IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-08-11
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09:33:51 *** DorpsGek has joined #openttd
09:33:51 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o DorpsGek
09:33:52 <andythenorth> I'll test the patch first
09:34:07 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but it "breaks" CETS (as in doesn't help fixing the overlap, due to larger offset)
09:34:22 <andythenorth> fiddly situation
09:34:41 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and FISH 0.9.2 looks very wide
09:34:42 <andythenorth> you could change CETS?
09:34:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i might do that, yes
09:35:02 <andythenorth> FISH 0.9.2 uses setx. setx is not supported. Problem goes away
09:35:15 <andythenorth> i.e. "don't use things that aren't supported"
09:35:17 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but then FISH 0.9.2 will overlap
09:35:30 <andythenorth> it uses unsupported feature
09:35:39 <andythenorth> unsupported has to include 'may break'
09:35:47 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the left-aligning will "fix" the overlap
09:36:13 <Eddi|zuHause> this basically is a problem of all "old" grfs with oversized sprites, i assume
09:36:27 <andythenorth> if they use setx, they fail the spec
09:36:39 <andythenorth> should have stuck to the spec
09:36:46 <Eddi|zuHause> setx was part of the spec when they were written
09:37:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and the specs are supposed to be "eternal"
09:37:14 <andythenorth> that argument doesn't hold
09:37:21 <Eddi|zuHause> (i.e. add new stuff, but never remove old stuff)
09:37:30 <andythenorth> otherwise I'd be using setx in FISH, and you wouldn't be having to figure this patch out
09:37:43 <andythenorth> spec clearly isn't eternal
09:38:05 <V453000> fruit store online ^^
09:38:36 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: no centering for me in v3 :)
09:38:49 <andythenorth> got some extra debug output though :)
09:38:56 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: wait
09:39:49 <TrueBrain> right, this should bring openttd.org back on its feet
09:39:52 <TrueBrain> if you find any isuses, please let me know
09:43:44 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the centering patch appears to work
09:43:51 <andythenorth> canrail is back where it should be
09:44:08 <andythenorth> HEQS has a few oddities, but I suspect that's in the grf
09:44:16 <andythenorth> FISH I need to adjust offsets, but it will work
09:50:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: HEQS can be fixed by reinstating the old minimum width
09:52:27 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: did you test the sailing ship grf?
10:14:49 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: no I didn't test sailing ships yet
10:15:02 <Eddi|zuHause> 2cc set is also non-optimal
10:15:49 <andythenorth> sailing ships looks ok
10:16:00 <andythenorth> it has an insanely huge steamship that should clip insanely
10:19:04 <andythenorth> maybe 1px, maybe 2
10:21:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's an instance of the centering problem
10:21:48 <V453000> try nuts 0.2.8 andy that has some really weird sprites for the purchase menu lately ... big ones with the numbers ... idk what could it do
10:23:08 <V453000> does it center both ways? vertical/horizontal
10:24:01 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: is it also centering vertically
10:24:41 *** drac_boy has joined #openttd
10:24:52 <V453000> the gmund mog is 1 px higher in the patch it looks like ... at least from your screenshot andy
10:25:15 <andythenorth> V453000: NUTS 0.2.8 is fine with the patch. All your sprites are the same width
10:25:48 <V453000> so it loads the whole sprite not just the "visible" part
10:25:53 <drac_boy> mog? hmm is that ukrs2 or was it that world train set?
10:26:03 <drac_boy> I know I've seen it before just forgot where
10:26:06 <drac_boy> oh duh..right...trucks
10:26:24 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so definitely 1px too high on the baseline
10:26:58 <andythenorth> V453000: I tested NUTS without the patch :P
10:27:02 <drac_boy> V453000 I remember having fun with heqs on some servers before except for one stupid bug...the railmotors could not even actually carry anything at all
10:27:17 <V453000> drac_boy: dont tell me tell andythenorth :P
10:27:18 <drac_boy> but then I think the server was one version behind at the time perhaps
10:27:38 <drac_boy> something about eg it used 1.4 but the forum said 1.5
10:27:56 <andythenorth> V453000: not fine :)
10:28:22 <drac_boy> V453000 of course my favorite part of the whole HEQ was the trams alone almost literally :p
10:28:38 <andythenorth> V453000: you're using nml?
10:28:53 <drac_boy> being able to have an economical low-speed low-cost freight line for eg a 76 tonnes forest to a sawmill that is not too far away :)
10:29:05 <lugo> hi, just a quick one: is it possible to get MBs NewStations to use/show other than default railtracks?
10:29:06 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: must the length text be red?
10:29:08 <drac_boy> I don't think there is even any other vehicle set that has freight trams or am I wrong?
10:29:13 <andythenorth> V453000: how are you offsetting the buy menu text? nml doesn't support that
10:29:24 <V453000> andythenorth: yeah spaces :D
10:29:32 <andythenorth> good luck when the font changes :P
10:29:42 <andythenorth> or with right to left languages
10:29:53 <andythenorth> tried it with opengfx font?
10:29:57 <V453000> space is always space
10:30:08 <andythenorth> font char width is variable
10:30:12 <andythenorth> I tried this for BANDIT
10:30:19 <V453000> every text has .. 8 spaces before it
10:30:21 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: and you forgot to colour some "(Electric)"
10:30:21 <andythenorth> err...for FISH :P
10:30:28 <V453000> sure it can change with font
10:30:37 <andythenorth> k as long as you know ;)
10:30:39 <lugo> i am using pikkas finescale tracks atm, and all stationsets seem to recognize them .. despite MBs...
10:30:46 <V453000> but each string has the same amount of spaces in front for me
10:31:05 <drac_boy> V453000 can I tell you what I think of these locomotives in that list screenshot? :)
10:31:07 <Eddi|zuHause> lugo: known issue. MB has a "fixed" version but doesn't release it for some reason
10:31:20 <V453000> drac_boy: of course :)
10:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause> lugo: also you meant "except", not "despite"
10:33:46 <drac_boy> second one .. looks a bit like a crocodile type but with bit shorter noses .. 'unlucky 13' kinda seem like as if its sitting on a high chassis like some older mountain electric boxcabs .. 'painkiller' kinda looks funny I think its sorta a cross between BR61 and BR05
10:33:58 <andythenorth> V453000: NUTS would work with the patch I think, all you'd do to fix it is remove the spaces
10:34:09 <V453000> yeah thats just fine, thanks andythenorth :)
10:34:27 <drac_boy> and btw just wondering..whats with the tiles-long number column?
10:34:32 <V453000> yes that is exactly what they do drac_boy :)
10:35:04 <V453000> if you mean the colourful numbers, that is their id in their class (colour)
10:35:59 <drac_boy> hmm so how does repeated ids work in that list?
10:36:02 <V453000> drac_boy: in fact most of the engines in this screenshot are going to be redrawn :)
10:36:19 <V453000> it is an id in the class, first train in medium class, first train in fast class
10:36:30 <V453000> of course it isnt the id of the vehicle in the newgrf
10:36:34 <Eddi|zuHause> how does "painkiller" (something tiny) look anything like BR05/BR61 (large high speed express engines)?
10:36:58 <V453000> I have no clue how those trains look so .. :)
10:37:02 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause streamlined front ... and the lack of tender makes me think of BR61
10:37:58 <drac_boy> 'driving darkness' ... well it kinda looks like a typical diesel with offset cab .. except that its hard to make out any cab doors in the buy list on the contrast (then again I guess the name fits)
10:38:40 <V453000> the point is, those trains arent supposed to resemble any real trains by any means :)
10:39:29 <V453000> I dont really have a clue how BR123 or BR321 looks
10:40:45 <drac_boy> V453000 i still can't get over your silly naming system tho .. both before and now :p
10:41:41 <V453000> not making up random names for almost 100 trains :)
10:41:53 <drac_boy> V453000 btw if you're going to have 'unlucky 13' .. where is 'lucky 7' to take its place? :P
10:42:24 <V453000> lucky 7 is 6 feet under
10:43:13 <V453000> only evil things here, no luck
10:45:36 <drac_boy> heh heh ok if you say so ... btw don't know if you were probably still looking for more electric loco names but try these two if you want: Mass Jolt (100+A, no need to do the math), Death Bolts (bolts = thunderbolts)
10:46:14 <V453000> I have all trains done, just upgrading sprites and adding visual features now
10:46:18 <V453000> or editing train stats
10:46:18 <drac_boy> Death Bolt kinda sounds funny tho
10:46:54 <V453000> well all of my train names have very close resemblance to names of songs or bands :p
10:47:14 <V453000> easiest place where to take names
10:49:52 <V453000> hm, what colour to pick instead of the red but make people read that shit :-D
10:52:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd just make it "{BLACK}Length: {GOLD}1 Tile{GOLD}" like any other property
10:52:46 <Eddi|zuHause> err... last GOLD should be BLACK
10:53:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm still pondering on a good way to include that in CETS
10:53:53 <Eddi|zuHause> (calculating the "0.7 Tile(s)" automatically)
10:54:27 <Eddi|zuHause> well CETS vehicles range from 3/16 to 14/16 (and longer for articulated)
10:55:09 <Eddi|zuHause> so ICE1 (14 middle wagons) would be "12.7 Tiles"
10:55:38 <V453000> there is a reason I use only 8/8 ^^
10:57:02 <drac_boy> CETS...can't remember if I've seen that before...
10:57:10 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
10:57:55 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: well, the depot shows that properly
10:58:39 <Eddi|zuHause> well almost properly, because there's a rounding error (16 values stuffed in 1 decimal)
10:59:14 <andythenorth> I _think_ openttd just wiped out my mac with a kernel exception
10:59:19 <andythenorth> however I can't be sure from the logs
10:59:25 <andythenorth> might just be coincidence
10:59:54 <Eddi|zuHause> "kernel exceptions" generally stem from ill-programmed drivers
11:00:01 <Eddi|zuHause> not user programs
11:00:24 <Eddi|zuHause> (those might be the cause, but never the reason)
11:00:49 <__ln__> they can't stem from user programs unless there is a security vulnerability
11:01:03 <andythenorth> KERN_INVALID_ADDRESS at 0x000000000001051c, 0 Dispatch queue: com.apple.main-thread
11:01:09 <andythenorth> but it didn't kernel panic
11:01:17 <andythenorth> I lost part of the GUI instead, and some keyboard
11:01:30 <andythenorth> anyway, what's done is done :P
11:01:37 <andythenorth> more likely my new SSD is failing
11:01:54 <andythenorth> there is allegedly a ~50% failure rate on SSDs within the first few months of life
11:02:03 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like a very educated guess :p
11:02:07 <andythenorth> according to anecdotal, unscientific claims I read by a repairers
11:03:06 <andythenorth> I suspect some kind of confirmation bias :P
11:03:09 <__ln__> and a ~100% failure rate within the first 18 months
11:13:04 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: set the y_offset to 0 for trains (instead of -1)
11:13:12 <andythenorth> dunno what edge cases that has :P
11:13:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that won't work properly
11:13:59 <andythenorth> fails for default vehicles
11:22:56 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: default vehicles look fine with patch
11:23:44 * andythenorth wonders what to do next
11:24:21 <andythenorth> kind of grumpy about FIRS game balance
11:25:12 <andythenorth> "No Dairies before 1892" also means "no destination for milk before 1892"
11:25:12 <V453000> im still thinking about some way how to improve that with something rather simple
11:25:26 <andythenorth> milk seems solvable
11:25:46 <V453000> oh those things you mean :)
11:26:08 <andythenorth> I want to remove all the remaining *small* brokens
11:27:12 <V453000> an option would be to make farms somehow more atractive
11:27:35 <V453000> not just farms but also the stone/clay etc which doesnt produce its own supplies
11:27:59 <V453000> there isnt an equivalent of biorefinery in the earlier game is there?
