IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-08-06
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01:01:56 *** drac_boy has joined #openttd
01:04:56 <drac_boy> how're you cheesy? heh
01:05:16 <Supercheese> Scandalously cheesy
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05:36:50 <Supercheese> First image is tiny
05:37:26 <Supercheese> Here's the 256x256
05:37:57 <Supercheese> lots of dust on Mars
05:38:14 <__ln__> they should be cleaning it more often
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05:43:41 <Supercheese> Good thing there aren't any cats on mars
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05:58:07 <NGC3982> Curiosity just landed.
05:59:13 <telanus> Supercheese: So the Killer Cats of Mars is just a myth? :D
05:59:43 <NGC3982> I watched the stream on the bus. :/
06:35:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i hope your bus didn't touch down
06:39:27 <NGC3982> It got tangled in the winch wires.
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08:32:35 * peter1138 gives DorpsGek a bikkit
08:32:49 * planetmaker hugs TrueBrain "good boy, good boy. Have a cookie :-)"
08:33:04 <DorpsGek> I am a good boy ! ! ! ! See See See ! ! !
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08:34:53 <TrueBrain> okay, I cannot find a service that doesn't reply to my queries, so I guess that is all :)
08:35:07 <TrueBrain> only 1 VPS did not boot correctly, which I didn't expect it to :P
08:35:15 <TrueBrain> the rest survived the reboot flawless :D :D :)
08:35:27 <planetmaker> good job in setup, I say :-)
08:38:21 <TrueBrain> hmm ... as last thing, I thought, lets see if MySQL has any damage
08:40:00 <TrueBrain> some bugs never get solved in software I am afraid
08:41:53 <peter1138> Yeah, journalling wasn't the holy grail...
08:41:58 <TrueBrain> owh, now even the recovery tool crashes ...
08:42:00 <peter1138> Although I guess it helps a lot, heh.
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08:53:03 <TrueBrain> bascailly, the bananas_download table always crashes (its an ARCHIVE)
08:53:08 <TrueBrain> when MySQL is not nicely closed, it totally fucks up
08:53:14 <TrueBrain> the recovery tools are ..... sad
08:53:31 <TrueBrain> for example, the archive is now 10 GiB in size
08:56:20 <TrueBrain> really useful feedback atm, tnx :P
08:56:29 <LordAro> i guess that's related to the fact that the content download list is empty :L
08:56:56 <TrueBrain> LordAro: the MySQL is not running; depends how you define relation ;)
08:57:09 <Warod> TrueBrain: But one always has to twist the knife when it hurts most or it'll get ignored!
09:01:11 <Eddi|zuHause> a relation is a set of tuples :)
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09:08:14 <NGC3982> "A relation is a set of couples".
09:08:30 <NGC3982> A Feynman quote, if i recall.
09:11:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't learned this stuff in english, so this kind of wordplay usually eludes me...
09:13:54 <TrueBrain> right, the recovery tool segfaults, leaving the recovered table as useless as the original
09:13:59 <TrueBrain> random memory reads ftw
09:14:04 <TrueBrain> seriously, so lovely .... can I kill it?
09:25:01 <Warod> TrueBrain: If everything else fails, you might want to check if MariaDB has more useful recovery tools available.
09:25:21 <TrueBrain> we should never have used ARCHIVE table
09:25:25 <TrueBrain> it has so many bad reviews
09:26:40 <TrueBrain> okay, everything should be back on its feet
09:26:44 <TrueBrain> lemme know if there are any issues
09:26:51 <TrueBrain> I am unavailable for the next few hours, so MWHAHAHAHAHA :P
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12:48:39 <Eddi|zuHause> "ReallyDoDrawString" who the hell named this function? :p
12:49:46 <Eddi|zuHause> bwhah... the SETX handling scares me...
12:58:04 <glx> <Eddi|zuHause> "ReallyDoDrawString" who the hell named this function? :p <-- svn blame ;)
12:58:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i will be coding the "ignore setx" part of the purchase list task...
13:20:34 <LordAro> is wikipedia down for anyone else?
13:21:16 <Eddi|zuHause> who needs wikipedia anyway...
13:21:42 <Eddi|zuHause> "Our servers are currently experiencing a technical problem. This is probably temporary and should be fixed soon. Please try again in a few minutes."
13:22:40 <LordAro> the whole lot is down - wikimedia.org is down also
13:35:21 <TrueBrain> it wasn't me this time :P
13:48:50 <Ammler> TrueBrain: please fix the internet
13:58:17 <TrueBrain> I am sorry, it is fundementally broken :(
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14:21:52 <LordAro> hmmm... it's back, but it's still a bit broken...
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14:30:27 <andythenorth> FLHerne: no scaled buy menu sprites ;)
14:30:34 <andythenorth> very very wrong ;)
14:37:33 <Eddi|zuHause> "HEQS 1.1.0: invalid CB 23 result 0xCB4"
14:37:40 <Eddi|zuHause> when opening the tram menu
14:38:57 <andythenorth> thought that was solved :P
14:39:36 <andythenorth> it's buy menu text cb
14:40:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure if my HEQS is the newest
14:44:15 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Unbenannt,%201.%20Jan%201999_1.png <-- i doubt those truck sprite offsets wrong because of my patch...
