IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-08-15
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00:04:44 <Chrill> hi drac_boy not dracula!
00:04:54 <Chrill> chill really needs to change his name :O
00:06:13 <drac_boy> heh well its too late, its already out? :)
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07:02:48 <NGC3982> I just noticed the parameter functions on ECS and 2CC.
07:03:13 <NGC3982> Quadroupled costs + No-industry-closing make a neat scenario.
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10:14:14 <Terkhen> it's morning for me :)
10:17:07 <drac_boy> V453000 its morning here as well :p
10:17:23 <V453000> well I guess it depends on how you declare morning
10:18:29 <drac_boy> anything from dawn to before noon :)
10:18:54 <Terkhen> nah, it is not "really" morning here, but it felt like morning for me
10:22:10 <V453000> that is what I mean :D
10:43:01 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: that doesn't apply, because it was after 12:00 when you joined
10:43:36 <drac_boy> its actually 06:43 now silly
10:43:48 <Eddi|zuHause> unless "noon" means "highest point of the sun", then that would put it at 13:00 in summer
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13:36:39 * Belugas is working on implementing threads for work@work. SQL queries through threads. Lovely
13:36:49 <Belugas> boss has so many crazy ideas...
13:50:11 <Rubidium> oh, one of those bosses that heard "threads" and/or "multi-core computing" and thus wants to add threads to an application
13:50:40 <Rubidium> good luck making it slower by doing the SQL query in another thread and waiting for that thread to complete before continueing
13:52:33 <frosch123> is threading in delphi still as broken as it was 10 years ago?
13:53:17 <frosch123> back then was: newer use the "synchronize" methjod, it locks up the application when exiting
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13:54:27 <Rubidium> on the other hand, doing a SQL query on a database server offloads it to another thread ;)
13:57:26 <Belugas> well... i do not neet to fetch a result, it's an update/insert/delete stuff
13:57:53 <Belugas> the point was more to free up the program for not important immediate processing
13:58:12 <Belugas> idea is good, and Delphi 4 is diong the job fine, so far
14:02:00 <Belugas> synchronize is indeed to avoid for most usage. i go with CriticalSections instead.
14:02:27 <Belugas> tricky, i need to create my one TSession for each thread accessing BDE :S
14:48:58 <Belugas> I love SQL too. very effective
14:49:20 <Warod> map-reduce is nice too. :>
14:49:38 <Belugas> I guess you hate it when you don't either know it or use it or are good with it
14:50:19 <Warod> Or know too much of things done with it.
14:52:31 <Rubidium> for certain things SQL isn't very effective though
14:54:56 <lilleman> SQL is not very good at cooking food :/
14:55:18 <Belugas> but for a POS system/chain of stores management, it is quite effective
14:55:45 <Belugas> when on-time data is not required, as an example...
14:58:37 <Belugas> note that i might be tempted with a faster i/o based db system for cash sales and such
14:58:48 <Belugas> sometimes, it's a bit too much
14:59:15 <Belugas> robustness and speed sometimes clash
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16:08:24 <BenTrein> Time to learn Chinese fellows.
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16:46:49 <NGC3982> __ln__: GRF it! GRF it before it lay eggs!
16:55:48 <NGC3982> Does a town stop accepting water at some point in tropical climate?
16:56:08 <BenTrein> As long as it keeps it's watertower it should keep accepting it.
16:56:15 <BenTrein> Or are you talking ecs?
16:56:43 <BenTrein> Ah, sorry. I got no idea. :D
16:57:03 <NGC3982> I didnt really realize that i didnt have a water tower at all
16:57:46 <BenTrein> :) Maybe that helps.
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17:45:19 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r24473 /trunk/src/lang/portuguese.txt:
17:45:19 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:19 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: portuguese - 1 changes by filipemsoares
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17:56:05 <andythenorth> who here is familiar with Club-Mate?
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18:05:46 <Alberth> Man gewöhnt sich daran :)
18:06:53 <Alberth> so you're super hyper now with all that cafeine? :)
18:07:20 <andythenorth> today I am having caffeine crash
18:09:20 <NGC3982> I just love how i can deliver steel to a tinning factory and create food for a nearby town.