11:29:36 <andythenorth> but there are destinations for those cargos
11:31:42 <V453000> destination is nice but you need farm supplies :)
11:32:20 <V453000> you dont care about biorefinery in 2010 if all your farms are already dead by then since 1920
11:32:34 <andythenorth> your farms die? :o
11:32:49 <V453000> well not mine I use the "no-dying" settings but still
11:34:45 <V453000> if each of your mineral or oil industries makes 700-2000 units of cargo per month by that time you arent really interested in farms
11:35:34 <V453000> but the settings with industries reducing production if not supplied just makes that even a lot bigger issue, as you definitely dont want to start with farms which cant make supplies for themselves
11:37:41 *** Chris_Booth has joined #openttd
11:39:22 <andythenorth> V453000: I think a different set is needed, focussed on production amounts
11:47:35 * andythenorth is looking for FIRS chains broken by intro dates
11:49:04 <Eddi|zuHause> pre-industrial (-1800), industrial (1750-2000), post-modern (1950-)
11:50:34 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: worth thinking about certainly
11:50:36 <Eddi|zuHause> dates might need tweaking, or a fourth phase
11:50:58 <andythenorth> currently I'm setting date to 0 where the chain is broken (supplier is available, but no destination)
11:51:50 <andythenorth> intro date; to be strict, I'm simply removing date checks from cb22
11:53:01 <Eddi|zuHause> need more context
11:53:20 <andythenorth> some chains have a supplier available from game start 0 (e.g. milk, livestock)
11:53:28 <andythenorth> but no accepting industry until [some date]
11:54:15 <andythenorth> I'll fix that first
11:54:20 <Eddi|zuHause> but that is entirely your own fault
11:54:23 <andythenorth> it annoyed me when I tried to play a game :P
11:55:23 <andythenorth> additionally I'm moving multiple industries to < 1870 intro date
11:55:33 <Eddi|zuHause> early shop: builds near towns, accepts food, milk, ...
11:55:53 <Eddi|zuHause> closes around 1900
11:56:01 <andythenorth> the 'closing' idea
11:56:05 <andythenorth> which doesn't exist :P
11:56:20 <Eddi|zuHause> you have to forcefully close old industries
11:56:28 <andythenorth> I can't, it annoys co-op players
11:56:30 <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't make sense to have these phases otherwise
11:56:40 <andythenorth> it was ruled out very early in the set design
11:56:40 <Eddi|zuHause> then they should start in 2000
11:56:48 <Eddi|zuHause> when only the post-modern industries are around
11:57:13 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the same as vehicle introduction
11:57:23 <andythenorth> seen my comments on cb22?
11:57:29 <andythenorth> I was hoping Alberth would be here :)
11:57:35 <andythenorth> oh he is apparently :)
11:58:01 <andythenorth> ^^ may make no sense, I was tired and cross
11:58:20 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that made no sense
11:58:22 <andythenorth> Alberth: do you understand how game tries to provide industries during gameplay?
11:58:29 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no "monthly" industry creation
11:58:44 <Eddi|zuHause> it's scaled by map size (larger maps create industries more often)
11:58:46 <andythenorth> I know. There should be. It's stupid that there isn't :P
11:59:14 <andythenorth> I tried to start patching it last night, but found that the code is rather elaborate
11:59:29 <andythenorth> it tries to provide nice behaviour
11:59:42 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, how is that related to "no milk-accepting industry before X"?
11:59:50 <andythenorth> they're decoupled issues
12:00:08 <andythenorth> I'm fixing the 'no milk' issue ;)
12:00:54 <andythenorth> the introduction issue might be solved by the extensions to cb 22 anyway
12:00:57 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, closing for not servicing: bad. closing randomly: bad. closing outdated chains: good.
12:01:03 <Alberth> monthly is very fast I think, currently it grows by 1 industry every 8-10 months or so, I think; I also don't understand what you aim to solve
12:01:23 <andythenorth> try playing a FIRS game before say 1900
12:01:36 <andythenorth> Aluminimum Plant and Bauxite Mine are available from 1923
12:01:44 <Alberth> yeah, you mentioned that yesterday iirc
12:01:53 <andythenorth> Fertiliser Plant similar etc
12:02:01 <andythenorth> they just don't show up in game very often
12:02:25 <andythenorth> because we already have the required number of industries
12:02:33 <andythenorth> or possibly because the map has no room I guess
12:02:57 <andythenorth> I'm wondering if the issue is that the map has no room
12:03:13 <andythenorth> but I'm so bored of testing randomised crap
12:03:33 <andythenorth> you get a result in one game, how many more do you have to run to be sure that the result is valid?
12:03:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth, andythenorth: i think a "solution" to that might be "reserving" unbuilt industry slots for industries that are not avaliable for some reason. then they have a larger creation chance when they become available (but you have fewer industries on the map before that)
12:04:12 <andythenorth> I can also use the recent additions to cb22 to raise the probability
12:04:52 <andythenorth> completely separate issue: when industries have intro dates, it's impossible to balance industry types reliably at game start (for different start dates)
12:05:21 <Alberth> afaik you basically get X industries at the start, and X grows VERY slowly in time
12:05:24 <Eddi|zuHause> so if you have a map with 40 industries and 80 "industry slots", equally distributed, but 5 industries are not available, then only 70 industries are on the map
12:05:40 <andythenorth> should sum the probabilities the same way too
12:05:47 <Alberth> so you basically only get new industries (and types of industries) by closing old ones
12:06:06 <andythenorth> so if game is trying to build 55 industries
12:06:27 * andythenorth needs to be better at explaining
12:06:32 <Eddi|zuHause> so if an industry now becomes available, it immediately gets 2 open slots for industry creation, despite the map being already full of industries
12:06:35 <andythenorth> there is a solution here
12:06:44 <andythenorth> based on the action 0 probs
12:06:59 <andythenorth> and summing those, dividing by number of industries required
12:07:27 <andythenorth> then checking cb 22 and reducing number of industries required accordingly
12:07:42 <Alberth> I start to think the current system is too static
12:07:42 <andythenorth> I'm sure I've explained that inadequately
12:07:56 <Alberth> the idea by Eddi could be one step
12:08:03 <andythenorth> I should make a paste of all the associated issues
12:08:15 <andythenorth> we also have the problem of hilly or mountainous maps
12:08:21 <andythenorth> where industry simply can't find a valid location
12:08:27 <Alberth> but tbh, I don't exactly know what one would want from industries in the game
12:09:11 <andythenorth> ok assume you start in 1800, and 33% of your industries are unavailable, and you have industry setting normal
12:09:56 <andythenorth> so you get 36 industries built, according to the relative probabilities of the subset of available industries
12:10:05 <Eddi|zuHause> there needs to be a "static" industry availability callback (that does not depend on *where* the industry should be built) and a *dynamic* industry availability callback (that depends on the location)
12:10:31 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: just the year should be enough?
12:10:59 <Alberth> and you may want an 'ending' year too
12:11:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: well, all "global" NewGRF variables (should global storage ever be introduced)
12:12:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: weird idea #45255: certain industries could only appear if there is a company with rating >800
12:12:43 <Alberth> andythenorth: I think the current system is mostly designed for the static set of default industries
12:13:05 <Alberth> and thus it fails horribly with the dynamic systems you try in FIRS
12:13:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: the default set has an "ending" year for oil wells
12:13:49 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, but #45255 makes any form of planning impossible
12:14:00 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: that's a special case afaik
12:15:22 <Alberth> I am pondering whether you can ditch all existing stuff, and move it all to some simple experimenting environment
12:15:35 <Alberth> so you can actually test what you want to have
12:16:15 <Eddi|zuHause> embed a game script into the industry newgrf :)
12:17:03 <Alberth> sure, but newgrf spec is very much in the way for any official way of doing that
12:17:36 <Alberth> and basically kills any option for experimenting
12:18:14 <Alberth> perhaps with a source code patch?
12:18:48 <Eddi|zuHause> the general idea of newgrfs is that the game provides a flexible algorithm that can be tuned by some parameters, which the newgrf can then set
12:19:29 <frosch123> maybe we can somehow accelerate closure of old industries
12:19:52 <frosch123> i.e. if there are a lot more industries of one type than there should be, make it more likely for them too close
12:20:06 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: currently FIRS has no closure at all. which takes some of the dynamics out of it
12:20:34 <Alberth> frosch123: but the newgrf decides, not the program
12:20:38 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: ah, so firs breaks that :p
12:20:56 <Alberth> frosch123: otherwise I would have implemented your idea long ago
12:21:03 <Eddi|zuHause> basically it removes the ability of self-tuning beyond "add an additional industry every X years"
12:24:07 <Alberth> being able to shut down industries, and changing creation probabilities over time may be sufficient to get changing industry types in time
12:24:42 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: your idea of reserving would work at the cost of less industries to play with at the start
12:25:34 <frosch123> so, should we relax the industry production change callbacks?
12:25:58 <frosch123> instead of letting them make a definite decisions, make them return likelyness of closure/changes
12:26:08 <frosch123> so ottd can close the one which complains the least
12:26:30 <frosch123> we already have the changing probabilities over time
12:28:12 <Alberth> imo, an industry cannot decide how much it likes to be closed, other than for local use
12:28:25 <Alberth> that however is easy to see by openttd as well
12:28:46 <frosch123> it can decide proximity to towns or, height or whatever
12:29:06 <frosch123> all those weird rules in pbi and ecs
12:30:16 <frosch123> a industry might also consider servicing some cargos more important that others
12:32:04 <Alberth> should a user be able to postpone 'eminent closure' ?
12:32:17 <Alberth> eg by paying a sum of money?
12:32:23 * drac_boy thankfully is not going to have to put up with this for my project :p
12:32:26 <Eddi|zuHause> but that does still not help if the industry grf decides "no closure whatsoever"
12:32:47 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: don't play with that grf
12:33:08 <Alberth> or do play if you want static industries
12:33:38 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said above. "random" closure is bad
12:35:58 <andythenorth> - global newgrf storage has been ruled out multiple times
12:37:15 <andythenorth> "new industry types don't get built" seems to unpick a lot of other issues about newgrf industry behaviour
12:37:21 <andythenorth> that wasn't quite my intention :)
12:38:11 <andythenorth> I don't see how we can make openttd handle closure etc and honour 'everything should be done via newgrf'
12:38:37 <andythenorth> we just end up with behaviour in the core game that annoys some subset of players
12:38:45 <andythenorth> we already have that, so why bother changing that code :)
12:39:00 <Alberth> make andy less unhappy?
12:39:07 <andythenorth> i.e. swap old annoyance for new annoyance :P
12:39:21 <andythenorth> solving closure is quite easy: turn it off in newgrf
12:39:29 <Eddi|zuHause> there is probably no "perfect" solution
12:39:32 <frosch123> andythenorth: if opening and closure is mostyl controlled by ottd, we can add an economy speed setting
12:39:41 <Eddi|zuHause> but i think there is room for improvement
12:39:43 <andythenorth> solving opening might also benefit from the same approach: don't require opening
12:40:04 <frosch123> however, biggest problem remains: primary industries close when they keep on reducing production; not when they make a "close" decision
12:40:43 <frosch123> andythenorth: i thought opening is already perfect
12:40:51 <frosch123> just closure is the problem
12:41:07 <frosch123> and newgrfs disabling closure might break opening in certain cases
12:41:20 <andythenorth> closure is broken imho, but we know that can't be fixed
12:41:27 <andythenorth> so I just turn off closure, problem solved
12:41:42 <frosch123> by that "solving" you break opening :p
12:41:47 <frosch123> and you do not really solve anything
12:41:47 <andythenorth> and I don't try and solve it any more for players who want it on
12:41:59 <frosch123> as smithy forges will just remain till year 3000
12:42:04 <andythenorth> but they have to anyway
12:42:34 <andythenorth> it's a FIRS requirement that it doesn't break delivery chains for co-op style games
12:43:03 <andythenorth> so if disabling closure causes problems opening new industry types....
12:43:08 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you can't have "never close" and "industry ages"... it's two conflicting ideas
12:43:25 <andythenorth> I should remove inro dates
12:43:46 <Eddi|zuHause> you should allow closing outdated industries
12:43:55 <andythenorth> but that's against the set goals
12:44:04 <andythenorth> I've alienated enough of the contributors already
12:44:12 <Eddi|zuHause> you should relax the ill-conceived set goals
12:44:15 <andythenorth> I don't think I can keep changing the goals
12:44:22 <NGC3982> I have a dedicated 1.2.1 server running. A standard generated map with the current NewGRF's: ECS/FIRS vehicle set, ECS cargoset, ECS town, basic II, chemicals, construction, machinery and wood vector. FISH 0.9.2, eGRVTS v1.0 and 2cc 2.0.0.
