IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-08-10
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07:23:34 <NGC3982> Bah, i had this dream where i was a Mars Rover..
07:24:00 <Supercheese> and you were astonished to find a cat on Mars, but then accidentally killed it? :P
07:24:14 <NGC3982> I was actually having some sort of Wall-e moment
07:26:28 <Supercheese> (Curiosity... cats... :P)
07:29:55 <Phazorx> NGC3982: were you getting service packs for 2 days in that dream?
07:31:06 <Eddi|zuHause> 's the bandwidths to mars these days?
07:31:58 <Phazorx> 2Mbit peak after they upgrade MRO
07:32:13 <Phazorx> direct link from rover is <80k
07:32:27 <Phazorx> and not sure about uplink speeds
07:35:03 <NGC3982> The difference in top and bottom speed in perihelion is 2 > 6Mb/s to the MRO
07:35:36 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: The MRO is the satellite that orbits mars to aid the communications with the rover.
07:35:45 <NGC3982> It also has some nifty cameras and instruments.
07:36:44 <NGC3982> For instance, it took the extremely elaborate step of photographing the parachute event when the rover landed
07:36:47 <Eddi|zuHause> is the manned mars mission in 2018-ish still planned?
07:37:02 <NGC3982> Note that the speed inwitch the camera takes this picture is locally relativt mach-2.
07:37:06 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Not really.
07:37:18 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: It's "on paper". But that doesn't really say anything.
07:37:32 <NGC3982> My guesses are that we wont have humans on mars until >2050.
07:37:50 <Phazorx> i hope humans will last on earth till 2050
07:38:15 <NGC3982> Phazorx: We survived the nuke graze of the seventies and eighties, so i think we will manage.
07:40:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Phazorx: it's more likely that mankind will make a very slow decline over several hundred or thousand years
07:40:59 <Eddi|zuHause> instead of a "sudden death"
07:47:05 *** Ciprian has joined #openttd
07:48:34 <Ciprian> I've installed the ECS NewGRFs, but there are no means to trasnport for tourists, glass, sand and others
07:49:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Ciprian: you need a vehicle set that can transport them
07:49:24 <Ciprian> I've already started the game, though
07:49:32 <NGC3982> Ciprian: As Eddi said, and there is a separate NewGRF for that.
07:49:37 <Eddi|zuHause> you have to start a new game
07:50:47 <Ciprian> Do you know any vehicle set for the ECS?
07:51:28 <Eddi|zuHause> most of the ones on the content download support ECS
07:51:29 <NGC3982> Ciprian: In the online-content, you should be abled to find "ECS & FIRS Original Vehicle Set".
07:52:06 <NGC3982> Ciprian: That introduces no new vehicles, but makes the default one's accept the ECS or FIRS cargo.
07:52:32 <Eddi|zuHause> note that you need one set for each vehicle type (trains, road, ship, aircraft)
07:59:38 <Phazorx> are there ecs compatible aircrafts?
08:00:55 <Eddi|zuHause> why wouldn't there be?
08:01:18 <Eddi|zuHause> and it's "one aircraft" - "many aircraft"
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08:33:40 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Seriosly, that's your answer?
08:35:16 <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of answer do you want?
08:38:07 <NGC3982> Phazorx: You will have to excuse the blunt behaviour. Yes, there are a lot of refits available for aircraft vehicles. The 'ECS & FIRS Vehicle Set' (See online-content) makes all standard OpenTTD vehicles refitable to ECS or FIRS cargo. Although, note that all vehicles does not accept all ECS or FIRS cargo.
08:39:08 <NGC3982> Phazorx: I also think that NewGRF's like AV8 and similar automaticly handles ECS or FIRS refit settings.
08:39:21 <NGC3982> But i suggest you try that one out before you take that as truth. :P
08:39:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not like Phazorx found this game yesterday...
08:39:36 <NGC3982> Who cares. Don't be mean.
08:40:26 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure where i was "mean"...
08:50:02 <Phazorx> and yes, dont be mean!
08:50:42 <Phazorx> NGC3982: yeah, i know about ecs adapter, specifically about a variety of them for DBset, lv4, newships etc
08:50:54 <Phazorx> so abcence of ecs adapter is a sign of no support to me
08:52:02 <FLHerne> Phazorx: Might just be a sign that the developer doesn't play with ECS or care much about it? :P
08:52:50 <FLHerne> andythenorth hasn't made CHIPS work properly with OpenGFX yet for the same reason, that doesn't make either unsupported :P
09:08:41 *** GBerten2936 is now known as lugo
09:13:31 <lugo> oohhh! vaulter updated his patchpack!
09:14:27 * lugo bluntly requests a win32-binary :)
09:15:37 <lugo> IS, daylength, improved breakdowns.. this looks.....promising :)
09:31:06 <Eddi|zuHause> Phazorx: "ECS Adapter" is only needed for really old grfs
09:31:17 <__ln__> 11:39 < NGC3982> Who cares. Don't be mean. <-- a lot of people care, and Eddi was not being mean.
09:31:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Phazorx: meaning most newer GRFs have it out-of-the-box
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10:49:59 <TrueBrain> lugo: ask it to be compiled by the CF, always up-to-date binaries :P
10:50:47 <TrueBrain> (he just has to start using some kind of VCS; that will be the hard part :D)
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11:47:13 <peter1138> So, uh, is Windows Update not working for anyone else?
11:48:03 <peter1138> Do you use Windows?
11:53:15 <drush> however, windows update may loop in a circumstance where you localized your OS with vistalizator and you're trying to get a service pack for the new language
11:53:41 <peter1138> Vistalizator? What?
11:53:58 <drush> it's a software piece that localizes vista and 7
11:54:34 <peter1138> Ah, not it's not that. This is a fresh install.
11:54:48 <drac_boy> only one windows for occassional cd games but otherwise thats pretty much it (and yeah it doesn't have much of a net)
11:55:33 <__ln__> drac_boy: my 7 was already localized after installation.
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13:07:27 <kais58> when building on windows should I use the microsoft compiler or gcc?
13:08:41 <drush> kais58 I honestly wouldn't know which one would be better and how could I decide which one is
13:09:05 <drush> primarily because openttd doesn't have performance benchmarks :(
13:09:28 * drac_boy would had used gcc but thats me
13:11:50 <TrueBrain> what a silly answer is that, lolz
13:13:07 <TrueBrain> kais58: on windows, if you use gcc, you need a glue library (mingw, cygwin, ..). After that, it doesn't really matter .. MSVC can't make binaries for win9x, so it really depends :D
13:18:30 <drush> TrueBrain what is the purpose of win9x?
13:20:14 <TrueBrain> what is the purpose of life?
13:20:59 <drush> I cannot answer that question,
13:21:32 <drush> however, I do have reasons to leave 9x alone
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13:24:45 * NGC3982 has this computer at work that still runs Windows 98.
13:26:10 * drac_boy still uses 98se for the lone windows box due to cost anyhow
13:28:12 <TrueBrain> rsync: command not found
13:28:17 <TrueBrain> lolz; my default installs are too slim :D
13:28:19 * drush abandoned microsoft's ship for linux
13:28:50 <NGC3982> drac_boy: For the low cost of what? Windows98? ;D
13:29:21 <drac_boy> NGC3982 low cost of software budgetting
13:29:23 * NGC3982 enjoys Windows 7 a great deal.
13:29:42 <drac_boy> TrueBrain heh do you still have 'ls' directory command? :)
13:30:12 <TrueBrain> I am not sure if 'rsync' and 'ls' are on the same level there, but meh :P
13:34:36 <drac_boy> NGC3982 after all why spend another $600 on hardware+software just to do the same tasks at more or less same speed. but of course that may be a little prejuiced :p
13:34:52 <TrueBrain> drac_boy: 1 word: Raspberry PI :P
13:35:47 <TrueBrain> Achievement unlocked: mister obvious
13:36:08 <drac_boy> TrueBrain problem is the lack of video aside to other peripheral i/o
13:36:15 <drush> that is a budget-friendly computer
13:36:46 <TrueBrain> drac_boy: I think atm it is more an issue of getting one :P
13:37:15 <kais58> TrueBrain: not really, I have one and quite a few people I know do too
13:37:27 <TrueBrain> kais58: and this is evidence it is easy to get how? :)
13:37:37 <kais58> infact, taht's what I'm running irssi on right now :)
13:37:45 <drush> one of my friends who owns those asked me to recommend a DE for it, so I assume he had a way of outputing video
13:37:49 <TrueBrain> kais58: if I own a spaceship, does that mean it is easy to get for everyone? :P
13:38:19 <TrueBrain> kais58: you started :P
13:38:39 <kais58> drush: they have HDMI and composite video out
13:38:41 <drac_boy> drush..yeah composite isn't really good for more than 320x240 which pretty much removes the plausibility of computer desktops
13:38:52 <drac_boy> so with no video its kinda out of the question
13:39:04 <drush> what about workstations?
13:39:13 <TrueBrain> DVI to VGA convertor :D (shitty stuff btw, don't do it :P)
13:39:48 <drac_boy> TrueBrain that only works for normal dvi ports which isn't present
13:39:57 <TrueBrain> drac_boy: no, you have active convertors
13:40:01 <TrueBrain> like HDMI to VGA too
13:40:04 <NGC3982> drac_boy: True. Using what you have without wasting resources is a basis of success.