18:09:30 <NGC3982> It's like soylent transformers or something.
18:11:00 <andythenorth> this channel has a minor soylent obsession
18:11:06 <Belugas> better then caffeine trash
18:17:39 <NGC3982> I so want to live in a place like that
18:23:13 <Rubidium> the heating bill will be horrible
18:24:04 <Belugas> half an hour drive from my place :)
18:24:58 <Rubidium> just horrid accessibility from the main train station :(
18:29:25 <Belugas> ho. did you tried to visit it? would you have wished?
18:29:37 * Starlight does have a minor shunting yard near by. :3
18:29:38 <Belugas> sorry, it did not cross my mind it would be interesting for you
18:29:54 <Belugas> make one in lego, Starlight :)
18:30:02 <Rubidium> when I saw the horrid connection there I chose not to go
18:30:13 <Rubidium> and do some other stuff, rather than sit 4 hours in transit
18:30:29 <Rubidium> especially since I've been to something similar in Cowgary
18:32:01 <Starlight> Ha. Well, considering where I live, I think it connects to multiple locations. I do have a freight line track right across the street. The train comes around at night carrying coal (I think?) and .. as OpenTTD would have; Iron Ore (again! I think?) to the Steel Mill.
18:32:40 <Starlight> All I know is, they are defiently coal hoppers from CSX.
18:32:49 <Belugas> true, Rubidium. so instead, we've sat for more then 4 hours in my car :D
18:33:09 <Belugas> plus, i assumed you have your share of trains in a yearly basis ;)
18:33:44 <Rubidium> yep, even "cattle class" ;)
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18:37:42 <andythenorth> is that in HEQS?
18:38:09 <Rubidium> I doubt that, neither in the Dutch train set
18:38:15 <Rubidium> although I didn't ask about that one
18:38:21 <andythenorth> how many PAX does it carry? :P
18:39:10 <Rubidium> it has "seats" for two (besides the drive)
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18:55:28 * andythenorth tries Alberth's industry patch
18:57:16 <andythenorth> using my leet shell skills, I should be able to pipe this output to a file
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18:58:24 <Alberth> ./openttd -d ind=4 >& tzelogvile
18:59:59 <Alberth> it's a bit blunt, it redicrects everything :)
19:00:58 <andythenorth> the total number of +ve or -ve seems to be roughly balanced
19:01:23 <andythenorth> 1 too few currently
19:01:39 <andythenorth> I am deliberately testing an easy case - flat map, lots of space
19:01:51 <Alberth> yeah, it's pretty good at reaching the required number of industries :p
19:02:26 <andythenorth> not sure how often the cb is running
19:02:35 <andythenorth> I ffwed about 1 year of game time, and get 4 runs
19:12:53 <Alberth> it has been a few years, I don't have the details in my head any more. You could try to bulldoze a few industries, and see what happens
19:14:11 <frosch123> andythenorth: i think it depends on the map size
19:14:27 <frosch123> maybe once per month on 256x256 ?
19:20:20 <andythenorth> maybe I should add game month + year to the debug output
19:30:19 <andythenorth> just got a scrap yard and steel mill in 1879
19:30:21 <andythenorth> available since 1873
19:31:10 <andythenorth> '1' is not a very large sample
19:31:22 <andythenorth> I would have to play a lot of games I guess
19:32:07 <andythenorth> "Target count recalculated"
19:32:14 <andythenorth> followed by ""Scrap Yard" opened"
19:32:32 <andythenorth> changed from "1 too few" to "4 too few"
19:33:34 <Alberth> Target count recalculated means some industry availability or random probability changed, so it re-computes (with a random number generator) how many industries to make of each type
19:34:20 <Alberth> the use of the RG means that the numbers will change a bit every time
19:35:14 <andythenorth> ok, so it does listen to cb 22
19:35:23 <Alberth> How do you make a callback?
19:35:37 <Alberth> of ocurse it listens to the newgrf :)
19:35:48 <andythenorth> I assume you mean 'how to add to ottd?'