12:44:32 <frosch123> andythenorth: if you want static industries, yuo have to drop introduction dates
12:44:39 <NGC3982> For some reason, people trying to join can't get the GRF's from the online-content
12:44:41 <frosch123> replace them with upgradnig industries
12:44:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you already have a setting, make it three-state: "never close", "only close outdated", "close randomly"
12:44:52 <frosch123> just turn all smithy forges into steelmills at some date
12:44:58 <frosch123> and maybe make them accept more cargos
12:45:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and make "close outdated" the default
12:47:07 <andythenorth> so that's closing
12:47:12 <andythenorth> opening is still broken
12:47:18 <andythenorth> why shouldn't I just drop intro dates?
12:47:36 <andythenorth> even with closing, they're broken
12:47:54 <Eddi|zuHause> you could drop intro dates, but then you have to implement economies :)
12:48:07 <andythenorth> I can't do that without a python conversion, or a collaborator
12:48:11 <andythenorth> I can do the python conversion
12:48:29 <andythenorth> I refuse to touch the cpp stuff
12:48:40 <andythenorth> it's hard to work with, and I get shouted at here for asking questions about it
12:48:53 <Alberth> NGC3982: work is being done on the servers currently, I think
12:49:01 <andythenorth> sick of being told "you're an idiot for using the wrong tools" when I didn't write the codebase
12:49:40 <andythenorth> most of the industry types are new, they don't replace an old type
12:50:03 <andythenorth> but the game makes no effort to build them as there are enough industries on the map
12:50:48 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i have nothing to add there beyond what i suggested above
12:50:51 <andythenorth> [if I've understood the code correctly]
12:51:43 <andythenorth> so what are the problems with running cb22 monthly?
12:52:01 <andythenorth> currently newgrf can control closure but not opening
12:52:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the question was: "what does it solve"?
12:52:20 <andythenorth> newgrf can force industries to open, assuming they can find a valid site on the map
12:52:30 <Alberth> andythenorth: new industries have very few instance on the map, so they get a higher probability to be used as replacement
12:54:13 <Alberth> assuming industries get replaced, otherwise they must be added through the slowly incrementing number of industries at the map, but that is VERY slow
12:54:44 <andythenorth> my proposal is to simply bypass the industry creation during gameplay
12:54:54 <andythenorth> philosophically, I can't see any problem
12:55:05 <andythenorth> let the newgrf control it
12:55:43 <andythenorth> maybe it's simply a new cb
12:56:31 <andythenorth> maybe it just runs monthly, and calls DoCreateNewIndustry() or not, based on cb result
12:56:42 <andythenorth> maybe it can run multiple times too
12:58:22 <andythenorth> cb160: monthly industry construction check. Called or each industry type. Return 0 to build none, or return number of this type to try and build
12:59:45 <Alberth> that breaks any chance of a GS that manages industries
12:59:52 <andythenorth> that horse bolted already
13:01:05 <frosch123> it also fails for multiple industry sets
13:03:25 <andythenorth> an alternative idea...
13:03:33 <andythenorth> actually figure out an interface between GS and Newgrf
13:03:41 <andythenorth> forget backwards compatibility with existing industry sets
13:03:54 <andythenorth> i.e. don't break them, but they're not GS compatible
13:04:01 <andythenorth> then solve these FIRS problems in a GS
13:04:18 <frosch123> because you cannot balance the total number of industries against other sets
13:04:34 <andythenorth> frosch123 I'm not sure that's a real world goal
13:05:07 <andythenorth> how about I solve it like this for now:
13:05:27 <andythenorth> - remove the intro dates (and associated lang stuff)
13:05:38 <andythenorth> - put the diff somewhere safe
13:05:45 <andythenorth> - await a future solution, possibly mythical
13:05:59 <andythenorth> - reapply the diff to FIRS at that point
13:06:24 <andythenorth> all FIRS industries will be available irrespective of start date
13:06:59 <andythenorth> but it can be better in future
13:07:18 <Alberth> tag the last revision with the dates, and it's safe
13:07:45 <andythenorth> I'm bored of trying to make f
13:08:06 * andythenorth is bored of not being able to type properly
13:08:13 <andythenorth> screwed up my wrists holding children
13:08:20 <andythenorth> can't tell if I've hit a key or missed it :P
13:08:42 <Alberth> and they are too yound to type, I guess :)
13:08:51 <andythenorth> too young to type anything useful
13:09:06 <andythenorth> anyway, I'm bored of trying to make things work that are fundamentally broken :)
13:09:14 <andythenorth> and every time it's discussed we can't even agree goals
13:10:18 <andythenorth> I could take the lame (avoid conflict) route, and make intro dates a parameter
13:10:23 <andythenorth> but I don't know how to code that
13:11:34 * andythenorth is being too noisy and will go away
13:15:14 <andythenorth> if I remove the intro date from the steel mill, might as well remove the iron works industry
13:18:05 <Alberth> I think we can agree on a goal for industries, but nobody has thought about that deeply enough and/or cared to write it down. Until we have an overall agreed idea of what an industry set should actually do in the game, we won't get anywhere probably.
13:18:05 <Alberth> The big complication here is that the solution is probably between cpp and newgrf, so you need a person that understands both to solve it
13:18:36 <andythenorth> wrt what industry set can do, we can only write down proper domain
13:18:52 <andythenorth> as there's obviously no agreement amongst players / authors about industry sets :)
13:19:13 <andythenorth> what's in scope for industry newgrf, and what they must yield to other things
13:19:24 <Alberth> I can live with several goals, selectable by newgrf
13:19:33 <Alberth> or by player or whatever
13:19:51 <andythenorth> is it annoying to type multiple lines here? is a paste better?
13:19:58 <andythenorth> I am going to list aims of FIRS
13:20:06 <andythenorth> and then we can mark them valid or not
13:20:38 <Alberth> irc is so quickly lost
13:38:23 <NGC3982> This headache will be the death of me.
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13:45:10 <andythenorth> look at the raw version, it wordwraps :P
13:45:44 <andythenorth> Also should add "FIRS will not attempt to be compatible with other industry sets"
13:48:41 <Alberth> "We also want it to be a lot of fun." lol :) nice goal, but hard to code :)
13:49:23 <Alberth> I copied the text into my editor and pushed some sanity into it :)
13:49:32 <andythenorth> I found some typos :P
13:49:55 <andythenorth> most of the goals are met or abandoned
13:50:31 <andythenorth> I should add "Don't much restrict where players can build industries (we don't)"
13:50:52 <Eddi|zuHause> "There will be 50 industries" <-- how strict is that goal?
13:50:57 <andythenorth> And also "Don't tie up map gen for ages with complex industry location rules"
13:51:16 <NGC3982> Alberth: I can join my game locally, so online-content should not be an issue.
13:51:22 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: not strict, it's co-incidence that I currently have 49
13:51:27 <andythenorth> could be more, could be less
13:52:06 <NGC3982> If someone has the time, please join the ttd server at ttd.dndr.se:3979 (password: kebab) and note possible errors while handling the server GRF's?
13:52:19 <Eddi|zuHause> then rephrase it as "the aim is at around 50 industries"... but a better thing would be something like "X industries per timeframe/economy"
13:52:23 <NGC3982> That would help me see if anything is wrong with the online-content i have used, or the actual server.
13:54:13 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: changed it to reference economies
13:54:21 <andythenorth> and 'industry types' not 'industries'
13:54:39 <Alberth> NGC3982: sorry, don't have that in my archive
13:55:47 <NGC3982> But, being able to join locally or online should not affect how a client downloads online-content
13:55:56 <andythenorth> the only FIRS goal that's really blocked is "Some types of industry close and new ones appear"
13:56:11 <andythenorth> and the first part of that I could do
13:56:16 <andythenorth> the second part I can't
13:56:46 <andythenorth> but it seems to be like a thumb in dyke (dutchies will like this :P )
13:56:51 <Alberth> andythenorth: your "big industry" problem is about not being to specify wanted terraform wishes with an industry
13:57:12 <andythenorth> although even then, there's only so many mountains you can knock down
13:57:18 <andythenorth> might be tmwftlb
13:57:37 <Alberth> the game might impose a max amount of terraforming
13:57:53 <andythenorth> allow it to fill in sea :P
13:58:24 * NGC3982 terraforms andythenorth
13:58:25 <andythenorth> seems that trying to fix industry opening unpicks all of industry newgrf spec :P
13:58:25 <Alberth> nice, finally a chance to use your ships :p
13:58:54 * andythenorth is about to go to a pirate party
13:59:02 <andythenorth> the toddler kind
13:59:11 <andythenorth> what I'd appreciate is nitpick replies on the goals
13:59:26 <Alberth> I believe your opening problem is a result of your not-closing old industries policy
13:59:43 <andythenorth> but that assumes new types are 1:1 replacement of old types
13:59:50 <andythenorth> but almost entirely, they're not
14:00:02 <Alberth> why does it assume that?
14:00:37 <andythenorth> closing old types makes way for new types?
14:01:31 <andythenorth> so in the case where there are no old types to close?
14:01:36 <andythenorth> there'll be no space
14:02:03 <andythenorth> bear in mind I mostly removed 'old types'
14:02:15 <NGC3982> * andythenorth is about to go to a pirate party
14:02:17 <Alberth> you have too many of some industry-types, and too few of other types. Closing an industry causes a search for a replacement, where a type with too few current instances gets a higher probability to be used
14:02:25 <NGC3982> Yarr, and a train of men.
14:02:29 <andythenorth> so the problem is new types?
14:02:50 <NGC3982> andythenorth: How does children and coding match?
14:03:38 <Alberth> the problem is "replacement" which you are not doing, then, isn't it?
14:03:51 <andythenorth> you can make that case yes
14:03:57 <andythenorth> I'm not sure that's the root cause
14:04:06 <Alberth> no idea how to fix that though :(
14:04:27 <andythenorth> if I start a game in 1870....these types all need to get built: Fertiliser Plant, Bio Refinery, Aluminium Plant, Bauxite Mine, Cement Plant, Recycling Plant, Recycling Depot, Oil Platform, Oil Wells, Oil Refinery, Dairy, Petrol Pump, Plastics Plant,
14:04:40 <andythenorth> and meanwhile 0 industries are closing
14:04:52 <Alberth> you can get new industries by 2 ways, either create extra ones, or replace old ones by new ones. OpenTTD does mostly the latter
14:05:20 <Alberth> or rather "assumes that to happen"
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14:16:35 <andythenorth_> Is var 67 available to cb 22?
14:17:40 <Chris_Booth> I never knew I have a Var 67
14:17:51 <andythenorth_> I could limit total num each type on map
14:18:04 <andythenorth_> Scaled by map size
14:18:35 <andythenorth_> Leaving room for new types
14:21:31 <Alberth> at the cost of fewer industries early in the game (if you can access var 67)
14:29:34 <Alberth> I considered that solution, but discarded it on the argument that it is nonsense to keep free industry slots for 90 years just because in 2020 a new industry becomes available
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14:57:18 <drac_boy> up to anything or not so much?
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15:31:03 <drush> just finished trying out my corei7 build of zdoom
15:32:21 <drush> not sure if choppy fps while turning is fault of stepping down optimization from O3 to O2, would have to trial an O3 build
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15:36:23 <andythenorth_> For an early start date few industries might be nice anyway
15:36:31 <andythenorth_> Although perhaps not
15:41:10 <drush> andythenorth_ have you played industry giant games?
15:44:15 <drac_boy> drush I used to a bit
15:46:13 <drac_boy> and mm well its not related to transportation I know..but I still like Capitalism sometimes
15:49:30 <drush> in ottd it's actually possible to control the market, just saying
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16:13:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: could try an industry scheme based on distinct phases?
16:13:28 <andythenorth> not sure it fixes the opening problem, but...overlook that now
16:13:37 <andythenorth> I'm open to your suggestions on this
16:25:46 <Alberth> andythenorth: about your goals, I was thinking a bit more high level, as in, what is the function of an industry set in the game, what does it provide to a player?
16:26:05 <andythenorth> I wasn't intending we agree / disagree on FIRS goals
16:26:18 <andythenorth> it's just...evidence of what has come up in 4 years of FIRS
16:26:40 <andythenorth> empiricism, not theory ;)
16:28:17 <andythenorth> so what *must* an industry set provide:
16:28:21 <andythenorth> - industries, yes
16:28:41 <andythenorth> - cargos: arguably not, but it's silly not to
16:28:55 <andythenorth> what must an industry set not provide:
16:29:09 <andythenorth> - other features, e.g. new objects, vehicles etc. And especially houses.
