37:47 <__ln__> does it have anything to do with the caste system of e.g. india?
10:38:44 <peter1138> I find that unlikely.
10:41:03 <NGC3982> Afaik, "to cast" in Swenglish is to set a variable to a value.
10:41:06 <NGC3982> Or something like that
10:41:50 <peter1138> You know incorrectly...
10:42:34 <NGC3982> I have no idea, i have just overheard someone saying it.
10:42:59 <peter1138> Swenglish refering to...?
10:43:16 <NGC3982> Swedes using english slang.
10:43:27 <__ln__> Then there's the concept of 'integer promotion', which somehow implies that one type is better than the other, like with castes.
10:43:35 <TyrHeimdal> OK, so i suggested a feature in the forums! wohoo! :D
10:43:50 <peter1138> Give it a few minutes for it to be shot down :-)
10:44:30 <TyrHeimdal> peter1138: no worries, I know how forums work ^^
10:44:48 <__ln__> Swenglish would be quite a nice term also for swedes attempting to speak English. :) They tend to mix Swedish words or Swedish-like spelling into English.
10:44:49 <TyrHeimdal> in case anyone was wondering what it was
10:45:28 <NGC3982> __ln__: Indeed. Like "headshotta" > "to make a headshot".
10:45:37 <NGC3982> It's very normal in online gaming lingo, afaik.
10:45:57 <peter1138> The correct term for that is HEADSHOT!
10:46:18 <TyrHeimdal> you must be joking...it's "BOOM! HEADSHOT!"
10:46:35 <NGC3982> M-m-m-m-m-monster kill! \o/
10:47:00 <TyrHeimdal> reminds me, I should rewatch pure pwnage
10:47:28 <TyrHeimdal> it's just silly :P
10:47:34 <Terkhen> TyrHeimdal: there is a patch for close airports
10:47:52 <TyrHeimdal> how did I miss that?
10:48:15 <Terkhen> I think that it was committed but I'm not sure
10:48:44 <Terkhen> failed a "close airport" forum search? :P
10:49:01 <TyrHeimdal> I failed at spelling ><
10:49:16 <__ln__> TyrHeimdal: you misspelled "than" as "then", and "break" as "brake" in your post.
10:49:54 <Terkhen> check the patch thread for details, start by the end just in case it is committed
10:50:13 <Terkhen> blame my poor memory if it is not
10:50:27 <TyrHeimdal> __ln__: thanks, fixed. English isn't my native tounge
10:55:08 <Guest1119> well, yes, play nightly OpenTTD, TyrHeimdal ;-)
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10:55:48 <TyrHeimdal> planetmaker: yeap, just saw it :D
10:56:32 <TyrHeimdal> hmm, don't know exactly how to phrase this question, but I'll give it a go.
10:57:32 <TyrHeimdal> What's the "best" way to exploit the industries. build railways between the closest providers to the closest users? or build large infrastructures to transport it to a central factory/sawmill/whatnot and distribute it from there?
10:57:55 <planetmaker> what is your definition of "best"? :-)
10:58:44 <planetmaker> what's your scale you measure it by?
10:58:49 <TyrHeimdal> that's why I didn't know exactly how to ask ^^
10:59:15 <planetmaker> Money? fun? points? amount of cargo per unit time? amount of vehicles needed (few / many)? transport modes used?
10:59:38 <TyrHeimdal> fun and efficiensy perhaps
10:59:45 <planetmaker> as there's no definition of "best" which suits all people, many answers can be right. Which even are mutually exclusive
10:59:58 <TyrHeimdal> planetmaker: I like you :)
11:00:48 <planetmaker> generally, you usually make more money, if you transport goods over large(r) distances
11:00:56 <planetmaker> short distances don't pay very well
11:01:18 <TyrHeimdal> I usually start by finding an area of 3-4-5 forests/coals/iron ore and take it its counterpart. but then I move on to the next "patch"
11:01:46 <planetmaker> So in order to make loads of money to get going I usually start with a single long route
11:02:12 <planetmaker> Either passengers between two large towns. Or maybe coal or wood from a cluster of mines / forests to a distant power plant or saw mill
11:02:30 <planetmaker> distant means >= 100 tiles
11:02:48 <planetmaker> when I have that money I can build whatever and however I want
11:03:29 <TyrHeimdal> ok, so with a long rail line from a cluster to a "central" sawmill or other industry, build small lines from the sides to collect to transfer points along the first long line?
11:03:37 <TyrHeimdal> with smaller trains?
11:03:41 <planetmaker> and it even helps when playing with goal scripts like SiliconValley or NoCarGoal which require you to transport a certain cargo within a certain time frame to a certain place
11:03:54 <planetmaker> my train length varies between 4 and 7
11:04:10 <planetmaker> always using full load orders
11:04:39 <TyrHeimdal> all going down the long line, or transferring to haulers along the main line?