19:36:08 <Alberth> yes, if you know that :)
19:36:23 <Alberth> but I'd settle for a few NFO lines too :)
19:36:53 <Alberth> the newgrf specs are just horrible, they don't explain anything
19:37:06 <andythenorth> a patch does though :)
19:38:15 <andythenorth> that was accepted so must be ok :)
19:39:28 <andythenorth> add it to a newgrf_callbacks.h, add to newgrf_debug_data.h
19:39:40 <andythenorth> (don't need debug if not trying for trunk inclusion)
19:39:46 <andythenorth> add code to industry_cmd.cpp to handle it
19:39:59 <andythenorth> then you'll need a test grf
19:40:11 <andythenorth> extending nml is trivial; grfcodec less so
19:40:34 <Alberth> grfcodec fails to just code what I tell it to?
19:40:47 <frosch123> andy means nforenum
19:40:51 <andythenorth> it or nforenum _might_ throw errors
19:41:11 <andythenorth> it's harder to take renum out of a FIRS nfo build than to fix nml :P
19:41:50 <Alberth> I would hope that nforrenum makes noise when using undefined cb's :)
19:43:32 <Alberth> My problem is currently that I don't know which action to use for defining a cb.
19:43:57 <NGC3982> Im not understanding the ECS wiki
19:44:20 <NGC3982> I note that number of visits + full load is the best way to handle ECS vectors
19:44:29 <NGC3982> But i have no idea why.
19:44:31 <Alberth> NGC3982: you understand the newgrf specs wiki? maybe we can swap our problems :p
19:44:45 <andythenorth> Alberth: action in nml? nfo? or ottd?
19:45:00 <frosch123> what are you actually heading for?
19:45:07 <frosch123> i did not quite understand that :s
19:45:48 <andythenorth> Alberth: adding a cb is deceptively easy :)
19:45:57 <andythenorth> that's why my patch got accepted :P
19:47:20 <Alberth> I was thinking to start with moving the total number of industries number into a newgrf cb.
19:49:11 <andythenorth> what return values are valid?
19:49:54 <andythenorth> result is got from something like:
19:49:56 <andythenorth> uint16 res = GetIndustryCallback(CBID_INDUSTRY_PROD_CHANGE_BUILD, 0, 0, i, type, INVALID_TILE);
19:50:01 <frosch123> Alberth: a single callback for total amount? or per industry type?
19:50:07 <frosch123> the latter would be the same as cb22
19:50:25 <andythenorth> allowing values other than '55' :P
19:50:31 <frosch123> for a single callback independent of industry type, you want a so called "generic callback"
19:51:56 <frosch123> take a look at AmbientSoundEffectCallback for an example
19:52:13 <Alberth> and taking mapsize and industry density into account by the newgrf may make sense too
19:53:41 * andythenorth is playing a FIRS game in 1870s and enjoying it
19:54:10 <andythenorth> setting 0 intro date for some more industries helps prevent broken chains in 1870
19:54:33 <andythenorth> but also my train set doesn't have trains until 1905
19:54:40 <andythenorth> so I only have steam trams and ships
19:54:45 <andythenorth> minimal = a little more fun
19:58:26 <Alberth> did you see the post about making a game script for FIRS andy?
20:00:02 <andythenorth> well that will provide evidence at least
20:00:13 <andythenorth> I've given up again trying to solve GS and am sticking to the newgrf end :P
20:00:25 <andythenorth> I know zero about GS, so I'm incompetent there
20:04:42 <andythenorth> I just found one of the reasons I hate FIRS
20:06:50 <andythenorth> gah I hate farms
20:06:52 <andythenorth> I've done them all wrong
20:09:26 <planetmaker> what's 'all wrong' about farms, andythenorth?
20:09:42 <planetmaker> how they work? how they look? their overall existence?