16:30:22 <andythenorth> TAI probably violates a number of those
16:30:25 <andythenorth> and it will probably be good
16:31:33 <Alberth> it needs some more work, I think, as your own list is not a good instance of this list of requirements
16:32:03 <andythenorth> are we trying to solve GS here as well?
16:32:41 <Alberth> let's abstract from how we reach the goal(s)
16:34:13 <Alberth> eg your "Industries will belong to certain time periods." seems to be missing, or is that not a goal in general?
16:34:35 <andythenorth> it's not a general goal
16:35:00 <andythenorth> unless you define that it includes '1 time period - eternity'
16:35:08 <andythenorth> which then makes it a bit useless :)
16:36:04 <Alberth> my problem is a bit that "industries + cargos" is so generic that it gives no direction
16:36:31 <Alberth> not sure how to fix it, but perhaps how industries interact with the player?????
16:37:19 <Alberth> but perhaps that's already too complicated :(
16:38:04 <Alberth> or too controversial :p
16:39:04 <Alberth> make kinds of industry interaction?
16:39:21 <Alberth> eg one type of player probably wants fixed industries throughout the game
16:39:44 <Alberth> other players want more dynamic behaviour
16:39:57 <andythenorth> static vs dynamic?
16:40:13 <andythenorth> work out what it takes to provide each?
16:40:18 <Alberth> my guess is there are several forms of dynamic
16:40:48 <Alberth> work out what useful forms there are seems complicated enough to me atm
16:40:51 <andythenorth> I get bored quickly with taxonomy though :)
16:41:03 * andythenorth is not a good librarian
16:41:35 <andythenorth> FIRS is not doing either form well
16:42:02 <andythenorth> might be enough to say be either static or dynamic
16:42:07 <Alberth> dynamic on time, dynamic on production level, dynamic on user-interaction?
16:42:24 <andythenorth> dynamic on open/close
16:42:32 <andythenorth> so there are dimensions
16:43:05 <Alberth> dynamic w.r.t production changes
16:46:10 <Alberth> dynamic w.r.t. number of industries in the world
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16:47:52 <Alberth> what challenge should an industry set provide to the player?
16:48:45 <Alberth> dynamic w.r.t. placement of industries?
17:01:51 <andythenorth> I've moved a lot of FIRS industries to start dates just before 1830
17:02:00 <andythenorth> those are the earliest trains in Pikka's sets
17:02:16 <andythenorth> before that, it's masochistic to play OpenTTD :P
17:02:25 * andythenorth usually starts 1870
17:15:35 * Alberth has already read "the design of the Unix operating system"
17:18:27 <andythenorth> Alberth: another dimension for industry newgrf: cares about reality, or not
17:18:43 <andythenorth> for FIRS, I try to placate my inner nerd with semi-realistic intro dates / expiry dates
17:18:47 <Alberth> how do you measure that?
17:19:05 <andythenorth> dates, cargos, appearance
17:19:25 <andythenorth> production rules
17:19:37 <andythenorth> "cares about reality" implies dynamic
17:20:22 <Alberth> I understand that it is a industry set property, but what does it mean in technical game play ?
17:20:51 <andythenorth> if this progressed to specifying an interface to make industries, it would mean nothing
17:20:58 <andythenorth> it's a subset of Dynamic
17:21:34 <Alberth> yeah, it's a good openttd buzzword for selling stuff :)
17:21:37 <andythenorth> but I have multiple contradictory feature requests for FIRS, based on realism, so forget it :P
17:21:50 <andythenorth> "industries must locate in towns, more realistic"
17:22:00 <andythenorth> "industries must not locate in town, more realistic"
17:22:25 <andythenorth> static implies all cargos always available, whatever game year
17:22:33 <Alberth> oh, I thought "industries must not locate in towns, it is too complicated to play" :)
17:22:41 <andythenorth> don't start that debate :P
17:23:04 <andythenorth> I don't like non-available cargos btw
17:23:15 <andythenorth> it means there are vehicles that show a cargo capability, but the cargo is not on the map
17:23:27 <andythenorth> bothers my tidy mind
17:24:07 <Eddi|zuHause> introduce a callback to hide cargos from the GUI
17:24:29 <Eddi|zuHause> based on global data (game year)
17:24:33 <andythenorth> be a pain in the arse for vehicle set authors
17:24:51 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I was thinking about that too, but it makes vehicles unpredictable
17:25:03 <andythenorth> testing is difficult, more boring
17:25:19 <andythenorth> you might have wrong refittability, but not know it
17:25:23 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: what if none of the cargos is available?
17:25:37 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: then the vehicle is hidden
17:25:40 <Alberth> or only after refitting?
17:26:09 <andythenorth> it's a fair point though for dynamic gameplay
17:26:22 <andythenorth> should the cargo be visible or not
17:26:57 <Alberth> the game put down a new industry, and ploep, new vehicles, without getting advance testing opportunity
17:27:24 <andythenorth> another dimension: evilness :P
17:27:24 <Eddi|zuHause> let's assume the cargo callback is run once per year, then after the callback run, re-check all vehicles whether the refitability is now possible, and make those vehicles available then
17:27:47 <Eddi|zuHause> when the cargo is unavailable, the industry will not show it either
17:27:48 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I see no point in making that a cb, tbh
17:28:00 <andythenorth> game could check for acceptance on map?
17:28:07 <andythenorth> no acceptance, no point transporting
17:28:15 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: haha, no, you cannot make a coal mine, as you don't have other ones :D
17:29:15 <Alberth> oh, you mean something else :)
17:29:45 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i mean a callback directly for the cargo.
17:30:08 <Eddi|zuHause> once "COAL" says it's available, you can place coal mines and power stations
17:30:31 <Eddi|zuHause> once "STEL" says it's available, Factories say they accept steel (they accept livestock and grain before)
17:31:09 <andythenorth> keep it to hand :)
17:31:26 <andythenorth> if your cargo disappears?
17:31:30 <andythenorth> close industries?
17:31:51 <Alberth> reduce number of them
17:33:00 <andythenorth> example: FIRS milk could be hidden until [some date]
17:33:16 <andythenorth> then become available from Dairy Farms, triggering the construction of Dairies
17:33:30 <andythenorth> the reasons - realistic or otherwise - we can ignore for now
17:34:07 <andythenorth> Recyclables could be hidden, then when available, trigger construction of Recycling Depots / Plants
17:34:51 <andythenorth> definitely static not dynamic :)
17:35:22 <andythenorth> strikes me that whole chains appearing by date is more interesting than single new industries
17:35:48 <andythenorth> openttd gameplay does better with graph-type stuff
17:38:02 <Eddi|zuHause> pop up a news message "new cargo introduced: <type>. This new invention causes a temporary increase in economic activity."
17:38:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and then run the industry generator a few times
17:39:06 <Eddi|zuHause> and pop up news messages (or prototype previews) for new vehicles
17:39:23 <andythenorth> much more the gameplay I was trying to create with FIRS
17:39:35 <andythenorth> it's a straight copy of Railroad Tycoon 3 tbh :P
17:39:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never played that game
17:40:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i wonder if i still have RRT1 around somewhere
17:40:05 <andythenorth> new cargo becomes available, vehicles can now carry it, and the map will spawn a bunch of the new industries
17:40:20 <andythenorth> RT3 scenarios are quite tightly scripted, so it works rather well
17:40:52 <andythenorth> things like "1853: fertiliser plants are invented, you can now deliver fertiliser to farms for a 50% production boost"
17:41:16 <andythenorth> but also dynamic acceptance is possible, which we can't have
17:41:37 <andythenorth> "After 1860 all Iron Ore must be delivered to a Steel Mill; Tool Shops no longer accept it"
17:42:02 <andythenorth> we can nearly do that, but the industry window text is broken
17:44:59 <Eddi|zuHause> it's difficult to make cargo disappear, gameplay wise
17:45:15 <Eddi|zuHause> because there are existing industries and vehicles that carry them
17:45:50 <andythenorth> needs the equivalent of the climate availability trick for vehicles :P
17:45:54 <Eddi|zuHause> so first close all industries, then remove the cargo? what about industries that produce two things, the other thing doesn't have to disappear
17:45:57 <andythenorth> "no more will be produced"
17:46:12 <andythenorth> no the other thing doesn't disappear
17:46:25 <Eddi|zuHause> remove the cargo, leaving industries which don't produce anything?
17:48:14 <andythenorth> what if it's a secondary that requires both inputs?
17:48:21 <andythenorth> meh, in that case the author screwed up :P
17:48:26 <Eddi|zuHause> what about NewGRFs checking for cargo availability? they need separate checks for "is currently available" and "is potentially available in the future/past"
17:48:56 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what if the two industries are from different sets? :)
17:50:37 <andythenorth> what if we delegate all control of cargos to the GS?
17:50:57 <Alberth> that just shifts the problem imho
17:51:05 <andythenorth> industries become a little more dumb
17:51:28 <andythenorth> they simply produce or accept the active cargos according to [some internal rules]
17:51:45 <andythenorth> GS gets no control over production mechanic, but gets to control overall economy
17:51:53 <Alberth> hmm, we moved away from goals
17:52:00 <andythenorth> got a bit implementation-ish
17:52:16 <Eddi|zuHause> can't decide global economy when you can't make sense of local economy
17:52:35 <Eddi|zuHause> and you can't bundle newgrf and game script
17:52:48 <andythenorth> it's always baffled me quite a lot
17:52:52 <Alberth> why do you have changing industries, from a game play point of view?
17:53:04 <andythenorth> when we discuss GS and newgrf, on one hand it's refused that GS *must* depend on newgrf
17:53:13 <andythenorth> i.e. we want to be able to write GS that works with any newgrf
17:53:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: more dynamic/less boring
17:54:04 <andythenorth> on the other hand, we want tight integration between newgrf and GS, so GS can control everything
17:54:08 <andythenorth> kind of confusing to me
17:54:28 <Alberth> does it make a difference whether you are dynamic in changing production or in making/closing industries?
17:54:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: introducing a new cargo type is a different challenge after your network is already set up than when you start from scratch with all cargos present
17:55:55 <Eddi|zuHause> you might have to introduce a new delivery point, instead of delivering more to the same point
17:56:39 <Eddi|zuHause> many players connect all primary industries to the same secondary industry. that can't happen with completely new secondary industries
17:57:11 <Eddi|zuHause> (unless the player funds the industry directly next to his dropoff station, of course)
17:57:28 <Alberth> but they are all just forms of "interesting game play", I think
17:57:53 <Alberth> which some users like and others hate
17:57:54 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. different forms. different challenges.
17:57:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you've clarified what I meant above about graph based gameplay
17:58:15 <andythenorth> introducing a new industry which is just a variant of existing chains doesn't necessitate changing the graph
17:58:25 <andythenorth> they're mostly kind of boring, I've tried it in FIRS
17:58:27 <Eddi|zuHause> there needs to be a fundamental gameplay difference whether you play original, PBI, ECS or FIRS
17:58:30 <andythenorth> a new chain is a new graph
17:58:43 <Eddi|zuHause> not just lots of the same, with different graphics
17:59:05 * Alberth thinks of a certain new baset set :p
17:59:15 <andythenorth> FIRS suffers from trying not to be too flavoursome
17:59:26 <andythenorth> it's mostly just "more" + pretty graphics
17:59:42 <Alberth> or perhaps from not choosing?
17:59:58 <andythenorth> hence why I often contemplate removing supplies
18:00:09 <andythenorth> as they're the only contentious thing in it :P
18:00:18 <andythenorth> the middle of the road is a dangerous place to be though :P
18:00:39 <andythenorth> FISH, HEQS, and CHIPS are more definite in their character
18:01:11 * andythenorth has learnt a lesson from all this :P
18:02:35 *** Ryton was kicked by DorpsGek (Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.)
18:02:55 <Eddi|zuHause> oh what a rare sight these days :)
18:03:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: rather remove everything except the supplies and start designing from there :)
18:03:46 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: heh
18:03:51 <andythenorth> supplies are where I started :P
18:04:02 <andythenorth> I only invented them to give purpose to some small HEQS vehicles :P
18:04:07 <andythenorth> I should have stuck to that :P
18:04:33 <andythenorth> I wanted an industry set that would give me an excuse to include nodwells in HEQS
18:06:06 <Alberth> andythenorth: many people think supplies are a good idea
18:06:23 <andythenorth> yes but they don't agree which idea
18:06:33 <andythenorth> it's like in India. Everyone agrees Indian food is best.