13:40:08 <TrueBrain> they just ocnvert digital to analog signal
13:40:16 <TrueBrain> it is not a real issue to do that .. it just requires another device with power
13:40:18 <drush> TrueBrain those require additional power to do the conversion
13:40:27 <drush> because DVI-A to VGA is just rewiring
13:41:00 <kais58> or you just use a HDMI/DVI monitor...
13:41:10 <TrueBrain> kais58: I need to get one .... a 19" non-WD ...
13:41:17 <TrueBrain> any idea how hard those are to get these days?
13:41:22 <TrueBrain> all freaking monitors are WD :(
13:41:25 <drac_boy> NGC3982 not perfect anatomy but sometimes I think its like cars.. why scrap your rustfree 2001 car just because its more than one year old and isn't giving you any issues yet?
13:41:50 <TrueBrain> in LEDs it seems they are not produced or what-ever
13:41:55 <drush> I heard 16:9 is unhealthy for eyes
13:41:56 <TrueBrain> in LCD it is rather hard to find someone with a stock :P
13:42:07 <NGC3982> drac_boy: Exactly. Well, that is; If you own the car for practisicm (english?).
13:42:19 <drac_boy> NGC3982 I forgot the spelling but I know what you're saying
13:42:32 <TrueBrain> drac_boy: if it aint broken, don't fix it ;)
13:42:40 <drush> and I heard rts gamers hate WD for ruining concentration
13:42:43 <TrueBrain> the slogon of many many many many companies :D
13:42:49 <drac_boy> drush I've rather liked 4:3 or some 16:10 for the reason of that I deal with text more than video so the vertical space is needed
13:42:54 <NGC3982> TrueBrain: I needed that quote today.
13:43:16 <TrueBrain> drac_boy: 2 columns! :P
13:43:19 <TrueBrain> (now I am just silly)
13:43:26 <NGC3982> TrueBrain: I thought to myself "Hey, let's clean up the office cable mess" and with greatness and grace killed the internet connection for 66 people.
13:43:28 <drac_boy> I hate 1366x768 period .... its much less space than 1240x1024 anyway
13:43:38 <TrueBrain> NGC3982: been there, done that :P
13:43:44 <drac_boy> heh NGC3982 ops? :-s
13:44:10 <NGC3982> Well, yeah. It happends. Note that this is a company where im in charge of all the technical stuff, and im not a technician.
13:44:16 <TrueBrain> its one of the reason I am allowed in first when we are wiring in a DC or company
13:44:18 <kais58> drac_boy: that's what my laptop screen is, it's terribad
13:44:28 <TrueBrain> as my way of putting down wires is ...... clean and ordered :P
13:44:59 <drush> 720p is just copypaste silverscreen
13:47:50 <TrueBrain> hmm, so --delete-excluded doesn't do what I expected ... that is annoying
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14:05:20 <drac_boy> at least grfs themself more or less don't even care for the os you're on which is good :)
14:05:31 <peter1138> There are some benefits, like laptops don't cost £800 for something basic these days.
14:06:32 <TrueBrain> rsync -av -L --delete --delte-excluded --ignore-errors --include-from=../test.mirror --exclude\* . ../remote-test
14:08:13 <drac_boy> anyway going for now as usual
14:08:50 <TrueBrain> (minus all the typos :P)
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15:36:03 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 11 weeks, 6 days, 9 hours, 1 minute, and 26 seconds ago: <Pikka> hello Alberth
15:46:11 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: have you tried the @summon command?
15:46:27 <andythenorth> doesn't work for Australia
15:46:39 <TrueBrain> they should patch that
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17:28:38 * andythenorth thought it was quiet
17:28:42 <andythenorth> it's very boring
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17:37:45 <FLHerne> andythenorth: How do you get your pixel art to look right? :P
17:38:11 <andythenorth> and don't use too many shades in one place
17:38:53 <FLHerne> I've been trying to draw your asphalt tiles on slopes. I think I've got the lighting right(ish) now, but I can't get them looking 'smooth' enough :P
17:39:13 <FLHerne> They're sort of speckled, which doesn't look right :-(
17:41:13 <andythenorth> how many shades are you using?
17:44:16 <FLHerne> About 3 or so together. Four or five in total when there's a big difference in lighting.
17:45:15 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24463 /trunk/src/lang/korean.txt:
17:45:15 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:15 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: korean - 1 changes by telk5093
17:47:27 <andythenorth> FLHerne: use no more than 3
17:47:30 <andythenorth> a paste would help :P
17:47:37 <andythenorth> ask for forum comments
17:51:17 <FLHerne> Ah well. I'll think about it while camping :D
18:02:28 * andythenorth ponders playing the game
18:03:14 <andythenorth> I always regret it when I do
18:03:29 <andythenorth> it's just so pointless
18:03:44 <andythenorth> not that there should be a point to games
18:04:30 <andythenorth> I could start converting FIRS to python
18:04:36 <andythenorth> that would be...interesting
18:05:15 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: I've been working with pyramid app framework
18:05:29 <andythenorth> they claim it's unopinionated...they seem to really mean it
18:06:33 <andythenorth> I know you are sticking with Django ;)
18:07:00 <TrueBrain> wtf is unopinionated?
18:07:04 <TrueBrain> that it has no opinion?
18:07:09 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
18:07:09 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
18:08:03 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: you go on their irc channel and ask "is it ok to do xyz" and they're like "yeah, whatever works"
18:08:15 <andythenorth> most python web frameworks are...more opinionated :P
18:08:33 <TrueBrain> like I said, sounds horrible :)
18:08:37 <andythenorth> more like "blah is the one and only correct method"
18:08:41 <TrueBrain> sounds without direction :P
18:08:58 <TrueBrain> you should have at least a standard, or a goal, or a prefered way
18:09:04 <TrueBrain> whatever works comes to bite you in the ass
18:09:26 <andythenorth> but from 10 years of opinionated web frameworks, we've learnt that 'blah is the only correct way' changes every 2 years :P
18:09:49 <andythenorth> and 'blah' is often a bit insane and requires huge frameworks to just get a page online :P
18:09:51 <TrueBrain> I would never use "correct way", but "prefered way" is at least mandatory
18:09:54 <Alberth> trying to win a editor^H^H^H^H^H^Hframework war?
18:10:01 <TrueBrain> it is like accepting all OpenTTD patches I have seen in the world when we received them
18:10:10 <TrueBrain> it would make OpenTTD source code TOTALLY unreadable, and VERY unstable :P
18:10:24 <TrueBrain> Alberth: war? I think you misunderstand this conversation by miles :D
18:10:54 <TrueBrain> andythenorth is telling an unopinionated framework is nice to work with, and I have a hard time grasping that concept ;)
18:11:23 <andythenorth> you just write code and it appears in your browser
18:11:31 <Alberth> TrueBrain: yeah, that sounds weird indeed :)
18:11:49 <andythenorth> code that works without having to do loads of bureacracy :)
18:11:54 * TrueBrain is writing his own PHP framework ... many asked me why, and not took an existing ...
18:12:00 <TrueBrain> the answer is easy: if I write A, I want A to happen
18:12:15 <TrueBrain> in result, my 'modules' are often 10 lines, instead of 100 :P
18:12:34 <TrueBrain> well, it is already done, so no luck required anymore :P
18:12:40 <TrueBrain> PHP is still an horrible language btw :P
18:12:49 <andythenorth> that's what you needed the luck for ;)
18:13:03 <Alberth> yeah, I'd not use PHP
18:13:09 <TrueBrain> you cannot send $this to an anonymous function .. so ... $t = $this, and you send $t
18:13:12 <TrueBrain> exactly the same effect :P
18:13:31 <TrueBrain> its like .. seriously ....
18:13:48 <TrueBrain> static variables have NOTHING to do with static .. it is merely: these variables are copied on creation, that is all :P
18:13:49 <Alberth> it took me less than 2 days to find such messy cases
18:14:03 <TrueBrain> you can runtime change static variables
18:14:14 <TrueBrain> euh, hmm, that is not clear ...
18:14:23 <TrueBrain> class A extends class B, having a static variable C
18:14:25 <Alberth> that's fine, PHP isn't either :)
18:14:33 <TrueBrain> A::C == B::C .. but .. that link is not set .. you can break it .. runtie ...
18:15:03 <TrueBrain> so yeah, you are right, lets not talk about PHP :D
18:15:18 * andythenorth considers openttd some more
18:15:43 <RichyB> Did I just miss a really good PHP rant?
18:16:36 <TrueBrain> why do I always feel weird when I realise people read an IRC channel via a logger, and rush to the channel when they think they can join in ...