14:45:19 <andythenorth> probably pre-existing
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14:55:18 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... so i have two options: make the road depot wider, or make the road purchase list narrower
15:00:23 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Quigley%20Co.,%202.%20Jan%201999.png <-- something fails here
15:00:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i suspect newgrf confusion
15:01:00 <Ammler> TrueBrain: thanks, internet seems to work again
15:01:48 <Eddi|zuHause> how do i output the vehicle name through a printf?
15:02:18 <Eddi|zuHause> what's wrong with that word?
15:06:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i sense sarcasm...
15:07:13 <NGC3982> I really, really love the poetry of German and Dutch
15:08:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i once read this article about an english comedy writer, who spent some time in germany, and totally fell on his face in the early days, because none of his jokes were funny when translated to german
15:09:10 <Eddi|zuHause> because they focused too much on english language features like grammar or vocabulary
15:09:22 <Eddi|zuHause> instead of things that are universally funny across languages
15:10:13 <NGC3982> I just love how the German and Dutch (do i spell linguistic definitions with a capital letter?) have such a ..panche.
15:10:37 <NGC3982> At least when compared to Swedish, wich is a bit similar but SO boring in comparison.
15:10:44 <Eddi|zuHause> in english, you capitalize things that are derived from names (persons or locations)
15:11:26 <Eddi|zuHause> which is actually "strange", because that means in english you sometimes capitalize things that are not capitalized in german
15:12:27 <NGC3982> == "umweltverschmutzung".
15:12:58 <Eddi|zuHause> how do you mean?
15:13:38 <NGC3982> The swedish word is made up by two definitions that makes a somewhat logical explanation to what the word means.
15:14:23 <Eddi|zuHause> need more context.
15:14:39 <NGC3982> The german word is fantasticly beautiful, and doesn't care if it's 30 letters long as long as it explains what on earth the person refers to.
15:15:14 <NGC3982> For me, as a Swede, german sounds like poetry with some sort of jaw handicap.
15:15:38 <Eddi|zuHause> there are way longer words than that :)
15:16:33 * NGC3982 named his business server 'Schadenfreude'
15:17:20 <NGC3982> "Rindfleischetikettierungsberwachungsaufgabenbertragungsgesetz"
15:17:36 <NGC3982> For Pete' sake! It's like William Blake fell into a dictionary.
15:18:21 <Eddi|zuHause> ok. law-german is a seriously special case :p
15:18:51 <Eddi|zuHause> PS: that is the "short form" of the law name :)
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15:21:37 <Super_Random> HOLY MUTHER TRUCKER
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15:41:17 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: other authors will disagree, but if I have to tweak sets to deal with adjusted buy menu, it's not the end of the world
15:41:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, but here it actually fails to widen the buy menu
15:41:48 <andythenorth> can't help with that right now
15:41:58 <andythenorth> although I could test your patch later this evening if that helps
15:45:33 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the latest version is here: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/resize_purchase_list.diff
15:46:02 <Eddi|zuHause> the only changes so far since the previous version are removal of outcommented lines, and reducing the lower limit from 60 to 32
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16:25:12 <NGC3982> "I can be reached on this e-mail most hours of the day. Though, for more acute inquiries, please refer to my private phone:"
16:25:18 <NGC3982> Does that sound correct?
16:25:31 <NGC3982> It's been a while since i made business mails in english.
16:34:04 <FLHerne> andythenorth: So what's wrong with scaled sprites (with consistent scaling for all ships)?
16:34:26 <FLHerne> Sorry for very late reply, was a bit distracted gaming :P
16:35:54 <NGC3982> "We are about to set up the first mystery calls, and i will make sure to contact you with questions, if any as such arise. Though, i see most of the information regarding the calls is already well defined in the attached documents."
16:35:58 <FLHerne> At in-game size, there's no way you'll get enough ship in-frame to be informative :P
16:37:36 <andythenorth> FLHerne: scaled buy menu sprites just isn't done
16:38:02 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: that sounds like a spam mail
16:38:09 <FLHerne> andythenorth: But why not? :P
16:38:33 <andythenorth> it's like asking "why isn't English actually French"
16:38:37 <FLHerne> Stupidly huge vehicles isn't done either, except in FISH :P
16:39:04 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: AV8 has oversized aircraft
16:39:12 <andythenorth> why is a scaled sprite more informative?
16:39:20 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Ah, the airships :P
16:39:27 <andythenorth> a scaled sprite is 100% a lie in one dimension
16:39:35 <andythenorth> and a lie isn't very informative
16:40:18 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Because looking at the first 1/3rd of a ship - the bit which often looks identical anyway - is totally uninformative
16:40:45 <andythenorth> this is a known issue
16:40:48 <FLHerne> At least with scaled ones, you can see how the ship's size compares to other FISH ships
16:41:02 <andythenorth> oh, scale them all consistently?
16:41:09 <andythenorth> rather than to fit the space?
16:42:39 <FLHerne> Cropping uninteresting bits out (as I suggested on the forum) would break that again though :P
16:42:56 <FLHerne> Perhaps that's a stupid idea...
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16:45:40 <andythenorth> stupid irc client crashed
16:47:07 <andythenorth> scaling sprites large enough to fit the largest ships
16:47:14 <andythenorth> leaves the smallest ships as blobs of pixels
16:48:01 <FLHerne> That's why I wanted to squash them horizontally by removing the uninteresting bits of hold :P
16:48:12 <FLHerne> That would then break the scaling again though :P
16:50:13 <FLHerne> Given the quite noticeable size jump (Tyskebuska - Island Trader) you could have two scales. That would also be confusing...