18:06:46 <andythenorth> but get them in a room and they argue viciously about how it should be cooked :P
18:07:16 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I am 33% convinced that I should stop FIRS, declare it 1.0
18:07:21 <andythenorth> then start a new industry set
18:07:38 <andythenorth> I think economies are a bit of a sticking plaster on the whole concept
18:08:23 <andythenorth> I also want to learn GS so I can script scenarios that take 1-3 hours to play
18:08:39 <andythenorth> GS can be bound to specific newgrf via the scenario?
18:08:40 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't cram "old" and "new" industries in the same set without economies
18:09:20 <andythenorth> empirically you're correct :)
18:09:30 <Alberth> andythenorth: do they know what they like on supplies? (or is that where they disagree on?)
18:09:55 <andythenorth> pretty much universally, people like being able to control primary production
18:10:00 <andythenorth> after that, less agreement :P
18:11:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i like distributing a cargo to many different destinations, which have an impact (i don't like distributing mail, due to that second part). but i dislike scheduling drop-by-drop, so i want a stockpile
18:12:53 <andythenorth> I am considering 'just' making multiple industry newgrfs, each bound to a GS
18:13:21 <andythenorth> I can probably implement it with one core python build script, and a package for each newgrf that over-rides base classes
18:13:45 <andythenorth> all graphics etc can be global
18:13:51 <andythenorth> behaviour can be locally over-ridden
18:14:10 <andythenorth> then I put the kids to bed, and play 1 or 2 hours of challenge-driven gameplay
18:14:21 <andythenorth> then I go to sleep, get up at 5.30am and do it all again :P
18:14:40 <andythenorth> I stop worrying about multiplayer, or co-op gameplay, or realism or any of the other crap
18:15:05 <andythenorth> FIRS goes 1.0 and I stop working on it
18:15:27 <andythenorth> I get a lot of "don't change xyz" about FIRS, but not a lot of help maintaining or finishing
18:15:37 <andythenorth> 4 years is enough
18:16:21 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: do you actually play games? If so, how long do you play them for?
18:17:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the few times i play games, i either throw them away after a day, or i play them over several months
18:18:27 <Alberth> my last game was with FISH for the first time, and a lot of water, I got upto 2020+ iirc. Otherwise mostly a day, about 25-30 game years
18:19:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i have lots of games lying around that started in 1920 and stopped 1925-ish
18:19:38 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: mine go about 3 months :P
18:19:56 <Eddi|zuHause> and only few games which actually reached 2010-ish
18:20:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and i never reached 2050
18:20:16 <Eddi|zuHause> only 2030 in some old TT games
18:20:21 <andythenorth> what date do you start?
18:20:41 <Eddi|zuHause> due to lack of early vehicle set
18:20:49 <andythenorth> you need German?
18:21:01 <Eddi|zuHause> it's what i'm most familar with
18:21:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but it just doesn't have the same connection
18:21:48 <Eddi|zuHause> my NARS game that i played on the USA map is one of the 1925-ish games :)
18:21:56 <andythenorth> so in early games you also find a lack of trams, RVs etc?
18:22:21 <andythenorth> I was trying to support back to 1700-ish (DanMacK persuaded me)
18:22:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why i suggested making the horses of eGRVTS as a separate grf
18:22:28 <andythenorth> but now I'm not going earlier than 1870
18:22:41 <andythenorth> FISH and HEQS are being setup for start 1870-1875
18:23:05 <Eddi|zuHause> CETS is designed for 1870, 1920, 1950 and 1990 starts
18:23:31 <andythenorth> 1870 provides vehicles which aren't agonisingly slow and small
18:23:34 <Eddi|zuHause> but you can also start anywhere inbetween
18:23:45 <andythenorth> 1870 also means most heavy industry chains exist
18:24:00 <andythenorth> aluminium / plastics don't
18:24:21 <andythenorth> give or take some gameplay adjustments to reality
18:25:51 <andythenorth> plastics isn't a FIRS chain anyway, it's just an industry type
18:26:03 <andythenorth> it adds no new cargo transformations
18:26:42 * andythenorth starts thinking about set as multiple linkgraphs, with each graph comprising a set of transforms between cargo types
18:26:51 <andythenorth> probably doesn't help much :P
18:27:48 <andythenorth> the question of removing industries then becomes
18:27:57 <andythenorth> - does it eliminate a graph
18:28:09 <andythenorth> - or eliminate certain directed links in the graph
18:28:18 <andythenorth> opening industries then becomes:
18:28:23 <andythenorth> - does it create a new graph
18:28:36 <andythenorth> - or simply add links to the new node
18:29:04 <andythenorth> where each node is a particular transform of cargo, not an industry type
18:29:15 <andythenorth> so nothing -> COAL is a node
18:29:20 <andythenorth> COAL -> STEEL is a node
18:29:46 <andythenorth> that's not 100% right
18:29:51 <andythenorth> but it's interesting
18:30:01 <andythenorth> who's good at graphs? :P
18:31:29 <Rubidium> some people might say he is
18:31:35 <andythenorth> if Dairy Farm and Sheep Farm both produce livestock (from nothing), one node or two?
18:34:10 <andythenorth> probably the amounts are significant
18:34:13 <andythenorth> more so when processing
18:34:28 <andythenorth> 8 in = 2 out and 8 in = 4 out are two different nodes
18:34:51 <Rubidium> isn't livestock in tonnes, so it shouldn't matter that much I'd say
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18:36:19 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so safe to say you want more dynamic gameplay? Less static?
18:37:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i want more control over which parts are dynamic. don't just throw everything in there and pretend it's good gameplay
18:37:22 <andythenorth> you want control at which point?
18:37:25 <andythenorth> during the game?
18:37:28 <andythenorth> setting up the game?
18:37:32 <andythenorth> by choosing which newgrf?
18:38:45 <Eddi|zuHause> one of the later two mostly
18:40:40 <andythenorth> design smell: in default game, choosing climate is important for resulting gameplay
18:40:49 <andythenorth> with FIRS, it's kind of irrelevant, and 'meh'
18:41:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i think that's alright
18:41:30 <andythenorth> I'm not suggesting tying to climate
18:41:38 <andythenorth> more that original game contains 4 gameplay options
18:41:51 <Eddi|zuHause> so? and FIRS contains a 5th gameplay option
18:42:23 <andythenorth> so my point is, how about a 6th? :)
18:42:29 <Eddi|zuHause> why does FIRS artificially need a 6th, 7th and 8th gameplay option if it doesn't want to?
18:42:38 <andythenorth> I'm bored of it?
18:42:47 <Eddi|zuHause> why mut that 6th option tie to climates?
18:43:00 <andythenorth> no that's not essential
18:43:10 <Eddi|zuHause> that 6th option is exactly "economies"
18:44:04 <andythenorth> rather than make separate, simpler newgrfs?
18:44:29 <Eddi|zuHause> that's an implementation decision, not a design decision
18:44:49 <andythenorth> I am feeling more constrained by implementation, but nvm
18:44:54 <Eddi|zuHause> can make economies via parameter, or via separate (exclusive) newgrfs
18:45:07 <Eddi|zuHause> or addon-newgrfs like "vectors"
18:45:11 <andythenorth> so we already have plenty of ideas for economies wrt to industry and cargo inclusion
18:45:15 <andythenorth> what about gameplay?
18:45:24 <andythenorth> in my design for economies, most gameplay remains same
18:45:28 <andythenorth> for testing and coding reasons
18:45:43 <andythenorth> valid, or silly?
18:45:55 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe small variations
18:47:09 <Eddi|zuHause> for example the "graph": the "basic" economy could have few large farms, while the "agriculture" economy could have many small farms (with clustering)
18:47:52 <andythenorth> so that totally changes required network topology
18:47:52 <Eddi|zuHause> each setting a different focus on how to distribute supplies and gather the cargo for longer hauls
18:48:46 <andythenorth> so our primary design question is 'what network topologies does this encourage' ?
18:48:54 <andythenorth> followed by "is it a fun narrative" ?
18:50:12 <andythenorth> so one variation might indeed be handling of delivered supplies
18:50:48 <Eddi|zuHause> let's start with 3 economies: "basic" - introducing the concept of supplies, but changing not a lot from original gameplay otherwise. "agriculture" - lots of small industries with a spread out network topology. "manufacturing" - very long chains of industries, hauling cargo back and forth, potentially for a feedback effect
18:51:30 <Eddi|zuHause> imagine "manufacturing" like car suppliers and stuff
18:52:05 <andythenorth> industry closing / opening affects network topology. So part of the economy? Or a parameter (not favoured by me)
18:52:23 <Eddi|zuHause> it really should be a parameter
18:52:40 <Eddi|zuHause> but it would be better if the game offered it as difficulty setting
18:52:52 <andythenorth> parameter because it's better? Or because people will whine?
18:53:39 <Eddi|zuHause> vehicle sets don't forbid breakdowns just because the author hates them
18:53:46 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a game setting like it should be
18:53:53 <Eddi|zuHause> players can decide for themselves
18:54:00 <andythenorth> breakdowns affect network topology?
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18:54:41 <Eddi|zuHause> just browse the screenshot/savegame forums for layouts how to service depots effectively :)
18:55:33 * andythenorth wonders idly, what if we stopped arsing about in newgrf, and provided a better open / close behaviour in game
18:56:28 <andythenorth> it's such a common player request, to prevent closing
18:56:36 <andythenorth> and if done sanely, it could be exposed to GS :P
18:56:51 <Eddi|zuHause> but then all the "yet another advanced setting" trolls come out
18:57:15 <Eddi|zuHause> saying "it's already possible in NewGRF. won't be done"
18:57:22 <andythenorth> horse has bolted
18:57:32 <andythenorth> 10 million advanced settings already
18:58:54 <andythenorth> can the trolls go away and write an industry newgrf
18:58:55 <Eddi|zuHause> what frosch123 said earlier could be interesting, an "economy speed" setting. frequency of opening/closing independent from amount of industries
18:59:14 <andythenorth> and also can the trolls write a GS-newgrf interface definition :P
19:01:15 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: opening/closing would respect cb22 etc?
19:01:27 <andythenorth> sounds like an alternative way to solve my industry opening problem :P
19:01:40 <andythenorth> but that's a distraction
19:01:45 <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly does cb22 do?
19:01:57 <andythenorth> industry availability: no | probability
19:02:18 <andythenorth> called when the game tries to generate an industry, or player funds
19:02:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see why it wouldn't respect that...
19:04:05 <andythenorth> I'm reading industry_cmd.cpp to see when industries are generated during game
19:04:08 <andythenorth> can't find the call
19:04:21 <andythenorth> there's a MonthlyLoop that handles how many are *needed*
19:04:29 <andythenorth> but doesn't make the call to try and build them
19:05:30 <andythenorth> closure is driven by ChangeIndustryProduction()
19:05:43 <andythenorth> which is called monthly and [occasionally - can't figure out when]
19:06:09 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: CreateNewIndustryHelper?
19:08:01 <andythenorth> I don't think that's got the loop for 'generate industry during gameplay'?
19:08:24 <andythenorth> IndustryDailyLoop
19:08:42 <Eddi|zuHause> but you can check from where it's called
19:08:46 <Eddi|zuHause> and then backwards
19:09:05 <andythenorth> // Between 3% and 9% chance of creating a new industry
19:11:11 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, _industry_builder.TryBuildNewIndustry();
19:12:02 <andythenorth> so currently this is called every day
19:12:48 <andythenorth> and the requirements for num. industries are adjusted monthly, more or less in sync with industry closing + removing from map
19:12:54 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it sums up industry_daily_change_counter until it tips over
19:13:05 <andythenorth> details I miss in C++ :|
19:15:57 <Eddi|zuHause> so the game could track the return values of cb22, and if an industry becomes available, increase the industry counter temporarily
19:16:34 <andythenorth> that more or less implements what I requested, differently :)
19:17:06 <Eddi|zuHause> combine that with reserving one industry slot per unavailable industry
19:17:21 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, that doesn't quite work
19:17:59 <Eddi|zuHause> if an industry becomes available, and another unavailable at the same time, the number of reserved slots doesn't change
19:18:15 <Eddi|zuHause> so no industry will be created
19:18:33 <Eddi|zuHause> since it doesn't count the slots per-industry
19:18:42 <Eddi|zuHause> which would be more complicated
19:19:23 <Eddi|zuHause> when the industry is unavailable, it can also not predict the probability
19:19:43 <andythenorth> that bit is complicated yes :P
19:20:09 <andythenorth> I'm not sure that I'm wrong with my idea (I would do it in newgrf initially) of reserving slots at game start
19:20:59 <andythenorth> so if 50 industries are required, but 10% of types not available yet, I only allow 45 to be built
19:23:52 <Eddi|zuHause> possibility: introduce a flag, so in cb22 you can return "disable | probability | force". then the game would build this industry despite no slots being available
19:24:29 <Eddi|zuHause> if you can check for number of industries of same type during cb22
19:25:18 <andythenorth> is 'force' covered by 'there must be at least one instance of this industry'?