18:16:48 <TrueBrain> I might read the situation wrong ofc, but it happens more and more
18:16:52 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: I told him
18:17:08 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: pfew :P
18:17:08 <andythenorth> we have some small dislikes of PHP
18:17:20 <TrueBrain> everyone has .. and who hasn't, hasn't used it
18:17:26 <RichyB> TrueBrain: oh, please excuse me, I was just being a dick. :)
18:17:40 <andythenorth> I haven't used PHP, but I've hired people who can only use PHP :P
18:17:41 <TrueBrain> RichyB: troll was more the word I would like to use :P
18:17:51 <andythenorth> "Only PHP" is not a good sign
18:17:55 <andythenorth> nor is "only perl"
18:18:03 <TrueBrain> Perl is not a language
18:18:16 <TrueBrain> so who ever writes down at: Languages: Perl
18:18:20 <TrueBrain> should be hit with a stick :P
18:18:29 <RichyB> TrueBrain: trolling is an art form, I daren't sully its name by associating it with my own crap efforts. ;P
18:18:37 <andythenorth> there are probably 17 ways to hit them with a perl stick
18:18:48 <andythenorth> and depending who wrote it, it may make no sense to anyone ele
18:19:37 <andythenorth> this cheese has been on the floor
18:19:44 <RichyB> Most of the Perl programmers I've spoken with claim that Perl might not be a good programming language, but it does *contain*... several good programming languages. ;)
18:20:09 <TrueBrain> RichyB: I am not even debating if it is a good language or not
18:20:13 <TrueBrain> I am telling it is not a language at all :D
18:20:26 <RichyB> Eh. Where's the standard place these days to buy a copy of TTD online?
18:20:28 <andythenorth> RichyB: maybe I should point you to our list of unfinished ottd patches :P
18:20:38 <andythenorth> then you can spend your weekend with c++ :P
18:20:49 <TrueBrain> I once had such a good URL explaining why Perl is not a language .. where do I have it ...
18:21:38 <RichyB> Sorry, serious question. I have no idea where my Transport Tycoon disk went and I'm too impatient to wait for eBay or anything to ship me a new physical one.
18:21:54 <TrueBrain> TTD is not officially sold anymore
18:22:01 <TrueBrain> anyone who claims they do, are ripoffs (and in fact illegal)
18:22:14 <RichyB> So there does not exist any website online where I can put money in and get a non-warez copy of TTD? :(
18:22:20 <TrueBrain> "Kennedy's Lemma: If you can parse Perl, you can solve the Halting Problem. "
18:22:23 <andythenorth> play with opengfx ;)
18:22:34 <TrueBrain> download OpenTTD, download opengfx, done :)
18:23:17 <TrueBrain> stop talking about OpenTTD
18:24:15 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: have you solved your mirrors problem?
18:24:20 <andythenorth> that's kind of not OpenTTD
18:24:34 <TrueBrain> working on it .. slowly
18:24:38 <TrueBrain> rsync is not the best in documetation
18:24:53 <TrueBrain> "unless one of the transfer-statistic escapes is requested"
18:24:57 <TrueBrain> no fucking clue what they mean
18:25:06 <TrueBrain> no other references are made about it
18:25:17 <andythenorth> ask for your money back :)
18:26:20 <TrueBrain> I am trrying to get a list of files that are mirror'd at the end of rsync
18:26:23 <TrueBrain> instead of making a second call
18:27:55 <Alberth> the list of files at the local disk, or is that too simplistic?
18:28:06 <TrueBrain> it needs to be the remote
18:28:11 <TrueBrain> as I want to know which files ended up there
18:30:49 <Sacro> Erugh, why does openttd use a new font
18:32:37 <FLHerne> Does anyone know what the minimum useful specs are for the Android port?
18:32:45 <Sacro> FLHerne: you'll need Android
18:33:00 <FLHerne> I'm never quite sure how ARM perfomance compares to anything else :P
18:33:36 <drush> FLHerne it compares pretty good with x86, especially armv6
18:33:54 <drush> I have OpenTTD installed on my N95 (armv6+fpu) and it works smooth
18:34:12 <FLHerne> drush: Thanks. So a 1GHz one should be playable to some extent?
18:35:01 <drush> btw, FLHerne, how do you build for Android?
18:35:20 <TrueBrain> FLHerne: I think that the CPU wouldn't you biggest issue, performance wise
18:35:25 <TrueBrain> it of course depends how many trains you are going to build
18:35:30 <TrueBrain> and how many NewGRFs you are using
18:35:34 <FLHerne> Dunno. Haven't tried that. Been using PPC for my weird-processor fix :P
18:35:35 <drush> but any problems to aboid?
18:35:40 <TrueBrain> (I can kill a 3 GHz with enough NewGRFs :P)
18:35:57 <drush> because I am making a port for PS3 GameOS and it's not going very smooth
18:36:10 <Alberth> luclily the max number of newgrfs is quite finite :)
18:36:16 <FLHerne> TrueBrain: The 400MB RAM might be more of a limit, actually :P
18:36:26 <TrueBrain> it most likely will, depending on your resolution
18:36:27 <FLHerne> I know it'll be playable though :-)
18:36:29 <TrueBrain> and if you go 32bpp :P
18:36:38 <TrueBrain> if you look over how OpenTTD runs on a Raspberry PI
18:36:43 <TrueBrain> you see a lot of issues in certain video modes
18:36:54 <FLHerne> 32bpp is probably one to avoid...
18:36:59 <TrueBrain> to me it reads like SDL is fucking something up, but I cannot be sure till I have one myself :P
18:37:26 <TrueBrain> no (or very limited) NewGRFs, 8bpp, a 100 train limit or something, and you should be more than fine on any CPU :P
18:37:54 <RichyB> TTD is still completely single-threaded, right?
18:37:56 <TrueBrain> in regards to performance, an ARM is a so called RISC CPU .. things go a bit slower ;)
18:38:13 <RichyB> TrueBrain: cool! When did that change and how? :D
18:38:20 <TrueBrain> RichyB: rendering (on most platforms) and saving your game is threaded
18:38:27 <TrueBrain> terrain generation has been threaded for years now
18:38:33 <TrueBrain> I wrote that ... well .. years ago
18:38:42 <TrueBrain> AIs run in threads (but no parallel)
18:38:46 <drush> TrueBrain is terrain generation benchmarkable?
18:39:05 <TrueBrain> what is that kind of question?
18:39:15 <TrueBrain> is NN benchmarkable? Answer, in all cases: YES
18:39:27 <RichyB> TrueBrain: so if you have multiple AIs, each AI has its own thread, but there's no parallelism within each of the AIs?
18:39:35 <TrueBrain> RichyB: they run one by one
18:39:50 <andythenorth> only so many instructions per tick?
18:39:54 <TrueBrain> well, I believe we removed the threads by now
18:39:59 <TrueBrain> as they run in a VM :P
18:40:10 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: by now? Understatement of the week!
18:40:25 <RichyB> If I want to fix bugs, I should use trunk OpenTTD and stable OpenGFX, right?
18:40:30 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: VMs can be seen as threads too, tbh
18:40:34 <TrueBrain> makes it easier to think about ;)
18:40:37 <Rubidium> drush: you can benchmark everything. Whether it's reproducable and/or representative is something else
18:40:59 <TrueBrain> RichyB: but I think you were more wondering it map access is threaded, and that is a big NO
18:41:11 <Rubidium> in case with map generation: having it depend on 'randomness' basically means it's not reproducable
18:41:53 <TrueBrain> RichyB: "multithreaded" is such a hype, that many forget it doesn't mean anything really
18:42:01 <RichyB> TrueBrain: everything. I was expecting that OTTD would have the same behaviour as the old DOS versions: game tick, rendering and everything all in a single loop.
18:42:16 <TrueBrain> we left that years ago
18:42:31 <TrueBrain> but we don't have a lot of parallel code
18:42:37 <RichyB> ...? To me, "multithreaded" means "I called pthread_create(3) at least once and intend to call pthread_join(3) the same number of times."
18:42:55 <TrueBrain> RichyB: but what does that mean for an application?
18:43:08 <TrueBrain> with that, I can make ANY application multithreaded
18:43:22 <Rubidium> well, in short: one thread for audio playback, one for music, one for autosave, one for pushing graphics into the graphics card (if supported), one for DNS resolution, and one for the rest
18:43:27 <TrueBrain> just make a bootstrap which does a pthread_create, run the process, and do a pthread_join
18:43:30 <TrueBrain> doesn't make it threaded ;)
18:43:37 <RichyB> It meanst that the application definitely, and I mean *definitely* suffers from context-switching overhead. Not much else. ;)
18:43:52 <TrueBrain> well, if that is your definition, then you are absolutely right :)
18:44:08 <andythenorth> RichyB: if you want to fix bugs use trunk openttd and stable opengfx
18:44:13 <TrueBrain> although if it 'suffers' from it, you might want to remove the threading ;)
18:44:22 <andythenorth> patches go on fs or forums
18:44:52 <Rubidium> context switching isn't the main problem for not mass multithreading OpenTTD. Game state consistency is, i.e. locking/synchronisation and you need a load of that
18:45:01 <TrueBrain> RichyB: but even DOS has threading, in the form of Terminated Stay Resident applications ;)
18:45:14 <Rubidium> not to speak about multiplayer where every decision needs to be ran in the same order
18:46:06 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you can still parallel read-only actions, like for example pathfinding ;)
18:46:19 <TrueBrain> too bad we use caches ...