11:05:17 <planetmaker> I might transfer to one station within a local cluster from which then trains haul the long road to the destination. Or I might not. Depends
11:05:36 <TyrHeimdal> this game has SO many variables to consider ^^
11:05:51 <planetmaker> If it's a short transfer to a transfer station, RV might also come in handy for small amounts
11:06:14 <TyrHeimdal> not sure why, but I sort of don't like RVs
11:06:15 <planetmaker> or a ship to bridge a gap of water
11:06:35 <planetmaker> but generally trains make the biggest money
11:07:00 <TyrHeimdal> I tend to go plane heavy, but that's not so much fun in the long run
11:08:26 <planetmaker> planes are dead boring to me. No infrastructure, no thinking needed. And too low capacity
11:08:44 <planetmaker> and not extendable; airports have a low limit on throughput
11:13:57 <TyrHeimdal> I want to build large complex networks, but I don't have the skills
11:15:06 <planetmaker> especially the latter was fun. With 15 sub-networks built by different people. All connected by a huge ICE network
11:15:22 <planetmaker> (and yes, the image is "my" ice terminal :-P)
11:17:06 <TyrHeimdal> is that some sort of cargo holding area on the sides?
11:17:16 <planetmaker> Feel free to join #openttdcoop and one of its servers. There people usually build this kind of stuff collectively. It's a great place to learn this building style
11:17:35 <planetmaker> those are station tiles. But just for eye candy to show waiting cargo
11:17:55 <planetmaker> it has no functional effect other than looking nice
11:18:22 <TyrHeimdal> does it actually show waiting cargo ammount in some way, or is it static?
11:18:50 <planetmaker> it's related to the amount of waiting cargo, yes. But on a per-tile basis. In kinda 3 or four amounts
11:19:09 <planetmaker> empty, 1/3, 2/3 and 3/3 or so for certain amounts which I don't know
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11:20:53 <planetmaker> download the savegame and see yourself ;-)
11:21:27 <planetmaker> it will need the additional grfs in the grfpack I linked earlier (and some from the online content)
11:21:31 <TyrHeimdal> that looked....complex
11:21:56 <TyrHeimdal> kk, I'll check it out when I get home from work ^^
11:22:24 <planetmaker> yes... advanced stuff to minimize train distance on main line tracks in order to increase overall track capacity and through-put
11:25:33 <dada__> would be fun to build something like that irl
11:25:47 <dada__> poor blokes who have to drive the trains in the loops 24/7 :)
11:27:17 <planetmaker> play in modern times and use robot trains for it ;-)
11:27:57 <dada__> I should really get in on this openttd coop thing sometime...would probably improve my openttd skillz significantly
11:28:54 <TyrHeimdal> newbe question. That GRF-pack, the readme didn't say anything about how to "install" it
11:28:59 <TyrHeimdal> where to extract I'm guessing
11:29:35 <planetmaker> just unzip in your newgrf folder.. like c:\documents\my files\OpenTTD\newgrf
11:29:46 <planetmaker> or whatever. depends on OS (version)
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11:35:13 <TyrHeimdal> off to a meeting, bbl
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14:05:29 <peter1138> What happened in here? Quiet for 2½ hours...
14:12:39 <NGC3982> Is that something out of the ordinary?
14:22:24 <szaman> everybody watches the man falling down from 36 km in the air
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16:30:42 <BadBrett> hmmm... what is the exact syntax for getting a groundsprite slope...? i read the documentation but i don't seem to get it
16:33:58 <Supercheese> nearby_tile_slope
16:34:18 <Supercheese> (or at least, I think)
16:34:25 <Supercheese> I haven't don't much with tile slopes myself
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17:21:12 <jose> hi, is there a way to create multiple dedicated servers with a single openttd installation(with multiple configs...)?
17:21:44 <jose> i have a debian and a windows root...
17:22:19 <jose> i was able to start a single server, but multiple...?
17:24:27 <Alberth> doesn't openttd have an option to specify where to pull the config from?
17:24:49 <jose> i just saw the option to load savegames...
17:25:55 <Alberth> -c config_file = Use 'config_file' instead of 'openttd.cfg' ??
17:26:52 <Alberth> in the worst case, you can make links of the openttd files at different places, I guess
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17:30:19 <Terkhen> IIRC -c config_file works
17:34:14 <Alberth> SiliconValley (v2): SiliconValley <-- interesting description :)
17:43:50 <NGC3982> Abort on Stratos for today. :(
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17:45:15 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24578 trunk/src/lang/norwegian_bokmal.txt (2012-10-09 17:45:08 UTC)
17:45:16 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:17 <DorpsGek> norwegian_bokmal - 9 changes by Tinman
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18:06:55 <fonsinchen> There seems to be a problem with the build farm
18:07:12 <fonsinchen> Obviously it's run out of space for unpacking the Cargodist source
18:07:38 <fonsinchen> Maybe that should be fixed ...