19:25:28 <andythenorth> there's something in the code about that, didn't understand it last night
19:25:42 <andythenorth> I know that flag is supposed to prevent closing
19:25:52 <andythenorth> but can't tell what it does during random generation
19:26:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really know either
19:26:49 <andythenorth> not sure Alberth does either
19:26:54 <Eddi|zuHause> but you could "force" more than one industry per map
19:26:56 <andythenorth> I think when he tried to fix it he found some oddities
19:27:13 <Eddi|zuHause> which would be necessary for farms on small maps
19:27:35 <Eddi|zuHause> where the number of industry slots is usually significantly lower than the number of industry types
19:28:15 <andythenorth> for a 256x256 map, FIRS needs at least 'normal' industry setting
19:28:25 <andythenorth> numof_industry_table
19:28:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i played 128x256 with "high", and still got only one industry per type
19:29:00 <andythenorth> maybe the game should query the newgrf for num types defined
19:29:10 <andythenorth> then calculate the ratios for high, low etc
19:29:11 <Eddi|zuHause> which makes farms rather annoying
19:30:05 <andythenorth> which is fine for default temperate, with 10 types
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19:30:39 <andythenorth> fails for Arctic interestingly
19:30:52 <andythenorth> looks like default industries don't use the 'force one' flag
19:32:26 <andythenorth> there are quite a number of interesting options here
19:32:35 <andythenorth> how does 'economy speed' work for the player?
19:33:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i presume it changes industry_daily_increment. so you get fewer openings, not sure about closings
19:34:10 <Eddi|zuHause> possibly the 256-tick callback could be delayed
19:34:17 <andythenorth> I think we leave internal behaviour of newgrfs out of this pondering for now
19:34:19 <Eddi|zuHause> breaking ECS in multiple places ;)
19:34:37 <andythenorth> assume vanilla industries
19:34:56 <V453000> ecs is broken itself already ;)
19:35:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't tried ECS in ages
19:35:56 <andythenorth> ach, it's very hard doing industry sets, ECS gets unfairly reviewed
19:36:25 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: number of random industry changes/opening/closures
19:36:29 <frosch123> number of calls to cb 35
19:36:48 <frosch123> only works if industries do not make "monthly" decisions
19:36:49 <andythenorth> frosch123: what would you do with monthly prod change? [/me is baffled]
19:36:59 <frosch123> i consider monthly crap :p
19:37:08 <andythenorth> that explains something :P
19:37:17 <andythenorth> I consider monthly only sane route :P
19:37:26 <andythenorth> this is why we have not been able to agree a fix to closure :P
19:38:04 <frosch123> if you use monthly the number of events depend on the number of industries, so usually you have a self-enforcing system
19:38:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely remember that ECS broke on some of the daylength patches, because the 256-tick callback was called on daylenght*256 ticks
19:38:14 <frosch123> if industries tend to become more, they become way more
19:38:30 <frosch123> if industries tend to close, they close faster the more they are
19:38:44 <frosch123> random change otoh is independent of total number of industries
19:38:57 <frosch123> (though it behaves bad if there are very few industries on the map)
19:39:06 <frosch123> thus economy speed would have to consider the desired industry density
19:40:20 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that's is only a faulty implementation
19:40:43 <frosch123> ecs accumulates cargo delivered in a month
19:40:59 <frosch123> and then decides for an absolute production amount for the next month
19:41:29 <frosch123> it then produced 1/8 of that planned amount, which fails if there are more than 8 production cycles
19:41:50 <frosch123> it could be coded totally daylength agnostic, if it would use the day of the month
19:42:19 <Eddi|zuHause> afair it relied on the tick counter
19:42:23 <frosch123> and then produce (day of month)/31 * (planned amount) - (already produced this month)
19:45:34 <andythenorth> so in case of monthly cb, prod change I would retain in FIRS
19:45:41 <andythenorth> but closure could be delegated
19:46:01 <andythenorth> I know they're tied together by the return values, but I would find a way to figure that out
19:46:05 <frosch123> andythenorth: the problem are primary industries
19:46:25 <frosch123> everyone seems to model them in some way, that they close when the production drops below some amount
19:46:46 <NGC3982> Im kind of noticing something i don't feel the favour of.
19:47:19 <NGC3982> Using the 2CC set, i notice that selecting engines due to anything but maximum speed is completely irrelevant to the result.
19:47:30 <frosch123> and everyone makes production changes monthly and depend on servicing
19:47:35 <NGC3982> Even in hard games, with very hilly terrain.
19:47:42 <andythenorth> frosch123: isn't that just default behaviour?
19:48:29 <frosch123> if you want a set that heads for gameplay/playability
19:48:35 <NGC3982> I can't complain, of course. The numbers are realistic and i love the diversity of different engines
19:49:11 <NGC3982> (At least in the first part of the game) :P
19:49:13 <frosch123> diversity in 2cc set?
19:49:18 <frosch123> i thought it only has mmu?
19:50:35 * frosch123 bets V453000 has a highlight on nuts :p
19:50:51 <V453000> no I just randomly read channels once upon a time :)
19:50:56 <andythenorth> frosch123: so newgrf authors should never return 03 or 04 from monthly prod change?
19:51:02 <V453000> I dont have any highlights in fact :)
19:51:02 <NGC3982> V453000: Don't you agree? :/
19:51:04 <frosch123> NGC3982: all those tgv, ice, stuff
19:51:26 <frosch123> front/back engine with matching wagons in the middle
19:51:30 <V453000> NGC3982: yes, it is realistic, I basically laugh at the word realistic where-ever used :p
19:51:45 <NGC3982> frosch123: Yes. With diversity, i mean the great number of trains and numbers in what-ever-era-you-play-at-era.
19:51:47 <frosch123> instead of some engine pulling a random selection of wagon
19:52:15 <NGC3982> V453000: Hehe. Well, subjective relativity strikes lika SCUD in Bagdad.
19:52:34 <NGC3982> frosch123: Ah, i see.
19:52:35 <V453000> NGC3982: the general gameplay problem of 2cc set is that there are only like 4 strongest engines ... meaning you get one in 1920, second in 1936, third in 1970 and fourth in 2000, done
19:52:42 <V453000> not what I call diversity :)
19:53:10 <frosch123> andythenorth: monthly changes make every industry behave the same: so they all close at the same time, the number of industries directly affects the number of newspaper, ... and so on
19:53:16 <NGC3982> V453000: Yes, and that may be the basis of my problem here.
19:53:19 <frosch123> with random change, ottd controls the number of changes
19:53:21 <andythenorth> frosch123: agreed
19:53:26 <frosch123> and can balace it itself
19:53:30 <andythenorth> I only use monthly because I don't trust the game
19:53:37 <V453000> NGC3982: try nuts :) trains improve every 10 years at most
19:53:44 <V453000> and there is always a choice
19:53:48 <frosch123> monthly is nice for production changes
19:53:54 <frosch123> but it is crap for opening/closure
19:53:58 * NGC3982 should start making his own train NewGRFs.
19:54:14 <andythenorth> FIRS primaries appear to use the random change
19:54:17 <frosch123> s/production changes/small production changes/
19:54:22 <NGC3982> At least that's simple enough for Only-made-tutorial-GRF-NGC3982.
19:54:43 <V453000> prepare to spend an awful lot of time :P
19:54:45 <andythenorth> I haven't read all the code, but most closing in FIRS is delegated to 'let game sort it out'
19:55:09 <NGC3982> V453000: Well, you guys inspire me.
19:55:17 <NGC3982> I mean, look at andy.
19:55:31 <NGC3982> I could never combine coding with kids.
19:55:46 <V453000> yes that is incredible :)
19:55:47 <andythenorth> it's easy, I just neglect them
19:55:53 <andythenorth> and I don't write much code either
19:56:16 <V453000> andy already taught kids to code and has them as slaves
19:56:34 <NGC3982> andythenorth: Does the number of lines you write in code exceed the number of lines you write on IRC?
19:56:46 <NGC3982> V453000: Well, someone has to make the animations.
19:57:05 <andythenorth> frosch123: remove 03 and 04 as return values from cb35?
19:57:19 <andythenorth> and instead provide an advanced setting that affects frequency of random prod change?
19:57:51 <V453000> animations take 10x more time than coding on a train set for example
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19:58:10 <NGC3982> V453000: I know. I noticed that making a normal train is the simplest of coding.
19:58:28 <NGC3982> Since you really don't do anything else but ..replace values.
19:58:37 <andythenorth> make closure frequency player's decision, not newgrf authors (although newgrf could still return 03 / 04 etc to cb29)
19:58:52 <V453000> well you do add some features from time to time, but once you add it for one train it is just copypaste, find and replace, done
19:59:01 <andythenorth> make frequency option include 'none'
19:59:02 <andythenorth> stop handling player requests for 'please stop industries closing'
19:59:13 * NGC3982 still wants to make that TRON map.
19:59:13 <andythenorth> remove parameters from FIRS, ECS etc for closure handling
19:59:40 <frosch123> andythenorth: first fix default industries, might be easier :p
19:59:51 <andythenorth> possibly also eliminate smooth / non-smooth economy setting
20:00:28 <andythenorth> removing the smooth/not economy setting would erm...involve rewriting about 30% of industry_cmd.cpp
20:00:38 <andythenorth> frosch123: fix how?
20:02:39 <andythenorth> just move them to openttd.grf
20:02:50 <andythenorth> strip most of the legacy code from industry_cmd.cpp, creating some sanity there
20:03:15 <andythenorth> default to using them from openttd.grf if no other grf defines industry features (or such)
20:06:18 <Eddi|zuHause> that's already a problem, because one GRF cannot disable industries introduced by another GRF
20:06:42 <andythenorth> heh, there's always something :)
20:06:48 *** drac_boy has joined #openttd
20:07:00 * andythenorth wonders if removing the monthly prod change cb might be beneficial
20:07:00 <drac_boy> hrm, weird router :|
20:07:18 <andythenorth> I rely on that cb for setting multiple things iirc
20:10:09 <andythenorth> industry spec is like a pushmepullyou
20:10:50 <andythenorth> look at just one part, all seems sane
20:11:16 <andythenorth> try and solve it in total, brain explodes
20:11:43 * drac_boy hasn't had any problem reading the whole grf wiki before? :)
20:15:07 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: frosch123 ^ ?
20:17:12 <Eddi|zuHause> a start would be, if newgrf says "close" on monthly callback, the game takes that as a suggestion, instead of blindly following it?
20:18:59 <andythenorth> 'recommend' rather than 'require' close
20:19:23 <andythenorth> newgrf is crippled wrt deciding whole economy, that is proven.
20:19:31 <andythenorth> and making newgrf less crippled would cripple GS
20:21:23 <drac_boy> btw having tried it for a short time just to find out about something before I'm wondering..is the extra zoom-in level meant only for 32bpp grfs? because everything looks so pixelated badly :)
20:21:53 <andythenorth> 2x is ok, 4x not
20:23:09 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: it has no relation to 32bpp. but it can't magically create new graphics for all existing stuff
20:24:16 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: you can make pure 8bpp GRFs for extra zoom in, but nobody did that yet
20:25:15 <drac_boy> hm if a pixel is a fixed size how do you even make 8bpp gain more details without going into half pixels?