20:09:52 <Alberth> they are too much left, otherwise they would be right :)
20:10:17 <andythenorth> they're fun with one cargo
20:10:20 <andythenorth> I like the clustering
20:10:29 <andythenorth> as soon as I want to ship both cargos and/or deliver supplies
20:10:35 <andythenorth> I either have horrible contention
20:10:43 <andythenorth> or I have to surround each farm with infrastructure
20:10:56 <andythenorth> which is (a) boring (b) dumb (c) doesn't look nice
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20:12:28 <andythenorth> I want to do something evil
20:12:40 <andythenorth> each farm cluster also gains a farm supply drop off industry
20:12:57 <andythenorth> and industries can communicate :P
20:13:01 <andythenorth> which o/c they can't :P
20:13:38 <andythenorth> if I was using trains or boats I could use autorefit and backload supplies
20:13:50 <andythenorth> but serving all farms with trains or boats also looks stupid
20:14:15 <andythenorth> and HEQS trams shouldn't autorefit (they do, but then the game throws nice error messages :D )
20:14:46 <andythenorth> in summary, I don't like unwinnable problems
20:14:56 <andythenorth> there's no win condition that can be reached here with the available tools :P
20:18:00 <planetmaker> what's wrong with using RV to supply farms from a nearby depot (=transfer station)?
20:19:08 <andythenorth> too many stations :)
20:19:27 <andythenorth> the problem isn't specific to farms really; it's specific to the number of cargos to pickup / dropoff
20:19:28 <planetmaker> one per farm? :-)
20:19:43 <andythenorth> it just looks stupid at farms, whereas at processing industries it looks correct
20:20:06 <andythenorth> pickup stations block, so waiting loops etc are needed
20:20:38 <andythenorth> I can't actually think of a good solution beyond complaining ;)
20:20:55 <andythenorth> I offered 'farms are one big industry' but it seemed unpopular
20:21:40 <andythenorth> I guess changing supplies algorithm might count as a fix
20:21:54 <andythenorth> one big delivery occasionally instead of trying to get small deliveries through the congestion
20:21:59 <planetmaker> for farms with short path to supply depot you can forgo the "full load" order and just use normal load. Thus won't block
20:22:39 <planetmaker> with road side stops it won't even really show much
20:22:51 <Alberth> give up on trying to get maximum amount of cargo from them?
20:24:00 <planetmaker> with really max production... it's difficult to use only one. But a few well-placed stops do. As one station
20:25:15 <andythenorth> not using full load might be plausible if I can match vehicles to output better
20:25:41 <andythenorth> someone had a patch for something like 'wait in depot until station is free' or such
20:25:57 <andythenorth> would prevent blocking
20:27:05 <planetmaker> station will be free, if you don't use full load
20:27:10 <planetmaker> or you really have too many vehicles
20:27:22 <andythenorth> what rules out the "load at least x%" idea that's suggested occasionally ?
20:27:22 <planetmaker> rather you need means to time schedule the vehicles properly
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20:28:22 <andythenorth> I should maybe match vehicles to output
20:28:31 <andythenorth> trams have 4x monthly output
20:28:34 <andythenorth> so take 4 months to load
20:29:09 <andythenorth> but travel time means more smaller vehicles would be needed
20:29:15 <andythenorth> and that's higher capital cost
20:30:01 <andythenorth> there's no obvious single cause or fix for this
20:30:18 <andythenorth> rv-wagons would allow a tram to have one supply vehicle at the end
20:30:30 <andythenorth> changing FIRS supplies would allow occasional large deliveries
20:30:53 <andythenorth> inter-industry communication would allow a completely different approach to supplies
20:31:08 <andythenorth> could do this as a town-effect cargo :P
20:34:39 <andythenorth> my game is building missing industries
20:34:58 <andythenorth> Alberth: if the game had *lots* of missing types it might not play catchup so well?
20:35:08 <andythenorth> whereas if there are few it has a better chance?
20:35:22 <andythenorth> or does it adjust required amounts proportionally?