18:08:01 <fonsinchen> probably we can delete some old revisions
18:08:34 <Alberth> planetmaker: ^^ ? (ammler does not seem online)
18:08:47 <fonsinchen> actually it seems this is entirely unrelated to the actual place where the finished builds get uploaded to, though.
18:09:42 <fonsinchen> The build farm probably has its own space to unpack and build before bundling it up and saving it on the openttdcoop server. That is probably full.
18:10:05 <Alberth> oh sorry, you are not speaking of the devzone!!
18:12:57 <Alberth> alternatively you can send a email to info@openttd.org, that will definitely get to the right person
18:13:16 <frosch123> nah, TrueBrain loves being highlighted
18:13:26 <fonsinchen> Nice, there is an email address now ...
18:13:39 <Alberth> ther has been for many years :p
18:13:43 <fonsinchen> I'll wait some more to see if he shows up and then write the mail.
18:14:09 <fonsinchen> If I had known I had spared myself a lot of useless waiting around in the IRC channel.
18:14:23 <Alberth> with TB you never know when he turns up
18:15:33 <FLHerne> fonsinchen: I was moaning about that :P
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18:18:43 <Matulla> Train 182 does not move to the station
18:19:22 <Zuu> Matulla: The tracks of the "free" plattform have a reservation.
18:19:43 <Matulla> i used all the time this kind of signals it works on other stations but not here
18:20:29 <Matulla> Zuu: as you say i see also the gray color but why
18:20:39 <Alberth> something special must have happened here
18:20:49 <Zuu> You can get ride of it by forcing a train to pass over the track.
18:21:02 <Zuu> But it's not something you get without a special reason.
18:21:07 <Matulla> the left track has been modified
18:21:32 <Matulla> from a other trainsystem
18:21:52 <Matulla> so breakdown and rebuild will be a solution
18:21:57 <Zuu> You could remove the possibility to enter the left track and theng use the button to force train 182 to pass the signal.
18:22:40 <Matulla> if i change the sig direction towards 182 train it moves on
18:23:20 <Matulla> i kill the reservated tiles and make new ones see what happesn
18:23:21 <Zuu> Change the tracks so that train 182 only can go straight. Then click on the button with a signal and a red cross on it on the train window.
18:23:50 <Zuu> (if you don't change the tracks first, it may either use your bypass or crash your other train)
18:24:34 <Zuu> When you force a train over a stale resarvation, it will clear the stale resarvation.
18:25:09 <Zuu> However, unless you force it to run over the reservation, it will not do it by itself as the tracks are reserved.
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18:27:34 <Alberth> you may also stop the other train temporarily, so it does not start suddenly when you don't expect it
18:27:42 <TrueBrain> out of diskspace? oh-oh, sounds terrible
18:29:11 <fonsinchen> well, the other plans seem to be OK. I don't know how it's set up but obviously it's not globally out of space ...
18:30:27 <TrueBrain> the last few have been HUGE
18:30:53 <TrueBrain> what the hell did you put in it? :D
18:30:53 <fonsinchen> What are you downloading there?
18:31:19 <TrueBrain> do you ever repack the git or anything?
18:31:24 <TrueBrain> hmm, shouldnt really matter
18:31:32 <TrueBrain> seems a git checkout is 2GB
18:32:12 <fonsinchen> I can't do that; it's github's job.
18:32:21 <TrueBrain> seems it fails at it or what ever
18:32:25 <TrueBrain> I now changed it to a shallow checkout
18:33:06 <TrueBrain> please validate the result when it is done :)
18:35:36 <TrueBrain> hmm, no, still huge
18:35:53 <TrueBrain> yeah, .git is 2GB big
18:36:13 <fonsinchen> I'll see if I can trigger a repack on github
18:36:44 <TrueBrain> trying a few things on my end too
18:41:17 <TrueBrain> weird, the git checkout is only 9 MiB ...
18:43:44 <fonsinchen> It seems I have to delete the repository and recreate it. They won't garbage-collect it.
18:43:54 <TrueBrain> I might have the problem
18:45:07 <TrueBrain> for some reason, it never cleaned the old .git
18:45:12 <TrueBrain> and then git seems to act very very weird
18:45:45 <TrueBrain> I still have it on shallow copy, so lemme know if that poses any issues (think about version detection etc)
18:46:25 <fonsinchen> I'll check when it's built
18:46:39 <TrueBrain> nightly is running, so will be a bit :)
18:46:58 <TrueBrain> and all controllers are offline, so that will be never
18:47:09 <TrueBrain> now I also know why the agents went offline :D
18:47:27 <TrueBrain> I couldnt figure that out .. but it ran out of diskspace, then just stops :D
18:47:43 <TrueBrain> I have to make a new disk specially for builds, so that cannot happen I guess :)
18:51:39 <TrueBrain> fonsinchen: ge8747397-cd, correct version?