20:25:20 * drac_boy thinks me is a little confused
20:25:28 <andythenorth> you draw bigger sprites
20:27:19 <andythenorth> a FIRS game, with Dairies in 1870
20:27:20 <drac_boy> wouldn't that then look too big in older ottd/patch builds .. maybe it'll be better if I hadn't asked about that extra zoom in the first place -_-
20:28:52 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: you provide a different image for each zoom level
20:28:53 <Rubidium> drac_boy: I doubt those older builds will be able to recognise the file as a NewGRF
20:30:10 <Eddi|zuHause> 32bpp is not 3D/vector graphics, it's still pixels, just with more colours
20:31:13 <drac_boy> Rubidium hmm so I guess its sorta like a grf fork perhaps
20:31:47 <Rubidium> if Windows 8 is a fork of Windows 7, then yes
20:32:27 <drac_boy> heh I was thinking more like eg trainset_old8.grf vs trainset_new8.grf
20:32:38 <drac_boy> or something along that sort of naming
20:33:37 <Rubidium> why would you do that?
20:34:20 <drac_boy> anyway I guess the extra zoom-in could have one slight funny use ... giving someone that old low resolution dos appearance :p
20:35:23 <Rubidium> just run at 640x480 and you're almost there
20:36:07 <andythenorth> that's what I'm doing
20:36:17 <andythenorth> it's about same size as 2x zoom
20:36:33 <andythenorth> is there an irc-client inside the game?
20:36:43 <andythenorth> I keep having to leave full screen to talk :P
20:36:51 <drac_boy> andythenorth window it :p
20:36:54 <Eddi|zuHause> there's an ingame chat, and autopilot as a relay :)
20:37:12 <Eddi|zuHause> coop people used to do that
20:38:38 <andythenorth> imagine making this channel available in game by default to all players
20:40:36 <drac_boy> I'll rather not..especially when you don't want to mix player chatter with irc chat :)
20:41:17 <drac_boy> could you imagine reading 'you mind moving that bridge at berlon?' in here? :)
20:44:22 <andythenorth> let's see if I complain about rivers less
20:44:41 <andythenorth> docks are still unusably stupid with rivers
20:44:52 <andythenorth> don't make me excavate half the landscape to unload my ships
20:47:54 <drac_boy> NGC3982 I always only play with a few ecs vectors .. and never ever touch chemical/machinery :|
20:48:51 <drac_boy> NGC3982 and mm I never really liked parts of PBI .. one major problem was that the steel mill could not recognize when a map had too much coal but little iron ore otherwise
20:49:03 <drac_boy> meaning soon your coal trains eventually gets locked out
20:49:21 <andythenorth> ^^ simple river and canal docks
20:49:37 <NGC3982> It becomes really, really hard when you scale it up.
20:49:42 <NGC3982> But i guess that's a good thing.
20:49:44 <drac_boy> NGC3982 ECS's behaviour was a bit better.. it wouldn't explictly need the ore
20:49:50 <NGC3982> It's a real serious co-op venture.
20:50:06 <drac_boy> so you could do 300 tonnes of coal but only 160 tonnes of ore .. and it never blocks out
20:50:27 <drac_boy> of course sometimes I hate the ever-varying stockpile cap a little bit but meh :p
20:50:46 <drac_boy> NGC3982 co-op has nothing to do with lack of ore supplies on the map in first place? :)
20:51:38 <NGC3982> drac_boy: Sure it does. It's not like you can make a map 100% compatible with all it's industries.
20:52:04 <drac_boy> NGC3982 yeah but at least you could not explictly set an absolute 1-to-1 input ratio either? :)
20:52:19 <andythenorth> ^^ not simple, looks stupid. Costs 5,570; 1 tile tram station in this game costs 820. Too much disparity
20:52:38 <drac_boy> NGC3982 which of that reminds me I still haven't figured out yet how to make an industry treat input #2 as a boost to input #1
20:52:40 <andythenorth> oh, that's with FISH 2 resetting canal costs as well
20:52:44 <NGC3982> drac_boy: Not really. :p
20:53:45 <andythenorth> without the canal cost reset, that dock would cost 31,940
20:55:01 <drac_boy> anyway before I get distracted some more by NGC3982 I meant to ask .. I know theres version check and other things but was there anything that could let you load one blob of code for patch but a different blob for ottd? or is two seperate grfs the best way to go yet
20:55:28 <andythenorth> I can't build CHIPS stations for eye candy
20:55:32 <andythenorth> no trains available :P
20:55:42 <drac_boy> andythenorth you can
20:55:52 <drac_boy> just toggle that 'build even if no trains present' option
20:55:55 <drac_boy> unless its oddly been removed
20:56:20 * drac_boy forgot the exact name tho
20:56:22 <andythenorth> doesn't do what you think it does
20:56:30 <andythenorth> or there's another one somewhere
20:56:59 <drac_boy> andythenorth no? I've never had a problem using it to build stations even if theres nothing in the buy list to purchase
20:57:14 <andythenorth> maybe there are two settings?
20:57:23 <drac_boy> tell you what, let me check
20:58:02 <andythenorth> perhaps canrail sets railtypes with availability dates
20:59:42 <drac_boy> 'Disable infrastructure building when no suitable vehicles are available..' under Interface
20:59:51 <andythenorth> yeah, tried it :)
20:59:59 <andythenorth> probly a railtype shenanigan
21:01:38 <drac_boy> oh well, have fun anyway :)
21:02:09 <andythenorth> frosch123: how about industry closing in proportion to number of vehicles, or industries served on map or such?
21:02:18 <andythenorth> I want secondary industry closing on
21:02:20 <drac_boy> heh Rubidium the graphics are too smooth for dos :p
21:02:30 <andythenorth> but with an 1870 start, I only have small trams available
21:02:42 <andythenorth> most of my map will be wasteland if I turn on closing :P
21:02:49 <Rubidium> drac_boy: that's not true, the original DOS transport tycoon deluxe has the same graphics and resolution
21:03:03 <drac_boy> I'm guessing thats the network-broken build of ottd tho right?
21:04:00 <Rubidium> it's about 99% gimmick (+-1%)
21:05:02 <drac_boy> heh well if they ever get the network stack working in some way I might be able to split my time with more ottd multiplaying fun :)
21:05:41 <Rubidium> I'm not sure whether such a computer would be capable enough
21:06:02 <drac_boy> Rubidium it could actually
21:06:03 <Rubidium> mostly because the newer the (video) hardware, the more likely it doesn't work
21:06:43 <Eddi|zuHause> old computers have network cards too ;)
21:06:47 <drac_boy> thats kinda like saying basic vga doesn't even work on a modern card anymore even although thats exactly what the bios uses to display itself with?
21:07:11 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause yeah.. 8bit 10baseT network card anyone?
21:07:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i remember we tried networking in DOS and failed horribly
21:07:19 <Rubidium> drac_boy: very basic yes, the stuff in between... not really
21:07:39 <Rubidium> for example, most recent video cards don't have hardware accelerated 8 bits palette animation
21:08:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i once had CIV 1 crash on me horribly. but the palette animation still worked :)
21:09:16 <Rubidium> anyhow, if you're interested enough... feel free to add DOS network capabilities
21:09:57 <drac_boy> Rubidium I dunno..its not the kind of network stack I know about (nor windows' neither)
21:10:07 <Eddi|zuHause> we played MOO2 network multiplayer in dosbox
21:10:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Master Of Orion 2
21:11:06 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause I wouldn't have any problem playing ottd/dos over network neither (the emulator has full serial and ethernet passthrough's) ... but as it is I can't see any point installing non-multiplayer ottd when I already have the patch. to our own :P
21:11:25 <drac_boy> I think I've seen some artworks for orion
21:14:05 <Eddi|zuHause> too bad they screwed up MOO3
21:14:26 <Eddi|zuHause> that was one of my biggest disappointments in gaming history
21:15:27 <drac_boy> oh btw is there any explaination of the newobject thing anywhere?
21:15:41 * drac_boy only could find the grfspec things but thats not so helpful
21:16:04 <Eddi|zuHause> there's plenty of stuff in the forum
21:20:29 <Yexo> drac_boy: what kind of explanation are you looking for?
21:25:57 <drac_boy> yexo mm just like more beyond just how to code it .. but I guess maybe I'll just leave it blank on the project table
21:27:28 <Yexo> drac_boy: Like how to use it? Just like any other NewGRF. What you can do with it? Use your imagination.
21:40:46 <NGC3982> isnt the 1.2.1 version of OpenTTD playable in OSX directly by download?
21:41:50 <NGC3982> Mac OS X 10.3.9-10.5 (universal build)
21:42:01 <NGC3982> Doesn't that come with a graphical set?
21:42:55 <glx> but I think it should propose to download it on first start
21:43:12 <glx> (unless it's still not implemented in OSX version)
21:43:16 <Yexo> was that ever implemented for osx?
21:44:08 <frosch123> i am quite sure it is not
21:45:54 <__ln__> i have a question but nevermind, i cannot phrase it politely.
21:46:01 <drac_boy> guess that works then yexo
21:46:37 * drac_boy actually would be interested in a particular japan copy of TT just for a bit of giggles tbh
21:47:58 <Eddi|zuHause> what would be the point?
21:48:57 <drac_boy> playing some basic maps for short times and the other part being not needing to run it in emulator on the contrast
21:48:58 <frosch123> i assume switching ottd to japanese is not the point
21:49:16 <drac_boy> frosch123 mm no its not
21:49:26 <drac_boy> let me see if theres even any screenshot of it online one moment..
21:49:40 <frosch123> oh, is it that 3d version on some console?
21:50:04 <__ln__> what's the platform-specific part of the downloader thing?
21:50:07 <frosch123> i think i saw something like that
21:50:29 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: the gui to display it?
21:52:23 <frosch123> __ln__: remove the !defined(__APPLE__) part from bootstrap_gui
21:56:44 <__ln__> so freetype is the problem, or what? (i don't have my apple here right now, just reading the code)
21:59:28 <frosch123> quite possible that automatic font detection was never implemented for osx either
22:00:10 <__ln__> and anyway, what's the point of making everyone download the graphics, instead of shipping at least something with the application?
22:05:04 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: traffic for updates
22:05:48 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: between 1.2.0 and 1.2.1, or 1.2.2rc1 and 1.2.2, probably nothing changed in OpenGFX, so no point in downloading it again
22:06:30 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: plus you are not forced to download anything if you already have the original graphics
22:06:57 <__ln__> what would Stallman say?
22:07:18 <Eddi|zuHause> how would i know? i never met the guy...
22:10:11 <__ln__> i have another question, though i think i'm going to regret it
22:11:10 <__ln__> does the downloader actually need a gui? can't it just download the stuff it needs silently?
22:14:12 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it must ask the player to download something. it cannot do it silently (unless you introduce a parameter or something)
22:15:09 <__ln__> think about the children!
22:15:15 <drac_boy> heh such a pointless debate
22:16:16 * drac_boy wonders whats with V453000's idea of not talking for two hours then suddenly doing so
22:16:25 <__ln__> 90% of modern software downloads something without asking nor telling the user.
22:16:33 <TrueBrain> which we call spyware
22:16:45 <TrueBrain> these are BAD software
22:16:58 <drac_boy> truebrain or the % of people that just blindly click 'next' without ever noticing the pre-checked checkbox for toolbar addons :)
22:17:20 <TrueBrain> drac_boy: ugh, I hate that software
22:17:27 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: all "sane" programs ask this during installation, whether "autoupdate" and similar should be enabled
22:17:39 <drac_boy> TrueBrain just uncheck the box .. problem solved .. but mm yeah go figure either way
22:17:51 <TrueBrain> drac_boy: requires reading ... which I dislike :P
22:17:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i never understood the point of "toolbars"
22:17:59 <drac_boy> TrueBrain then don't use a computer :)
22:18:08 <TrueBrain> drac_boy: sorry, I can't read you, you are breaking up
22:18:14 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: money
22:18:17 <drac_boy> TrueBrain nope, its you
22:18:32 <glx> silly you have to check the "I agree..." but ads stuff is prechecked
22:18:35 <V453000> isnt there missing the feature "download all" for one of the reasons to know exactly what you are downloading and read the damn list at least? :)
22:19:10 <TrueBrain> ugh, too many people hit select all and download it all
22:19:23 <TrueBrain> its like killing the server or something :P
22:19:39 <TrueBrain> I cannot blame people for doing so ... it is not like there is some kind of real rating to the files
22:19:43 <TrueBrain> so ... all sounds better than none
22:20:07 <Eddi|zuHause> did we ever agree on a rating method?