20:35:53 <andythenorth> ah, also frequency matters
20:37:35 <Alberth> the missing industry types that are forced to exist are separately handled from the random count, and take priority, except that there has to be missing industries
20:37:53 <Alberth> (as pointed out by Eddi)
20:39:07 <Alberth> I don't remember what happens exactly when it is up-to-date, it might just verify that the probabilities have not changed, and quit
20:41:27 * Alberth doubts the action 2 in the cb tut defines 133 loading stages :p
20:41:53 <planetmaker> hehe, rather not. iirc you can only have 4
20:42:28 <andythenorth> Alberth: ok, it's interesting to watch opening on a FIRS game
20:42:31 <andythenorth> it's not science :P
20:42:51 <andythenorth> I know have 0 slots, I think all available chains have at least one instance
20:42:59 <andythenorth> but some are in small proportion
20:43:15 <andythenorth> I need to try using cb22 to dump their probability to maximum maybe
20:43:35 <andythenorth> but to make that work I have to count industries to prevent spamming the map with the new type over 50 years or so :P
20:43:41 <andythenorth> and that needs map scaling too
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20:45:15 <andythenorth> I have vehicles that will take >70 years to pay back their purchase cost :)
20:45:34 <Alberth> no sleep tonight thus :)
20:46:13 <andythenorth> I am no good with terms
20:46:30 <andythenorth> $7k purchase, $100/year profit
20:46:58 <andythenorth> Alberth: that varaction2 is checking a word sized var
20:47:11 <andythenorth> the one above is checking a byte, hence 81 there
20:47:30 <andythenorth> you'll see the ranges in each are appropriately word and byte sized too
20:47:50 <andythenorth> you need varaction 2 spec, not action 2 spec
20:48:30 <drac_boy> does it only carry like 1 or 2 tonnes of cargo?
20:49:09 <Alberth> how should I reach that conclusion?
20:49:39 <Alberth> drac_boy: or too close to make any useful profit, or too slow, or too high running cost, or ... :)
20:50:34 <andythenorth> it carries 4 crates
20:52:25 <Alberth> one thing that might be useful to change is to check the percentage of missing industries instead of the count.
20:53:28 <andythenorth> so try to build the idealised ratio according to probabilities?
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20:54:15 <andythenorth> what's the actual issue I see?
20:54:38 <andythenorth> - num. industries matters where enough primaries are needed to supply a secondary with decent production
20:55:35 <andythenorth> - num industries slightly matters on larger maps, to avoid huge distances between supply / accept, but that could be solved by cb28
20:55:51 <andythenorth> second reason is a non-reason actually
20:56:22 <Alberth> right, so action 3 assumes variational action 2 instead of normal action 2?
20:56:43 <Alberth> grr, why didn't they give them a new action number
20:57:17 <andythenorth> action 3 is happy with an action 2 or varaction 2
20:57:50 <andythenorth> it's easier if you turn sanity checks off in your brain
20:58:00 <andythenorth> nfo is completely fine (except stations)
20:58:03 <Belugas> that would make an excellent boy movie... it does not lack actions...
20:58:09 <andythenorth> but don't expect a nice design
20:58:51 <Alberth> I always had the idea that computers did not do magic, but I must be too stupid
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20:59:04 <Alberth> first issue should be solvable with correct industry probabilities
20:59:20 <Alberth> assuming there is enough room for constructing industries
20:59:31 <andythenorth> things look better on my flat map
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20:59:37 <andythenorth> I usually play mountainous
20:59:50 <andythenorth> flat has plenty of space for new types etc
21:00:18 <andythenorth> btw, I learnt nfo by taking zephyris' uncommented one line sprites, and breaking them to multi-lines with comments
21:00:30 <andythenorth> turns out 50% of my comments were wrong, but code still worked :P
21:00:41 <andythenorth> understanding is not 100% essential for nfo :P
21:00:50 <Alberth> you probably need the terraforming fix to get more industries built
21:01:16 <Alberth> well, it helps a lot when you can find out what page to read :p
21:01:54 <Alberth> well, enough today, good night andy
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21:31:32 <andythenorth> flat docks please
21:31:34 <andythenorth> for use on rivers
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21:36:22 <Starlight> .. Little does he know that rivers are objects. :s
21:37:05 <drac_boy> Starlight yeah, wonder where he got that confused :)
21:37:47 <Starlight> Lol. I don't know the under laying workings of OpenTTD, but rivers can be blown up. :P
21:39:36 <Starlight> GRF just seems to be a headache to me.. and if I were to code anything, I have to make sure it's compatible with [insert cargo/trainset/tracks/roads/station here].