16:51:40 <FLHerne> You could squash the real sprites as well, which would reduce clipping... :P
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17:29:20 <andythenorth> buena serra Alberth
17:30:27 <andythenorth> Terkhen: any FISH 2 bugs found? :)
17:45:32 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24459 /trunk/src/lang/ (dutch.txt hungarian.txt korean.txt luxembourgish.txt):
17:45:32 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:32 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: dutch - 4 changes by Parody
17:45:32 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: hungarian - 4 changes by IPG
17:45:32 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: korean - 19 changes by telk5093
17:45:33 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 19 changes by Phreeze
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18:08:19 <Terkhen> I only ran some AI tests though
18:08:55 <andythenorth> anyone else got FISH 2 feedback?
18:09:08 * andythenorth has to figure out where to insert the ferries from WSF set
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18:22:18 <V453000> andythenorth: that isnt on bananas or is it?
18:22:29 <andythenorth> it's on the bundle server
18:22:59 <FLHerne> andythenorth: I've played with FISH 2 quite a bit, it seems to work :P
18:23:43 <andythenorth> FLHerne: useful :)
18:24:02 <FLHerne> Refitting to multiple cargos would be convenient though :P
18:24:42 <andythenorth> not a newgrf thing :P
18:27:16 <andythenorth> the smaller car ferry is about 1947-??
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18:34:00 <andythenorth> that one doesn't have an obvious replacement in current FISH :P
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18:44:02 <FLHerne> Do townsets count as 'safe'(ish) to add to a running game?
18:44:38 <andythenorth> they can do very odd things
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18:47:46 <frosch123> as long as they do not add cargos, housesets are fine to add
18:48:09 <andythenorth> some house sets will cause your cities to implode
18:48:24 <andythenorth> and your station acceptance might be screwed
18:48:49 <frosch123> then that's the fault of the house set :p
18:49:03 <FLHerne> UK Townset doesn't add cargoes, does it?
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19:15:10 <FLHerne> Trying to redraw andy's CHIPS groundtiles onto slopes :P
19:15:32 * FLHerne is rather useless at pixel art :-(
19:16:51 * drac_boy is atm trying to find two particular swizterland rail names with no luck yet :-|
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19:19:47 <drac_boy> 1. that circular viaduct and 2. at least one (and only I think) station that was laid out in a U shape which sorta looked model-ish if you think about it
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19:20:32 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a "circular" viaduct in the Bernina railway, i think
19:21:45 <drac_boy> mm that was it thanks a lot for the name
19:22:24 <drac_boy> guess your link's better :)
19:23:46 <drac_boy> well thats one less thing to find online
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19:28:10 <drac_boy> hi cheesy again :p heh
19:30:15 <frosch123> do americans really consider baking a cake as "cooking"
19:30:42 <frosch123> "the cake was cooked" is weird :p
19:31:02 <drac_boy> not me but I'm not american tho :)
19:31:22 <frosch123> could you care less? :p
19:33:24 <drac_boy> thats no tram .. thats an actual mainline train :)
19:33:42 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's a narrow gauge train...
19:34:08 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause mm thats true, I don't know if the standard gauge sbb even has any or it was always built outside of towns
19:34:58 <drac_boy> I do know that there is at least one amtrak/freight station in either florida or calfornia (forgot now) that had the station accessible from a long road running stretch that has always caused lot of fender benders
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19:44:24 <drac_boy> FLHerne I'll have to try get back into a bit of pixel drawing again one day anyhow ;)
19:53:10 <FLHerne> Weymouth Harbour line looks interesting on videos - I wish I could go back 20 years to see it :-(
19:53:30 <drac_boy> aha I think I know that railroad ... thats their biggest locomotive excluding the several 0-4-0+0-4-0 mallets they had .. some still carrying their old mechanical cable braking systems
19:53:46 <drac_boy> and btw did you know that one of their steam locomotive was actually only a few years old?
19:54:27 <Pinkbeast> I think arriving at Bonaduz in Switzerland and getting off the train, er, onto a railway line was quite alarming enough.
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19:56:10 <drac_boy> I still don't really know how these worked tbh, but apparently it did work well after all
19:56:25 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that's a different line.
19:56:45 <Eddi|zuHause> and i think i read they recently stopped using the mechanical brake
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19:57:12 <drac_boy> yeah they got airbrake on everything, the reofit is noticeable but at least it doesn't take away from their shape :)
19:57:22 <Pinkbeast> Coo, they built such odd-looking locomotives on the Continent
19:57:31 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: if you look carefully, you notice it's more narrow gauge (750m would place it in saxony, while 1m is in the Harz mountains)
19:58:39 * Pinkbeast was in the transport museum in Berlin reading about some German Pacific "noted for its clean lines", or "covered in sticky-out bits" as we say. :-)
19:58:45 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause I forgot which two it was but one of these got a bit 'shortened' due to the berlin wall. at least it still survived obviously
19:59:56 <Pinkbeast> Obviously this is mostly down to our teeny-tiny loading gauge but there you go.