22:20:19 <TrueBrain> not something that seems practical
22:20:30 <TrueBrain> but, in all fairness, the current method is one of the worst of the posibilities :P
22:21:01 <Eddi|zuHause> it'd have to be something that can be done from within the game
22:21:05 <TrueBrain> I still think that presets, and rating of those, are the only realistic way
22:21:11 <drac_boy> don't forget something with some sort of control against mass rating
22:21:25 <TrueBrain> optimal, we would just snoop all clients to see what they run
22:21:30 <TrueBrain> and show what is most commonly used
22:21:37 <TrueBrain> but I so fucking hate snooping software
22:21:41 <TrueBrain> (and I am talking to you Minecraft)
22:21:44 <drac_boy> you'll have to pass that through the privacy acts actually truebrain
22:21:49 <TrueBrain> opt-in ffs, not opt-out :(
22:21:54 <TrueBrain> drac_boy: no, you don't
22:21:57 <TrueBrain> that is just bullshit, sorry :)
22:22:08 <drac_boy> TrueBrain good luck not getting charged then .. because it IS privacy
22:22:19 <TrueBrain> that is why so many software does it .....
22:22:46 <drac_boy> truebrain name me one software that actually checks your hd
22:22:55 <TrueBrain> your HD? wtf are you talking about now?
22:24:34 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: the main problem always remains, I guess, that one might like one set a lot, and the other another ... which rates better? What is fair? So hard to get something real for it ...
22:24:45 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: this origin thingie had that in its license "we may search your HDD for illegal copies of games"
22:25:15 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: google had that they could store screenshots of the pages you visited for optimizations :P
22:26:08 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause well if its coded to only specifically look for its own app and not do a broad search ... and the user knew of it .. I wouldn't complain :)
22:26:21 <TrueBrain> you should complain
22:26:36 <TrueBrain> ifI can't do what ever the fuck I want on my own machine ......
22:26:49 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: no, it specifically was meant to look for ALL games
22:27:02 <Eddi|zuHause> or at least all EA games
22:27:27 <Eddi|zuHause> which is like 50% of all games ever created
22:27:48 <TrueBrain> anyway, drac_boy, you still didn't explain how you got to 'checks your hd' from snooping user uses?
22:28:34 <drac_boy> truebrain .. you already mentioned it .. 'client...what they run'
22:29:00 <frosch123> TrueBrain: we could have an official jury for rating :p
22:29:11 <TrueBrain> you might want to apply such comments to an OpenTTD env, not a computer ......
22:29:12 <drac_boy> frosch123 sounds a lot better
22:29:19 <TrueBrain> frosch123: same issue :D
22:29:41 <TrueBrain> drac_boy: ofc, what I meant, is to keep track the grfs people use, which is very much unrelated to what runs on a computer ......
22:29:47 <TrueBrain> we want to know how people use OpenTTD, not their computer
22:29:52 <frosch123> depends on who it consists of :p
22:30:08 <TrueBrain> we track servers, but ..... our multiplayer uses is rather low :P
22:30:15 <drac_boy> truebrain...doesn't matter... its still on hd so that falls under private useage
22:30:27 <TrueBrain> that is bullshit, but sure :)
22:30:39 <TrueBrain> under that idea, multiplayer games are impossible
22:30:43 <drac_boy> tell that to EU court .. and it wouldn't be their first case
22:31:16 <TrueBrain> so ... if you send an email with an attachment to your friend, that is a violation of your privacy?
22:31:22 <TrueBrain> after all, you never told that your browser is allowed to read your HD?
22:31:32 <drac_boy> nope..you intentionally wanted to give the attachment so its no-issue
22:32:25 <TrueBrain> so now we talk about intentionally or not .. okay, that is interesting
22:33:06 <TrueBrain> so, if you play Assassins Creed
22:33:15 <TrueBrain> savegames are stored 'in the cloud'
22:33:19 <TrueBrain> that is a violation of your privacy?
22:33:28 <TrueBrain> I never wanted it to do that
22:33:32 <TrueBrain> I never got told it would do that
22:33:36 <drac_boy> only if the savegame had any personal info in it
22:33:45 <TrueBrain> so newgrfs have personal info in it?
22:33:51 <V453000> man my network is my personal info
22:34:00 <Eddi|zuHause> of course the savegame has personal info in it. i made it personally.
22:34:15 <TrueBrain> it tells a lot about you, a savegame
22:34:23 <drac_boy> V453000 btw whats the meaning of the number 453000 anyway?
22:34:41 <V453000> it is a rewriting of my name?
22:35:05 <V453000> Vasek is my non-formal name .. transcribe it into numbers and you got that shit
22:35:29 <V453000> im kind of surprised I havent seen it anywhere else yet
22:36:39 <V453000> everybody calls me V instead anyway :)
22:38:12 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: btw, much worse than NewGRFs it is with AIs
22:38:20 <TrueBrain> but I guess we can just use a classic rating there?
22:38:35 <TrueBrain> maybe ingame ask after 10 years of playing: how do you like this AI?
22:38:46 <V453000> are the AIs just historical or does anyone actually use them?
22:39:10 <TrueBrain> euh .. how long haven't you played OpenTTD? :)
22:39:10 <V453000> TrueBrain: most people alt tab constantly so that message would have to be there for long :D
22:39:19 <drac_boy> V453000 I never could understand their stupidity so I always play with zero ai tbh
22:39:32 <V453000> few seconds ... but I never used AIs except a few tries
22:39:34 <TrueBrain> V453000: with NoAI, people use it
22:39:35 <frosch123> TrueBrain: for ais we can use a quite objective rating: let them run for 10 years, and check whether they crash
22:39:39 <TrueBrain> we have no details on how much, ofc
22:39:41 <frosch123> that seems to filter half of them
22:39:55 <drac_boy> but once in a while I might not mind if a scenario has one or two ai companies preloaded .. because I know I'll drive them bankrupt in a while :p
22:39:58 <TrueBrain> you remind me of the tournament system I had :P
22:40:11 <drac_boy> although one of these default scenario is badly broken...
22:40:16 <glx> frosch123: add a save/load cycle too :)
22:40:21 <TrueBrain> would be a good way indeed, to just rate them tournament style :P
22:40:36 <drac_boy> british map .. and only a few months later the ai company wants to remove a network but it can't finish that due to stuck trains on one-way tracks
22:40:37 <frosch123> TrueBrain: except for the exceptions :p
22:40:41 <drac_boy> I forgot the name of that map tho
22:40:47 <frosch123> like those ais which are not meant to compete
22:40:56 <TrueBrain> so .. human rating :P
22:41:00 <frosch123> because they only build roads for the player, or only build eyecandy roadvehicels
22:41:13 <TrueBrain> dammit, I don't like those :P
22:41:33 <frosch123> there is a pre-gs ai which connects all cities, and the goes to sleep
22:41:42 <TrueBrain> GS, yeah, I expected nothing less
22:41:47 <TrueBrain> I did my best to make it hard, but ... :P
22:42:04 <frosch123> and there are at least two ais, who build roadvehicles with zero running cost (provided by a special grf) just to make roads looks busy
22:42:15 <frosch123> (no busses or trucks, but other cars)
22:42:26 <TrueBrain> so ...... AI rating is hard too
22:42:29 <V453000> if you use AIs for bankrupting them then they should be able to talk and rage
22:42:46 <frosch123> TrueBrain: anyway, an exact rating does not matter
22:42:55 <TrueBrain> no, but some kind of scaling would be nice
22:43:08 <frosch123> it would just be nice if constantly crashing ais, or broken scenarios could be flagged somehow
22:43:09 <NGC3982> "Scheie! Im going bancrupt!"
22:43:12 <TrueBrain> now all AIs are <N users pressed Select All since upload>
22:43:39 <TrueBrain> so ... when I manage to merge out the old VM, we can setup a test machine which does those tests
22:43:50 <TrueBrain> and mark AIs which crash
22:43:56 <TrueBrain> good start at least
22:44:24 <frosch123> i could hack ottd into something which checks scenarios for broken grf configs
22:44:41 <frosch123> i.e. check whether vehicles are available, and whether all cargos can be transported by something
22:44:58 <TrueBrain> haha, also a nice idea :)
22:46:54 <TrueBrain> doesnt really help with NewGRFs ofc
22:47:02 <TrueBrain> but at least it is nice to give some quality :P
22:47:55 <V453000> I still think that the best quality is TerraGenesis :) best scenario
22:48:11 <V453000> or hell even the original generator
22:48:12 <TrueBrain> I strongly disagree
22:48:14 <TrueBrain> let me tell you why
22:49:24 <V453000> that is some sort of heightmap I guess
22:49:50 <V453000> doesnt that make most of the map rather flat?
22:50:19 <V453000> like when you put on Very Smooth with variety distribution
22:50:24 <V453000> opposed to rough without it
22:50:28 *** Stimrol has joined #openttd
22:50:33 <TrueBrain> The Netherlands and Germany are flat
22:50:37 <TrueBrain> not much you can do about that :P
22:50:45 <V453000> well yeah but that is boring to play
22:50:52 <V453000> flat maps are all the same
22:50:55 <TrueBrain> then pick another country :P
22:51:07 <TrueBrain> just point being, I love those maps :D
22:51:11 <TrueBrain> make good scenarios :P
22:51:24 <V453000> I think the best scenario is random map :)
22:51:56 <TrueBrain> works poorly in OpenTTD
22:52:20 <V453000> it is nice to look at. :)
22:52:39 <TrueBrain> yeah; sadly a project that never can finish
22:52:53 <TrueBrain> there is no database with rivers and lakes that is "closed"
22:52:58 <TrueBrain> (lakes "leak" water :P)
22:53:27 <V453000> wait I thought that thing is generated
22:53:52 <V453000> why database with rivers/.. then
22:54:08 <TrueBrain> SRTM 90m information for height
22:54:17 <TrueBrain> then .. how was the database called
22:54:23 <TrueBrain> is put over it for country lines etc
22:54:32 <TrueBrain> but that doesn't give you rivers and lakes etc
22:54:41 <TrueBrain> ah, VMAP0 it is called btw
22:54:45 <TrueBrain> so VMAP0 also has lakes and rivers
22:54:49 <TrueBrain> which I render over it
22:54:52 <TrueBrain> but you need to fill them
22:54:55 <TrueBrain> as they only have borders
22:54:56 <V453000> uhm, so what do you actually generate when you have the original map? :D
22:55:00 <TrueBrain> and VMAP0 is of such poor quality ...
22:55:26 <V453000> well you have the country lines, and height lines?
22:55:39 <TrueBrain> well, the height is a matrix
22:55:46 <TrueBrain> country is a closed curve
22:56:18 <TrueBrain> so with SRTM alone you can do a lot of cool stuff, but without rivers and lakes, it looks silly :P
22:56:21 <V453000> guess I will just go have a game with original generator :P
22:57:01 <V453000> I use it mostly, but I love original generator too :)
23:02:21 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
23:02:21 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir
23:03:21 <TrueBrain> RAID-sync is not even 50% done ... it is been running for 24h :P
23:03:35 <TrueBrain> how do you mean, OpenTTD server is using lots of I/O on its own :D
23:05:27 *** mahmoud has joined #openttd
23:08:27 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, audiosurf gets boring very quickly if you have a song with a long quiet stretch :)
23:08:44 <TrueBrain> did you just really say that? :P
23:09:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean it wasn't actually silent, just more quiet than the rest of the song. and there was nothing happening for like a minute
23:10:11 <V453000> a good song must be always loud.
23:10:31 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but you realize that only afterwards :p
23:10:49 <TrueBrain> leason learnt I say :P
23:10:51 <drac_boy> just wondering but how do you get hosted websites like eg at users.tt-forums.net/danmack/index.html
23:11:50 <Eddi|zuHause> really challenging was a song that had slow and fast sequences... you just calmed down and the next fast sequence starts :)
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23:12:14 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: you have to sleep with orudge
23:12:25 <V453000> I only played that game when I was completely drunk so I cant really tell much :)
23:12:29 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: lol, perfect timeout of orudge :D
23:12:36 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause and why? :P
23:12:41 <TrueBrain> V453000: so you play it always?
23:14:03 *** Markk_ is now known as Markk
23:20:35 <drac_boy> well Eddi|zuHause he's back :p
23:21:00 <TrueBrain> you had to sleep with him, not he
23:21:02 <drac_boy> did you want to take the bed instead? :)
continue to next day ⏵