18:46:24 <RichyB> Okay, so the question isn't "does this use multiple threads" as "can I make this program go faster by adding more cores instead of faster cores?" :P
18:46:49 <TrueBrain> adding more cores does absolutely nothing for OpenTTD :P
18:46:55 <andythenorth> there are a lot of forum threads about why
18:46:56 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: except that there is an interdependency between trains etc
18:46:58 <TrueBrain> (given you already have 4+ :P)
18:47:06 <andythenorth> some threads more ranty than others :P
18:47:28 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: much smaller conflict zone; nevertheless, caching will always win
18:47:39 <drush> does anyone know what consequence would it have, if I forcibly removed -rdynamic flag from OTTD makefiles?
18:48:05 <andythenorth> RichyB: interesting questions in the code include "wtf is terragenesis actually doing?", because apparently the code their contains some lies
18:48:12 <andythenorth> depends how excited you are by perlin noise :P
18:48:21 <RichyB> andythenorth: well yeah, I wasn't really expecting the answer to the latter question to be "yes"; you can write games where it is, but you have to be careful about data dependencies in order to avoid needing much synchronisation.
18:48:45 <TrueBrain> because OpenTTD in its core has a single map structure
18:48:54 <TrueBrain> multithreading there is very unlikely to gain performance
18:49:35 <TrueBrain> years ago I made some drafts to split a map in 4 segments, each running in its own instance (with the idea of an MMO OpenTTD :P)
18:49:43 <TrueBrain> where only the borders synchronize
18:49:51 <TrueBrain> its doable, but A LOT of work :(
18:49:54 <andythenorth> your're probably near an OS X box :P
18:49:59 <RichyB> andythenorth: I have no Mac on which to test.
18:50:14 <andythenorth> I bet you can see one right now :P
18:50:18 <TrueBrain> that would allow OpenTTD to use more cores :P But meh ...
18:50:40 <Alberth> 2 segments would be a big gain already imho
18:50:44 <andythenorth> might make it interesting again
18:50:46 <TrueBrain> I have some pretty detailed plans for it andythenorth :P
18:51:11 <TrueBrain> the problem is that the client has to be rewritten basically, in how it works
18:51:12 <Alberth> MMO dune is easier probably :)
18:51:16 <TrueBrain> which ... amde me ... go ....... booooooo
18:51:24 <TrueBrain> Alberth: have plans for that too :D But gameplay is VERY hard
18:51:28 <RichyB> TrueBrain: ignoring OpenTTD for the moment because we know that that's not happening; data parallelism in a videogame looks like, for example, and RTS where you can update every unit's state in parallel because you do no data modifications in-place. Rather, you have two complete copies of the giant array of units, and you copy-and-modify from one into the other every frame.
18:51:29 <TrueBrain> mostly: what happens if you log off :P
18:51:50 <TrueBrain> RichyB: I am well aware how threading works, thank you very much ;)
18:52:17 <RichyB> Good. Point is, you have to plan for that well in advance. :P
18:52:37 <andythenorth> Chris Sawyer didn't :P
18:52:55 <andythenorth> maybe I should learn how GS works
18:53:03 <andythenorth> and write a 1-hour gamplay challenge
18:53:27 <andythenorth> same Squirrel as the AI library
18:53:49 <TrueBrain> Alberth: honestly, it was the whole idea of OpenDUNE, to transform it into an MMO :P It failed kinda hard ;)
18:54:00 <andythenorth> truebrain has an API definition for GS somewhere
18:54:25 <TrueBrain> a free cookie for me
18:54:34 <TrueBrain> which site is not following OPTA?
18:54:38 <andythenorth> I'll mail the cookie
18:54:39 <TrueBrain> any dutch gov site ... so ...
18:54:51 <TrueBrain> lets visit .... www.belastingdienst.nl , yippie, a cookie!
18:55:17 <TrueBrain> (for the non-dutchies: we have a new law which obligates site owners to opt-in any non-functional cookies
18:55:20 <andythenorth> don't please mention cookie law
18:55:28 <andythenorth> it's too painful, too expensive
18:55:31 <TrueBrain> our gov told last week that they don't have to obey that law, as they are not commercially)
18:55:43 <andythenorth> our gov decided unilaterally not to bother :P
18:55:54 <andythenorth> except for the bits that do
18:55:57 <TrueBrain> it is by far the worst law in months :P
18:56:06 <TrueBrain> ACTA was worse, but this is close following :P
18:56:08 <andythenorth> it's more fun when your customers are gov
18:56:42 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: tell me about it :P
18:56:45 <drush> I heard that in Poland, if a new law is unconstitutional,
18:56:53 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: really, I could :P
18:56:56 <andythenorth> months of work for me
18:57:06 <drush> then it will be in effect for 6 months and for that time, it has to be redrafted to suit to constitution
18:57:12 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I meant to say: I know, I am in the same ship :P
18:57:19 <andythenorth> then 1 day before the deadline, the ICO (enforcement agency) changed their interpretation of the law
18:57:25 <andythenorth> to allow implied consent
18:57:29 <andythenorth> much wasted time incurred
18:57:39 <andythenorth> probably good for consumers on balance
18:57:48 <andythenorth> they love all the popup cookie notifications
18:57:53 <andythenorth> it gives them something to read
18:57:54 <TrueBrain> OPTA, the organization giving the penalties for these kinds of laws, said they would also send one to gov sites ... I cannot wait for the results :P
18:57:58 <drush> which means pretty much that any unconstitutional law can work for 6 months with a constitution that disproves it
18:58:06 <TrueBrain> the popups are HORRIBLE ..... it annoys the user .....
18:58:14 <RichyB> On the one hand it's a total shit, OTOH just *removing* things that depend on cookies >90% of the time makes sites faster.
18:58:34 <andythenorth> and stops giving personal data to questionable people
18:58:35 <TrueBrain> RichyB: I do agree that the amount of cookies is insane
18:58:47 <TrueBrain> if I visit one site to order something, the next 4 days I see ads of that company on ALL the other sites
18:58:50 <TrueBrain> it is fucking annoying :P
18:58:57 <andythenorth> targeted ads are better
18:58:59 <TrueBrain> but if this is really the solution for that ....
18:59:00 <RichyB> It's not even the cookies themselves, it's the things that people do with them.
18:59:08 <Dr_Tan> I love hearing about adds on the internet
18:59:10 <TrueBrain> btw, ever removed ads in Facebook?
18:59:12 <Dr_Tan> I almost never see them
18:59:16 <TrueBrain> it is funny as fuck, as they ask why you removed them
18:59:29 <TrueBrain> I had such a good hour removing many of them with silly reasons
18:59:33 <RichyB> Take Google Analytics off everything and then suddenly websites load ~50ms faster, which you feel when it's *every* pageload.
18:59:34 <TrueBrain> I laughed my ass off :P
19:00:02 <TrueBrain> RichyB: fun fact, the dutch gov said: it is okay for us to use NedStat (like Google Ana), as we only use it to see how we can improve our website
19:00:09 <TrueBrain> not realising NedStat uses all that information to sell ads
19:00:32 <TrueBrain> which is horrible if you think about it: when you visit your local gov store on the web
19:00:38 <TrueBrain> some 3rd party (USA company!) knows about it
19:00:47 <TrueBrain> that can never be the intend of any gov site
19:01:09 <TrueBrain> but, as with every country, nobody up there has any real IT knowledge
19:01:31 <TrueBrain> who cares if you compromise the personal visiting behavoir of your whole country, you know how to improve your website!
19:01:47 <RichyB> Why does the "configure" script not support --prefix? :(
19:01:56 <drush> because using javascript and javascript only is a huge improvement
19:02:03 <TrueBrain> RichyB: how you define 'not support'?
19:02:20 <drush> TrueBrain that's exactly the issue I had
19:02:29 <RichyB> TrueBrain: ./configure --prefix=$HOME/builds/openttd # threw an error message at me.
19:02:33 <TrueBrain> --prefix-dir=dir specifies the prefix for all installed
19:02:55 <drush> TrueBrain I did --prefix-dir=$PS3DEV/portlibs/ppu
19:03:04 <TrueBrain> why the hell would it be prefix-dir? Lol
19:03:18 <drush> and I still get stuff like "-I/usr/local/SDL" in my makefiles
19:03:21 <TrueBrain> I guess it was done to be the same for all entries
19:04:19 <drush> well, anyhow, it doesn't work as intended
19:04:45 <TrueBrain> drush: that something doesn't work how you think it should work, doesn't make it wrong; prefix-dir does work as intended
19:04:59 <drush> then what is intended TrueBrain?
19:05:15 <TrueBrain> I suggest you try google for that
19:05:48 <drush> I thought that setting a prefix dir makes the compiler look for libs and include files in $PREFIX/lib and $PREFIX/include respectively
19:06:04 <TrueBrain> RichyB: that 'issue' dates back to 2006, so I guess nobody every thought about it :)
19:06:08 <drush> and not completely ignore a prefix directory as I have found out
19:06:12 <TrueBrain> drush: you thought wrong
19:06:52 <TrueBrain> the worst part, my copy/paste of our --help tells you why you are wrong
19:07:07 *** Progman has joined #openttd
19:07:31 <TrueBrain> RichyB: it also tells you how often we, devs, use it :P
19:08:37 <TrueBrain> RichyB: also mind we don't have a build-dir
19:08:43 <drush> --prefix-dir is for installing the compiled output
19:09:31 <TrueBrain> (as in, it is the directory you run ./configure from :P)
19:09:31 <drush> or else I'm wrong again
19:10:11 <Alberth> how did mmo dune fail, on what to do after leaving?