20:00:29 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: neither of those is anywhere close to berlin
20:00:53 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause I know...point was the whole west/east thing affected a bit of the railroad's network
20:01:12 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: however, the Harz was part of the "inner german border"
20:01:30 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: as thus, the railway to the Brocken (highest mountain) was cut
20:01:34 <Pinkbeast> There was a lovely article in _Steam Railway
20:01:35 <drac_boy> thats for real .. no excuse to not say that a U shaped layout is not realistic :)
20:01:36 <Eddi|zuHause> as in not serviced
20:02:10 <Pinkbeast> _ about a locomotive crew who escaped the DDR by chugging up to one of the remaining railway border crossings and opening the regulator at the last station
20:02:27 <Pinkbeast> ... having used up all the air so the guard, who wasn't in on it, couldn't put the brake on
20:03:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't heard about that particular one
20:04:40 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast if that interests you then find some WWII stories...rail-based escapes were quite something. eg steam locomotive with so-so fuel heading to another station to get a new train but...twist is that the tender water was a bit lower on purpose as theres a few people sitting inside there clearly out of view
20:04:57 <Pinkbeast> If you're really interested I've probably still got that issue.
20:05:16 <Pinkbeast> drac: A hidden downside to tank locomotives. :-)
20:05:35 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast not just tank ... a larger tender could quite hold several :p
20:05:59 <drac_boy> but for tanks...maybe 1-2 if really needed
20:06:28 <Pinkbeast> I mean, from the point of view of the escapees - lot more room inside a big tender
20:07:13 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast mm either way a good way to delay reinforcements is to take any locomotive train or not .. and derail it on purpose on the busy line
20:07:29 <drac_boy> the french resistance did that..and that one famous movie showed at least one scene too
20:07:38 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: yes, french resistance used the "wait in the tender" thing a lot
20:07:44 <Pinkbeast> Eddi: from my minimal german that looks familiar
20:08:10 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause what you think of that swiss photo anyhow?
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20:11:07 <Eddi|zuHause2> why would i have a particular opinion about a photo?
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20:35:51 <Pinkbeast> I can never get over the "SBB CFF, for fuck's sake" on the side of those.
20:35:56 <Pinkbeast> (Yeah, I know really)
20:36:17 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: yes, those are former german engines which were bought by swiss railways
20:37:01 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause yeah not sure if thats a V200 or just something else similar to it tho
20:37:27 <drac_boy> ah... diesel-hydraulic on sbb ... wonder what the mechanics might have thought of it
20:37:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think this was a success :)
20:38:15 <Eddi|zuHause> german railways got rid of them for a reason :)
20:38:24 <Pinkbeast> Didn't the Swiss at one point have some mad steam shunters converted to use electrical power to heat the boiler?
20:38:41 <drac_boy> Pinkbeast that was due to lot of hydro power but some coal shortage during war
20:38:55 <drac_boy> they still retained coal firing mind you
20:42:49 <Pinkbeast> It's clever in a mad sort of way, I admire it.
20:43:36 <drac_boy> pinkbeast btw there is something you might like..give me a moment to find a good photo :p
20:56:56 * Pinkbeast is offline to mangle dinner in five minutes, be warned...
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21:03:02 <drac_boy> and nope its not you .. it really is ontario aka canada :)
21:03:48 <drac_boy> too bad the locomotives themself just couldn't last well in the canada winters .. replaced by alike-painted modified F7 units instead for another few years then finally even the coaches were gone as well
21:05:17 <Pinkbeast> That's quite elegant for North American railways, isn't it?
21:05:20 <drac_boy> and heres the F7am unit (I assume the rear is a cab-only "locomotive" probably) in toronto which was its southmost station (so the via train probably is heading for ottawa or montreal)
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21:07:03 <drac_boy> and thats a sweden diesel behind it for shunting purpose as well :)
21:07:28 <drac_boy> but for at least 2 years now they have not ran due to line issues etc etc
21:08:37 <drac_boy> pinkbeast it was more or less an isolated line (although one unused link still exist) so thats why they could retain their original couplers etc
21:14:52 <drac_boy> Acela doesn't really 'match' anyway :)
21:15:15 <drac_boy> and pinkbeast...yes..that *is* an ICE-1 for the latter
21:18:34 <Elukka> america hates passenger rail
21:18:47 <Elukka> they used to have a very comprehensive light rail network too
21:19:28 <Elukka> the burgeoning car industry killed it and implanted the idea that one must always use their own car in the american popular consciousness
21:19:33 <Elukka> mass transit is for poor people
21:19:34 <drac_boy> elukka heh 1971 was a bit of mess but what else could be really done when too many railroads wanted out of this big red expense?
21:19:54 <drac_boy> only a few smaller railroads still wanted to stick to their own passenger trains one way or another
21:20:26 <Elukka> well, suburban rail was already dead and buried by that time...