18:52:06 <TrueBrain> okay; it is queued .. 2 hours or so, and it will be cooked :)
18:52:09 <TrueBrain> tnx for letting me know :)
18:56:39 <jose> one quick last question.... is there a rcon-command for [>>] fast forward?
18:59:23 <FLHerne> fonsinchen: Is there any inter-version compatibility yet?
19:00:06 <fonsinchen> No. It would be seriously messy to implement that. I don't want to do it.
19:01:21 <FLHerne> Surely that would rule out trunk inclusion?
19:01:37 <FLHerne> Or would the severe messiness not be needed in that case?
19:01:43 <frosch123> jose: there is no fast forward in multiplayer
19:01:43 <fonsinchen> When included in trunk this is no issue anymore
19:01:54 <fonsinchen> Cargodist is compatible to all trunk versions
19:02:30 <fonsinchen> The problem only arises if you want to play a game from a previous cargodist version in a new cargodist version.
19:03:02 <fonsinchen> (and then also only if trunk has changed the savegame format in between those versions)
19:03:12 <FLHerne> But why would it be easier to make CDist backwards-compatible with itself when it was in trunk?
19:03:41 <FLHerne> fonsinchen: Ah, I didn't know that bit. That's useful
19:03:52 <fonsinchen> because versions are designed to be linear. There is no branching and merging of savegame versions
19:04:17 <fonsinchen> so at some point the old savegame version of cargodist has "branched off"
19:04:26 <fonsinchen> then the main trunk has added some versions
19:04:39 <fonsinchen> then the new cargodist savegame version has branched off
19:04:47 <jose> k thank you, good night...
19:05:09 <fonsinchen> there is not direct line of "heritage" between the two cargodist versions then
19:05:12 <FLHerne> fonsinchen: That makes sense. Thanks :-)
19:09:53 <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r24579 /trunk/src (lang/english.txt vehicle.cpp) (2012-10-09 19:09:45 UTC)
19:09:54 <DorpsGek> -Change [FS#5322] (r21961): Show no loading indicator when orders are 'no unloading and no loading' (sbr)
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19:27:36 <andythenorth> if an industry newgrf was implemented in python, would it be sane to do each industry as a module?
19:28:03 <andythenorth> there's enough stuff specific to each industry a class might not be enough
19:28:08 <andythenorth> or at least would be messy
19:28:15 <Alberth> yes, for both industry type and industry instance
19:29:10 <andythenorth> I considered if a class was enough, but there'll be so much sub-classing that I think it would be a headache
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19:32:57 <Alberth> mixins could be an option
19:33:42 <andythenorth> python has mixins? o_O
19:33:56 <andythenorth> oh multiple inheritance
19:34:23 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Python for NewGRFs is annoying. It makes building them fiddly :P
19:35:42 <andythenorth> "the state of python packaging"
19:36:20 <andythenorth> FLHerne: it's not that bloody fiddly
19:36:31 <andythenorth> you need python for nml anyway
19:36:40 <andythenorth> it's only chameleon that you have to install
19:37:08 <Alberth> any computer without Python installed on it is useless anyway :p
19:37:53 <andythenorth> maybe I should learn how buildout works, and provide a buildout
19:38:33 <planetmaker> re-writing FIRS, andythenorth ? ;-)
19:38:43 <andythenorth> that would be insane
19:38:55 <andythenorth> just playing 'what if'
19:39:19 <andythenorth> if all the tickets get done, I might rewrite it
19:39:23 <andythenorth> but then...why bother ;)
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19:40:47 <Alberth> at that point, it is obviously finished, time to move on ;)
20:36:37 <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24580 trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp (2012-10-09 20:36:31 UTC)
20:36:38 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5308]: Do not add duplicates to the ban list. (alechz)
20:37:26 <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r24581 /trunk/src/script/api (3 files) (2012-10-09 20:37:20 UTC)
20:37:27 <DorpsGek> -Doc [FS#5318]: Indicate that the return value for script related order distances is the square of the distance
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20:59:35 <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r24582 /trunk/src/script/api (3 files) (2012-10-09 20:59:29 UTC)
20:59:36 <DorpsGek> -Fix (r24581): Order distances are not supposed to be compared to map distances
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22:24:41 <dada_> would it be an idea to have orders towards depots automatically be maintenance orders?
22:24:53 <dada_> since that is what they're mostly used for right
22:28:00 <Jake> You can use them for anything *but* maintenance?
22:28:51 <dada_> would save me a few precious planck times to not have to check the maintenance button
22:29:01 <Eddi|zuHause> use the Ctrl key
22:29:14 <dada_> that's interesting to know, thanks
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continue to next day ⏵