19:10:51 <TrueBrain> the problem is, wha thappens when you log off from it
19:11:08 <TrueBrain> I could wipe your base every time because I am in another TZ
19:11:36 <Alberth> the simplest would be to stop everything until everybody is online again
19:11:45 <andythenorth> FLHerne / others: any more feedback on FISH? I have to stick more ships in, trying to figure out the set balance
19:11:47 <TrueBrain> everyone? Or the parties involved?
19:11:48 <drush> TrueBrain that is not good
19:11:49 <Alberth> or at least save the point :)
19:12:13 <TrueBrain> we reviewed many solutions, and it is not really trivial .. never found a clean solution :(
19:12:25 <TrueBrain> either you can never attack eachother
19:12:31 <TrueBrain> or .... it becomes turn-based?
19:12:31 <RichyB> Some of the C&C games had massive multiplayer.
19:12:36 <Alberth> I can imagine itis not trivial
19:12:36 <drush> if I would run OTTD's configure from $PS3DEV/portlibs/ppu it would scatter config files all over the place
19:12:39 <RichyB> It was effectively turn-based.
19:12:41 <TrueBrain> RichyB: defined 'massive' ;)
19:12:46 <drush> the place from which it ran
19:13:14 <TrueBrain> well, maybe I should define what I would consider an MMO RTS
19:13:17 <TrueBrain> everyone on one map
19:13:27 <andythenorth> one click per turn
19:13:28 <TrueBrain> not, how some solve it, by allowing you to start matches in a shared world
19:13:31 <TrueBrain> that is cheating :P
19:13:37 <RichyB> You'd log in at any random time of day, click a contested territory. Game starts when at least one player from both factions joins in, and whoever wins that ordinary, finite-sized C&C game takes the territory for their side.
19:13:38 <Alberth> you'd expect that people playing together would be able to make an appointment to be at a computer at the same time
19:13:42 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I haven't run a ship-centric game since I started fiddling with FISH 2ish, sorry :P
19:13:52 <TrueBrain> RichyB: yeah, that is exactly what I don't mean ;) :D
19:14:01 <FLHerne> I tried to, but the autorefit broke and I gave up :-(
19:14:12 <FLHerne> (On everything, not just shps)
19:14:17 <TrueBrain> Alberth: I played a lot of EVE, which has similar problems, and it shows that is not really humanlly possible; but it is in the direction that a solution should be ..
19:14:27 <FLHerne> Stupid patched versions... :P
19:14:32 <RichyB> Well. It's like instanced dungeons, isn't it? It *is* clean, it's just not really a very good MMO.
19:14:35 <TrueBrain> Alberth: as that gives the issue: really large groups kill EVERYONE :P
19:14:47 <TrueBrain> RichyB: yeah, I don't consider those things MMOs ;)
19:14:49 <TrueBrain> it is a valid concept
19:15:00 <Alberth> TrueBrain: big money buys everything too
19:15:03 <TrueBrain> but not what I would consider MMO .. it is more ... a lounge you go into to find people to play against ;)
19:15:07 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Started autorefitting everything to totally random cargos :-(
19:15:22 <TrueBrain> RichyB: a good example of that is PlanetSide; it is a lovely game, no bad words about the game
19:15:35 <TrueBrain> it is very close to an MMO, but .. they are just seperate servers
19:15:56 <TrueBrain> single-shard, I guess I should add to MMO :P
19:16:11 <TrueBrain> Alberth: very true; but those things are solvable :)
19:16:37 <TrueBrain> RichyB: as if you allow those things, it indeed becomes easy :)
19:16:42 <RichyB> EVE is Single-Shard, No-instancing, Massively Multiplayer Online.
19:16:52 <TrueBrain> what I would love to build, is that you start building your base, which you can build on and on for weeks at end
19:16:58 <TrueBrain> till someone comes along and wipes you of the face of the earth
19:17:01 <RichyB> Also "SSNOMMO" almost sounds good as an acronym.
19:17:21 <RichyB> Perhaps you could swing it like DayZ?
19:17:47 * andythenorth is tempted to learn how to play DF
19:17:53 <RichyB> HUGE map, totally infeasible huge map, and you can protect your bases from attack while you're away by hoping that no one finds them.
19:18:13 <TrueBrain> and what id you do want to fight?
19:18:26 <andythenorth> kind of like how we play "not getting wiped out by aggressive alien species"?
19:18:45 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: we take that gamble every time we wake up :P
19:18:46 <RichyB> That's a separate problem! :)
19:18:52 <Alberth> TrueBrain: hmm, what if you allow the same number of units as the person you attack?
19:19:03 <TrueBrain> Alberth: instances?
19:19:07 <RichyB> You can find ways around that, like putting down resource nodes that are really sparse, so people are forced to meet at them.
19:19:09 <TrueBrain> I mean, how do you mean: same number of units?
19:19:27 <andythenorth> or broadcast lots radio signals
19:19:31 <andythenorth> so they find you :P
19:19:47 <Alberth> I attack you, you have 5 tanks, I have 100, but I can get only 5 near you
19:20:03 <andythenorth> send out probes with maps on, saying "we are here, this is our tech level"
19:20:06 <TrueBrain> and if I am offline you can't get close, or?
19:20:42 <Alberth> any problem with that>
19:20:45 <andythenorth> could you have an ever-expanding horizon whilst not there?
19:20:55 <RichyB> TrueBrain: so say there's players at a density of one every 20 square units, it takes an hour to explore a square unit in enough detail to find a base, and there's one resource node every 200 square units - and you can detect resource nodes from 400 units away. You'll get conflicts at the resource nodes and you'll wipe peoples' bases by following their harvesters.
19:20:57 <TrueBrain> Alberth: not really, just trying to get a feeling for what you mean ;)
19:21:29 <TrueBrain> I worked mostly on how to make a truely infinite map
19:21:32 <TrueBrain> which really never ever ends
19:21:36 <RichyB> Okay, actually relevant question: just built r24463, it asked me to download openGFX and I did
19:21:58 <RichyB> I now get the message "the currently used base graphics set is missing a number of sprites. Please update the base graphisc set".
19:22:03 <Alberth> I was solving the "big army sweeping over your few troops" problem :)
19:22:07 <andythenorth> relevant questions are off-topic :P
19:22:27 <RichyB> Annnnd I downloaded opengfx 0.4.4 using the in-game thingummy where the first prompt comes up.
19:22:32 <TrueBrain> RichyB: for HEAD you often need a non-stable OpenGFX to have all the stuff
19:22:48 <TrueBrain> for obvious reasons, an unstable release needs an unstable OpenGFX :P
19:23:00 <Alberth> RichyB: there are a few sprites missing , but nothing serious
19:23:01 <TrueBrain> Alberth: yeah, that is where I got stuck after that :)
19:23:07 <TrueBrain> I was just pointing out what those drafts are about :P
19:23:27 <Alberth> I clicked at it too, but did not read it yet :p
19:23:57 <TrueBrain> I opened the 'old' folders too, as I assume none of you will steal the idea and make milions, without giving me a few pennies :P
19:24:27 <Alberth> only the peopl e reading the logs will :)
19:24:29 <TrueBrain> you might like how unit design and skill progression works ;)
19:24:57 <RichyB> "Replaces passenger production in oil rigs by eels... Eels are transportable by hovercraft."
19:25:00 <TrueBrain> but I guess that might work Alberth ..
19:25:12 <NGC3982> Does anyone know if the FIRS Lime Quarry is supposed to be animated?
19:25:38 <TrueBrain> (the idea of battling, that is)
19:25:46 <TrueBrain> not sure how to keep that realistic, but that might be workable
19:26:10 <andythenorth> NGC3982: didn't you asks that already?
19:26:15 <TrueBrain> as, how are units kept out? A shield? Some energy balance?
19:26:18 <TrueBrain> hmm, that might just work :)
19:26:33 <TrueBrain> that in a given area there can only be an equal amount of energy
19:26:35 <andythenorth> NGC3982: which is the Lime Quarry?
19:26:48 <TrueBrain> so if there are 5 infantree, you cannot come with a huge tank
19:26:52 <TrueBrain> hmm, interesting ......