21:20:41 <drac_boy> elukka tell that to toronto :p
21:20:53 <Elukka> not because it wasn't profitable
21:21:10 <Elukka> but because GM & co literally bought out the light rail and tram companies and shut them down
21:21:36 <Elukka> they were convicted and fined $1000 for permanently sabotaging america's infrastructure
21:22:07 <Elukka> the chief architect of the plot was also fined $1 :D
21:22:42 <Eddi|zuHause> that's better than the banking crisis, where nobody was convicted of anything
21:23:14 <Elukka> you can thank GM for LA being a smoggy, gridlocked mess, among other things
21:23:30 <drac_boy> elukka its pretty much coming to a slowdown whether anyone likes it or not.. political movements wouldn't do anything for ever-dwindling oil sources no matter how hard they try :P
21:23:56 <drac_boy> and that bailout for the "big three" has always been questioned hard for a long time yet as well
21:26:19 <drac_boy> elukka what you think of the usual problem of most americans having a rather bad ego? :P
21:26:55 <Elukka> well, that depends on the particular american in question :P
21:27:11 <Elukka> they're not all terrible!
21:27:38 <drac_boy> elukka...how about the one that buys a fullsize suv that runs on gas .. and all they do is downtown driving with no passengers or anything?
21:28:54 <drac_boy> anyway that reminds me of something else tho...
21:29:04 <Eddi|zuHause> generalisations are always bad!
21:29:51 <Eddi|zuHause> (that is a generalisation, btw.)
21:30:06 <Supercheese> I've always wanted a car that runs on natural gas. I mean, it's piped to my house and everything, all I'd need is a compressor
21:30:15 <Supercheese> Figure it burns cleaner too
21:30:20 <drac_boy> I know germany and switzerland share borders but do anyone think its ever plausible to have some overnight train from denmark or poland end up at a switzerland border station?
21:30:34 <drac_boy> in theory that is..doesn't have to be a real example
21:30:52 <Eddi|zuHause> there's an overnight train from Berlin to Basel
21:31:59 <Elukka> i like electric cars on principle
21:32:04 <Elukka> just gotta work on the practicality a tad...
21:32:17 <Elukka> tesla's working on that
21:32:25 <Eddi|zuHause> electric cars are a dead end
21:32:34 <Elukka> they're going down from expensive sports cars to more normal cars as the technology develops
21:32:43 <Eddi|zuHause> there's not enough lithium in the world to put a battery in every car
21:32:51 <drac_boy> mm I was thinking more about like eg a dsb electric locomotive ending up within photo-sharing distance of a sbb locomotive
21:33:06 <Eddi|zuHause> and a battery dies after ~5 years
21:33:26 <drac_boy> but if it doesn't sound too plausible thats ok..it was just an afterthought :)
21:33:29 <Eddi|zuHause> so you need an extensive recycling infrastructure
21:33:48 <Elukka> i'm not sure that's an inherent limitation of the technology
21:33:54 <Elukka> better batteries are worked on all the time
21:34:05 <Eddi|zuHause> fuel cells would be interesting
21:34:27 <Elukka> supercheese: i've heard you can get kits to convert pretty much any car to burn natural gas
21:34:28 <Eddi|zuHause> (hydrogen-based combustion)
21:34:32 <Elukka> for... a couple thousand euros?
21:34:57 * Supercheese lives in the United States
21:35:05 <Eddi|zuHause> if you can figure out the distribution of hydrogen through a fuel station system
21:35:06 <Elukka> a couple thousand dollars probably, then :P
21:35:18 <Elukka> it pays itself back pretty fast if you happen to have a station that sells the stuff where you live
21:35:42 <glx> Elukka: doesn't work on diesel engine I think
21:35:45 <Eddi|zuHause> you can then create the hydrogen at the energy source, like near the offshore wind parks or in the norwegian mountains
21:35:51 <Elukka> i think BMW built cars that run on straight liquid hydrogen rather than fuel cells too
21:35:58 <Supercheese> Depending on the extractable energy available in natural gas vs. gasoline, it could be quite cheaper
21:36:09 <Supercheese> I haven't run the calculations, though
21:36:11 <Eddi|zuHause> without having to worry about distributing the short-lived electricity across europe
21:36:14 <Elukka> thorium reactors could generate hydrogen as a byproduct for essentially free...
21:36:22 <Eddi|zuHause> but instead the more long term hydrogen-based fuel
21:37:06 <Supercheese> Or even better, distill your own alcohol and run your car on that
21:37:22 <Supercheese> Problem is the government regulates the $#%& out of distillation
21:37:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: that doesn't sound particularly energy-efficient
21:38:11 <Supercheese> the Model A was a dual-fuel car, alcohol and gasoline
21:38:18 <Supercheese> Ford thought it was fine :)
21:38:28 <Elukka> hm. the tesla model s has a range of 426 kilometers and a battery guarantee of 8 years
21:38:32 <Elukka> not quite there yet, but they're getting better
21:38:54 <glx> and how long for a charge ?
21:38:56 <Supercheese> then Prohibition hit in the States, and alcohol as a fuel died rather fast
21:39:17 <Elukka> i vaguely recall something about some technology that would allow charging in a few minutes but i suspect that would require different battery technology
21:39:34 <Elukka> and the power grid couldn't take it, but a gas station could probably build something to deal with it
21:39:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: that's one of the main problems with electric cars
21:40:04 <Elukka> it's a solvable problem
21:40:14 <Eddi|zuHause> electricity is bad for one-time burst energy transfers
21:40:42 <Eddi|zuHause> you're better off refitting every (major) road with induction circuits
21:41:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and have the battery only for short distance travels
21:41:20 <Elukka> that sounds way more expensive and maintenance-intensive
21:42:17 <Elukka> the model s apparently has a charging mode where it fills up in a bit less than an hour
21:44:51 <glx> spaces in links is not a good idea
21:45:11 <drac_boy> mm what you mean? I don't see any space her
21:45:28 <TrueBrain> I almost kicked him for being a spambot :P It was that I somehow linked the name as being here earlier in time :P
21:45:58 <drac_boy> truebrain...there was a mugg here?