21:44:34 <drac_boy> starlight I don't really see any need to..just make it generic, its rather simple
21:44:51 <Starlight> Hm. I might take a crack at it some day.
21:45:24 <drac_boy> although tracks do have a bit difficulity with different track gauge in term of pixels :/ (eg NG tracks need narrower platform clearances than SG ones)
21:45:51 <Starlight> Yeah, understandable.
21:46:11 * Zuu_ just posted yet another Game Script.
21:46:50 <Zuu_> Although in this case, it is actually not for players, but for people who want to write their own GS and might have use for my template GS.
21:50:29 <drac_boy> starlight mind you I'm sorta still debating the cargo labels in my slowly-coming-along grf yet :-s
21:51:05 <Starlight> Yeah. Was going to use ECS, but noticed it and NARS2 isn't too compatible at a certain year frame.
21:51:11 <drac_boy> at least the rolling stock list is almost finished..just some missing holes especially re no late goods wagons etc
21:51:27 <planetmaker> very nice idea, Zuu_ :-)
21:52:03 <drac_boy> starlight..mm I'm not planning to use any existing industries/cargos just yet tho..
21:54:08 <planetmaker> a cargo is a common name associated with a label and some properties which sort-of describe it like weight per unit and payment rates
21:55:16 <Zuu_> planetmaker: it have been staying around on my harddrive for several months now and SquireJames interest into creating a GS gave me the final push to tidy it up and publish for others to use too.
21:56:33 <Zuu_> While I agree on the non-war wishes, I think that its better to let him experiment and do his thing and see what he may come up with.
21:57:27 <Zuu_> He could easily add a parameter to enable/disable war events as long as there are other events too.
21:57:50 <planetmaker> I must have missed that thread them. I concur with your view, though
21:59:15 <planetmaker> oh, I posted there :D
21:59:46 <planetmaker> 3 months 5 months ago...
22:41:51 *** TrueBrain_ is now known as TrueBrain
22:44:04 <NGC3982> I have not yet seen a Curiosity GRF.
22:44:21 * NGC3982 taps his wooden leg on the floor, giggles and goes to slep.
22:46:53 *** tokai|mdlx has joined #openttd
22:59:21 *** drac_boy has joined #openttd
23:14:14 *** argoneus has joined #openttd
23:14:22 <argoneus> Can anyone here help me with AI development?
23:14:31 <argoneus> Or is this chat about the game only
23:18:38 <Terkhen> argoneus: this channel is for anything AI related
23:19:33 <Terkhen> but right now most of the usuals are sleeping already
23:19:35 <argoneus> I don't quite understand how lists here work
23:19:49 <argoneus> for example, I can't get it to print the list of towns alphabetically
23:20:01 <Terkhen> I don't know much about AI development myself, so I can't help you
23:20:17 <Terkhen> you might want to give the AI development subforum a try
23:20:27 <Terkhen> and, IIRC, there are tutorials at the wiki
23:22:36 <planetmaker> argoneus: and you had a look at existing AIs as well?
23:22:52 <argoneus> planetmaker: yes, but they are extremely complex
23:24:42 <planetmaker> Hm, yes. Maybe indeed ask your question in the AI section of the forums. "Better" IRC times are evening hours instead of post-midnight in European times :-)
23:24:56 <argoneus> sleeping is for scrubs
23:25:11 * planetmaker suddenly grows grey-green leaves
23:25:58 <planetmaker> who knows what people really do when they "go to sleep" ;-)
23:26:27 <Terkhen> I was going to sleep myself before I saw that question :P
23:28:05 <planetmaker> good night Terkhen :-)
23:28:17 <planetmaker> time for me, too, actually
23:32:35 <Wolf01> and for me too, night all
23:47:54 <Mazur> I usually go and read a bit.
continue to next day ⏵