19:28:14 <Alberth> one problem might be that you kill one of my tanks, and I may bring in a new one
19:28:37 <TrueBrain> make the energy balance disapate over time
19:28:50 <TrueBrain> for example, the destroyed tank stays there, destroyed
19:28:54 <TrueBrain> and over the next .. week
19:30:20 <Alberth> another problem, you log off to rescue your units :p
19:30:43 <TrueBrain> many games have that as solution already, works rather well
19:30:50 <TrueBrain> if you are agressed, you can logoff, but your stuff remains on the field
19:30:57 <TrueBrain> for the next, say, 5 minutes
19:31:13 <TrueBrain> EVE does that wonderful; if I shoot at you, and you log off, you stay where you are, and I just kill you
19:31:19 <Alberth> ok, that's enough to slaughter your tanks :)
19:31:21 <TrueBrain> 'agression timer' ;)
19:35:33 *** drac_boy has joined #openttd
19:36:52 <drac_boy> any of you know of any swiss-english service online? I only know of one popular one for deutsch-english
19:37:56 <drac_boy> chrill..language? :)
19:38:08 <Chrill> try Google Translate, it is good
19:38:14 <Chrill> but its hardly OpenTTD :P
19:47:34 <Alberth> Chrill: we hardly speak of openttd here, as everybody already knows about it :p
19:47:56 * andythenorth complains about openttd here
19:47:58 <Chrill> you all speak of stuff way over my head :p
19:48:04 <andythenorth> but nobody pays attention to andythenorth
19:48:13 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: where's your buy menu patch?
19:48:17 <andythenorth> I could test it now
19:49:28 <drac_boy> chrill I do have one thing that is ottd....the 'chrill patch' :)
19:52:01 * andythenorth wonders how to make rivers 2 tiles wide between sea level and first height change
19:53:42 <andythenorth> so the original graphics had rivers in the 'choose temperate' icon for years
19:53:52 <andythenorth> but rivers didn't make it into game until last year :D
19:54:13 <andythenorth> also tropic is missing dead cows
19:54:58 <Alberth> temperate is missing living ones :)
19:54:58 <andythenorth> how big can new objects be?
19:55:05 <drac_boy> oh sorry chrill...kinda mixed up due to similar spelling
19:55:11 <andythenorth> Alberth: I have cows :P
19:55:15 <TrueBrain> Alberth: I hate you, now I want to write a server to test the idea :P
19:55:23 <andythenorth> can I do a 9x9 tile new object?
19:55:30 <andythenorth> thinking that tropic needs more mountains
19:55:37 <andythenorth> bigger mountains
19:55:40 <andythenorth> that can't be routed over
19:55:42 <TrueBrain> Alberth: don't be :P
19:55:56 <TrueBrain> well, I first need to fix the mirror stuff, so .. I will have to wait :)
19:56:11 <drac_boy> andythenorth there was little in africa or australia that didn't mind going straight over the mountain
19:57:16 <drush> I'm trying to make configure script look for libs and includes in another directory
19:57:39 <drush> we've already established that I can't do it with prefix
19:57:54 <drush> so I tried setting LDFLAGS
19:58:18 <drush> that still doesn't make the deal
20:00:13 <Alberth> what has a loader to do with libs and include paths?
20:02:54 <drac_boy> still finding that a little confusing.. chrill or chill ... meh!
20:03:56 <andythenorth> is 800x500 optimum resolution for ottd?
20:04:07 <drac_boy> andythenorth I would say yeah
20:04:45 <Alberth> depends on your screen size? (some dpi would be more useful perhaps)
20:05:22 <drac_boy> 1280x1024 and 1440x900 here atm
20:05:22 <andythenorth> this panel is fuzzy at 800x500, the fonts are blurred
20:05:30 <andythenorth> but the pixels look ok otherwise
20:05:37 <drac_boy> andythenorth don't use fullscreen mode? :p
20:05:38 <Alberth> buy an analogue monitor
20:05:54 <andythenorth> drac_boy I want the game to be lower rez
20:05:54 <Chrill> drac_boy: blame him, not me. I've carried this nickname on the forum since 2006 :P
20:06:08 <drac_boy> chrill heh heh ooook :)
20:06:09 <andythenorth> lower rez = easier to use the gui
20:06:43 <drac_boy> chrill seriously tho I really like some of the features in the chill patch that its a bit sad that only one server once in a while actually runs it :/ oh well :)
20:07:02 <andythenorth> someone needs to make a decent industry set
20:07:05 <andythenorth> I'm bored of PBI
20:07:10 <andythenorth> I'm bored of default industries
20:07:18 <drac_boy> andythenorth get on FIRS or ECS already
20:07:29 <andythenorth> ECS is too complicated
20:07:45 <drac_boy> andythenorth just don't download all of it..simple?
20:08:13 <drac_boy> I've never ever had the chemical or construction grfs at all anyway
20:09:00 <andythenorth> how can FIRS suck less?
20:09:19 <andythenorth> maybe I can make it simpler
20:09:30 <drac_boy> by more trains supporting it? otherwise I don't see anything needed to do with it
20:09:53 <drac_boy> then you're clearly not looking at the scenary :)
20:10:15 <Chrill> hey andythenorth, you did FISH right?
20:10:37 <Chrill> I love that there is such a well-developed set for such an underestimated type of transport
20:10:45 <Chrill> one of the very best sets overall ingame!
20:11:19 * drac_boy actually uses newship.grf myself...
20:11:24 <Chrill> unless Fish 2 is on bananas, no
20:12:22 <RichyB> I forgot how much fun this game is.
20:12:26 <RichyB> andythenorth: I blame you.
20:12:29 <andythenorth> that's your weekend gone :P
20:12:34 <andythenorth> coming in Monday? :P
20:12:47 <andythenorth> it's more fun when you patch it :P
20:14:19 <andythenorth> maybe I should adjust FIRS to have one obvious money maker
20:14:26 <andythenorth> currently there's no 'start here'
20:14:59 <RichyB> No obvious money-maker? Did you remove coal or something? :P
20:15:14 <andythenorth> there are more chains, more evenly balanced
20:15:29 <andythenorth> it imposes decision paralysis due to abundance of choice :P
20:15:55 <andythenorth> I should implement economies as a parameter option, each of which is weighted towards one chain
20:16:11 <andythenorth> but the CPP used to build the set is too complicated
20:16:26 <drac_boy> as long as you split it off from the normal FIRS or use a parameter mode :)
20:16:26 <andythenorth> and I haven't got around to doing a python / chameleon conversion yet :P
20:16:56 <Alberth> drac_boy: FIRS has economies planned for ages already :)
20:17:07 <andythenorth> but nobody capable of coding them :)
20:17:37 <drac_boy> alberth point was the 'one obvious' and 'abundance' which I kinda disagreed with
20:17:51 <andythenorth> where do you start then drac_boy ?
20:18:35 <drac_boy> andythenorth depends on the randomized map but pretty much a good chance its a 3+ stations mixed freight service whether theres any coach on tail or not
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20:19:07 <andythenorth> I think one answer to enjoying my game is "Stop using UKRS 2"
20:19:22 <andythenorth> hmm there's a FIRS compatible canset release, maybe I get that
20:19:26 <Alberth> I didn't even start :)
20:19:39 <andythenorth> pikka's sets are so well balanced
20:19:55 <drac_boy> its a bit hard to see but that indeed is one lone coach on rear
20:20:13 <drac_boy> europe had their own similar versions too
20:20:52 <drac_boy> not counting that RhB still more or less has 'mixed trains' in american sense ... the attachment of varying freights to passenger trains .. even the new Allegro as well
20:22:43 <andythenorth> needs a truck set :P
20:23:09 <Alberth> you know the weak points too wel :p
20:23:21 <andythenorth> it's rather obviously not done :D
20:24:19 <drac_boy> mostly lumber but probably some parcel goods too
20:24:28 <andythenorth> I am about to be annoyed by the industry generation algorithm
20:25:04 <drac_boy> andythenorth I always did thought the whole gamecreate randomizer in both patch and ottd needed a good overhaul but I don't know how much of that is actually doneable :/
20:25:41 <drac_boy> especially when it likes to dump a sawmill only few tiles away from the forest .. even although it rarely ever does that with the original industries stragnely
20:26:46 <andythenorth> FIRS shouldn't be doing it
20:26:50 <andythenorth> except when I tell it to
20:27:03 <andythenorth> it has code to enforce gaps between certain industry types
20:33:39 <andythenorth> FIRS is so stupid
20:33:47 <andythenorth> where do I take milk before 1892?
20:33:52 <andythenorth> there's no fricking destination
20:34:03 <drac_boy> just like real milk ... straight to town
20:34:11 <andythenorth> has anyone even play tested this grf?
20:34:16 <drac_boy> ironically railroad tycoon follows the same behaviour too
20:34:38 <andythenorth> so I just don't transport milk before 1892?
20:34:43 <andythenorth> and this is good because...?
20:35:17 <drac_boy> you do transpot it...just to towns instead
20:35:25 <andythenorth> no accepting industry
20:35:34 * andythenorth was all set to play a game with milk
20:36:00 <andythenorth> I never get much past map gen these days
20:36:04 <andythenorth> the game is too broken
20:36:33 <andythenorth> I think FIRS really needs a rethink
20:36:37 <FLHerne> andythenorth: 'Markets' should accept fruit+veg, milk, fish etc, with a low acceptance cap
20:36:43 <andythenorth> FIRS is so screwed
20:36:44 <drac_boy> how come I have no problem at all after countless maps?