21:46:51 <TrueBrain> random numeric domain with an invalid URL (spaces are not valid in an URL, should be %20) .. so close :D
21:47:07 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: the railbusses (VT98, not the earlier VT95) were designed so they could pull regular wagons
21:47:31 <drac_boy> truebrain hm must be your client as its already %20 here
21:47:45 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause well theres a locomotive in the middle if you can notice its cab hump
21:47:46 <TrueBrain> drac_boy: mine, and glx', and everyone else in this channel, sure :)
21:47:54 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: no, it must be your client that is converting the %20 upon send
21:48:22 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause its only konversation straight from cd .. so theres no plugin or anything
21:49:06 <drac_boy> either way what was with vt98 vs vt95 anyway?
21:49:06 <Elukka> that is a pretty weird train
21:49:06 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: Konversation usually disables the %-expansion in urls
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21:50:03 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: VT95 is the first version of the (post-war) DB railcar, VT98 is a few years later with stronger motor and the possibility to couple with normal wagons
21:50:58 <drac_boy> ah, so the vt95 only had a small drawbar rather than full couplers?
21:52:02 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, something like that. the VT95 could only be coupled with a railcar-wagon (no steering wagon, so it had to run around at the end)
21:52:03 <drac_boy> I still think the non-red colour used on them looks a bit weird to me but what can I say tho :)
21:53:15 <drac_boy> hmm maybe it wasn't the vt98 ... might be thinking of a different railbus somewhere else that did not look so nice in newer colours
21:54:20 <Eddi|zuHause> there are some private railways that have different colours
21:54:30 <drac_boy> for that kind of plowing it must had been going at full throttle
21:54:36 <Eddi|zuHause> and some railcars were painted mint-green in later years
21:55:08 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if the oceanblue/beige livery was applied to railcars
21:55:42 <drac_boy> mm tbh I sometimes think certain diesel shunters looked better in red than that navy blue .. especially V100 for one
21:55:44 <Elukka> interestingly there are still V200 running under differnet companies
21:55:45 <drac_boy> but thats just my own view
21:55:48 <Elukka> some of them have godawful color schemes
21:55:54 <Elukka> like a mess of colors with a huge URL on the side
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21:56:28 <drac_boy> oh about passengers I do have something I've wondered about
21:56:37 <Elukka> this one is excellent though
21:57:00 <Elukka> just as good as the original red
21:57:04 <drac_boy> exactly what was with the name 'thunderbox' for these numerous 2-axle coaches?
21:57:39 <drac_boy> oh, really? hm had not thought you could get that noisy
21:59:33 <Eddi|zuHause> "Der Name beruht auf dem starken Dröhnen dieser Fahrzeuge aufgrund der nicht vorhandenen Dämmung"
22:00:24 <drac_boy> elukka well noise or not .. I sorta liked some of the older train makeups ... eg ET87 with 6+ thunderboxes on the mountain route .. or a V36 with one baggage and 2 or more thunderboxes on branchline
22:00:42 <Elukka> old german trains are the best trains
22:00:43 <drac_boy> I always thought the V36 was a bit unusual for passenger power but I guess whatever worked for them
22:01:00 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: you sure that wasn't an ET89?
22:01:48 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: V36 are military (WWII) engines that were repurposed after the war
22:01:54 <drac_boy> oh ... sorry yeah Eddi|zuHause ET89 ... I never can remember the right numberings sometimes
22:02:11 <drac_boy> ET87 must be that odd cabcar+loco+cabcar set then was it?
22:02:53 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause I always found the ET87 sorta weird yet interesting
22:03:30 <drac_boy> 2+1, 2+1, 1+2 axles arrangement
22:03:59 <drac_boy> of course I do wonder if they ever used extra coaches with the ET87 or not
22:04:05 <Eddi|zuHause> well, 2'1+B'1+1'2
22:04:47 <drac_boy> elukka...mm ... C tracks .. a bit too modern for me .. but heh .. how large's your collection/layout seriously? :)
22:04:47 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: i've seen a photo where it had an additional steering car, but i find it unlikely that it regularly had other coaches attached
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22:05:34 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: it was already fairly underpowered for the mountain-track it was used on
22:05:41 <Elukka> i need to find some motivation to work on it
22:05:41 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause mm sounds like it usually ran on its own then .. just like with the uk autorails .. it was always only autocoach+loco or autocoach+loco+autocoach .. very rare to have a intermidate coach in
22:05:52 <Elukka> i've been working on weathering the track a bit
22:06:25 <Elukka> not happy with the ballast yet though
22:06:30 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: during (touristical) peak-times, you could combine up to 3 3-part sets, though
22:06:36 <Elukka> but hey it's better than plain c track
22:06:49 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause mm makes sense, MU is MU after all
22:07:34 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause btw the ET89 interestingly enough only had 2 powered axles, not four .. yet it didn't have a problem with hauling several many coaches at times if needed
22:08:01 <drac_boy> of course it ran alone many other times as the later-reofitted red laterns at both ends showed
22:11:26 <drac_boy> elukka .. so what sort of layout is it... an oval with station or well you know :)
22:13:27 <Elukka> i don't have an awful lot of space
22:13:32 <Elukka> and honestly most of it isn't done :/
22:13:37 <Elukka> i have the central mountain's basic shape down
22:13:43 <Elukka> and the tunnels are... functional
22:13:51 <Elukka> the spiral down probably won't exist :D
22:14:25 <drac_boy> actually thats rather interesting abit I'll sorta question two locomotive sheds?
22:15:11 <Elukka> i couldn't fit a roundhouse anywhere so i put a couple smaller sheds
22:15:29 <Elukka> well i could fit a roundhouse in the big bulging part but it'd fill up the table too bad
22:15:35 <Elukka> gotta strike a balance between amount of track and scenery
22:16:00 <drac_boy> elukka... well can I suggest an optional alternative?
22:16:22 <Elukka> apparently i've changed the town names and some other small stuff since that pic
22:16:25 <Elukka> but it's mostly the same
22:17:05 <drac_boy> take the green-located locomotive sheds out .. move the mainline switch a bit further to right .. then plop a mostly-homemade four tracks transfer table? (2 sheds facing west .. one east .. and the one eastward access track)
22:17:13 <drac_boy> don't know if it'll clash with the steam locomotives tho :)
22:17:56 <Elukka> i think it'd be a bit out of period plus i'd have trouble fitting it in
22:18:17 <Elukka> i'm going for a 60's setting
22:18:21 <drac_boy> some transfer tables did actually see steam locomotives but thats country-specific after all
22:19:01 <drac_boy> and on the opposite side: in usa, finding geeps sharing the same roundhouse turntable as steam locomotives wasn't too rare :p
22:19:37 <Elukka> early 20th century would be interesting too
22:19:43 <Elukka> but i like some of the diesels too much
22:20:06 <Elukka> modern i don't like that much
22:20:07 <drac_boy> elukka there is one thing I had been thinking about scratchbuilding for fun tho...
22:20:14 <Elukka> plus in the 60's i can still get away with shorter wagons
22:20:39 <Elukka> modern 4 axle coaches and such are just too long for my layout's curves
22:20:43 <Elukka> they'd work but they look bad
22:21:17 <drac_boy> what I want to try build ... is one of the two classes of battery trainsets that operated light but long branchline routes
22:21:20 <Elukka> you know i actually changed the main curve in the lower right of the main part of the layout to have gentler curves
22:21:30 <drac_boy> quite simple..they had a boxy shape .. the only curves would be a bit in the roof itself but thats easy to work with
22:21:47 <drac_boy> I never EVER can remember the class # for these tho :|
22:22:44 <Elukka> moved the switches off the curve, moved the locomotive depot, added some extra sidings
22:23:11 <drac_boy> and elukka...btw ... a battery train in the midst of steam/diesel would be rather amusing to say the least .. I mean could you imagine if you had a sound system for your layout? :P
22:23:13 <Elukka> the change in the curve doesn't look so significant from a topdown view but those switches were 360 mm radius
22:23:17 <Elukka> the current curve looks much better
22:23:33 <Elukka> the outer line is 515 mm at the tightest
22:23:38 <drac_boy> the steam would chuff off .. diesel making their usual grumbling .. but that one odd trainset just zoom off too quietly without much of a sound? :P
22:23:39 <Elukka> still tighter than i'd like but i just don't have the space
22:24:04 <Elukka> my locomotives do have sound :P
22:24:32 <drac_boy> elukka well a battery powered train only has the flange and motor humm noise .. and these are barely audible in real life? :P
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22:27:49 <drac_boy> elukka so .. you like to weather your trains?
22:28:04 <drac_boy> just curious from the dirt I noticed in that closeup photo
22:28:20 <drac_boy> any more train photos you can share? :)
22:28:47 <Elukka> closeup on the cab, that was before i weathered the rest
22:29:28 <Elukka> watercolor makes nice rust/worn paint patterns
22:40:44 <drac_boy> elukka either way I've got a bit of mix of marklins here too.. still working on ordering some more this month ... aside to clearing out the last major box of older usa trains I just hadn't liked anymore :)
22:41:04 <drac_boy> still thinking about one bemo order too.... or not...hard to say yet :)
22:41:15 <Elukka> i decided i'm gonna stop buying stuff until i get off my ass and actually work on the layout :P
22:42:11 <drac_boy> elukka heh well tbh I can't really do much when I have one steam locomotive, a small freight shunter, one old 2-car doubledeck wagonset, one restaurant car, and a few random freight wagons
22:42:21 <drac_boy> not really anything to make up a 'decent' train with at all :)
22:44:32 <drac_boy> elukka.. the one bemo train would be interesting tho....
22:46:40 <drac_boy> might be the only electric locomotive I'll have ... but still has siderods :)
22:47:05 <drac_boy> of course I might have to add a few more coaches tho .. one just seem silly
22:48:49 <Eddi|zuHause> that looks swiss
22:49:03 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause its rhb, what else :)
22:49:19 <Eddi|zuHause> so narrow gauge, how do you fit that in anywhere?