20:37:00 <drac_boy> (then again its in patch with custom trains almost all the times tho...might be ottd has strange different behaviour)
20:37:09 <FLHerne> andythenorth: The general idea is sound, IMO - played loads of long games with it in different time periods
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20:37:30 <FLHerne> It needs some tweaking of specific industries though :P
20:37:32 <andythenorth> the general idea of 'make an industry grf' is sound
20:37:32 <drac_boy> FLHerne nice to see its not just me then. maybe would be fun if two of us play together? :)
20:37:37 <andythenorth> I should just rm it
20:37:49 <FLHerne> Oh, and cargodist for supplies really helps
20:37:55 <andythenorth> no wonder is has < 10% of the bananas downloads that ECS has
20:38:04 <andythenorth> ECS is way more popular
20:38:17 * FLHerne prefers FIRS to ECS, by miles
20:38:31 <drac_boy> FLHerne hmm I've never ever play cargodist at all...did the chill patch ever have it in or not?
20:38:32 <FLHerne> ECS is older and more mature :P
20:38:50 <FLHerne> drac_boy: Yes, but that's years behind trunk at the moment
20:39:25 <Chrill> andythenorth: im liiiking this, especially the concept of speed differences canal vs. river
20:39:30 <FLHerne> I'm using my own patchblob at the moment, but it's insanely unstable :P
20:39:44 <andythenorth> Chrill: good :) Thank frosch for the patch that enabled that
20:40:09 <andythenorth> Chrill: some graphics missing, you'll find several generations of ships look the same
20:40:16 <andythenorth> and some old ships using modern graphics
20:40:30 <andythenorth> you get auto-refit support now too
20:40:54 <Chrill> oh I was going to ask about auto-refit
20:41:02 * andythenorth drove away all his FIRS collaborators with moaning :P
20:41:05 <Chrill> also yes some ships look virtually the same, I cant figure out which ones are old or new :P
20:41:49 <RichyB> Levelled a town by accident, now I can't even build a bus stop in order to make them stop hating me.
20:41:54 <RichyB> Where's the "bribe" button gone anyway? ;D
20:42:13 <Alberth> find another town to level :p
20:42:17 <andythenorth> there's a build-tree-bulldoze-tree-build-tree exploit iirc
20:43:23 <andythenorth> fun for translators :P
20:43:32 <drac_boy> andythenorth you prefer people to not be able to drink processed milk at all?
20:43:32 <andythenorth> I'm going to normalise everything to 1870
20:43:51 <andythenorth> this varying introduction dates thing is one massive fail
20:44:05 <drush> are you guys talking about far away past?
20:44:19 <drac_boy> andythenorth its not, otherwise other games wouldn't had used it with no problem
20:44:27 <drush> I remember that one time I set the starting time to 1410
20:44:31 <andythenorth> other games != this game
20:44:36 <andythenorth> this game has problems
20:44:39 <drac_boy> andythenorth doesn't matter..its still the same industries
20:44:51 <andythenorth> ever seen an aluminium plant get built?
20:44:54 <andythenorth> or a fertiliser plant?
20:44:55 <RichyB> andythenorth: it's not really an exploit if it costs money though, surely? :)
20:45:21 <andythenorth> RichyB: there's a minor exploit somewhere in the difference between penalty for bulldoze, and reward for tree planting
20:45:28 <drush> andythenorth are you telling that this game while it allows to go to the past before TTD, should portray the world as it was then?
20:45:46 <andythenorth> drush: I dunno. What's the question?
20:46:06 <drush> andythenorth: you said you went to 1892, back then aluminium wasn't being processed
20:46:43 <drush> so would that mean that you want OTTD to not have alluminium by the time it entered industry
20:47:04 <drush> because that sorta makes sense, monorails didn't enter OTTD's world until y2k ingame
20:47:08 <drac_boy> drush basically whats the point of setting it to pre-1950 then if nothing is going to be right
20:47:23 <andythenorth> I don't follow these arguments :)
20:47:29 <andythenorth> what's the point / question?
20:47:41 <drush> ah nevermind, I can't make it more clear
20:48:00 <andythenorth> FIRS tries to provide accurate intro dates for industry types (adjusted in some cases for gameplay)
20:48:21 <drac_boy> andythenorth if its broken then set everything to 1950 and call it "frictious industries" then
20:48:31 <drac_boy> otherwise leave the years alone as they actually were
20:48:35 <andythenorth> or just introduce everything in 1870
20:48:42 <andythenorth> because I like to start games in 1870
20:49:18 <andythenorth> ok so I start my game in 1870
20:49:30 <andythenorth> FIRS doesn't introduce dairies until 1892
20:49:35 <andythenorth> but none will get built
20:49:49 <andythenorth> so I have no dairies in my game
20:50:04 <andythenorth> and I know this in advance, because I've played enough FIRS games to realise it
20:50:21 <andythenorth> so I see all the farms, and realise my map is pointless
20:50:26 <andythenorth> and I turn off the game
20:50:43 <andythenorth> FIRS is dumb and broken
20:50:54 <andythenorth> it's a big bag of disappointing fail
20:50:57 <andythenorth> with nice graphics
20:51:04 <andythenorth> that's why 10x as many people play ECS
20:51:11 <andythenorth> it's ugly as sin, but they like the gameplay
20:51:13 <drac_boy> you clearly can't think then
20:51:56 <andythenorth> like quite a few newgrf things, the "industry can't be built before certain date" is a misfeature
20:52:04 <andythenorth> the game doesn't really work with it
20:56:45 <FLHerne> andythenorth: You can't mess up the intro dates :-( . You justed fixed that for FISH
20:57:09 <andythenorth> vehicles are completely different
20:57:19 <andythenorth> industry type introduction dates are broken
20:57:32 <FLHerne> andythenorth: No. I don't want to look at plastics plants or whatever in 1870
20:57:45 <andythenorth> but you don't get to look at one in 1850 either
20:57:52 <FLHerne> If I want some later, I'll have enough money to fund them
20:58:07 <andythenorth> funding is broken
20:58:19 <FLHerne> That then fixes the AAARGH WHAT DO I SPEND ALL THIS MONEY ON problem :P
20:58:23 <andythenorth> the introduction dates also make game balance impossible
20:58:28 <FLHerne> andythenorth: How so?
20:58:38 <andythenorth> because the game tries to build a fixed number of industries per map
20:58:49 <andythenorth> so depending on what types are available, the mix can be very different
20:59:09 <andythenorth> so balancing them reasonably is impossible
20:59:23 <andythenorth> pre 1900 you can have an insane number of farms
20:59:33 <andythenorth> start later and you hardly get any farms on some maps
20:59:42 <andythenorth> it's a fricking mess
20:59:55 <andythenorth> I am so bored of trying to balance all this crap
20:59:56 <drac_boy> FLHerne the funny thing is even if I start in 1920 with custom trains&industries (earliest I can atm) I sometimes never really have much money 40 year later .. and some trains still carrying very old wagons with almost no value
21:00:13 <drac_boy> guess its all in the gameplay styles
21:00:13 <andythenorth> TTD doesn't have this problem
21:00:23 <andythenorth> TTD starts in 1950, problem solved
21:00:45 <FLHerne> andythenorth: The varying industry distributions are good :-)
21:01:04 <andythenorth> not when trying to release the set
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21:02:53 <andythenorth> FLHerne: take over maintaining FIRS then
21:02:57 <andythenorth> I'm sick of it tbh
21:03:08 <andythenorth> between the code base that I don't understand, and the problems I can't solve
21:03:29 <andythenorth> just fork the repo
21:03:48 <FLHerne> Not just yet :P Perhaps when I can get my simple objectgrf release-able it might be imaginable...
21:03:57 <andythenorth> FIRS is too big and too broken
21:04:01 <andythenorth> and too complicated
21:04:09 <andythenorth> and has a codebase that nobody has time to work on
21:04:10 <FLHerne> andythenorth: It's a nice set, but needs more complexity :P
21:04:22 <FLHerne> Complexity (for the user) is good :-)
21:04:31 <FLHerne> As I said, makes it more fun
21:05:01 <andythenorth> the only redeeming feature of FIRS is that it has nice graphics
21:05:03 * drac_boy would be too busy with my own cargo grf addendum to help FLHerne either way :-s
21:05:11 <andythenorth> somebody should take the FIRS graphics and make a decent set
21:05:16 <FLHerne> If people want 'simple', they can use the default ones, or OGFX, or part of ECS, or TaI (if it's ever done) or whatever :P
21:05:50 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I considered refiddling some of your graphics and making a FIRS addon :P
21:06:11 <FLHerne> Not till I get the objects done, anyway :P
21:06:12 <andythenorth> what would it do?
21:06:39 <NGC3982> andythenorth: No, that was the Iron Ore Mine.
21:08:45 <andythenorth> what was the iron ore mine?
21:09:16 <NGC3982> andythenorth: Last time, you reminded me of the full detail-option that made my FIRS Iron Ore Mines to not animate.
21:09:33 <andythenorth> what is the Lime Mine?
21:09:47 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Add a market, guest house (small hotel) , power station. Replace 'recyclables' with 'waste', can be burnt (with coal) in incinerators.
21:10:30 <andythenorth> most of those have been removed from FIRS
21:10:38 <FLHerne> Add Food Processing Plant again, takes metal, fish and livestock. Other stuff, I forgot :P
21:11:09 <andythenorth> NGC3982: that's a very big industry :o
21:11:12 <FLHerne> andythenorth: In that case, why did you remove them?