22:50:06 <drac_boy> I was already planning a semi-mountain layout ... so the marklin trains get most of the land and a bit of slope .. then theres a short (whether oval or point-to-point I still have to decide on yet) metre gauge section on the mountain
22:51:01 <drac_boy> going to have everything a bit covered in snow .. would save me having to do grass/rocks because its just all varying height of snow everywhere instead :P
22:51:11 <Eddi|zuHause> if i were to fit in narrow gauge in a layout, it would probably be a tram
22:51:25 <drac_boy> would still have to find out how to do some molds for the mountain rock faces tho but at least thats a much smaller thing to do
22:51:46 <drac_boy> mm I've thought a bit about towns but not too inclined
22:51:55 <drac_boy> it'll mostly be countrysides
22:53:36 <drac_boy> btw its more or less freelanced so I'm not too worried about if theres no real example of drg-served standard gauge platform sharing with metre gauge platform
22:53:59 <drac_boy> just as long as its not something too crazy such as a BR.05 showing up next to a lone BDe
22:54:16 * drac_boy wouldn't want to afford such a large express steam loco anyway
22:55:15 <drac_boy> they go for over $300 used ... don't know what new would cost :P
22:56:43 <drac_boy> a smaller express 2-6-0 with short bogie coaches meeting a rhb crocodile with 3-5 of its own coaches seem ok to me if its just for fun :)
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23:06:28 <Eddi|zuHause> btw, if there ever were a {Copenhagen,Warszaw}-Berlin-{Bern,Zürich} train, it would likely have a DB engine pulling it
23:08:19 <drac_boy> btw I had actually thought a bit about berlin-zurich trains but I'm not sure if I want to find some sleepers or not .... for now I'll just more or less consider 'local' trains
23:08:51 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, the overnight trains are Berlin-Bern
23:09:15 <Eddi|zuHause> er, i meant Basel
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23:21:25 <drac_boy> either way the reason I was ending up with marklin is because I just like the simplification that comes from the 3-rail ac system
23:21:35 <drac_boy> not to mention no polarity issues
23:21:46 <drac_boy> of course other buyers have their own ideas too
23:44:36 <drac_boy> either way there are actually some with marklin layouts running american trains on them
23:44:59 <drac_boy> after all marklin has always been selling ac F units ... and at least once in a while other locomotives too
23:45:11 <Elukka> i personally wouldn't go with märklin if i were to do an american layout
23:45:29 <Elukka> i am going with märklin currently because it's what i have and why not
23:45:30 <drac_boy> yeah I agree, it seem a little strange tbh .. not to mention limited choices of compactible freights too
23:45:34 <Elukka> but for american stuff the choice is so limited
23:46:02 <Elukka> for european stuff märklin has its perks and its downsides but for american trains two rail seems like the obvious choice
23:46:03 <drac_boy> at least with O scale its a different story :)
23:48:56 <Eddi|zuHause> with all the DC stuff i have, Märklin is somewhat out of the question
23:50:17 <Elukka> wagons are pretty easy to convert between systems
23:50:39 <Elukka> i have a bunch of brawa wagons
23:51:01 <Elukka> holy hell i'm happy the tanker runs fine with the DC wheels, i'm never going to even try to change those
23:51:11 <Elukka> the frame actually bent a bit when i changed the coupler
23:51:35 <Elukka> brawa looks better than märklin but it's really fragile
23:51:57 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see how "DC wheels" would be a problem at all
23:52:13 <Elukka> the flange measurements are different
23:52:17 <Eddi|zuHause> as long as you don't want lighting or stuff
23:52:21 <Elukka> sometimes it causes derailments on switches particularly with longer wagons
23:53:03 <Eddi|zuHause> but that's more a problem with track geometry
23:53:23 <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause btw there was one contentional model magazine on someone who had a ho scale shelf terminal-to-yard-and-back layout based on russia railroad and he mentioned that most of the locomotives were scratchbuilt as almost noone sold them in boxed form
23:53:29 <Eddi|zuHause> 2.5mm or 2.1mm profile
23:53:53 <drac_boy> seeing that I have rarely ever found any russia model trains even in this year I guess he still had a point
23:54:23 <drac_boy> elukka btw about brawa...funny thing is I have been thinking about ordering some wagonsets and maybe even one locomotive from them :)
23:54:36 <drac_boy> cost isn't much more than the non-brawa alternatives after all
23:54:37 <Elukka> they are the best looking wagons i have
23:54:53 <Elukka> i'd love their locomotives but they're just too expensive for me
23:55:04 <drac_boy> elukka for storage I was thinking of foam-padded "tubes" so I'm not worried about details (I may be adding some of my own too after all) :)
23:55:31 <Elukka> i have a bunch of others too
23:55:33 <drac_boy> elukka...heh .. one of the locomotive I'm looking at is about like $160 ... which isn't far off from the cost for most well made non-brass europe locomotives :)
23:55:42 <Elukka> i was going to order a car or two to see how well they played together with märklin stuff
23:55:47 <Elukka> i ended up with six...
23:55:58 <drac_boy> mm nice wagonset there .. matched with the brakecab too :)
23:56:34 <Elukka> still need to do some loads for them
23:56:53 <Elukka> i did some for the märklin coal cars i have
23:57:34 <Elukka> piece of cardboard, crumpled paper underneath to hold it up against the top edges, sand, glue, paint
continue to next day ⏵