21:11:36 <andythenorth> market - same function as the general store, but spams the minimap list
21:11:42 <FLHerne> Also, waste should go to landfills of course :P
21:11:46 <andythenorth> guest house - not tried
21:11:51 <andythenorth> power station - pointless
21:12:24 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I moaned when you multiplied the cost of hotels by 30-odd times, remember? :P
21:12:26 <andythenorth> waste -> incinerators; might work. The old waste chain was insanely boring
21:12:40 <FLHerne> Incinerator produces chemicals :P
21:12:44 <drac_boy> FLHerne funny thing is I thought about town outputs other than mail ... and am still tempting to perhaps try figure out a no-sensivity low-value recycle cargo type
21:13:09 <drac_boy> might not do it tho..and beside trains comes first then the matching industry later so we'll have to see
21:13:13 <andythenorth> the old waste chain tried to collect from a lot of town sources
21:13:34 <andythenorth> collect from a dump, go to an incinerator could work
21:13:38 <drac_boy> the reason its only recycle alone is because well lets just say its sorta my 'a perfect yet reasonable world' kind of thinking .. there'll be almost no trash at all
21:13:57 <andythenorth> NGC3982: you want me to animate that industry?
21:14:34 <NGC3982> andythenorth: No, of course not.
21:14:49 <NGC3982> andythenorth: I was just wondering if there already was animation that i missed out on.
21:14:51 <FLHerne> Basically, add another acceptor for what's now recyclables
21:15:06 <andythenorth> NGC3982: I don't know :)
21:15:07 <FLHerne> I don't like cargos which can only go to one industry :P
21:15:27 <andythenorth> FLHerne: you see the big stacks on the recycling plant?
21:15:48 <andythenorth> or did I remove them?
21:16:19 <andythenorth> no they're still there
21:16:53 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Not sure. Haven't tried that so much. I tend to finish games at the present, so not much time to use that chain.
21:17:03 <andythenorth> I should introduce it in 1870
21:17:06 <andythenorth> then you'd see it :P
21:17:15 <FLHerne> Might be nice if you moved that forward a decade. Not 1870 though...
21:17:30 <andythenorth> anyway it's drawn as a recycling plant / incinerator
21:17:46 * drac_boy still has to think what to actually do for 2010-2050 yet
21:17:54 <drac_boy> but one thing at a time tho so guess we'll eventually see
21:18:01 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Split them then. More industry types?
21:18:20 <FLHerne> And why didn't you make the town industries town industries
21:18:37 <FLHerne> Sorry, add a ? there :P
21:18:52 <FLHerne> Actually, that still makes no sense :o
21:18:58 <andythenorth> not really no :P
21:19:23 * FLHerne thinks through the phrasing more carefully :P
21:20:21 * andythenorth is going to sleep any moment ;)
21:20:24 <FLHerne> Why didn't you make the grocers/hardwares/recycling etc town buildings, rather than industries? It would be neater :P
21:20:35 <andythenorth> because it doesn't work very well
21:20:40 <andythenorth> it conflicts with house sets
21:20:46 <andythenorth> it means that you can't fund them
21:21:05 <andythenorth> it means that they don't show up in the industry chain viewer
21:21:08 <andythenorth> nor on the minimap
21:21:12 <FLHerne> There are always many more than required anyway :P
21:21:31 <FLHerne> And as you pointed out, that map's cluttered already :P
21:21:40 <drac_boy> FLHerne theres one single town building in my list so far ... input mail:1/4 food:1/1 goods:1/1 .. output mail:1/4, recycle:1/4
21:21:44 <andythenorth> it means your station acceptance would flap
21:21:48 <andythenorth> as towns rebuild houses
21:21:53 <drac_boy> no passenger yeah .. no need to with being in middle of a town anyway
21:22:09 <FLHerne> Dunno about the set conflict - what happens then?
21:22:36 <andythenorth> nobody wanted to find out
21:22:48 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Acceptance not a problem. Cargodist and truck-route distribution :P
21:23:02 <drac_boy> FLHerne how often do you play with cargodist btw?
21:23:06 <andythenorth> how is disappearing destinations not a problem?
21:23:20 <andythenorth> co-op style players hate disappearing destinations
21:23:27 <andythenorth> it ruins the route optimisation
21:23:29 <FLHerne> drac_boy: Always. Depends how often I can get time to play OTTD :P
21:23:38 <andythenorth> FIRS is optimised for co-op style play
21:23:58 <drac_boy> FLHerne heh well I never ever tried it much before but I'm wondering...can you like drop off some cargo at one place and rest at second place .. or the mechanisms is still too weak for that?
21:24:05 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Circular truck routes, calling at many stations in a town. Cargo likely to be accepted somewhere :P
21:24:18 <andythenorth> doesn't work for co-op play
21:24:22 <FLHerne> drac_boy: You can. It's great for supplies :P
21:24:27 <andythenorth> i.e. massive route building
21:24:52 <FLHerne> andythenorth: No, you just add distribution networks at the end of your massive route
21:25:05 <FLHerne> I know, I'm a massive-route style player :P
21:25:07 <drac_boy> FLHerne hmm it might make my gameplay style more interesting when the grain is not all unloaded at the first interimidate station :)
21:25:07 <andythenorth> I don't play co-op style, so I don't know :P
21:25:41 <andythenorth> anyway, feel free to take FIRS graphics and start a new set
21:25:52 <FLHerne> Big train arrives. Transfers into a million trucks/ships/trams/whatever. Gets delivered :P
21:25:54 <drac_boy> FLHerne I'm going to guess you always run long solid single-cargo trains only or am I wrong?
21:26:10 <FLHerne> drac_boy: Autorefit fixes that one.
21:26:19 <drac_boy> FLHerne but is it a yes or no? :)
21:26:30 <FLHerne> Now I can run long solid lots-of-similar-cargos trains :-)
21:27:02 <andythenorth> poll: preferred start date?
21:27:05 <FLHerne> i.e. I now have an Iron Ore/Sand/Stone/Coal/Clay run :P
21:27:25 <drac_boy> FLHerne guess thats somewhat a no then ... second question: multiply parallel tracks with heavy amount of signals or not?
21:27:32 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Either 1880, 1920 or 1970, depending on available time.
21:27:37 <drac_boy> andythenorth 1920 as always for me but mm :)
21:27:56 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Preferred finish date: 2012 :P
21:28:04 <FLHerne> Normally a 1920 start
21:28:29 <drac_boy> so FLHerne how about my question above :p
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21:28:52 <FLHerne> drac_boy: Breakdowns off, so normally I get by with a quad-track line. Fast pax on the inners, freight on the outers. 4-is signal spacing
21:29:23 <FLHerne> That's the mains, I like single-track branches to ~60 person towns too :-)
21:29:37 <FLHerne> Again, Cargodist makes those much more practical
21:29:51 <drac_boy> FLHerne heh well ... the two of us could play a chill+cargodist map but I'm a bit doubtful about us being able to exactly share traffic due to very different track laying methods :)
21:30:09 <FLHerne> drac_boy: How do yours work? :-)
21:30:28 <FLHerne> I've got a lot of mine on my screenshot thread, actually :P
21:31:41 <drac_boy> FLHerne well to put it one way...take a paper map (or aka the overhead map dialog ingame I guess) .. and look close ... you'll see that theres just like copious thin doodles all over the place .. even over water or through the mountain
21:32:14 <drac_boy> I never exactly really have anything that can be defined as "high quality mainline" at times in some games after all
21:32:45 <FLHerne> drac_boy: Interesting. I normally like to go over/round hills, shortest possible bridges :P
21:33:52 <drac_boy> FLHerne well when the industries are up there or the land is rolling a lot that any idea of "low-grade route" would mean lots of blastings .... guess what? you'll find my line literally going straight up then ... don't have enough traffic to afford the tnt crews :)
21:34:57 <FLHerne> I literally built a line straight up the side of a mountain once, I get the idea :P
21:38:06 <FLHerne> Perhaps this should go to that private channel though? :P
21:38:24 <drac_boy> FLHerne mind you one time it was like the railroad's there south over there .. and theres like a string of mixed mountains/hills impending anything to the north edge of map ... so after a few years ... and having to finally bicker a tunnel through one section .. I was able to run a few freights north finally ...
21:38:51 <drac_boy> thing was .. it was an isolated electrified section too .. would had been too difficult to run through steam trains
21:40:15 <drac_boy> if it was real-life .. it would had been something like the 2-6-2 steam locomotive cutting off at the junction station for two heavy crocodiles to back onto the train and soon they're whining loudly doing 30km/h up the 11% grade
21:40:22 <drac_boy> you following FLHerne? :)
21:41:02 <FLHerne> Yeah. Would probably have stuck with steam though - see private chat :P
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21:55:37 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 2 hours, 51 minutes, and 43 seconds ago: <frosch123> footnote 1
21:55:48 <andythenorth> @seen Eddi|zuHause
21:55:48 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Eddi|zuHause was last seen in #openttd 12 hours, 24 minutes, and 29 seconds ago: <Eddi|zuHause> Phazorx: meaning most newer GRFs have it out-of-the-box
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